261. Alexis Leigh | Pain is a Portal to Beauty: Stunning Discoveries After Loss, Psychedelics, and Feeling It All

Hello, Book Thinkers family, and welcome to our personal development podcast, Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books. During each episode, we interview one of the world's top authors, and as a listener, you can expect to discover new books, new mentors, and new resources that you can use to achieve more and live better. In today's episode, we have the pleasure to interview Alexis Lee, author of Pain Is a Portal to Beauty: Stunning Discoveries After Loss, Psychedelics, and Feeling It All. Alexis is an investment banker turned seeker. She brings a unique blend of grounded insight and soulful storytelling to her debut memoir, where she traces her journey through grief, Inner work, and spiritual awakening. With warmth, curiosity, and honesty, Alexis invites us to rethink what it means to heal, to feel, and to live more fully. In this episode, you'll learn how slowing down and noticing your internal world can lead to profound breakthroughs, why authentic gratitude must be rooted in truth, and how facing even the subtlest discomforts can unlock deeper self-love, Healing and joy. Now get ready to learn and enjoy this incredible conversation with Alexis Lee.

Alexis and Luke, welcome to the Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books Podcast. So excited to chat with you today. And my first question is really a reflection that I'd like to— my first question is really a quote that I'd like to read from page 1 of your book and have you respond to. The quote is, if you die today, your life will have been a tragedy. Talk to us about that moment in time, Alexis, where you heard this voice and what did you feel like?

Yeah, this was the summer of 2020, and I was walking in the woods while my son was napping one day. And, you know, I think just listening to classical music, maybe a little with a sorrowful, sorrowful bent to it. And I heard that voice. And just in an instant, it resonated so deeply. So I just immediately collapsed and, you know, fell into tears because I was so deeply sad and lonely. And I didn't, I didn't have the clarity to acknowledge it until I heard that voice. And, you know, to be clear, I don't know I didn't know whose voice it was. It wasn't from outside myself. It was from inside. And it just finally gave me the chance to feel the grief that I was feeling, just not strong enough or clear enough to acknowledge until that moment.

I'm curious, did you— had you heard this voice before, or is it something that was like brand new to you? And if so, like, why did you— why did you listen on that particular day? Was it just super overwhelming that you couldn't Ignore it?

Exactly. I mean, no, I'd never heard anything like this before. And it just struck so deeply to the truth of my experience that it was, you know, I think in the book I mentioned it was like, it was like when a kid is hurt and they can't cry until they see their mom and dad and there's safety. It was like I could finally feel supported in acknowledging the truth. Like, it was almost like I wasn't alone. So when I was alone, it was too much to feel. But whatever voice this was, was in community with me as we both looked at that truth.

That truth being the grief that you were experiencing. What was it about your life at that time that didn't allow you to communicate about it with other people? Why was this voice the first time that you felt like you could walk with somebody else in grief?

You know, I was in therapy and certainly aware of plenty of parts of my life that I wish were different. But I think it really was the external picture, right? I had a really wonderful husband. He's just the best guy in the world. And I had a beautiful, healthy son who was 4 years old. And I had a lovely family. And I had a good career, especially at that time when the world felt like it was crumbling. I had so much to be grateful for. And to me, the messaging was that you should be grateful. And so I didn't feel the freedom to feel the pain that I did actually have underneath all of that. And so this voice kind of pierced through that external picture to say, no, this is not the life that you're meant for. And you shouldn't be grateful for this. There's more for you to uncover here.

Gratitude is a really big theme, not only in my life, but on this podcast. And I think what you're highlighting is a level There's a fine line with gratitude that we don't talk about, which is underneath the gratitude there can be shame or guilt or a feeling of uneasiness that shouldn't just be washed over with gratitude, that it should be acknowledged. And I'd like you to talk about, if you can, how gratitude can be toxic for people sometimes and what your experience was like. Can you go a little bit deeper on that?

Yeah. I mean, I think that there's kind of— I think the gratitude I felt was for what— that I tried to feel was for what other people told me I should feel grateful for, right? Whereas what I— the gratitude I actually feel is something that warms my heart, that, you know, it's authentic, honest gratitude. And I was trying to feel gratitude for a life that I actually didn't feel grateful for. So It's not that I wouldn't be grateful for the food on my table or for my family and health and all those things, but it was an untruth. It was saying, I am so grateful for how happy I am when I'm actually not happy. So I think that it's not— certainly, I'm not saying don't feel gratitude. I feel so much gratitude. But there's an honesty that needs to accompany the gratitude to be authentic.

Yeah.

And an honesty then therefore that can accompany the more painful emotions that we feel alongside it. Like you're saying, it's not one or the other. It's feeling it all and holding these things simultaneously. So for me, there was a suppression of the sadness and the grief. And that didn't work alongside gratitude because it wasn't honest.

I think you hit on a really amazing point there, which is gratitude has to be rooted in honesty. And so much of— so many of us use gratitude almost as a band-aid to ignore these feelings. I— we have a practice at Book Thinkers where we have this channel on our Slack that we have our daily gratitude. Every day we say 3 things we're grateful for. And there's been plenty of times that I had put gratitude in there and I wasn't really feeling it. I was just like, oh, I'm grateful for this, I'm grateful for that, I'm grateful for this, because it wasn't rooted in any truth. So I think you hit on such a beautiful point because especially, I don't know, the world at large and self-help world is just be like, oh, grateful, be grateful, be grateful, look at all you have, be grateful, be grateful. But like you said, it's really hard if it isn't anchored in truth. So what is your advice, or what would be your advice to your younger self to anchor that gratitude in truth quicker?

Well, um, I mean, there's so much in there. I think There's also the kind of like, well, why do we need it to be quick? Can we sit with the part of us that needs it to be quick? And, you know, just really just— I think sitting with the question, it's so valuable to slow down and to really sit with the different pieces. But also, you know, we find— we just find our way. And so I'll tell you about something that happened recently. We were talking about this just before the show that— I got feedback from a schoolteacher that I had sent my book to with a lot of genuine gratitude for the loving presence that she was in my life when I was young. And she really, it was a sweet reconnection and she sent a lot of lovely feedback about the book, but she also told me that I should not curse because I'm better than that. And it was really triggering to me. And so I swam around in the story a bit, like, who, how dare she, a little bit of that kind of energy, like to come out of nowhere and criticize who I am. And, but then I found my way pretty quickly to a loving place where I'm judging her, she's judging me, and I can have compassion for both of us carrying that judgment because the judgment is not a loving, beautiful experience. It doesn't feel good to carry judgment. So I came to a place of acceptance of both her and me for the feelings that we had. But I was still pissed. So I jumped too quick to the loving acceptance place. And I had to go back and say, okay, I'm not hearing a part of me. How can I slow down? So I kind of wrote, I was writing notes to my part to say, hey, can you tell me more about like, why is this so triggering for you? And I had this huge revelation that this part felt humiliated. You know, we haven't talked about the underlying trauma for me, but my mom was a drug addict and ultimately died when I was 12. And this part felt so exposed to the whole world that my mother didn't love me enough to stay. And she was humiliated by this. And I didn't know this. This was because it was— that was too much to carry, right? So I buried that so deeply. And I didn't know this until 2 weeks ago when this teacher sent me this thing that said I shouldn't curse. And so this is— I just tell that as sometimes we have these— not sometimes, probably most of the times we have these kind of meandering paths where you start here and you say, okay, I would like to feel gratitude. But part of you is like, I don't want I don't feel gratitude. And you go, okay, I'll go, I'll go sit with that part and try to understand what they're trying to tell me. So each of all these experiences have something to offer. We just slow down enough to try to listen. And sometimes it very much is, is going straight to that loving place. And that's, and that you're ready to be there. But sometimes there's more work to do before we can, can settle there.

And you highlight such a good point too, which is patience on your journey. Right? So many of us, especially in today's day and age with social media and Amazon 1-hour shipping, like, We want everything instantly, and we forget that we're humans and we have to process process things in our own time. I've often in the past beaten myself up. I'm like, I'm thirty years old. I should have this. I should have this. You know, should should should should should should. But the journey is the journey, and the process is the process. Like it has to just take the time it takes. Do you find yourself feeling like, oh, I need to just rush all this and be perfectly healed? Do you think you'll ever get to a point where you feel? complete and full and healed and you don't have to do any more work? Or do you think that you're going to have to continue on this journey of work and healing?

Well, first I'll say I'm as impatient as they come. So I constantly have to remind myself that trees don't grow to their magnificence overnight, right? This is stuff that just, that takes time. So nature, I find, is such a beautiful reminder of those, those kinds of concepts. But I also, it has, I have become more patient. And I think part of it is that I've made, you know, I've seen the progress that I've made. I'm showing up differently in the world. So there is not a destination in the sense that we're done, but to me, there is enough transformation that you grow kind of appreciative of the process. And you say, okay, when another wave comes up, I know what this leads to. And so I'm really grateful for this. One of the spiritual teachers that I have, you know, read and spent some time with is Dr. Sue Morter. Her book is The Energy Codes. And I mentioned that in, in the book. And she talks about these periods of anchoring, where we really have to go, you know, go quiet and go into these deep emotions. And then there's the expressive creativity that can grow from that. But you have to root down deep to grow more. And so this is this really beautiful cycle. And so now when I go into a period of anchoring, I go, okay, this is where I'm caring for the land, right? This is where I'm planting the seeds and the roots are growing more deeply. And then by the end of it, I get pretty impatient. I'm like, are we done with the anchoring yet? So, and then I can notice that as a part and say, oh, I hear you. I know you are really ready to be past this. So for me, there's kind of, you know, again, there's all of it. But I will mention too, David Hawkins in Letting Go, he mentions that It is kind of a volume thing, that if you've repressed a lot of emotions, you're going to have a lot of emotions that will need to come out. And so there you go. So the more that you, um, the more you have repressed, the more volume you probably actually will need to work through. And, um, anyway, I could talk for all of this about, you know, about all this for a million hours, but I'll let you go.

Yeah, I'm I'm happy that you talked about you're as impatient as they come, because in this world of spirituality, sometimes it does look like certain people are perfect and they're talking in such a way, it's so abstract that it's hard for somebody who's not there yet to understand and to resonate with what you're saying.

Sure.

I mean, sitting with the difficult pieces, swimming around with the story, anchoring Authentic gratitude, not just normal gratitude. These are concepts that you need to play around with for a long time, I think, to fully understand sometimes.

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And so, Alexis, for the person in the audience today that hasn't done a lot of the inner work, they haven't had any experiences with psychedelics, they're the version of you pre-if you die today, your life will have been a tragedy 2020. What message do you have for them about your journey? And how do you speak to that person that hasn't gone through everything yet?

Well, you know, I think to try to find some space for exactly just where you are. And that's something that I think has been so relieving to me is that I just— and why I reacted so strongly to the cursing, like, I get to curse. We all get to be exactly where we are. And the more that I have gone through this, the more I'm even resistant lately to the self-help stuff where it's like, ah, but everything is pointing to I'm not, I need to be somewhere else. And the most love I've been able to access is when I just accept myself exactly where I am. And that's what psychedelics do, right? They take us into our bodies and to help us access the wisdom in our bodies. So if I can be where I am and love myself for where I am, that's where beauty will start to unfold. And I think that's the— one time I was talking with my ayahuasca hero about, I was in a really busy time and I didn't know if I should slow it down or if I should be with the busy. You know, I was like, what's the lesson here? Am I supposed to figure out how to cope with this differently or am I supposed to stop being busy? And he said, or you could just sit with the question. And there was something to me that was so relieving in that moment where it's like, oh, I don't have to know. I just get to to be here. The trick is that if we haven't done that internal work, being here can be really hard. And so that's where having a lot of love for yourself to say, okay, as long as I start to accept myself as I am, and as I start to settle in, even that will start to, you know, then I'm going to start to tune into things that maybe I haven't wanted to see. And that's where having whatever support you need, whether it's a friend to hold your hand, whether, you know, for me, I go on walks and listen to music. And there's this kind of embrace that I feel with that. But how can you find the support that you need? You know, my partner is a very, very hard worker, an incredible athlete. And so, I feel like I always have to be stronger and keep up with him, which I cannot. But he also does things to make it through. So, if you're out and it's a really hot run, that doesn't mean you don't get to have cold water. It doesn't mean, you know, like, go do the hard stuff, but have the pieces around you that help you get through it. So it's not just muscling through, it's, it's facing the hard with all of the things that you need that help, you know, to make it digestible and not overwhelming.

Yeah, I mean, that makes so much sense. I think it's like the, the getting an accurate view of reality, and I feel like psychedelics help you do that. They help you see the picture a lot clearer from the outside, and it's like, oh, I'm looking at this thing. Because I think we get, we get lost in our stories, right? We get lost in the, the stories of our life and what we think our life is and all these things. So we we get muddled up and we don't have that accurate view of reality. So those things can help give you that, give you that space, which is beautiful. I want to talk to you a little bit about getting into this whole psychedelic journey and going from— I mean, in your book, you talk about growing up in your Christian church, which is really fascinating to me because I've— I grew up Christian and in religion and everything else. And I've had a lot of conflicting feelings about this whole thing my entire life. And as I've gone on my own psychedelic journeys, I've kind of separated myself from the stories of religion. But I'm also curious because you grew up very against things like drugs. I mean, you were part of the D.A.R.E. program, all those things. Like, you were like, no, I don't want to— I don't want anything to do with it. Drinking, drugs, absolutely not. So I'm curious how this Christian girl went from that to, to doing psychedelics. And maybe we can get a little bit more— I may be a little bit more granular, which is, did you have a lot of conflicting feelings when you were entering into this world of psychedelic therapy?

No. And that's where, you know, my— when I was working through the book with my editors, you know, one of them was like, I want to hear all of the things that you resisted, all the things you had to work through. And I was like, oh, there really wasn't much. And which is surprising, like, you know, again, as you're saying, with the background that I had. But by that time, you know, one of the things that psychedelics does to you, or a traumatic event that, you know, as an adult, grief work, all these things is they kind of, they start to break down your defenses, right? You stop avoiding what you don't want to be true because you've seen that it is true. And so for me, hearing that voice in the woods broke me down. And all of a sudden, I'm losing the marriage that I don't, that I never, ever, ever wanted to lose, the husband that I loved deeply, the life that I envisioned, you know, all sorts of things were falling apart anyway. So by the time psychedelics really came to be a possibility for me, I was defenseless. You know, I didn't have those things that I think for a lot of people whose lives are going pretty okay, you know, it's kind of like, why, why go rock the boat? My boat was rocked. And so it was— there was not that kind of resistance that, um, that would have been there at a different time in my life, right? At a time when I was really not feeling so in touch with the grief and the loneliness and the lack of fulfillment. I mean, having that, your if you die today, really takes you to the deathbed scenario of like, am I good with how things are? And it just wasn't true for me. So I didn't have so much to disentangle. But also, I think this is kind of counterintuitive, but I think that not having considered drugs, like I just, I was just, not part of my consciousness forever. So I hadn't read articles about drugs, and I hadn't read books about drugs. And I had, like, I didn't, you know, inform myself about drugs so much, because it just wasn't even a consideration that by the time I got there, I actually, I also didn't have those kinds of things to dismantle, because I hadn't participated in, you know, conversations and idea, you know, frameworks in that area, if that makes any sense.

Yeah, perfect sense. And I think too, what's interesting about psychedelics is it's like considered drugs, but I loved how, um, the reframing of plant medicine, like it's, it's medicine for your soul. It's medicine for who you are. It's interesting because I actually went to an ayahuasca ceremony, um, pretty recently. And when I came into this, we had a temple in this room and I was just, I was scared out of my mind because it was, it was like the opposite of everything that I grew up learning. And it was like, wow, this is, I'm not supposed to be here. What have I done? Why am I here? Like I'm in this place and there's a, there's a shaman. With, uh, you know, he had a— he had this, uh, wolf costume on, and I was like, what am I doing right now? But, you know, as you go on these journeys, you realize, oh wow, there's these, these things that we, we have a lot of fears around, or we have all these preconceived notions, are so different once you actually experience them.

Mm-hmm.

So I think it's really— it was really brave that you went into them even though you had this, like, this maybe aversion when you were younger, but you were just like, hey, I'm ready. And the fact that you listened to that voice when you heard it is really powerful as well. What is some advice maybe that you could give some people for that are maybe in a similar place where their life is seemingly perfect or that looks perfect on the outside, but deep inside they just have this, this feeling that there's more? What would you tell them? Like, where do they start? Where do they begin?

Um, you know, so I, I don't love to give advice because I just so honor everyone's experience to be so unique. But I think if someone's really starting from scratch, I mean, journaling was a very important part of my time. You know, just to— I think journaling, and if people haven't learned about internal family systems where we have these different parts of ourselves, because I think for a while it was kind of like there's the hurt part of me and there's the happy part of me. Like there's these kind of two pieces. And what I found is it's so— for me, it's so much more nuanced where there's lots and lots of different parts. And They might be opposed. You know, like when we're really struggling with something, it's— it can be like, oh, what's wrong with me? And when you get down to a deeper level, it's like, oh, I've got this part that was really scared because of this experience I had when I was 8, and I have this part that's really, you know, frustrated because of an experience I had when I was 10. And these— they're both needing something. So to try to quiet and slow down, I mean, that's one thing that I've done. I don't— I've not been doing medicine work This year, or sorry, I have done medicine work this year, but the last time I went, the medicine told me that I didn't need to come back. And I don't know if that's forever. I'm very—I was very sad to get that message because I really am so grateful for these experiences. But I've been trying to see what can I do in my life as just a human with no, you know, no help from these celestial medicines. How can I access this? And so what I do is. You know, because leading up to ayahuasca, you— your diet changes. You quiet— you know, your diet gets quiet. It's partly so that you can, you know, make sure there's no bad interactions with the medicine, but partly just to take the flavors out and start to, to slow that down, quiet that down. And, and I'll stop watching any shows, and I'll— or listening to podcasts even, um, in just no outside noise. And try to limit my time with other people. So what I, what I've done is I've tried to basically mimic that without the medicine. So I'll take a week that I can make as quiet as I can, and then that gives these parts a chance. They're going to start talking to you, and it's not going to be fun because you're going to be like, but I want to have that, you know, sugary thing, or I want to watch a show. And, and what I've learned— I, I read Healing the Trauma— Healing the Fragmented Cells by— of— sorry, Healing the Fragmented Selves of Trauma Survivors by Janina Fisher. And she talks about how our coping mechanisms are so quick that you don't even know what you're trying to avoid because they're like, we're just, we're not going to even make you worry about it, you know. So you immediately turn on that show or you immediately grab that something to eat or whatever it is. And so when you slow down and take those coping mechanisms off the table, then your parts are going to get a chance to start to get through to you. And again, this is a time where it's like they'll have something to say and it's not— there's a reason why we avoid it, because it's painful. So having Adequate support, whatever you need to, to do that, but slow down, journal, quiet your life enough to start to hear some of these voices is what I would say.

Well, while you don't want to give advice, I think that hearing about your experience, which is the whole purpose of this book, might give somebody a path or a mentor or inspiration or a nudge to make a different decision and start some of that work. I think a beautiful through line of the conversation so far and of your book is this idea of slowing down. I have a tattoo on my left wrist in, in ancient Greek. It's an ancient Greek word. It says ataraxia, which can translate to stillness or slowing down. And I try to use this tattoo if I ever feel a negative emotional response to something. I can look at the tattoo and slow down and focus on my breath so that I don't default to one of those other coping mechanisms that you talk about or respond in a negative way. And in this spirit of slowing down, I also wanted to share that, uh, I've been doing a lot of fasting over the last couple of years. I try to do one 72-hour fast, water only, for 3 days every month so that my body can point out the things that I need to pay attention to, and I could check those vices at the door. Is that something you've experimented with, Alexis?

A little bit. I, I haven't done it. As much as you have. But I've found it to be really meaningful, both in the quiet and letting things come up that I wouldn't have heard. But also, you know, so much of my book too, I think, is touching on when I wasn't trying these things, when I was avoiding my fear and my pain, I internalized that as I am weak. And so when I've done fasting, when I've done some of these things, it helps me understand, oh, I've got more, I can get through this, right? So facing your pain, Facing your fears, taking bold action, stepping outside your comfort zone—all of these things to me help me see oh I am stronger than I thought I was, and that's a really amazing feeling after feeling victim for my whole life. Right? To understand how much power I have to affect my life, to change my situation. And so anyway, I just mentioned that as kind of a side note of fasting where it's helped me realize other times be like oh I'm hungry and kind of the scarcity mindset. I might die if I don't get food. Right away. And now it's like, no, I'm good. You know, like, I know that I can handle so much more than I thought I could before. So I don't know if that's, if that's ever been a part of fasting and some of these more difficult, um, practices for you, but that was a side effect for me.

Yeah, it, it is. It has been. For somebody in the audience who is listening to today's conversation or watching it and they say, I would love to experience a lot of this inner work.

Mm-hmm.

And, but I just, the minute they shut this podcast off, they're sucked back into the chaos of social media and divisive news and a toxic relationship that's hanging on by a thread, but it's not bad enough to leave. So they're still tolerating it and they don't love their work. It's just the average American experience, really. How, you know, what, what is, and I, advice is the wrong word, but maybe you can invite somebody. What is, an action that somebody can participate in over the next couple of days when things do slow down and they have a chance to bring more awareness to the present moment? Because I do think it's just tough to fight against all of the inputs that we have and slow things down.

Yeah, I mean, I think what I would say is to shut down the inputs as much as you can. And that doesn't mean forever, right? I mean, this, this can be these, these periods of time. There are times when I need to shut down inputs, or, you know, we go through these waves in growth. And one of the things, one of the examples that I have in my mind is, you know, for a long time I tolerated not great treatment from other people, but I didn't even know. I didn't even— I wasn't even conscious of that. It just was my experience as kind of just being merged with it. And then at some point I realized, oh, I don't like how this person's treating me, and that doesn't feel good. So I'm now seeing the treatment, and I'm seeing it, and I don't like it, but I'm not doing anything about it. And then at some point I say, oh, I can set boundaries. And so that takes some practice, but I start to set boundaries, and that's feeling really good because I'm taking care of myself, and I'm seeing how I can craft my world. And then at some point you find so much love in your heart, and you, you settle into a place where you don't need the boundaries as much because you have— all you have is compassion For the other, you know, it's like you move through these different stages. So I would say if somebody's really in the thick of it, they could try shutting off some of those inputs for a while because you may not, you may go back to it, but at the beginning you cannot hear if, if there's so much noise. You just have to create that quiet environment. And I'm not saying in any particular way, but you can lessen your social media or shut it down. You can say, I'm not going to look at the news for a week. You know, I'm, you can start to pay attention to every time I look at the phone and say, oh, how did that make me feel? Did it Did I feel okay? Or did that make me feel, you know, sadder after looking at that, after looking at social media? So I think that there's just— there's all sorts of things you can do, but there's also— the first step could just be to try to start to notice. How did I feel after that conversation in that toxic relationship? How did I feel after I tried this new thing? How did I feel after I watched the news? How did I feel after I looked, checked my Instagram? And so maybe, maybe I guess I would slow down and say noticing is the first step, and that would be a lovely first step. Just to be, just to start to say, oh, I'm watching this. And I'm, and that will start to feel good to these parts who feel completely, you know, ignored because we don't even know they're there because we're so overwhelmed by the world.

Yeah, it's so easy. I noticed when I did the dieta, dieta, dieta before ayahuasca, it was, I realized like one of the things that I was very much, very addicted to, which is caffeine. And it's something like, So simple, and I always like the story was like, oh, I'm not addicted. You know, it's not that big of a deal. Like I can go without it. And then you stop for two days. You get the splitting headaches, and you realize I really need this thing. But when you sit with it, when you notice, you're like, well, what? Why do I feel like I need this? What am I? What am I avoiding? You sit just for ten. You know, it doesn't have to be long, but two minutes with that feeling of why do I feel like I'm avoiding something? Well, I'm avoiding this headache, or I'm avoiding that, and then it just goes deeper. Why? Why? And you just get deeper and deeper. So I think it's such a beautiful point just to pause and notice. And it doesn't take much. Like, I think often we think that we have to have this huge meditation practice or we have to go into this all of a sudden change everything. And like, it's like running, you know, we think that if we want to be a runner, we have to go out, run 5 miles. But it's like, no, you have to just start with half a mile. Start with half a mile, go slow, and then build upon that. And it's the same with this stuff, I believe, with healing. It's just take those moments. And that's such beautiful advice. Just stop with the scrolling just for a little bit. Notice how you feel. Yeah. So I really love that, that you highlight that. And I think your story is such a powerful and poignant reminder of that because you had many moments that you kind of went back and then came back to the healing and then went back, you know, oh, why is this bothering me? What has been, um, I guess the biggest change— what has been like the biggest change between you when you started this journey and you now? And I'm sure there's a lot of things, but what is like maybe the— maybe one or two things?

I want to answer that, but can I go back to one thing just from the last piece?

Please do.

Which is just that, you know, I always really didn't get meditation. I was really annoyed by spirituality. Like, I don't come from a spirituality background. And so I always felt like I was doing it wrong. And so when, when I, you know, if I feel like the old me would be really annoyed with the me that just talked, because it's like, okay, that's easy for you to say a little bit, you know. So I think the other piece I just kind of going back to the acceptance of like, if I'm saying, if we want to try turning off social media, but there's a part of us that says, no, I don't want to, then you can say, oh, I totally hear that you don't want to. Like that alone, that's the work, right? Is saying, you know, there's a part of you that's like really, maybe underneath all that is really scared about being disconnected from family and friends. You know, like there's what, it's not the shutting it down and then is this the separate process? Then you'll start listening to the parts. Your parts are going to start talking to you every step of the way. And every step of the way you get to say, I totally get it. Like, that makes so much sense. I really honor that, right? Like, it, it is every step you have the chance to see what your reaction is, and it can be a pissed reaction, and you say, yes, that's the reaction, right? That's what, that's where we are. I totally get it. I'm, I'm sorry I didn't see that before. You know, whatever it is, these, this, every moment our parts will give us a chance to get to know them more if we, if we're willing to hear them out. And so it actually feels quite good because it's not, It's not I should be more spiritual or more whatever than I am. It's I get to be exactly where I am, and we get to say, yes, you do. And that feels— to me, that felt so relieving that I wasn't this outcast who couldn't figure this out. It's like, no, I'm exactly where I should be. Isn't that incredible? That feels so good. So the biggest change from before to now— oh goodness. I don't— I mean, that's a big question.

Uh, and if you don't have an answer, that's okay too. Like, it is a big question. I just— I like, you know, I started this, this healing journal journey a long time ago, and I always had this idea in my head that I would reach this pinnacle of, oh, I'm going to be this perfect enlightened being or whatever, or perfectly happy all the time. And it's really interesting because for me, it's been this experience of, oh, you know what? I just— the biggest change is I get a little bit better at being a little bit more compassionate with myself and loving to myself. And that excels other areas of my life. It's like I was sitting in traffic the other day in my car, and this is a common experience, but I literally had like this visceral reaction to this. Like I was— and I've never really sat with it. I've gotten better at being patient in the car, but I've never really sat with the feeling. Reading through your book literally has helped me do this, by the way.

Mm-hmm.

So I was sitting and I was like, I have this like sour feeling in my stomach right now. I feel like I'm running late. I didn't have any like thing that I was late for and none of that, but I was like, I have this sour feeling. Like, why do I have this? And I just sat with it. I was sitting at a light. I just closed my eyes for like 2 seconds and then I started to cry and I was like, why am I crying about this? This is insane. But literally, and then it's crazy, but on this drive I literally was just like crying and screaming a little bit about this feeling that I had. And then when I got back home, I was journaling about it, but it opened— the difference between me before and me now is that just like I'm recognizing, noticing these feelings, and then exploring them a little bit. It's like, oh, why do I feel that way? Why do I have this sour feeling when I'm sitting in traffic and there's nothing wrong right now in my life? I'm not in a rush for anything, but I feel rushed. So why is that there? So, um, anyway, that's just my personal experience with these things. And I loved how your book— I said this, um, before we hit record, but your book really helped me see different areas of my life like that, that I was like, oh man, I'm just, I'm really reacting here. And it's encouraged me in a big way to just sit with those emotions. So I thank you for that. Thank you for that gift.

I'm so glad. Well, I mean, and I each, I feel like I just continue to go into new phases where you're like, oh, now, you know, like, again, is the work ever done? I guess not in the sense that there's just all, of course there's infinite stuff to know. So like, there will always be something more to uncover. But one of the things that's happened for me recently, I was— is, and of course, it's incremental. I mean, all throughout, all throughout my time with psychedelics, they've told me to bring my energy back to me, to let go of other people's burdens, to not send my healing outward, to bring my healing back to me. And my whole life, I've been certainly from the Christianity perspective, but the way my family was like, how can I help other people? And of course, with my mom dying, it's how can I save other people? There's this urgency to you know, not everything, not let everything go to shit. So, um, it has been my practice to be so outwardly focused. And what I have learned is the more that I bring my energy back to me and take care of myself, the more I'm releasing this pain, the more space I have for love in, in my heart and in my body. And that means the more excess love that I have to share with others. Like, it just spills out. And what I would do before is I would help others because I was scared or sad, like I would help others out of my pain. And now I'm helping others out of, out of just from a loving place. It's a very different way to serve. And I've just seen in, you know, social circumstances where before I'd go and I'd be talking to someone and I felt like I had to hold their burdens and, and then I'm kind of— they're knotted up wherever they are and I'm knotted up. And I've very recently had more of the experience of, oh, I don't have to hold that. And then what happens just naturally is that I'm present and loving and just kind of peaceful. And that is a, that's a gift to me, certainly. And it's a gift to them. Whereas before I couldn't give them anything because I was so knotted up by what I perceived to be their pain. So that's something that's, that's opened up more recently for me is just a further shedding of holding other people's stuff, which lets me be more of an empty vessel for love to flow through.

So beautiful. And Nick, I'll let you go in a minute, but I just wanted— one of my favorite quotes by Ram Dass is, I can do nothing— I'm gonna mess it up a little bit, but it's like, I can do nothing better for you than work on myself.

Mm-hmm.

You can do nothing for me but work on yourself. And that always reminds me of this invitation. The more I work on myself, the more love I give myself, the more I can give that to others because it's coming from a full place and not an empty place.

Right.

Learning. But that's a beautiful takeaway. And I think on, you know, we talked a little bit about is the journey over? Alexis, you said you were told, hey, I'm, you know, you were told sort of you don't need to come back to me anymore. And Luke and I talk about psychedelics and healing and personal development all of the time. And there is a metaphor that I stumbled across recently. It was on a podcast. And the host was talking through a biblical lens, actually. So the metaphor was about the Bible, but I think you could use the same metaphor that I'm about to share with psychedelics or healing. And that's that it operates kind of like a water fountain where each time you walk up to the fountain and you push the little button, there will be more water to consume, but you can fill yourself up and you can go about your day and you can come back and access that water fountain again whenever you feel like you need to. The water will never run out. There's always going to be more work to do, more healing to do, more inner exploration, more personal development, more whatever, fill in the blank. But that you can get enough and then go on and be present and peaceful. And then if you feel a little thirsty, you can always go back. So I think that's a great metaphor. I did, before we wrap up, want to highlight an aspect of your book that provides maybe a little bit more contrast for the conversation we're having, which has been really deep and meaningful and serious, which is definitely a big part of your book, Alexis. But talk to us about the first experience you had with psychedelics. You thought it was psilocybin, but it actually wasn't. And this adds a little bit of humor, I think, to the conversation.

Yeah, I mean, this is where, you know, I said earlier I didn't have a lot of resistance to psychedelics, and I, I do think I have you know, a sense for whether situations are safe. Like, that's just something that I've always kind of had. And so my guide was amazing. I knew I could trust her. I knew that I could trust the process. So I thought we were doing psilocybin because I didn't know there were multiple types of psychedelics. And we're in there, and I'm blissful. And I said something about psilocybin. And she said, you're not on psilocybin, you're on molly. And I was like, what? Because I— and I'm obviously, I'm a sharer, as I have written this book and I'm talking to you guys. I told everybody I was doing mushrooms that day. So, um, I was like, I have to send out a newsletter. So yes, there are some times when, uh, there's been, you know, a lot. I mean, it was such a beautiful first ceremony anyway, so having, having a silly mistake like that, a silly safe mistake like that was was a good thing to, to kick it off.

Yeah, I, I came from a, I came from a very similar situation where when I was growing up, the idea of doing drugs or plant medicine in any capacity was just not even on my radar. And so I made a silly, unsafe mistake with my first experience, which was I was 21 years old and I had done a little bit of research on psilocybin because I was following Tim Ferriss at the time and I was falling in love with a lot of his teachings, and he talked about being a guinea pig and just experiencing all of what life has to offer. And so I had a friend in the office at the company I used to work for who just said, yeah, I can get mushrooms. And he hadn't done them in like 20 years. And so he just brought over this big bag of mushrooms and we each ate half the bag and we had no idea what we were doing. I consumed way too much in a very unsafe environment, and I had a great at the end of the day, a great experience because to quote Ram Dass, I think that sometimes with psychedelics, if you've never experienced them, no explanation is possible. But if you have, no explanation is necessary. Sometimes the difference between pre and post psychedelic experience, whatever the psychedelic is. And so I can contribute to this conversation a little bit. I haven't gone as deep as either of the two of you have. But there can be humorous moments during this healing journey or during this inner self-exploration and discovery. And I think that's an important component to add to this conversation too.

Yeah. And I would say that, you know, like, I didn't like stand-up comedy before I started doing psychedelics and doing all this deep grief work. Like, it is such a beautiful balance to doing this deep work is having so much fun and having, you know, so much beauty in your life. And I mean, I think I laugh more than I— I know I laugh more than I ever have in my life. I've had I have more joy and more humor in my life than ever before. So that's the relieving thing is that there's— we kind of— it's like, you know what pain feels like. So you know a little bit what you're trying to avoid, but you kind of can't imagine the goodness that's coming. And so that's where, you know, I wish people the courage to face a little bit here and there because you'll get, you'll get some of that goodness coming up. It's not, it's not all hard. Um, and the hard ultimately becomes something that you hold differently because it leads to such goodness.

Well, as we wrap up, and, and Luke, plenty of space to wrap up, up to wrap us up as well, but I'd like to share that one of my favorite takeaways from your experience is that sometimes it is in the nothingness that you find your way to healing, and that, and you do use your marriage As an example, sometimes it's not so bad that you have a chance to leave. And so you tolerate an imperfect situation that does bother you, but not so much that you have the courage to do anything about it. It's not so bad that you're forced to leave. And so there are a lot of those experiences in all of our lives. We tolerate things that aren't so bad, you know, they bother us every single day, but they're not so bad that we want to pay attention to them. And I think your book is an invitation. To have the courage to go a little bit deeper, to hold space for the things that we're not happy about and heal them. And so I wanted to thank you for that.

Yeah, my pleasure.

All right, Luke, bring us home.

Yeah, I love this, um, on page 144 of your book, and I think this sums up the book really, really well as far as what you'll get out of it. And also I think it sums up this conversation pretty well too. And I'll just read this and then we can, uh, we can— I'll ask A couple last questions. We will keep doing what we are doing until we're tired of doing it. And when we continue to resist change, to resist facing our pain, we will create more painful circumstances that will trigger us again and give us another opportunity to face our pain. And it's so beautiful because it's so true. The, the more you resist it, the more it'll come up, and it'll come up again and again and again until you decide It's time to, it's time to listen to that voice. It's time to, to face this thing. And your story is a beautiful and poignant reminder of that. So thank you so much for your time today. I would love, um, for you just to end it with, uh, where can people go to find out more about you? Of course, we'll link all those things in the show notes, but where can they go and what can they do?

Yeah, I'm, I mean, my website is alexislee.com and the book is for sale in all the various outlets. So that's where I am. And, you know, this is the first podcast, and I'm so delighted to have the chance to do it with you guys. But I imagine there will be some more, some more of that coming. This is just the— this is the debut. So we're on this journey together.

Beautiful. Yes. And your story deserves to be heard. So keep, keep sharing it. And yeah, you're gonna help walk a lot of people home. So I appreciate you. Thank you.

Thank you, guys. This is such a pleasure.

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