277. Travis Thomas | Confidence is Overrated

Hello, Book Thinkers family, and welcome to our personal development podcast, Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books. During each episode, we interview one of the world's top authors, and as a listener, you can expect to discover new books, new mentors, and new resources that you can use to achieve more and live better. In today's episode, we have the pleasure to interview Travis Thomas, author of Confidence Is Overrated: Why Courage Is the Antidote and Feelings Make Cowards of Us All. Travis is a leadership and mindset coach, keynote speaker, and founder of Live Yes and. He's coached elite performers from Fortune 100 executives to pro and college athletes. He served on the coaching staff for the U.S. men's national soccer team through the 2022 World Cup and previously led mindset work at the famed IMG Academy. All while bringing transformative principles of improvisation to high-performing cultures. In this episode, you'll learn why confidence is a feeling, but courage is a commitment, how to shift attention from feelings to behaviors so results improve, and a simple coaching equation— validation plus encouragement equals progress— that helps you and your team run at the storm like a buffalo and grow through discomfort. Now get ready to learn and enjoy this incredible conversation with Travis Thomas.

Travis, welcome to the Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books Podcast. I'm excited to chat with you today about Confidence Is Overrated. In my first—

I've got one of those too.

Oh, you do too? Imagine that. I bet you have a lot of copies of that book.

Just a few.

Just a few.

There's a few laid around. Yeah, not a ton right now.

Well, my first question actually has to do with the dedication of your book. So, you decided to dedicate this book to the child version of yourself. It was the book that you needed when you were younger. So, tell us why you decided to do that. Yeah.

Well, I think this is my second book. I think the first book I dedicated to my wife and kids. And as I was thinking about the dedication for this book, I thought about sort of that motivation of like, who am I really dedicating this book to? And I was like, ah, I'm need to dedicate this to the younger version of myself who, who really could have used these ideas, especially when I was younger and, and, and as an athlete and trying to sort through my own sort of fears and insecurities and uncertainties. And so when I think about it, I was— yeah, the more and more I wrote the book, I kept thinking to myself, Nick, I was like, man, I really needed this when I was a kid. Man, I wish I could have, I could have had this. And so I just really kind of sank into that idea that This is the book that I needed when I was younger.

I love that because all of us are most powerfully positioned to serve the person we once were. I mean, we've all grown in different ways, shapes, and forms, and looking back, we wish we could go shake that younger version of ourselves and say, wake up, you know. And here's the message that you want to project to that person. What age do you think Travis would have said, wow, I'm so happy I read this?

Yeah, you know what, probably like 14. I think about those early high school years. I don't even think I— maybe I mentioned in the book, but my freshman year of high school, I tried out for the varsity team and I didn't make it. I got cut from the varsity team and the blow to my ego, even though I was just a freshman, the blow to my ego, and I ended up like, it was the first time in my life I'd ever quit a team. I didn't play high school my freshman year. my freshman season. And I ended up— that's actually, I know I share the karate story in the book, but I ended up taking karate for, you know, a few months during that season. But when I look back, I'm like, I quit that freshman season because I knew I wasn't good enough. And I knew what I needed to do to improve felt too difficult. And so my ego couldn't take it. So my ego would rather quit than have the humility to embrace the struggle of what growth was going to look like or what I needed to do. And I think back to like, wow, if I really had someone who could help me frame that it was okay to be afraid, it was okay that this feels daunting. And, you know, instead of running away from it, how can we run at that storm? How can we kind of be the buffalo instead of the cow? I think it would have helped me just kind of take the next step instead of letting my ego run wild.

I really wish I had a mentor telling me those things at 14 as well. I had plenty of those moments. So, tell everybody the story of the buffalo and why we should run. Well, I don't want to spoil the punchline.

That's okay.

Go ahead and tell everybody about the story.

Yeah, it's funny, you know, it shows up. the analogy shows up in— I'm sure my algorithms are very much in this mental toughness, mental conditioning space. And so it might not be new to a lot of people, but it's this idea that if, let's say, you're in the Rocky Mountains, you're down in the valley and a thunderstorm comes rolling in or a snowstorm comes rolling in, if you're a cow, if you're cattle, They see the storm coming, you know, they're either going to lay down and just take the beating, or they're actually going to try to run in the opposite direction and avoid it, right? You know, so it's coming, and so they start running in the opposite direction. The storm catches up with them, and the fact that they're trying to avoid it, they're now running with the storm, and they end up getting beaten longer than they just taken it in the first place. So, but if you're a buffalo or a bison and that storm comes rolling down, And I, Nick, I do have this verified by an actual cowboy. He verified that this is true. So when the storm comes rolling down, they see the storm coming, and for whatever reason, they run at it. So the storm comes, they, they kind of see the inevitability, the inevitability of the obstacle, of the adversity, and instead of running away from it, they run at it. So yes, they get hit by the storm, they meet the storm, but they go through it. and they get on the other side of it more quickly than trying to avoid it. And so I just, you know, you know, I've had the opportunity to use that analogy when I was with the men's national soccer team and just with a lot of the clients and teams that I've worked with. And I think it just really helps us put into frame that adversity and challenge, fear, whatever it is, yeah, it's hard. Running at the storm is hard. But if we just accept it, like it's supposed to be hard, And that's what I needed when I was 14, Nick. I needed to know this is supposed to be hard. This isn't supposed to be easy. So when it becomes hard, just allow yourself to be humbled, but then just embrace the idea this is supposed to be hard. So just keep moving at that obstacle. Actually, the obstacle is what's making you stronger, or to quote The Obstacle Is the Way by Ryan Holiday, right? That's Stoicism. And so if I think for most of us, when we're confronted with the storms in our life, if A, yeah, it's supposed to be hard, and B, we're actually going to get stronger by moving through it instead of avoiding it. And so younger me avoided the challenges, avoided the struggle, and hopefully older me still doesn't like them, but, but embraces them and runs at them a little bit better.

Yeah, younger me needed that message. And you know what? Thankfully, I did have my parents, Travis, because I remember my sophomore year of high school, I was only about one week into my first year of wrestling. And I remember going home one day and telling my parents, I'm going to quit. I don't want to wrestle anymore. This is incredibly difficult.

Yeah.

And I can't recall exactly what my parents said to me at that time, but I decided to stick with it. A couple of years later, I'm wrestling in states. I'm captain of the team. We're a division-winning team. And I loved my experience wrestling. And it was because I decided to embrace that storm instead of run away from it that I was able to learn all those lessons and experience things. But yeah, there are so many other areas of my life that I think I ran away from the storm, and, and this book would have been so useful to me back then.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and I think, you know, again, that The reason I ended up— funny enough is when I started writing the book, it wasn't going to be called Confidence Is Overrated. I can't even remember. It was something— I think courage was in the title. And I think I was probably a chapter or 2 in when it became clear to me the thing that I'm really pushing against is the misconception or the overemphasis on confidence. And so, and then it became clear, I was like, yes, this is actually the problem. It's the, the overemphasis on confidence is the problem, instead of putting our focus and our attention on, on courage. And, and so I think if, if I had had that when I was 14, if, if someone, you know, you know, obviously in the book, Nick, I talk about like sort of this coaching equation of V plus E equals P, right? The V is, is it's to validate not only our own fears and insecurities, but when someone is coming to us with their fears and insecurities, that we can validate those as well. It's that validation that tells us, hey, being afraid? Oh yeah, no big deal. Yeah, you're afraid of a big game? Of course you're afraid of a big game. You know, oh, you've got to give a speech? Of course you're afraid of giving a big speech. Why, why would we resist a feeling or an emotion that is the most natural thing in the world. And so if I had been told at 14, hey, it's totally okay to be afraid, to be nervous, I just would have felt so much better, right? So, so that validation. And then once, once your feelings or, you know, your emotions are validated and someone says, hey, um, you know, what would, what would the next step or two look like? if we were to embrace this challenge? Not figuring out the whole thing, but hey, what's something you can do today? Well, you know, I can, you know, I can go out there and I, I can try to— yeah, let's do that. Hey, you don't, you know, go try to win 1 tackle today or 2 tackles. Or for you, like, hey, try not to get pinned in the first 30 seconds. Can you go 45 seconds before you get pinned? Like, whatever that, whatever that beginning element is, because all we want to do is just keep nudging, nudging the line of what progress looks like. Then the P is progress. So validation plus encouragement or validation plus empowerment equals progress, or it actually— our performance is progress. And so if I just felt a little bit— I just felt, especially as a young boy at 14, I felt like I was the only one, I was the only kid that, that had this level of fear and insecurity. So there must be something wrong with me. And the reality is we all, we all carry it around. And had I known that it was okay, I wouldn't have felt that there was something uniquely weak about me and I would've been able to handle a little better.

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This is such a fun subject for me because some of the stories that I'm planning on sharing over the next half an hour with you are stories that I haven't told in 300 episodes of this this podcast because this subject I think is often taken for granted. So I'm happy that we're diving into it. Yeah, validation and encouragement are so important. I remember, I remember in middle school I had just started playing football and the coach of our team in 7th grade was a former NFL player.

Yeah.

And his son and his son's best friend's, uh, best friend, they were 2 kids on our team and they would actually throw up vomit before every game. And I didn't have the language to understand that they were also feeling the same anxiety that I was before the game. I was just really reserved and shy about it, and I didn't talk about it to people. And they were a little bit more, I would say, open and visible with, with their fear.

Yeah.

But they played really well. They both went on to, to play high-level D1 football. And it's like, If somebody just told me, hey, they're also nervous and scared, that's what that is, and just acknowledge it and then, you know, feel the encouragement that, hey, that's okay and you can go out there and play anyway, I probably would have had a much better experience when I was younger. And that's exactly what it is, and that's what I wish I had back then.

Yeah, and so often, right, Nick, we got the message, a little bit of a mixed messaging growing up where We would have maybe a coach that would tell us, um, there's nothing to be afraid of, be fearless, there's nothing to be afraid of. And like, if you're feeling fear and you're being told there's nothing to be afraid of, be fearless— well, if I have fear and I'm being told to be fearless, well, now I assume there's something wrong with me, right?

It's the opposite of validation.

It's the opposite of validation. Oh shoot, now I, now I need to hide that fear because if the coach thinks I'm afraid or my teammates think that I'm afraid Well, they're not going to want to play me, or they're not going to think I'm— so now I have to hide the thing that is so natural. And, and then also we might have the coach in the next sentence say, hey guys, just go out there and be courageous. It's like, wait a second, do we want to be fearless? We want to be courageous? Because what do we— what is courage without fear? Courage needs fear to be courage. That's the essence of courage, is to be brave means to do the uncomfortable thing, to do the thing where we're filled with fear and we have the commitment to do it otherwise. Well, that's, that's what's noble. Bravery and courage is noble because it's doing the uncomfortable thing. Well, isn't that what life and growth is all about, is to, to keep going, to run that run at the storm, which requires courage and bravery? Well, if I'm told to be fearless, well, there's nothing really noble in doing the thing that, that I'm like, yeah, I'm just super comfortable. This is easy to me. No big deal. Well, there's not a ton of nobility in that. And so we get that mixed message a lot over the years and someone's like, well, we can't perform well. You guys can't go out and play well today unless you're confident. Well, wait a second. If I'm not confident, then I can't play well? Again, we've got this other message of, well, I'm not feeling confident, so I guess I can't play well. And you and I both know that's not true.

Right.

That one of the ideas I talk about in the book a lot is, have we ever been super confident going into a game or a speech or a test in school? and you've done poorly? Like, yeah. Have you ever gone into a game or a speech or a test in school where you didn't think you were going to do well, but you'd studied, but you still were nervous and you were afraid, and then you end up crushing it? Like, yeah, I've done that too. Okay. So why is confidence so important? It's just a feeling. Sometimes it feels good. Sometimes we're confident, but it's not. And so, you know, to quote, you know, my good friend that we lost a few years ago, and, you know, Trevor Moatt, who was one of the best mental conditioning coaches in the world. He would say feelings don't predict— feelings don't predict outcomes. Right?

Yeah, I highlighted that in the book. Yeah, that was a really big takeaway for me too.

So it's not our feelings that determine the outcome. It's our behaviors, our behaviors/actions, our behaviors become our actions. If I focus on my feelings, I'm going to feel that feeling more deeply. If I focus on the behaviors, I'm focused on the actual steps, actions, you know, behaviors that actually create the outcome or create the result. And so it's not denying my emotions and my feelings, it's shifting my attention off of them and, and resting my attention on my behaviors. So it's okay to feel exactly what I'm feeling— validation. But the feelings don't, don't help us achieve the outcome. So instead of trying to manipulate how we feel, our emotions, just let's just shift off of that and actually focus on— if I'm, I'm looking at my refrigerator right now, right? If I'm hungry, I can be really, really hungry. So I'm hungry. It's not bringing the food to me. What's going to bring the food to me? Standing up. and walking over and getting to it, the actual action behavior. So when we focus on— when we shift our attention from our feelings to our behaviors or the actions, you know, that's why, you know, Bill Belichick, right? It's like, do your job, right? Some of the best coaches, what, what were they focused on? They were focused on the actions and the behaviors moment to moment in the now, present, right here. Performance is in the present. And so You're feeling nervous today? Great. You're feeling confident today? Great. You're feeling great? But what are the behaviors that you're going to commit to? And so I think if I were to add another chapter, Nick, it would just be, it's really about commitment, right? The courage is in the commitment. Can I commit to it? Just commit. Just commit to it. And if you commit, we'll see what's capable.

Can you give us an example of how this would apply in a non-sports context? So we'll use business because there's so many So many professional business people of all shapes and sizes in our audience. What does this look like in a business scenario?

Yeah. Take any aspect of business. And if I'm in sales, right? If I'm in sales, what are the behaviors and the actions that drive sales? Well, it's probably making more calls, having more one-on-ones. probably raising that, that, that level a little bit. What would prevent me from wanting to have more calls? Getting more nos. Right? So the things, the things that hold us back are, you know, the fear of rejection or the fear of, you know, maybe I'm just not good at this. And so, you know, I would say it's like, hey, you know, so if we go to behaviors and actions that are measurable, and someone says, well, I say, hey, how many, you know, how many prospective calls do you make a day? They're like, I make 10 calls a day. I was like, okay, All right, great. I was like, all right, what would it look like if you made 12 calls today? All right. Is that a hugely— is that such a drastic change to the behavior? No. All right. And I do this with, again, same thing with athletes. And I'll talk to a forward in soccer and say, on average, how many shots do you think it takes before you actually score a goal on average? And they'd be like, I score on every 5 shots, 1 in every 5. I was like, awesome. So I'll be— if so, the rationale would be if we can get more shots, we're going to score more goals. You keep beating yourself up off of every shot when you don't score, and you know that the magic number to get to is 5. 5 is probably going to have a goal. All right, so your goal is what? Well, to get my 5 shots as quickly as possible. Yeah. And then once you get your 5 shots, what's your next goal? Can I get— can I get shot number 6? Can I get shot number 7? And so the same thing with someone, say, like in a sales position, it's like, hey, I tend to convert 1 of every 10 calls. Awesome. All right. So if we can up that number a little bit, we're going to start to increase our conversion rate. Again, focusing on the behaviors instead of focusing on the feelings or the results. And again, if we just go to the business world again, you know, I'm nervous at giving presentations, or I'm nervous that, you know, whatever aspect of, of your work that is uncomfortable to you, instead of feeling like you have to change your personality or change or become a different person, all we need to do is lean into it a little bit. Again, run at that storm a little bit and say, hey, what would it look like if, if you took the lead in this meeting, right? What would it look like if you were a little bit more proactive? What would it look like? And so all we're doing— B plus equals P— again, all we're doing is we're just— if 5 is the average, can we get to 6? If 6 is the average, can we get to 8? If 8 is the average, can we get to 10? And so it's those micro— it's those micro gains, it's those micro challenges that little incremental changes over time become giant changes. In the future. And so, it's again, like, make the, you know, take the complex and make it simple. Take the big and make it small.

All great lessons. Yeah. And I think about my time in college, I ran a house painting business for a couple of years, and I had to do a lot of door-to-door sales. And that was the focus, was how many doors can you knock on, not how many yeses can you get.

Yeah.

And over time, you would realize it takes 100 doors to get 1 appointment. set. And so the goal was to knock on 500 doors, not to set 5 appointments. And you knew that every no or every doorbell that you would ring and nobody would answer, that's part of getting closer to a yes. It's just part of the process.

Yeah, exactly. And then you find the game within the game, right? Instead of, like, instead of focusing on the outcome, which is, oh, I need to get— turn this into an appointment or turn this into a yes, like, the game within the game is, hey, Typically, typically they only allow me to ask 1 or 2 questions before they close the door on me, right? Hey, can I get to, can I get to 3 or 4 questions, right? Can I, can I start to improve like my process, right? Can I start to build a deeper connection with them? If I start to focus on the connection instead of the sale, now the connection shifts my attention again off of the outcome into what are the actual step-by-step behaviors. that I'm doing. Again, the process, it's all about refining our process with anything which leads to outcomes. Again, if I'm working with a soccer player and I say, hey, what's your— what are you trying to do? They're like, they're like, score goals. I was like, no, scoring goals is the outcome. What are the 2 or 3 behaviors that you need to do that's going to lead to goals? Well, I need to create space, I need to get on the ball, I need to get shots, right? So what should you be focused on? Creating space, getting on the ball, getting shots. If I'm a salesperson, Right? What do you want to do? I want to convert into sales. No, no, no, that's the outcome. What do you need to do to convert into sales? Oh, I need to, I need to ask a really thoughtful question, right? I need to find out what their pain point is, right? Then I really need to see if I can solve their problem, right? Focus on those processes, the outcomes will take care of themselves.

Yeah, with the door knocking, the game within the game, we would always try to get a homeowner to say yes to something first. And, uh, so that was one of the games is how many yeses can you get before you ask for the appointment? The more yeses you could get them to commit to— hey, can I use your bathroom? Yes. Can I have a glass of water? Yes.

Yeah.

Uh, can you come out and take a look at the side of your house with me? Yes. And then you're just— you're getting closer. Or if, if we were knocking on doors with— I had a couple of other people on my team, the goal would be To tell a joke to each other, to lighten the mood, to get ourselves laughing right as we walked up to the door so that the homeowner would ask us about the joke, and then we could kind of engage them in our little inner conversation. And those things, I look back on them fondly. It was a terrifying time in my life because I had a lot of social anxiety, but it was through the thousands of doors that I knocked that I, I was able to, I think, Yeah. Yeah, get the repetition with the courage, right? It's not that the fear ever went away, it's just that—

And that's it. Yeah. And if you look back now, like, right, you knocked on thousands of doors. Where did the confidence come from? You didn't have the confidence on the front end, right? The confidence came from doing the work. The confidence came from every door that you knocked on gave you a little bit more confidence. Why? Because it gave you a little more experience, right? Competence tends to lead to confidence, but not always. You can be the most competent person in the world And still be nervous. There's a great, you know, Mikaela Shiffrin interview with Lewis Howes, right? I mean, one of the best Super-G skiers in the world. And she goes, yeah, on a confidence level, she goes, I'm maybe a 2. And he's like, what? She's like, yeah. She goes, I might not be a pop— I would have included this in the book, but I found it after, right? She goes, yeah. She goes, unpopular, but I don't tend to have a lot of confidence. And Lewis is like blown away, but then she articulates it. She goes, yeah, I don't really think I need it. Right. She recognizes that it's not about confidence, but does she do the work every day? Does she do the preparation? Does she focus on the right things? Yes. So whether she feels confident or not, it doesn't matter. It's about the competence. Are we spending time building the competence, building our experience, doing the reps, doing the work, Focusing on the right things. And, and, and again, I talk a little bit in the book, the difference between belief and confidence, right? Confidence is a feeling that comes and goes. Belief is— belief is based on substance.

Belief is steady.

It's steady. Like, why do I believe in myself? Because I've done the work. Why do I believe in myself? Because I've done it before. And again, I know before we started recording, but I was just working with a You know, one of my college soccer players this morning, and he doesn't have a lot of confidence because he hasn't played a lot recently. I said, wait, do you believe in yourself? He goes, absolutely. Right? I said, yeah, have you been doing all the work all season, day in and day out training? He's like, yeah, I've been doing all the work. I was like, yes, you've been doing the work. You've been doing the work. When you step on the field this weekend, you're going to be ready to go because you've been doing the work. Don't worry about confidence. Focus on the right behaviors. Right. And so I think if we start to, you know, I'm not anti-confidence, I just feel like we've put so much unnecessary attention on it. And we've overweighted it to the point that we've stopped people from, from actually having courage because they think they need to have confidence first.

I was confirming on my other screen over here, but one of our mutual favorite authors is Steven Pressfield. He has a book titled Do the Work.

Yes, yes. I've read it. I love it. I know it's an extension of— in the War of Art series. Doing the work is about being a pro, right? Difference between a pro and an amateur. The pro does the work regardless of how they feel. That was so huge to me when I read The War of Art, Nick. It was like, an amateur only does the work when they feel like it. A professional does the work every day. What does he say? He goes— he makes a joke. He goes, yeah. He goes, I He goes, I only— he goes, I only write when I— when I'm inspired. And he goes, and I'm inspired every day from 10 AM to 2 PM, right? Yeah, it's like, no, like, I do the work. Do I feel great today? No, I do the work. Do I feel awesome today? Yes, I do the work. Do I feel distracted today? Yes, I do the work. And it's that— it's that commitment to doing the work that creates the results regardless of how we feel.

So, oh yeah, he references Pressfield. Yeah, he's amazing. He references like a Michael Jordan or a Kobe Bryant. They play injured, they play sick. Uh, there's the famous flu game. I mean, yeah, they just, they do the work regardless of how they feel. There's also another metaphor that Pressfield talks about a lot. He uses the, the metaphor of a tree and a big tall tree in the middle of a field. The taller the tree, the taller the shadow, and the shadow is the resistance. So the bigger your goal, the bigger your aspirations, the more resistance you're going to feel, the more fear there will be. And so whether you're an athlete or you're a professional in any way, shape, or form, it's important that— I guess it's important to do it anyway. Do the work, you know, Bill Belichick, do your job.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think that's, that's the through line for today's conversation so far.

Yeah. And I love the analogy of the tree and the shadow as well. Because, you know, whenever I'm working with someone, I have to remind them, I was like, listen, like, you're so focused on this benchmark right now, what's going to happen when you reach that benchmark? Are you going to be satisfied? And they're gonna be like, well, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna wanna, I'm gonna wanna up it. Yeah. And that's the tree. As we grow and we get bigger, the shadow gets bigger. So the fear never goes away, because we keep raising our level of expectations with the, with the level of success that we have. So it's actually the shadow. The fear isn't a bad thing. It's—

it—

and it can be a very motivating— it can be a very motivating thing, right? With Limitless Minds, we love to say that pressure is a privilege, right? That's the— it's the last placard that people see when they walk out on center court. Billie Jean— Billie Jean King's quote. That's what they see before walking out on Arthur Ashe Stadium. Pressure is a privilege. That shadow of pressure means that we're growing in a way with greater pressure, greater expectation. It's a, it's a bigger opportunity to have a bigger impact. Why? Because you've earned the opportunity. You're growing. Therefore, the pressure, the shadow, the expectation is growing as well. It's, it's a proof of your success. And so we can embrace it and just accept it and say, yeah, this is actually evidence that I'm doing the right thing. And, uh, and that means that what we're doing is actually Important, and so usually those nerves we've talked about those nerves pressure. It means that we're doing something that's important.

Now, what about for an audience member listening or watching today, Travis, who hasn't felt fear in a while? I mean, it's not like we have a saber-toothed tiger chasing us very often.

No.

And you know, we've talked about some former guests on this show: Ryan Holiday, Lewis Howes, Stephen Pressfield. I'll throw another one out there because I saw a video of his recently, Alex Hormozi.

Yes.

Says that, yes, it's easier today to be successful than it ever has been in the past, but it's also easier today to be lazy and to stay inside of your comfort zone and avoid fear because we just have these devices that we can sit behind all day long.

Yeah.

That, that act as escape mechanisms. And so we avoid fear. What about somebody who's like, Travis, I haven't felt fear in a while. And what I'm starting to realize maybe in this conversation is that I'm not fighting a big enough battle. I don't have big enough goals or aspirations. Like, how do you manufacture some fear in your life and get started?

Yeah, that's a great question. I think this relates, you know, I have a few friends who have been longtime kind of like financial planners and have worked with really a lot of successful people over the years with their financial planning and taking care of their kids and things like that. And my one friend said, do you know the number of people that have sat in my office and they've got a ton of success in their life, but not a lot of fulfillment? And I think our society, unfortunately, Nick, has done a great job or not a great job, but it's done an effective job in really driving us towards success, but success and fulfillment aren't always on the same ladder. And so if I'm in a situation where I'm super comfortable and I haven't, I haven't been nervous or, or afraid in a long time, I would say like, okay, well, hey, like, A, what are you excited about right now? What are you really excited about in your life right now? Um, and do you feel really fulfilled? And If there's excitement, hey, I'm probably giving my energy to something that still feels like I'm growing. Maybe there's no nerves there, but hey, I'm excited, therefore I'm growing. If there's fulfillment, I'm like, awesome, you might have found the sweet spot. You're feeling super fulfilled, you're not nervous. All right. Hey, I might say, hey, keep doing what you're doing.

Yeah, right. That makes sense.

But if someone's not excited or they're not fulfilled, then I would say, what what would it take in order for you to feel a greater sense of fulfillment? And I bet you there's some nerves and there's some hesitancy behind that. And if so, boom, we've got our next step, right? Let's move towards that. Let's move towards that discomfort because if there's fulfillment on the other side of discomfort, that's the direction that we want to go. And I know I talk about it a little bit in the book, but comfort is great. We all like, we love luxury and we love comfort. But if comfort is the end goal, we're going to find ourselves in a situation where we have a ton of comfort and a ton of luxury without much fulfillment. Because what is it that makes us feel fulfilled? It is the pursuit of growing, of learning, of pushing ourselves over our discomfort, where we, where we get on the other side like, oh my gosh, this feels so good to take a break, or this great vacation, or this nice thing, because I've been working so hard to slay that dragon. But if we just, you know, we can only stay on the beach for so long before hopefully we're motivated by what's that next mountain look like. And not because we have to be constantly succeeding, but I feel like we have to constantly be growing. So what's that? What's the next edge of growth look like for you right now? And hopefully there's some excitement around it. So I love asking the excitement or fulfillment question.

That's a great lens to view your life through and just reflect on. So that's another great moment to talk to the audience directly. If you are— if you're able to pause the show and just reflect on those 2 questions, what are you excited about? What are you fulfilled by? That's a great gauge for where you are today. You know, I think about— I think about my year so far, 2025.

Yeah.

And something that I did this year that was a little different than last year was I competed in more physical events. I've done a handful of Spartan races and triathlons and HYROX events. And something I find myself doing and actually articulating at the start line of those events to the people around me, and usually I do them with friends, is, hey, how great is it to feel that pit in your stomach? Just the nerves. Like, how often do you feel this? Because most of us don't feel it every day, every week, every month. And it's like when you put yourself in those environments and your body is freaking out, like, what the heck are you doing right now? It's the best.

It is.

Because you feel so great the next day. Yeah.

And that's—

yeah, that's— and that's the fulfillment. The fulfillment isn't because it was easy. The fulfillment is because it was hard and you found out something about you. What I didn't hear in that list of things, Nick, is— wait, Nick, you're in the Boston area, right?

Yes.

I didn't hear you taking any classes from Improv Asylum, any improvisation classes.

Well, I wanted to talk to you about Yes, And because I think that's a beautiful— I actually did a 6-month public speaking course that had a lot of improv.

Yeah.

But it was down in New Jersey, not Boston.

Yeah.

Maybe you can get me in there.

Oh, absolutely. That was my initial training ground was shout out to Improv Asylum in Boston in the North End. They just reopened their theater after a flood, which is fantastic. Yeah. When, again, I think that part of the space where I really started, this is even before I got into the performance space, it was improvise, you know, sports improvisation, and then, and then into coaching. It was improvisation that taught me that it's, it's actually not about removing the discomfort. It's about being uncomfortable in the discomfort and embracing the discovery, embracing the unknown, finding it out, figuring it out together, trusting yourself, trusting your partners. And, uh, and just living in that uncertainty. Um, and so, uh, uh, yeah, so much— there's so much of this stoicism, there's still so much of this yes and, so much of this performance mindset that, that really improv kind of sparked that for me.

You know, it's a funny reflection. I haven't shared this on the podcast either, but I did this 6-month heroic public speaking training, and there were, there were 3 months of in-person performance training, essentially.

Mm-hmm.

So 3 days each. So it was 9 total days of this. And at the very beginning, I was not performative. And I think it goes all the way back to high school. I was this jock stereotype, football, wrestler. I didn't think it was cool to be vulnerable in front of other people. I had this kind of stoic energy about myself. Didn't wanna let anybody in on the insecurities or the fears. And then, so I kind of started off this Heroic Public Speaking thing the same way. And Michael and Amy Port, the two that run it, one is NYU drama, the other is Yale drama. They're very much into the improv world. They have everybody do a yes and chant to start off and to end each class. And by the end of it, I found myself very performative and it was super uncomfortable for me. But I loved the experience. I was able to release or surrender to that feeling. And you're totally right. It felt great. And I should be doing more of that. I absolutely should be.

Well, it sounds like you're doing plenty. It sounds like you're pushing yourself plenty. And yeah, I think for any of us, right? Like, anything that kind of pushes us outside of our comfort zone, whether it's physical, whether it's performative. And for someone like me, you know, I've had to learn, you know, I always love to say that, you know, introverts, like, courage for them is having the courage to speak up. Extroverts, courage for them is shutting up, you know. And so sometimes it's whatever aspect of our personality or, or our character that feels like, oh, it would be uncomfortable for me to lean into that. Like, yeah, that's probably a great area for you to lean into. Like, working with business leaders all the time, I always encourage them. I was like, listen, whenever you're— especially if we're talking to any young leaders on this podcast— whenever you're a leader, you have this enthusiasm that you want to share all your ideas, your inspiration. You've got so many good ideas that you want to share, but often at the expense of hearing what other people have to think as well. And so I always say to leaders, I was like, hey, listen, the next time you're leading a meeting, Instead of sharing your perspective first, make sure you, you hear from everyone else. Encourage everyone else, get their feedback so that their ideas aren't going to be tainted by, by your perspective. And so you use their ideas as a way to refine.

Yeah.

Use it as a way to refine your perspective instead of telling them, because you're already the leader in the room, it's already weighted. And so if you get their perspective first, they're not going to know what you were thinking. And so now you can kind of tap into that collective brilliance of the group, and it creates that psychological safety at the same time. It gives them, you know, it reminds them that they're valued, they're respected, you want to hear what they have to say. And so, so, but you know, when we get so excited about our perspective, we want to share it first. And sometimes, you know, it's, hey, take a pause, let's hear from others first before you, before you chime in.

I think that's great advice, and I really love what you just shared where for an introvert, courage is speaking up, and for an extrovert, courage is the willingness to shut up and listen for a little while. I'll probably steal that.

Yeah, ask, ask a second or third question before you do, well, let me tell you about my awesome story. Yeah, yeah, I can do that.

That's awesome. Well, Travis, today's conversation has been great. For anybody who is on the fence, they're like, yeah, I think I want to buy a copy of this book, but I'm not quite sure yet. Tell us one more time, who's the book for? Who's the target customer? And why should people get a copy?

Yeah, you know, I say it's for my younger self. You know, it's not, it's not a book for children per se. But, you know, whether for any parents or coaches out there, like, there's, it's definitely child-friendly. But yeah, you know, I think I really wanted to really reflect on the last 10 to 15 years of working with high performers, being a part of high-performing teams, both in the corporate space and in the athletic space, and really just kind of take some of those really practical examples and share them with with all of us, with each of us. And, you know, I don't think I'm a super complex writer, Nick. And so it's filled with really anecdotal stories. And I think really super concepts that anyone can use. And hopefully, you know, that idea more than anything, I think if we all just kind of understood that shift away from overemphasizing confidence and instead of Where can we be more courageous? And I think if we, if we, if we mentored our kids and we mentored our teams, and I think it put us in a much better situation.

I think so too. I think so too. Where can people go to buy a copy or learn more about you? Hire you as a speaker, as a performance coach? Where can people go?

Yeah, so my website or most of my contact information is liveyesand, L-I-V-E. So Live Yes And, Yes And being the basis of improvisation. So my website is liveyesand.com. Most of my socials are Live Yes And. This book, Confidence Is Overrated, as well as my first book, 3 Words for Getting Unstuck: Live Yes And, are both on Amazon. And I'm pretty sure there's an Amazon near you.

That is true.

There's an Amazon near you. And if anyone wants to follow up on social media, if you have a A follow-up question, I'm super responsive to anyone that reaches out. And so, happy to reconnect and continue the conversation with anyone, Nick.

And to plant the seed with the audience, I think this would be a great gift. I mean, the holidays are coming up here, a great gift for someone in your life who is ambitious and seeking more out of life. This is a great reframe. I'm somebody who's read a lot of books, and this was a reframe that I needed. and hadn't really read about before. So, Travis, thank you for the wonderful conversation today and for deciding to work with us. And this was a great experience, great book.

Yeah, I appreciate it, Nick. And thanks for, thanks for thinking of me. And, uh, this has been great. I appreciate it.

That is a wrap Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of Book Thinkers, Life-Changing Books. It would mean the world to us if you could write a review and share this episode with a few of your friends. I mean, these books truly have the power to change people's lives, and by reviewing or sharing our podcast, you're helping us make an impact. If you have any recommendations for future guests or any constructive feedback for us on how we can improve our show, please feel free to submit a form on our website. www.bookthinkers.com or send us a direct message on Instagram @bookthinkers. With that, I am signing off and I hope you have a wonderful day. Don't forget, go read something.