266. Milam Miller | he Charisma Craft: A Modern Leadership Guide to Enhance Your "Rizz" Factor

Hello, Book Thinkers family, and welcome to our personal development podcast, Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books. During each episode, we interview one of the world's top authors, and as a listener, you can expect to discover new books, new mentors, and new resources that you can use to achieve more and live better.

Hello, Book Thinkers family, and welcome to our personal development podcast, Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books.

In today's episode, we have the pleasure to interview Maylam Miller, author of The Charisma Craft: A Modern Leadership Guide to Enhance Your Rizz Factor. Maylam is a keynote speaker, leadership coach, and sales performance consultant who's been described by clients as the real-life Ted Lasso. Over his career in sports and entertainment, he negotiated more than $100 million in commercial revenue, but it was his passion for soft skills and human connection that led him to launch BCK, Be Confident and Kind, a movement helping leaders create stronger teams and drive better results. In this episode, you'll learn why charisma is not a personality trait, but a craft you can develop, how to balance confidence with kindness to influence others authentically, and why boldness and curiosity are the currencies of modern leadership. Now get ready to learn And enjoy this incredible conversation with Milam Miller.

Milam, welcome to the Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books Podcast. I'm excited to chat with you about your brand new book today, and my first question has to do with an early influence of yours. There was a CPR instructor who put on a masterclass for what charisma is. Bring us back to that moment. Tell us about what that was like.

Absolutely. And thanks for having me on, Nick. I love having these conversations. I know that you've actually read the book and not every podcast host I expect to do that. So it's, uh, it's gonna be fun to be in conversation with you specifically. So let me take you back to that moment. I wanna say that was, uh, early days of 2022, and I went to this CPR training class thinking it was a box-checking exercise, something I had to do. Not something I wanted to do in order to start teaching yoga. It was something I'd done at a time where I was feeling really burned out in my corporate career, and I know a lot of people can relate to that feeling. And I thought, what's next? And I did the one thing that I knew would bring me a sense of calm to my nervous system, which was go through 200-hour yoga teacher training. Once I completed that, they said, oh, by the way, you got to go to CPR training if you actually want to teach. And I was like, well, how will I know if I like teaching if I don't try it on, to use a yoga term? So I Stepped foot in this class, probably closed-minded, not a version of myself I'm necessarily proud of. But the minute I saw the instructor come in with such presence, such power, such gusto, I thought, hold the phone, this guy has something that everybody wants. And that thing, it is charisma.

And so what about the word rizz? Because that gets tossed around all over social media these days. I mean, wasn't it word of the year recently or something like that? Talk to us about rizz. Like, why do you think that that word made such a comeback?

Sure. In fact, rizz was the word of the year in 2023, according to Oxford English Languages. It's, it's a play on the word charisma, which I refer to in the book, specifically in chapter 3, using that phonetics. But let me be clear, this CPR instructor had a rizz too, as Gen Zers call it. He He had style, but that's not what made me feel connected to him. He was wearing like some Air Jordans. He was doing demonstrations showing us if you get electrocuted, like you're going to fly. And he was throwing his Gucci wallet, you know, across the room. Like the guy was larger than life. But really, it was the way he was able to connect with us on a human level. That is charisma. And so I don't think Riz should be misconstrued as just looking fly or flashy or having like romantic flair or appeal. If we really get back to the root of the word, charisma is the ability to connect with other human beings.

I love that. I love that definition and getting back to the root of the word, which we can break down in just a moment. I may have told you this story when we first met, but way back in the day before I really started Book Thinkers, I was working a software sales role. And the company had just hired a new director of sales, and he was flying from California to Boston every other week to spend time with us. I was in the Boston area, and this guy had so much charisma. I had never seen anything like it. Every restaurant we went to, he would greet the hostess or the host and compliment them. I love your hair. I love this restaurant. What a beautiful job you get to work. Tell me about it. How long have you been here? Hey, before I get seated, what's the best thing on the menu? And just make them feel like they were involved and like they were a million bucks. And whether I was at the airport with him or at the rental car place, or we were at Dunkin' Donuts grabbing a coffee, he made everybody feel that way.

Yeah.

So it wasn't about him. It was about how he connected with other people and about how they felt that made me admire him back in the day. And I didn't have the language of charisma really to articulate it back then, but You know, I'm sure in the audience we can all think of somebody who displays a lot of these characteristics.

Totally. And what you just conveyed, to bottom line it, Nick, is it wasn't about him. He made it about them. And I want listeners to remember that the most charismatic people— this gentleman who left an impression on you— the focus is always on them. And that's a good segue, actually, to my grandfather, who I referred to as Poppy. He's no longer with us. He did exactly that. We'd go into a restaurant, he would greet the maître d', he would ask the server, you know, what their favorite thing on the menu is, what their favorite thing, not what's the bestseller or the crowd pleaser, but what's yours? You know, and he really wanted to connect with them on a human level. I also didn't have the vocabulary for it when I was a child, but I realized as I got older that my grandfather had developed this skill and it wasn't a trait he was born with. It was something he had to practice with intentionality. and repetition. And that made me realize, oh my gosh, this is a super skill, especially in the age of AI, that we can all develop if we have the same amount of care and attention and intention of how we're, how we're deploying this skill. So that is why I titled my book The Charisma Craft, because I think it's a craft we all have to make our own. If we're trying to replicate it or force it, it feels disingenuous. Hence why I break down other frameworks in the book to make sure you're staying authentic to yourself. But charisma is really just the ability, like I said, to connect with others, and that two-way energetic exchange makes us feel bonded. And you'll know you have the rizz if you can feel bonded to others or if you're, you're influencing others.

I would like to go back to your Poppy in just a moment, but first, you brought up an interesting subject. And that is AI. It feels to me like as AI takes over more of our communication via email and it's crafting our social media captions, that sometimes our content and our communication is becoming less personal, right? More high-tech, not high-touch.

Yep.

And so also I've, I heard a lot. I'm not in the school system, but I have some siblings that are. as teachers, and they were telling me that during the pandemic, with work from home or attend school from home, as well as a lot of charisma has to do with your smile and the warmth that you convey, right? That's half of the equation.

Yeah.

That with masks, it feels like there's this entire generation that missed out on developing a lot of that skill. What I like about your message is that it is a skill. It can be developed. It's never too late to promote a book or To build this skill of charisma. So talk to us about AI and how that, you know, charisma is maybe becoming more of a valuable asset for somebody to develop.

Sure. So AI, I think, is an incredible tool. I think we'd all agree it's, it's, it's powerful. Um, AI can tell us what to say to appear more, more charismatic. For example, open-ended questions to ask to somebody— your barista, your Uber driver— can tell you what to, to say or ask, but it won't necessarily tell you how to say or ask it. And I think that that's where there's so much nuance to charisma and being able to read your audience or read the room and know if it's tracking, like if it's like, does this land or not? And when I was writing the book, obviously artificial intelligence will tell you so many things. There are some thought leaders out there, Nick, who candidly think that charisma is a personality trait. You're either— you're born with it, either you got it or you don't. But I wanted to set out to debunk that, and I found research that said the opposite. You mentioned us wearing masks during the pandemic. A great example of a skill you can develop to craft your charisma is the smize. I think Tyra Banks coined that term, pop culture, back in the day. But really, in science, it's called the Duchenne smile, and it means you're smiling with your eyes, the crow's feet. And it's a signal of warmth, and that warmth makes you more approachable. It makes you more likable. It makes you more believable. People will trust you quicker by simply smiling with your eyes. So I know people might feel like, oh, this is so so silly, or these are such small things. But we don't know we're not doing it, and we have to become mindful of our actions and also open up our mind to be willing to maybe try something different in order to see if it resonates, to see if it lands. So I'm all about. You developing your charisma craft in a way that's authentic to you, in a way that stretches you outside of your, your comfort zone, a way that, that maybe feels bold. And then most importantly, you gotta stay curious about yourself and others as you're developing this craft.

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Do you ever watch yourself back on podcasts or in interviews or on social media content looking for warmth cues or competence cues or opportunities for improvement?

Yes. And I will probably rewatch myself right here because I wasn't engaging in active listening. I was so ready to respond to you, Nick, because I was going to say, of course I do. And for all the listeners out there, it's cringe. It is absolutely cringe because I know I am the most, I'm hardest on myself. I'm the most hard person on myself. And we likely all are, right? We have a tendency to be our, our, our, we can be our best champion or we can be our worst critic. And so I say that to really encourage listeners. How do you know if you're going to get better at something if you don't watch yourself or reread what you wrote? And so watch the film. That's what the best of the best do. Like reread what you wrote. I wrote this book, the introduction about the CPR instructor, I think was my 5th Introduction for the book, Nick. And I finally was like, this is actually the point of origin or the jumping off point that I want to talk about. Because everybody, just like the AED machine I saw in that CPR class, everybody can access this skill if they're open-minded to it. They can embody certain traits and characteristics of it, but most importantly, they've got to deploy it. And part of the deployment is watching the film and getting better to refine your craft.

When I was in college, we would, during a public speaking class, we would do a 2-minute presentation, and then the professor would say, how many times do you think you used the word like?

Ooh.

Or um, or ah, or so, or but? And I would say, 2 minutes, maybe 5 times. And then you'd watch the tape back and it would be 25 times. And you can't imagine how many— why am I saying like, or ah, or so, or but, or um so many times? And watching back the tape makes you aware of some of those opportunities to improve. One more thing on charisma as a skill, and then I have a couple of questions about your puppy. So many people in the personal development space now believe in a growth mindset as compared to a fixed mindset. But I still think that the overwhelmingly dominant narrative for the average person who doesn't look into psychology thinks of things like empathy or charisma As fixed traits, like you said, personality traits instead of skills that they can improve. So talk to us about improving charisma other than watching game tape. What are some things that people can do? What are some subjects that your book teaches? How can we improve our charisma?

Absolutely. I'm so glad you're asking that question because I'm a firm believer in the camp that empathy also is something we can develop. And, uh, I don't know if I would necessarily say empathy is crafted because empathy is, is feeling like what somebody else has felt. Like, you know, you, you know what it's like for me to launch a book. You've, you know that feeling. You can really empathize with the good, the bad, the ugly of putting your words out in the world and, and having them up for, uh, interpretation or judgment. So I would say if you're wanting to become more charismatic, and let's be clear, this is a skill that will not only serve you, but serve others, that the people you lead, if you're, if you're a new manager, that this book is a great resource, uh, for people leaders, or if in particular you're in a sales role. And I'm a firm believer also that we're all in sales of some sort, right? We've got to sell ourselves in a job interview. We've got to sell ourselves at a young age, whether we're teaching kids to go sell Girl Scout cookies, right? Like we see it all the time. We're in sales of some sort. So if we can take away the ick of like, Charisma isn't to trick or manipulate someone. It's actually rooted in authenticity. Then we feel more comfortable developing this skill. And, and I always say it's the same for sales. If we think of sales as an act of service and charisma as a skill that will help us sell better, then we feel less gross about it. So if I were to give listeners 3 things, it's one, challenge your mindset. There might be outdated or limiting beliefs that you've put on yourself of like, charisma is just something I will never have because I, maybe I'm bald. Maybe I don't like the way I look in my body. Right. It's, it's not tied to necessarily how you look, but it is tied to how you feel about yourself. So number one, challenge outdated or limiting beliefs. Number 2, um, I talk about in part 2 of the book embodying the ABCs of RIZ. That stands for authenticity. It's a word I've been, I've been subtly mentioning boldness. And what sits behind boldness is bravery. And then curiosity. So if you can get really brave and really curious, I always say that the C that sits behind curiosity is courage, because bravery means like we're fearless, but courage means I'm, I'm, I'm doing it despite the fear. Then you can start to develop this persona that is uniquely you. So that's the second thing. Embody the things that make you one of one, even if that means having to be authentic, be brave, and be courageous. And then finally, there's so many tactics in part 3 of the book that we could talk about. But if we never deploy this and we're just sitting at home, we're not getting those reps. There's no film to watch. So I always tell people, start small, strike up a conversation with a stranger in the line at the grocery store. If it's self-checkout, which seems to be like the, the norm now, then whenever the light goes on for them to come check your ID or help you because you scan something twice, Treat that person with kindness, with empathy. There's really 2 factors that we know are signals of people with, with, with charisma. It's high competency, but more importantly, it's warmth. And so that's your opportunity to really deploy the warmth, the kindness, showcase your humanity. And those people are the most charismatic people in the world.

So do you think warmth is more important than competence?

Going back to your fixed or growth mindset, I do think our our competencies perhaps have a fixed cap. We can only fit so much in our thinking cap, right? Like we we were oversaturated oversaturated with data and stimuli, and I think we really have to make a decision. What do I want to be competent at, right? What do I really want to channel my my efforts towards? I sometimes Use examples of like I have no desire, Nick, to become a good snow skier. I'm not competent at skiing, and I have no desire to. I'd rather like focus efforts at becoming better or more competent at other things. But the warmth piece to me—that's uncapped potential. We can always choose kindness. And I think that I was watching—if you follow on Instagram—I love his account. His name's David. It's—it's—he's got the confidence account. I forget what it's called. I'll have to. Uh, put that in the show notes.

Does he walk around and talk to 5 people on the street wearing the mic on it or the camera on his head?

Typically in SoHo, New York. And he's like, what is it that makes you confident? And he just interviewed a woman who was like, don't be mistaken, I'm a New Yorker. She was, she was much, um, let's say wiser. And she's, she's accrued many years of wisdom. I'm not going to call her older, but she was like, and he challenged her. He was like, you seem really nice. She's like, I'm not nice. Like New York's hard on me. And then he's like, well, you seem kind. And she's like, you're right. I am kind. So I think sometimes people are afraid that they're going to be perceived as a pushover if they're like the nice guy or too nice of a girl and not seen as competent. But we can always be kind, and kindness is a choice that really is rooted in that warmth.

I love that takeaway. Yeah, we can always choose to be kind. And so going back to your Poppy, you said that he sort of defied all of the used car salesman stereotypes and That's where people think about sales. They think about tools and tips and tactics of manipulation, persuasion. I'm going to be taken advantage of. You know, it's all about earning the next dollar and it's this transactional world. And so how is your Poppy different? What did he show you about used car sales that's a little different than that?

Yeah, it's unfortunate that that's the stigma sales has gotten, uh, because I think that there are training entities or maybe old belief systems that it's all about the hard sell. And in my, my Poppy's case, if he had 10 cars on a lot, it's like pushing the product and like push something on the customer that they might not want and, and convince them almost like to be very sly, like a fox. But instead he said, what you see is what you got. Like, take your pick. If you don't, if there's nothing here that you like, Then work with me and we will go find it together. I will work on your behalf. So I called him a matchmaker of sorts because it wasn't matching them to his limited inventory in order for him to push a sale. It was, let me work with my network and find you the right car, find you something that fits your needs or your family's needs. And I think a lot of people wouldn't take the time or the effort to do that. They would just say, oh, trust me, you want this model and here's why, or it's low mileage, or check out all the bells and whistles. And so Being really intentional about the customer and always have that customer-centric mindset is what my Poppy exhibited. But to take it a step further, that's because he led with humanity. He saw the human in them, the budget constraints, the you name it. And so it didn't matter if it was a customer coming to his business. He had that human-centric approach everywhere else he went in life— restaurants, airports. And trust me, it's hard to be kind in an airport. I had a flight get canceled on Sunday and I was like, What does it look like for me to choose kindness? You're allowed to be frustrated. You're allowed to feel all the feels, but you are responsible for how you, if you react or how you respond and choose to respond with kindness. So, um, my grandfather modeled that for me. Um, I know it's so much easier said than done for all of us, but when we remember we have choice, that agency, that's the greatest thing that a human could ever remember is I have choice in this situation.

Yes. And energy is contagious, and oftentimes it reflects back onto you. And so if you show up and you choose the not so kind, uh, version of what you're going to say, no wonder they're going to kick that energy right back to you, right? Yeah. Um, so your first sales job, you used charisma to sell a few toilets. Do I have that note right?

That is correct. For all the listeners, I Made quite literally a pretty shitty sale after many failed attempts, which was cold calling the old school way, not AI chatbots sliding in your DMs or emails saying, can I send you a video on this? It's like, if you wanted to send me the video, you could send me the video. I think that's so funny. They're looking for consent or approval. But all that to say, I worked at a plumbing supply company, Nick. It was a summer job. My mom and dad said, If you don't want to move home, then find a job to pay your rent, support yourself while you're in college. And I started out in the warehouse with no formal training on how to operate a forklift. And my biggest fear coming to work every day was I don't want to drop one of the commodes made of porcelain or a tub because I knew they'd be taking the damaged goods out of my paycheck. But when I would come in, in the hot Texas summers, the heat to cool off at the water cooler, Get a glass of water. I would see we had a predominantly male sales force. I would see the men working in the showroom developing this skill of charisma and getting really curious about the customer's needs. Is it a new build? Is it a remodel? Is it— what sinks did you have previously? What commodes did you have? Like, is it a one-off buy? Are they a repeat customer? All these things to get really curious about who it was they were serving. And I didn't know it at the time. I wasn't able to put two and two together, but I thought like they have something that maybe I don't have, whether it's the gift of time, training, you name it. And then when I got my shot to come in out of the heat, 'cause somebody got sick, I forget if it was Mickey Mantle or Lou Gehrig, you know, it was that rule where they missed the baseball game. And then, do you know who it is, Nick? And then the backup got their shot. But essentially that was my story.

I mean, I know the Tom Brady story pretty well. That's another example of it. Yeah.

Yeah. Drafted what, 399th, I think, in the draft and went on to become the most decorated quarterback in NFL history. But effectively, it was the idea that I got to then work in the showroom. And I'd never cold-called before, but I was given a ream of paper of people that had expressed interest and never purchased. And my job was to call them and say, Hey Nick, I saw that you were interested in a Kohler sink. Were you able to find it? If not, how can I help you? And things of that nature. And 200+ calls in, I, I mean, it was crazy how many nos I heard, how many clicks, F yous, do not call, you name it. Um, and I'm like, I'm just a human on the other end of the line that I realized I had to change my script and how I was engaging and interacting and I had to be of service. And so, That was really the early days of developing this skill of charisma. And as fate would have it, spoke with a customer that I refer to in the book. Her name's Agnes. And she said, I don't want to buy just one, not even 2 commodes. I want to buy 3 because if I'm going to buy, I'm just going to, you know, update all the commodes in my house. And so I called my grandfather. He was the first person I called to be like, you'll never believe what happened. I kind of switched up my script. She didn't buy just one, she bought 3. And he was like, boy, if you can sell a commode, you can sell anything. So very, very old school Texan. And, uh, that was a great launchpad into much more bigger sales that I did later in my career.

What do you think he would say to you if he had a chance to read this book?

Well, the book is dedicated to both him and my son who was born 3 weeks after he passed. And when I started the The manuscript process. That was not my intention. It just developed during the process. And I think he would be really proud of the grit required to pull together a body of work like this. I think he would be happy for my readers because charisma isn't a skill. This isn't the charisma secret, right? This isn't, this isn't something that should be withheld. This is— A gift that, like I said, it's a skill that can be developed. And so knowledge is power. Why would we not share that super strength with others? So I like to think that the tide rises together, and he'd be so happy that people perhaps that maybe are more introverted, more scared of people, can use these tools and resources as a way to connect with others. And I think that would be his legacy.

I agree that personal development in general is a rising tides situation or ecosystem. You know, it's, it's this idea of, Milam, the best thing you can do for our relationship is work on yourself. And the best thing that I can do for our relationship is work on myself and develop these skills and always look for room to improve and just be a better version of myself. And so I think your book touches on a subject that is relevant to every person in the audience, but a subject that not so many people are focused on improving.

That's right. And maybe it's because we don't have the, the mindfulness to realize this is something I could improve. I think the word should is a slippery slope. But I would go as far to say is, you should take a look at yourself in the mirror and be like, is my Charisma, have I neglected it? I think oftentimes as humans, and I'm in my mid-30s, right? Like a core millennial. You go through life with a script of like, you go to school, this is your school year. You maybe for some want to go to college or trade school, and then you kind of lose sight of like all the boxes you have to check to take it back to that box checking exercise of CPR class that I didn't have on my bingo card. And as we go through life, we're trying to figure out our way. And the only way we can figure out our way in the world is to figure out, to know thyself. And so when we know ourselves and we're confident and secure, and confident doesn't mean like that we never doubt ourselves, but it knows at the end of the day, we're choosing to believe and trust ourselves and that we have choice. But I say all that because as we find our way and we, we are more confident or secure in ourselves, then we're more able to connect with others. And it's exactly like you said, if Nick's working on him, that's the best thing in service to me. I'm working on me. That's the best thing in service to Nick. And then we can come together and have a very thoughtful and engaging dialogue.

Yes.

And so charisma is— it's overlooked. It's oft overlooked. I talk about that in the book, but whenever we become mindful of it again, it's amazing what it will do for the opportunities in our lives.

I would like to transition to a couple of examples of charisma, and we can work through a few different examples pretty quickly as we get towards the end of the podcast. I think for most people listening, well, we'll have a, we'll have a little fun thing here. Why don't you as an audience member think for a moment, maybe pause this podcast and just think for a moment, who is the best representation of charisma? In your life, or maybe online, TV personality, famous person. Just take a minute, pause this, think about it. And Milam, now as people are coming back, my guess is that a lot of people are going to say Ted Lasso. I mean, I think he's probably the most famous, and, and at least for me, when I think about charisma, I think about Ted Lasso. Why do you think that is? What about that character just took the world by storm?

Mm-hmm. He changed my world in more ways than one. For listeners that don't know, I worked in European football, and I can empathize with what I saw on screen, that feeling of being cast as an outsider. Like, you're not English, you don't know our football, you're American, you know, like, that football. And so I, I think what took the world by storm was him choosing to be kind and leading with that human-centric approach. He didn't go over to Richmond, which is a fictional football club, and I realize Ted Lasso is a fictional character for any cynics out there, but let us just hit you with a dose of optimism, which was he didn't teach them how to kick a soccer ball. He taught them to know themselves and to trust themselves, to, as we recall the sign, believe in themselves first and foremost, in one another, in the team, and in a cause larger than themselves, which was the community, right? Community of Richmond bringing them up. So I, um, I think that so much of what Ted balanced was this idea of the personal development practice that I run. I do a lot of sales enablement training. It's called Be Confident and Kind. He was confident that he could do the job even if the odds were stacked against him and he had never coached soccer before. He knew he'd figure out a way. Um, but he was also kind to himself as he was dealing with his own struggles, right? A divorce. Coping with with with with alcohol, not seeking out mental help. Ultimately, he he does seek out help for his mental health and and choosing to be kind to himself on that road, but also kind to others. So I think he's a great example, and there's plenty of real life coaches. I talk in the book about Phil Knight. I mean, not only did he win trophies, but that's because. He— it's not just because he coached Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant. It's because he got to know his teams. He knew how to figure out to make a starting 5 gel, a 6th man off the bench, etc. It's, it's these individuals that know it's, it's more than sport. It's about humanity. And so that's who I find to be the most charismatic individuals.

I love it. Yeah. That scene in Ted Lasso, the dart scene. It's one of my— that's one of the best, one of the best scenes in television history as far as I'm concerned. You're just rooting for him and you're like, yeah, Yeah, stick it to him. Just such a great lesson. What about Serena Williams? Oh, go ahead.

Well, I was going to intrude real quick, Nick, because for listeners that haven't seen it, in that scene, Rupert Murdoch, who's the— or maybe it's not Rupert, Rupert Mannion. I was going to say Rupert Murdoch, somebody else. Rupert Mannion, the fictional character, is the current team owner, Rebecca Welton's ex-husband, and he thinks he can beat Ted in this dart competition. Ted's like, if you had gotten curious about me and used this skill of charisma to connect with me, You would know that I played darts every weekend with my dad. And so it's this beautiful lesson on just, um, get curious about other people. And again, your, your world and their world will open up.

There, there's a great ABCs of Riz lesson right there.

That's right. That's right.

I was going to ask about Serena Williams. She's your favorite athlete of all time. How did that come to be?

Sure. So Serena is, um, I think also a misunderstood athlete. People could point to her. Temper tantrums or outbursts on the court, but Serena's built an incredible brand, and I think the older Serena has become—and Serena, I'm sorry if you're listening—which I would love if you'd listen to this—I'm not trying to date you—but I think as she has matured, she's realized, oh, actually, I need to maybe not react; I need to respond, and I need to respond in a way that is uniquely Serena. And and so I call her in the book—it's an archetype that's called. The Warrior, because she's brave. She faced a ton of racism, a ton of injustice. I can understand why she might be a little callous, might be a little guarded, but at the end of the day, she's just got this fearlessness to go after such audacious goals. She broke Steffi Graf's slam record, never made it to Margaret Court's all-time record, but she holds the record in the open era, I think, with 23 Grand Slams. But I wanted to provide readers with a juxtaposition, and especially with you and I both identifying as he/him males, Roger Federer's charisma looks so different from Serena's. It's not that warrior spirit. It's more subtle. I call him the maestro. He gives men permission to cry in public in front of millions of people. It's okay to be soft. And so I think I wanted to give my readers— it's also okay, especially for female readers, To be a little bit more hard or like a warrior, like Serena, to fight for your rights as a tennis player. I talk about Indian Wells, her boycott. So you'd really, I think, have to read the chapter to understand the nuance. This is all my interpretation. But at the end of the day, I just think Serena, watching her play, same like with, with watching Roger, was unbelievable. But it's who she's become to become more than just a tennis player, but a cultural icon. That is undoubtedly to me charismatic.

Yeah, I think so too. You know, boldness, being fierce, boldness. I think you said in the book is a currency somewhere. And I think a lot about that. I— one of the reasons that I love to attend in-person events and I love to attend all sorts of coaching that's done in person is because I walk out of those rooms my boldest self. And when I am acting as my boldest self, I make bigger decisions. And those decisions, although sometimes a little bit more risky than my normal decision-making, they, they tend to work out. Um, they're educated bold decisions. And so I just love to be as bold as possible, but I— my default is not to be that way.

Yeah.

I have to constantly rev my engine up. And, uh, so I admire people that are bold and are fierce, and that's just, you know, part of their default manufacturing, I suppose. Yeah.

Well, and I want to use a quote I heard recently. I'm sure you did too. Taylor Swift was on the Kelce Brothers podcast and she talked about this soundbite I feel has gone viral, Nick, of you treat your energy like a luxury item and not everyone deserves to have your energy if they're not going to invest in you. And I'd say let's flip that script on its head. If you want to be more charismatic, invest in others and treat them To what? Treat them like a, like a, like a luxury item, like, like worthy of your time and your attention. And in doing so, it's, it's, it's amazing the, the energetic pulls and connection we can feel. Um, the reason I think boldness is a currency and it's kind of adjacent to that line of thinking is because our biggest fear in life is hearing no. It's rejection. It's not, it's being unliked. It's being judged unfairly and all of these professional athletes, me having worked in professional sports that I feature, they failed time and time again. Roger Federer talks about it in his graduation commencement speech at Dartmouth, which I reference in the book. But yet they still choose to show up. They know they're not going to win every point. They know they're not going to win every match. They— Taylor Swift knows not everyone's going to like her. She has nothing left to prove, right? Her Eras Tour was on par with Elvis Presley, like record-breaking. Most historic act of all time. And yet she just announced another album, The Life of a Showgirl. She's bold. And what sits behind that is bravery, knowing that like, I might hear no, this might flop, I might be misunderstood, rejected, but yet I'm still going to do it anyways. And so I agree with you. When I go to those in-person things, Nick, I walk out of there saying, how can I be braver? Because even if I hear no, so what? I've heard no before. I'm going to hear no again. But is that going to help me turn that no into a knowing, a K-N-O-W, of I'm doing the right thing? I'm living in alignment. I'm going after my purpose. I'm, I'm, I'm taking a step in the direction I want to go. And that requires boldness, not doing nothing. That's, that's apathy is, is the true enemy. Um, so I, I love the idea of those that I think I wrote fortune favors the bold, like those that are willing to be bold and brave enough and And take risks, then there will be some level, however you deem fortune, there will be some sort of payoff.

I love that lesson. I turn no, you know, no into knowing. And I had a door-to-door sales job, a phone sales job. I learned to love no because I knew that every no got me closer to the next yes. But turn no into knowing is pretty cool. I like that.

It's a helpful reframe for a lot of my clients. To know, K-N-O-W, if they're on the right path. Because I think that if you're hearing no after no after no, and it's a beatdown, you're like, why am I doing this? And you don't have that resilient mindset like you had, Nick, of it's getting me closer to a yes. Then maybe you want to hear nos in a different line of work or a different industry, a different arena, a different field. So you can turn it into a knowing of, oh no, I know this is just either a dip, but I'm in the right place. This, this feels good and in alignment. Or no, it's, it's actually pointing me in a different direction. So there's all these clichés, rejection is redirection. Um, but I truly believe in them and I saw that in my own career.

Hmm. All right. As we get ready to wrap up the podcast today, uh, I did want to ask, where can people go to find out more about you, your book, maybe hire you? I, you know, what are the options available? What services do you provide and how do people get in touch?

That's so kind. I appreciate that, Nick. I love working with sales teams. If you are in any sort of producer or revenue generator role, if you are a sales leader, especially you have sales kickoffs annually, if y'all have quarterly offsites, you name it, I would love to be at your company with your team, having lunch, getting to know you all on a human level. You can learn more about me and my work at www.beconfidentandkind.com. That's beconfidentandkind.com, uh, as well as on LinkedIn. Slide in my DMs. Let's have a human chat. Take it offline. I'm old school. Love picking up the phone. And, uh, really where I index well is with people like you, Nick, that know what it's like to pound the pavement, knock on the doors, and, uh, but keep that knowing that they're onto something and that they will find their next yes. So I equip them with the tools and the resources to become more effective at doing that.

Okay, great. So we'll have a link to your book, to the website, to your LinkedIn in the show notes for the audience to take advantage of. Couple of rapid-fire questions before we let you go.

Sure.

We talked about the CPR instructor and your Poppy. We talked about Serena Williams, and we talked about Ted Lasso and a couple of other mentors of yours. Uh, I know Dale Carnegie is also a really big mentor of yours, so What is your favorite lesson from Dale Carnegie?

He is, and I write about it on, I think, page 2 or 3 in the book. And this is a great takeaway for listeners. I'll hold it up for anyone watching, but it is the age-old lesson: to be interesting, be interested. And I think that's the best thing you can do as you go about your day-to-day life, your interactions, as you're getting those reps in, as I call them, the, the IRL, in real life, human reps. Be interested in the other person and you will be perceived as more interesting.

Uh, when I ask the following question, I'm interested to see what comes to mind first. If your book was deleted, gone, zip, every podcast, every conversation, every rough draft gone, but you could leave the world with just one simple message, what would it be?

Oh, Nick, that makes me kind of sad to think it could be wiped, right? Eradicated off, off the face of the earth. Um, I think the simple message would be, and this is adjacent to Dale Carnegie, the sweetest sound in the world is somebody's name. Remember, remember people's names and say them, right? It's, if you, if a person doesn't like their name, they can go change it. So, and if they don't like it, ask them what they do like. If they've got a nickname, nicknames are such terms of endearment. But I think when I have had loved ones who've passed, the last thing I say is, for example, I love you, Poppy. And it's that name that we remember because a name is attached to how that person made us feel. Maya Angelou is, is famous for that. We may not remember what people say, but we'll remember how they make us feel. So if you want to make someone feel good about themselves, take the effort to remember their name, pronounce it properly. And say it because our name is a beautiful way to identify us.

Well, thank you for the wonderful conversation today, Milam. And, uh, yeah, I look forward to this going live and, and having it impact a lot of people.

Yeah, you are so welcome, Nick. And, um, I really appreciate you having me on, and I'm a huge fan of Book Thinkers, and so I appreciate your support of The Charisma Craft.

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