4. Bob Burg: Author of The Go-Giver

Hello, Book Thinkers family, and welcome to episode number 4 of our brand new podcast, Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books. During each episode, I interview some of the world's top authors, and as a listener, you can expect to discover new books, new mentors, and new resources that you can use to achieve more and live better. In this episode, I have the pleasure to interview author and personal friend Bob Burke.

Hi, Nick.

Bob co-authored one of my all-time favorite books, The Go-Giver, and nowadays he teaches the core principles of The Go-Giver to audiences all over the world. Our conversation during this episode touches on his books, the best way to find a mentor, as well as fun stories about how I was actually handed my first copy of The Go-Giver. It's a very interesting story. So without further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Bob Burg. Well, welcome, Mr. Bob Burg, to the Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books Podcast. We're happy to have you.

Thanks. It's great to be with you. Great to see you again, actually.

Yes, it is. For those of you that don't know, Bob and I have been friends now for a couple years, and I actually met him down at a Dunkin' Donuts in his neck of the woods in southern Florida. And We met up because I wanted to express some gratitude about your book. It has had a very positive impact on my life.

Thank you. Well, that means a lot to me. Thank you.

And so I'd like to start today's podcast with a, with a little story that most people don't know. So when I was graduating college, I was interviewing all throughout the greater Boston area. And I sat down for an interview one time at a financial office. They were selling life insurance and some other products. And the person interviewing me was a big executive with a corner office, and he had a big bookshelf behind him. And so the interview was going really well, and I could tell that he was trying to push for a hard close, like getting me to accept a position. And I was pretty hesitant. I was shopping around, seeing who I wanted to work with, and I brought up his bookshelf. I said, hey, I just got into reading only a few months ago. What are some of your favorite books? And so he picked up The Go-Giver by you and John. And he slid the book across the table to me. And he said, I'd like you to read this book. It's one of my favorite books. And when you come back and accept the job, you can give the copy back to me. And it was a, it was a great closing technique. And I didn't end up accepting the job, but I did read the book. And so how crazy is that?

It's funny. I appreciate that. And I appreciate him giving it to you.

Yeah. And then so since then, I've gifted this book to probably around 25 or 30 people. Including all of my family. And I think that the core messages are so powerful. So for my audience that hasn't read the book, can you talk a little bit about the 5 laws that you and John discuss in the book and how they can be implemented into our lives?

Sure. And the 5 laws are really based around a central premise, as would usually be the case. And it's a, it's a parable. So it's a work of fiction. though based on proven principles and with many of the stories and incidents within there, things that really happened to either of the co-authors. And of course, John David Mann was the co-author, really the lead writer and storyteller. I'm, you know me, I'm more of a how-to step-by-step one, you know, step 1, step 2, step 3. But John's a great storyteller. So I was really honored to have the opportunity to work with him. The central premise is really that shifting your focus, which is really where it begins, shifting your focus From getting to giving. And when we say giving in this context, we simply mean constantly and consistently providing immense value to others, understanding that doing so is not only a nice way, a pleasant way of conducting business, it's actually the most financially profitable way as well. Not for some woo-woo way out there reasons, but it really makes logical Practical sense when you think about it, because when you're that person who can take your focus off of yourself, not make it about you, but make it about the other person, looking for ways to benefit them, to provide value to them, to help solve their problems, to make their lives better, well, people feel good about you. They begin— they want to get to know you. They begin to like you. They trust you. They want to be in a relationship with you. They want to hopefully do business with you if that's— if it's appropriate, if they need, want what you have to offer, but they're very likely to want to tell others about you and refer and introduce you. So, uh, so it, it, it— so it's actually really practical. Um, now the 5 laws that, that, um, that emanate as a result are the laws of value, compensation, influence, Authenticity and receptivity. The law of value is really the foundational law or the foundational principle. And this simply says that your, your true worth in the business sense, of course, your true worth is determined by how much more you give in value than you take in payment. Now, when you first hear that, it's a bit counterintuitive. Give more in value than I take in payment. I have that That sounds like a recipe for bankruptcy, right? So we have to understand the difference between price and value. Price is a dollar figure. It's a dollar amount. It's finite. It is what it is. Value, on the other hand, is the relative worth or desirability of a thing, of something to the end user or beholder. In other words, what is it about this thing, this product, service, concept, idea that brings so much worth or value to another person that they will willingly exchange their money for it and be glad they did while you make a very healthy profit. A very simple example I like to give with just to illustrate it is, let's say you hired an accountant to do your taxes and this accountant, she charges you and we'll name a round figure, $1,000. That's her fee, literally her price, $1,000. But what value did she give you in exchange? Well, through her years of experience, know-how, wisdom, her ability to get to know you, her desire to get to know your business and what you're looking to accomplish, she's able to save you $5,000. She also saves you countless hours of time, and she provides you and your family with the security and the peace of mind of knowing it was done properly. Correctly. So really, she gave you well over $5,000 in value in exchange for a $1,000 payment or price. She gave you more in value than she took in payment. So again, you feel great about it. And she also made a very healthy profit because to her, it was worth it for her to, to lease out her time, her expertise, what have you, for a $1,000 But here's the key, and this goes back to focus again. The reason why this took place was because she wasn't focused on her fee. She was focused on the immense value she was providing you. And that's the key. It's why we say that money is simply an echo of value. Money is an echo of value. echo of value. It's the thunder, if you will, to value's lightning, which means nothing more than that the value comes first. There's your focus. The value comes first. The money you receive is simply a very natural result of the value you've provided. That's really the Law of Value in a nutshell. Now, the second law, the Law of Compensation, takes it a step further. It says your income is determined by how many people you serve and how well you serve them. So where law number 1 says to give more in value than you take in payment, law number 2 tells us that the more people whose lives we touch with the exceptional value we provide, the more money with which we'll be rewarded. Your accountant in the previous example did a great job of giving you more in value than she took in payment. So if you're her client, you feel good about her, you would do business with her again, and you'd probably refer her to others. And her other clients feel the same way about her. So our accountant is very quickly developing what we call an army of personal walking ambassadors. And as she continues to add that kind of exceptional value to the lives of more and more people, her income will continue to grow and Nicole Martin, the CEO in the story who was the sort of a mentor for that chapter or for that law, as she explained to Joe, law number 1 represents your potential income, but law number 2 is all about how many people's lives you impact, and that's your actual income. So we could say exceptional value plus significant reach equals very high income. Compensation. So that's law number 2, the law of compensation. Law number 3 is the law of influence. And the law of influence says your influence is determined by how abundantly you place other people's interests first. Again, this sounds counterintuitive, perhaps counterproductive at best, and maybe even Pollyanna-ish. At worst. Yet the greatest leaders, top influencers, highest money-earning producing salespeople, this is simply how they run their lives and conduct their business. They're always looking out for the interests of the other person. But let me qualify that too because I think this can be easily misunderstood and I believe it's very important. When we say place the other person's interests first, we certainly don't mean you should be anyone's doormat or a martyr or self-sacrificial in any way. Not at all. It's simply understanding that as several of the mentors advised Joe, the golden rule of business, the golden rule of sales is that all things being equal, people will do business with and refer business to those people they know, Like and trust. And there's no faster, more powerful, or more effective way to elicit those feelings toward you from others than by genuinely moving from what we call an I-focus or me-focus to an other-focus, looking for ways to, as Sam, one of the mentors in the story, advised Joe, make your win all about the other person's win. And as you do this constantly and consistently and develop a reputation in your community as doing that, you become that go-to person. You become that center of influence for others. Law number 4 is the Law of Authenticity, and this one says the most valuable gift you have to offer is yourself. In this part of the story, the mentor was Deborah Davenport. And she explained something, a lesson she learned early on that really served her well. And that is that all the skills in the world, the sales skills, technical skills, people skills, as important as they are, and they are all very, very important, they're also all for naught if you don't come at it from your true authentic core. But when you do, when you show up, as we like to say, as yourself, day after day, week after week, month after month, people feel good about you. They feel very comfortable with you. They feel safe with you. Why not? They know who they're getting, right? You know, it's— you're consistent. It's not a surprise. They begin to know you and like you and love you and trust you and want to be a part of your Your life. So if it's so beneficial to show up authentically, why do some people not show up that way? And really typically it's not for nefarious reasons. I mean, it's a big world. There's lots of people out there. So we always have to be aware of that, but that's not usually the case. Typically when someone shows up as less than authentic, it's because they really don't have the self-belief. confidence in themselves to show up authentically. They don't recognize their value. They don't understand what they bring to the table. And when this is the case and someone is not, doesn't have that kind of confidence, that's when they undersell themselves. They sell at much lower prices than they should. Uh, uh, they, they don't feel good about their business. They don't feel good about them. So, it's important to understand that really as human beings, we have 2 types of authentic value. One is intrinsic value just by being here, just by showing up, but the other is what I call market value. And I define market value as that combination of strengths, traits, talents, and characteristics that allow a person to add value to others, add value to the marketplace.

Right.

in such a way that they'll be financially rewarded. We all have these assets of value, as Mike Littman used to call them, but sometimes it can be difficult to embrace. Why? Because we're human beings, and as such, we're very emotionally involved with ourselves. We're too close to ourselves, okay? And we all see the world through our own individual lens. We see the world a certain way, and we tend to think that our version of the world is other people's version of the world. So when we're, let's say, really good at something, we have a certain competency that is really outstanding, we may not value it as highly because we think, well, everybody can do that. You know, well sure, that's not, you know, what's the big deal? I can do it. Everybody can do it. And it's not necessarily the case. And that's why it's so important to have someone in your life, whether it's a formal or informal coach or mentor or friend or someone who can really help you to understand the value that you provide. Um, it's also important to not be fooled by the term authenticity because I think a lot of people misunderstand authentic as being the same as, well, that's just who I am. Take it or leave it. Right. And which is, by the way, a good philosophy if you don't want to have any friends or make a good living. That's fine. But since most of us do not want that, right, it's not a really good long-term strategy or short-term strategy for that matter. No. Being authentic means you simply understand your strengths and weaknesses. And it means that, you know, there are certain weaknesses that you can ignore because they really are, they're meaningless. There are some you need to mitigate. And there are others that you actually need to turn into strengths if you're going to be your best authentic self. Just an example, it would be the person who says, well, I have anger issues and I yell a lot. And if I were to do anything different, that wouldn't be authentic of me. Right? And we know that that's, that's malarkey. That's hogwash. Right? No. What it means is this person has an authentic problem. Problem, uh, that he needs to authentically work on and improve upon in order to be a better, higher version of his true authentic self. So we don't want to use authenticity as an excuse to stay where we are. We want to use it as, uh, as a propellant, if you will, to move to a higher— Uh, our true authentic Nature. We also want to make sure that we learn and we read and we study. We can learn from everyone. Now, what we want to do though is we want to be careful about that too, because while we want to adapt the wisdom of those we admire, okay, we don't want to, or we want to make sure we don't adopt their personality. In other words, learn from everyone, adapt their wisdom, but stay congruent to your authentic core. Okay. And then, uh, number 5 is the Law of Receptivity. And if the Law of Value is the foundational principle, uh, the Law of Receptivity kind of brings it on home. Uh, this one says the key to effective Giving is to stay open to receiving. And this really means nothing more than realizing that yes, we breathe out and we also have to breathe in. It's not one or the other, right? Not if you want to survive, certainly not if you want to thrive. We breathe out, which is, you know, we breathe out carbon dioxide, we breathe in oxygen. It's both. It's not either or. We breathe out, which is giving, and we breathe in, which is receiving. Giving and receiving, despite the messages of lack we get from the world around us, and we really do. The world around us does not give us mixed messages about money, wealth, prosperity, abundance. No mixed messages. They are negative messages. I mean, read the news, hear people talk, learn in school, do whatever, and what do you hear? Evil rich people and, you know, people who are millionaires or billionaires did it on the backs of others. And well, here's the thing. There are— it's a big world. There are people who do things in a way that isn't right. Okay. But by and large, and to the degree that one operates within a free market economy, simply meaning no one is forced to do business with them. So I'm not talking about the ones who got rich through buying the influence of government through K Street lobbyists in Washington. I'm talking about people who've provided value to the marketplace and they— it's wonderful to make a lot of money. Not only is there nothing wrong with it, there's everything right with it. Okay? But that's not a message that we hear. realize that the messages we receive though, and we see it in movies, we see it on TV shows, it's in the books, we're— it gets into, into one's mind on an unconscious level in so many ways. And that's what's so insidious about it. It's not as though consciously we understand this. It's that, you know, when we're about to, let's say if we have this, this unconscious belief system that people who have a lot of money did it dishonestly. Okay. And you hold honesty as a high value and you start providing immense value to the marketplace and the money starts to come toward you, you're going to sabotage yourself. You're going to unconsciously push it away and you're going to wonder why all these bad breaks happen to you. Right. So, so Understand it's unconscious and it's not your fault. It's how you've been, you know, basically not you, but I mean anybody who has that. Okay. Which is a lot of people. So my suggestion is to make a study of prosperity. Yeah. Law number 5 in the book will do a good job of getting you started, but there are people who, this is what they do. They get people like Randy Gage, you know, subscribe to Randy Gage's blog and his Prosperity TV and David Nagel, The Millions Within, Ellen Rogan from Chicago who writes on financial, she's a financial advisor and specializes in working with women on money mindset because the mindset, as you know, because you study these things, that comes first. Now, of course, her principles work for men as well. She just specializes in women as a niche market. But, you know, she has a great book. People like Bob Proctor and, and Thou Shalt Prosper by Rabbi Daniel Lapin. One of my favorite lines in his book is where he says that money is a— oh, what did he say? Not a note of thanks. A Well, we'll substitute the word note because I'm not remembering the quote, but it's a note of thanks from another human being. I mean, that's, that's amazing, right? It means you provided value to another human being to a point that they willingly exchanged their money because they wanted that value more than they wanted the money. I mean, you know, that's how I want people to look at wealth and prosperity, but it needs to be proactively studied because all that negative garbage and lack thinking, we get it from all sides all the time.

Well, wow. All 5 of those laws have become foundations in my life and in my peer group. So, I really appreciate you explaining all 5 of those in detail. And one that I'd like to dive into a little bit more, you mentioned mentorship in the authenticity section. And so when younger people in their teens or 20s or 30s are attempting to find mentors, people who have done what they want to do and who have done it really well, what is the best way to find a mentor? And more importantly, what should we do when we're trying to find a mentor?

Yeah, you know, first, I love the question because mentorship is important. You know, when you, when you have a mentor or mentors or what have you, you're really creating the context for being able to cut your learning curve by years. So, I think it's a great idea. What I find a lot of people do though, and I think people always did this, it's not just right now with a certain generation or anything like that because I think it's natural that a lot of people will reach out to someone who they may not know well but who they admire and they'll just say, hey, will you mentor me? And that tends to be counterproductive. And the reason why is because asking that way, first of all, understand if you're asking this person to mentor you, many others probably are as well, right? So when you say, will you mentor me? It almost sounds as though, almost as though you're entitled to their mentorship, right? That it's not framed with the really with the proper respect for asking. It's almost like asking, you know, it's like asking somebody to marry you before asking them out on a date. You know, we've all heard that analogy before. A mentor-protégé relationship is just that. It's a relationship. And it really needs to be cultivated and approached like that. Now, that's not to say you can't approach and ask someone to— here's what I would suggest doing it more. And of course you use your own language, but, but it would be something along the lines of saying to this person, or it could be through emailing them or however it is that it's been established that you were on the phone or in person, what have you. But it would be something like, I know you are really busy. And so if this is something you either don't have the time to do or just don't have the desire to do, that's totally, totally understandable. I'm wondering if I could ask you one or two very specific questions. Now, when you do that, you've accomplished a few things. One, you framed it in a much, much better way, much more beneficial way. They take you a lot more seriously. You didn't just, you know, you didn't just ask, hey, can I pick your brain? Like, you know, so many people ask. You basically first gave them an out, a backdoor, which is very respectful. You said, if it's something you don't have the time to or just simply don't want to, totally understand. To the degree you give someone an out or backdoor, that's the degree they won't feel the need to take it. Okay. What you also did though, the way you asked is, um, when you say 1 or 2 very specific questions, they take you a lot more seriously. Because they know you're coming at this in a very wisdom-filled way. You're not going to waste their time. You know what you want to ask. They know you have an agenda. And when I use the term agenda in this context, I mean that in a very positive way, that you have an idea of what you want to ask. That's very positive. Now, you ask like that, as I just suggested, the chances are great this person's going to say yes. Now, Always? No, of course not. Different people do different things and they pursue their own happiness in their own way. And one of them might not be by giving advice to others. That's their right to do that. But you've greatly increased the chances of getting a positive response because most are delighted. Most people who are successful people are delighted to share with others, but they do want to know that it's appreciated and that the person goes about it in a—

Respectful way.

A correct way. Now, after you've— while you're speaking, by the way, I would also suggest when— before you meet and ask those 1 or 2 questions, to make sure you have researched the person thoroughly so you don't ask something the answer to which you would have known had you done your research. Okay? And they won't appreciate that.

That piece is really important because so many of these potential mentors for people, especially in the Book Thinkers audience, they've written books. And so if you can purchase their book and find the answer on the first page to your question, then that's not the right way to approach somebody. So I just wanted to highlight that because I'm sure it happens all the time to you.

Yeah, I— that, that was just so well said. Absolutely. And I mean, they won't respect that. They'll— it will just turn them right off. Um, not because they need you necessarily to buy their book, just because It's obvious you didn't do the work and you're looking for something for nothing, right? So when you're speaking with this person, you make sure you don't waste their time, that you ask your questions, you make sure to get off the phone. But before you end the conversation, obviously you thank them profusely for their wisdom, so kind of them, and you look forward to applying it right away. You'll keep in touch if that's okay and let them know how things are going. Now, that very day I would do 2 things. 2 things. I would write a personalized handwritten note of thanks to them. Just a brief note. Again, thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule. Your wisdom was invaluable to me. I look forward to applying it right away and will certainly keep in touch and update you and let you know how things— boom. Best regards, sign your name, number 10 envelope or whatever size. card and then hand stamp it. Put a regular stamp or commemorative stamp, not a meter stamp. Put a regular stamp on. Send it out that day. That'll be impressive to them. I'd also suggest that you make a small donation. It doesn't have to be a big donation. Don't worry about that. Just a small donation to their favorite charity or cause or what have you. Now again, how do you find that out?

Very easily.

You just do your research on the person and you'll find it. And make the donation in their name. So if you know they're an animal lover, okay, so you found out that they belong to their local animal shelter or whatever, do it there. Now, you do it in their name so that they'll be notified. You're not doing it to kiss up to them, not at all. You're doing it so they understand that you get the process, that you understand the process, that you are looking for ways to bring value to them in a way that's meaningful to them. Okay, now you've— a few weeks later, a couple weeks later, a month, whatever it happens to be, follow up with that person. It might be another question that you have or something they tell you, or might be, you know, whatever. And then over time, if a mentor-protégé relationship is supposed to develop, it will. If not, it won't. Don't be, don't be attached to the outcome. Okay, just take the right actions and whatever's supposed to happen will obviously— the right situation is going to happen. It might be this person's a one-time, you know, one-conversation mentor or, or 2 or 3. It might be the next person might be one of them, but then the next person ends up being a long-term mentor-protégé relationship. Who knows? We never do. Um, so, so I think if you approach it that way, your chances are much better at finding that person or those people who, who you can, you can ask for advice.

Well, Book Thinkers family, you should all write that down, listen to it again, And then thank Bob for that advice because that was amazing. So thank you, Bob, for that. And I have a million more questions for you, so we'll probably end up having to have another conversation later on down the road. But one thing that I'd like to ask you before we jump off— Hello, Book Thinkers family. A quick word from today's podcast sponsor. Today's Today's episode is sponsored by Audible. Audible is the leading provider of spoken word entertainment and audiobooks ranging from bestsellers to celebrity memoirs, business, and my favorite, personal development. And as part of Audible's partnership with us, we're actually offering listeners a free 30-day trial. This trial includes one credit good for any premium selection titles you'd like on the whole platform. So that's pretty much any book. including the one we're talking about today. That book is yours to keep even after the trial is over. Now, this trial also includes access to Audible's Plus catalog of podcasts, audiobooks, guided wellness programs, and Audible Originals. You can listen all you want, no credits needed. Now, everyone on the Book Thinkers Instagram knows that I love physical paper books. There's nothing better than having a book in your hand, scribbling notes everywhere in the margins. I kind of tear those things up. Up, but I've been completing an additional 20 to 30 books every single year using Audible by listening when I'm in the car, doing chores around the house, or while I'm on my morning walks or runs. You could take advantage of this free trial by clicking the link in today's show notes or going to www.bookthinkers.com/audibletrial. You will not regret it. Now back to today's episode. What books helped to create this wonderful worldview that you have? And maybe what are some of your favorite books that you've read in the last couple of years, if any?

Okay, uh, so here's where this is a just a great question. I really, you know, one of my old mentors, speaking of mentors, Charlie Tremendous Jones, who's gone now. People of my age would know who he is. The younger crowd would not know of him, but he was just a wonderful, a great man. And he always said— he's the one who coined the phrase that we often hear, the difference between where you are now and where you'll be 5 years from now are the people you meet and the books you read. And it was when— and this is really after I began as a broadcaster and then I got into sales. I like to say I grew graduated into sales. And as I was reading sales books, I started, I realized that I also needed to be reading personal development books. So those books, books like How to Win Friends and Influence People, uh, you know, Think and Grow Rich, The Magic of Thinking Big, As a Man Thinketh, Psycho-Cybernetics, all these really older books began to really shape my mind and my, my thought processes. And I, I just, It was wonderful. And I just kept reading and reading and learning and listening and studying and, and so forth. So, you know, those, uh, so many of those classics of the personal development field. One of my all-time favorite was written in 19— um, I think it was 1902. Um, it was, uh, Orison Swett Marden's Peace, Power, and Plenty. Very few people know about that book. It was referred to me by a guy named Danny Cox who was a, again, another— for a while, a mentor of mine. He was another speaker, uh, and, uh, he was a big fan of Marden's. He first turned me on to Marden's books, and, and that one of Orison Swett Marden's— Orison Swett Marden was actually the original founder of Success Magazine back around the turn of the century. So, um, but then you talk about more, uh, and then you talk about books like Benjamin Franklin's autobiography, written a couple of hundred years ago, a few hundred years ago. And what wisdom, what wisdom in that book, the autobiography. Um, books such as the 1910 Science of Getting Rich by, um, oh shoot, Wallace D. Wattles. Again, wonderful book. Uh, uh, 2 years later, a guy by the name of Charles, uh, Haanel, uh, wrote a, a magnificent book called The Master Key System. And all these books that we make studies of provide us with so much, right? So much wisdom. Then you get, you know, books like Daniel Kahneman's Thinking Fast and Slow. Oh wow. I mean, talk about understanding human nature and the way the mind works and how we do certain things. Without even knowing. That's right. You know, it's, it's magnificent. A book like Worldwide Laws of Life, uh, John Marks Templeton, founder of the Templeton Fund, who takes wisdom from all the different worldwide religions and spiritual teachers and, uh, 200 eternal spiritual principles and puts it in a daily and weekly format. I mean, just how do you— this is just richness. This is riches of golden nuggets there, right? Then you've got a book like Principles by Ray Dalio, the billionaire founder of the— oh my goodness, what's the fund?

Bridgewater.

Bridgewater Fund. Exactly. Thank you. And who's really a business philosopher with such wonderful principles about living life and conducting business. You have Tools of Titans by Tim Ferriss, where he takes all these amazingly successful people and distills their wisdom. Oh, it's just, it's absolutely magnificent. So you, you do this. And by the way, don't worry about the size of the books. Small books are Perfect. You know, there's plenty of great books that are just, you know, quick-to-read paperbacks. Actually, some of those are on the other side. I can't reach them from this chair. But I'm just saying, don't worry about the size of those books. Don't get intimidated. Just books for the sake of learning, of wisdom. A wonderful one that I read a couple of years ago, I had her on my podcast, Annie Duke. wrote a great— she was a world champion poker player, and she wrote a book called Thinking in Bets: How to Make the Best Decisions When You Don't Have All the Facts. And that book was so exquisite. It has helped me so much in my decision-making process, and it's kept me from saying things or tweeting things or posting things before really checking to make sure I had the sufficient information before doing so. It serves as a reminder. So again, all of these books, and some of them you're gonna get one idea and it's gonna be game-changing. In others, you won't learn anything new, but you'll relearn what you already knew and hadn't been applying for a while. So yeah, just books, books, and books.

Well, I— one thing that stands out to me is that a lot of your recommendations do stand the test of time. And that's so important because a good book should be able to be applied forever to your life. And as you reread those books, you'll learn new things. You'll add new Post-it notes to the book. And some of the newer books like Tools of Titans that you mentioned and Principles by Ray Dalio are favorites of mine. I'm a big Tim Ferriss fan and I read Principles and absolutely loved it. And so there were so many great recommendations and I'm going to listen to this again and write down a couple of the ones that you mentioned that I hadn't read. And so, but all of the older books that you mentioned, for the most part, I've tackled at this point. And so many amazing books and so many resources for all of us. And for members of the audience that would like to learn a little bit more about you or your series of books, what's the best way to get in touch and what's the best way to access all of the resources that you have available for us?

Probably the best place would be burg.com. While they're there, they can, they can go to it, they can scroll down and they'll see a bunch of my books and they can tap on any of them or all of them and get a free chapter just so they can see if they like where it's headed. Then if they do, they can always click through to amazon.com. I have a blog, a video blog I do twice a week now called Influence and Success Insights. So you can watch those if you'd like. Scroll down the page more, you'll see where you can connect with me on the various social media. platforms. And there's just, there's really a lot of resources there that you can grab if you'd like.

All right, fantastic. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show today. And I know that I've loved 3 of your other books that I've read so far. So we'll probably have an upcoming conversation in the future for everybody.

That'd be awesome. I'd love that. Thanks for having me. Bye.

That is a wrap. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen listen to this week's episode of Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books. To discover more books, more mentors, and more resources that you can use to achieve more and live better, make sure you check out our website at www.bookthinkers.com. There you'll find links to our mobile application, more podcast episodes, our shop so you can get some Book Thinkers swag, and our socials. With that, I'm signing off and I'll see you for next week's episode of Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books.