69. MJ DeMarco: Author of The Millionaire Fastlane

Hello, Book Thinkers family, and welcome to episode number 69 of our personal development podcast, Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books. During each episode, I interview one of the world's top authors. And as a listener, you can expect to discover new books, new mentors, and new resources that you can use to achieve more and live better. In this episode, I have the pleasure to interview author MJ DeMarco. MJ is a semi-retired entrepreneur, investor, advisor, and international bestselling author whose books have been translated into over 25 languages worldwide. He is also the admin and founder of the Fastlane Forum, the web's leading destination forum for startup finance and entrepreneurial business discussions. Our conversation today is all about MJ's books, The Millionaire Fastlane and Unscripted: The Great Rat Race Escape. By refusing to accept society's default template for mediocrity, the script, you know, jobs, 401s, frugality, give your life savings to Wall Street, et cetera, MJ was able to retire young in his 30s without sacrificing the good life. We touch on all of these subjects and more in today's conversation. So without further ado, please enjoy this amazing conversation with MJ DeMarco. So MJ, welcome to the Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books Podcast. How are you doing today?

Thanks for having me. I know it took a, took a bit for us to get on. We've Done a couple cancels and reschedules. So it's good to finally be here.

You know what, we have, but at the same time, it's given me more time and more perspective on what I read in your books. So I'm excited for today's conversation. For those in the audience that are not familiar with you or your books or your story, could you tell everybody a little bit about how things started, why you wrote these books, and kind of who you are today?

Oh, well, that could take up the whole podcast.

So we'll do like a 3-minute—

I'll try to do a summation of it. Basically, when I was very young, I don't even know the age, 12 or 13, I saw a Lamborghini Countach. And I boldly asked the owner what he did for a living. And he said he was an entrepreneur, basically an inventor. And that is what put me on the path to entrepreneurship because this guy was young. And, you know, usually when you're young and rich, you have to be a celebrity, you have to be an athlete, you have to be, you know, one of these fits, these motifs. So as a young kid, that put me on the path to say, you know what, I'm going to be an entrepreneur. You know, I started with inventing, but I eventually realized it wasn't just inventing. It was a whole basket of things within entrepreneurship. So when I was, I would say about 24, 25 years old, my identity as an entrepreneur finally matched with that of actually being an entrepreneur. I started a small ground transportation company on the internet. I ran that for about 10 years, made a lot of money during that 10-year time period, also sold it twice, which is an interesting story in itself. I sold it the first time and the company that bought it ended up going bankrupt and I ended up buying it back. Owned it for, I don't know, 4 more, 5 more years, made a lot of money again, sold it again. And then after I sold it, I realized, oh my God, I never have to work another day in my life. And I was only, I think, 37 at the time. And when I say I don't have to work another day in my life, I didn't mean oh, I'm eating ramen and beans and I live in a tent and, you know, I don't do nothing. I don't eat out. No, I mean, I was living a lifestyle of the rich and famous, you know, a beautiful house, Lamborghini, whatnot. And that's when I said, you know what? It's always been my passion to write books, to write. So I said, I'm going to start writing books. And my first objective was to write a book, how to basically achieve the type of lifestyle that I now enjoy, that I have enjoyed for the last 25 years. So that book was The Millionaire Fastlane. And it really, I did not expect a lot from it. It was more of an itch that I was scratching and say, hey, this is, if you want to, you know, retire early, live a great life, all the things you want and your dreams, this is how you do it. I put it out there, didn't advertise much. And that book has gone on to sell over a million copies. It's been translated in 25 different languages. And it was just written because I was scratching an itch and I felt that people needed to hear this. And nowhere in my journey was there a 401, there was no IRA, there was no saving 5% of my paycheck. There was none of that. And that's when I realized that the whole personal finance world is a bunch of bullshit to train people into this scripted mediocrity of living where you only get to retire if you're lucky, at 55 or 60 or 65, as long as you're patient and you work that job for 40 years and you give it all to the stock market. So it's like, you're not living rich, but you may die rich. I mean, it makes no freaking sense. So the books were a wonderful success and other people wanted me to write more. So I continued to write more. I own a publishing company now that is self-published. All these books, I had no support from the financial world, no support from a lot of bloggers because I go against a lot of things that they talk about. I've really been on my own with this. I'm kind of an island in an ocean of personal finance BS. It's been quite a journey. I wouldn't change anything, but my whole office is filled with people who have written me, who have sent me things, products, and said, hey, your book has changed my life. I made $1 million last year. And it's like, oh my God, it works. It's happening and people get it. And the challenge is that The Millionaire Fastlane, as some people say, it sounds kind of get-rich-quickie. So, you know, I've had that obstacle to overcome as well, but it has done well despite that title that a lot of people don't like.

Well, you're kind of selling what people want, but you're giving them what they need, which is kind of a healthy trade-off. So although it is a flashy title, I think that the content is, it's very refreshing because I've read a lot of personal finance books, and what you're talking about takes a direct kind of opposition to much of what you learn in those other books, which we'll get into in a second.

Sure.

I like how in the book you said during that Lamborghini experience when you were really young, you had wished that that guy had just given you a book, right? You were left with a lot of questions when he drove off. And so now when you're driving around in your Lamborghinis and people ask you questions, you have a book that you can give out. So Who is the target reader for this? I mean, Conan and I, we both, you know, we both kind of subscribed when we were younger to the general narrative of go to college, take on a bunch of debt, get a nice job, start investing in a 401. Thankfully, we were kind of hit in the side of the head and we realized that that wasn't all there was to life. So were we the target reader? Like, who did you write this book for?

Absolutely. You guys are the target reader. Its target reader is someone who deeply realizes there's more to life than getting up Monday through Friday and saving most of your money and giving it to the stock market and hoping that it continues to go up and that I'm doing this for 40 years so I can enjoy the last 12 years of my life, that it makes no freaking sense. And the fact of the matter is, is if you can acquire wealth quickly, there's a lot of things you can do. There's passions you can follow. There's a dream life that is out there that you don't need to subscribe to this 9-to-5 narrative. You know, I like to say every day is a Saturday for me. And it's been that way for 20, 25 years. I pinch myself every morning when I awake. I look out in the beautiful, my backyard. And I live in pretty much a mega house. It's like a resort. I never have to leave. It's like a permanent vacation. And it's just, it's all available to anyone If they follow the right rules, the right mindsets, because a lot of it's up here, because persistence means nothing if you're not right up here. Persistence will not help you fly when you jump off a building. It's just not going to work. Anyone that senses, you know, they had the discipline to work a job for 40 years and save and do all that BS, if they had the discipline to do that, they had the discipline to take the fast lane route and do something better and a lot different with a better outcome. Because I'm telling you, one thing they never teach anyone is the time value of time. Your youth is more valuable right now than you are at 55 or 60 years old. So it makes absolutely no sense to be able to work your butt off for 40 years so you can enjoy the last few years of your life. So time now is far more valuable than time later. And that's what the Fast Lane is predicated on is living your best life. Hey, today, now, maybe you can really retire 5 years from now. And I'm not talking about frugality retirement. I'm talking about I live in a great house. I have a dream car in the garage. I go out to eat 4 times a week. I do this. I do that. You're living a life of a king. And that's possible. People, I think, overestimate the amount of money it takes to do that. But when you follow a Fast Lane strategy, it is entirely possible.

So the millionaire slow lane is the, you know, subscribe to the 9-to-5, invest in a 401, get rich when you're— well, not even rich, get enough money to barely survive when you're 65. You call it in the book wealth in a wheelchair, which is a term that I've been using for the last couple of months now when talking to my friends and family. There's a book that I read recently, MJ. It was called Die with Zero. It was written by Bill Perkins. And it's a great complement to your message because he kind of woke me up when he said, listen, he said like, you can work your butt off until you're 65, but what most people don't realize is at that age, you're far less likely to be able to withstand traveling in different time zones and new foods in your cuisine. Good luck hiking Machu Picchu when you're 75 years old. You need to do it now. So there's totally an opportunity cost. Before I get into some of the actual strategies that you talk about in your books, I'd like to give Conan a chance to kind of jump in and ask any questions that he might have.

So MJ, I, I love I love the story. I love the diversion from, you know, the commonly spouted knowledge of, hey, work hard, save money, live on 10% later, you know? And I guess what my— so I'm kind of in that stage too, right? I'm working my loan officer job and granted, I love my work, but I'm curious if you were starting over, is there anything— I know you said you wouldn't do anything differently, but if you were starting over today, What would you do?

I would focus on value skew. I would find a need in the marketplace where it is lacking, and so I can skew some value attributes. Value attributes are anything that you're doing better than the competition. I think a lot of entrepreneurs, especially new entrepreneurs, is they want to reinvent the wheel. They want to, you know, invent the next Amazon or the next Facebook. And in essence, entrepreneurship is simply about skewing value, skewing variables that are perceived better by the buying audience, which compels people to buy from you. If you're looking for me to say, hey, I would, I would get involved in crypto, or I would do something like that, I don't have that type of answer. Literally, I have so— there's so many opportunities I see practically daily. And it's really based on imperfection and things doing— things being done poorly. And if you can skew 2 or 3 variables, you automatically have a business. Sure, it might not make you millions off the start, but it may get you stepping in the— it gets you stepping in the pond. This isn't that complicated and people overcomplicated it. And here's a, here's a good story. Someone just asked me, he didn't want to start a business that would only make $10 million. He wanted to start something Big, you know, and I, I can only shake my head at that because I'm like thinking to myself, and I didn't want to say this because I don't know, you know, how to heart he would take it, but you're going to be broke for the rest of your life. And it's because you haven't even learned to swim yet, and you're asking me about how to play, win a gold medal in the Olympics. Learn how to swim first. Then maybe you can win a, win a race or two in your local community. And he's talking about Olympics already. And it's just like that kind of— that's what I'm talking about up here. If you're not right up here, it doesn't matter what your idea is. It just doesn't. To sum up your answer to your question is I would just focus on deficiencies in the marketplace. You know, a lot of people think it's, oh, start an internet business. And it's really not that. My new book, The Great Rat Race Escape, they don't start an internet business. They start a product-based business. Based on a need. And I think a lot of young people, guys your age, women your age, automatically default to the internet. And the internet is a great channel. You need it for scale. But there's a lot of opportunity in product-based businesses.

In that book, The Great Rat Race Escape, I just wanted to say I appreciate the way that was written where you give the examples of, you know, the fictional characters, but then the actual concepts being applied. And with the fictional characters using those examples, it's incredibly valuable. And I haven't found a book written that way before, so I appreciate the deviation from the norm. Great book.

Great to hear it. Great to hear it. That's kind of why I wrote it.

MJ, our audience here is, uh, just like Conan and myself, it's 18 to 34. It's young professionals, most of which are employed in a standard 9 to 5, but kind of looking to take the step into entrepreneurship. And so, do you have a specific, you know, set of attributes for an entrepreneur? Is there somebody who's a good fit versus not a good fit? Or do you recommend that everybody should try their hand at entrepreneurship?

No, entrepreneurship is completely learnable. But as I was talking to Conan, it all starts up here. I don't have it on my Instagram page yet, but there's a chart that describes the differences between someone who ultimately wins a 1% existence, you know, a dream life, and somebody who's a scripted 99-percenter, gets up every morning, lives for a weekend. And there's a chart that if you visit my Instagram page in the next couple hours, you'll see it. But it really is the most powerful thing I've ever probably posted because it demonstrates the differences that need to be up here in order to make it happen. I would suggest people take a look at that. It's a list of probably about 30 or 40 things. You know, like for instance, scripted people think money is the most important, where, you know, unscripted, it is time is the most important. They think, oh, I need to make more money, I need to trade more time. Well, the 1%er says, well, if I need to make more money, I need a better product and I need to sell more of those products. So there's so many divergences there. that really can put you on the right path so that hard work actually pays off into something meaningful. Because I think getting up at 6 in the morning, Monday through Friday, living for that weekend, that is hard work. That is hard work. And the problem is you're working in that system that is designed for mediocrity. So I'm suggesting is you take that hard work, that effort, and put it into a system that actually can yield asymmetric returns. Asymmetric returns is I've invested 1 hour, but I've gotten paid 10 times, 10x. And that's asymmetric return. So the example I like to use is you put Usain Bolt on a tricycle, he ain't going very fast. And that's because he's been burdened by an inefficient system. And that is what people are fighting right now. They're working hard. They're pedaling hard on that tricycle, but they're not getting anywhere because the system is ineffective. And my books suggest to change the system, get out of that system and get to a different system that yields a different output, asymmetric returns where your life can change, not in 40 years, but in 5 or 10.

I love it. Those asymmetric systems. Let's tie that to the question that Conan asked, because in your books, you talk about money trees, right? Money doesn't grow on trees unless you own a money tree. So what are these money trees like and how are they related to systems? Because you talk about things like internet systems, books, real estate. How are those different than some of the other ways that people try to make money? Sure.

Ultimately, you want to, instead of focusing on trading your time for money, you want to trade your time into a business system that ultimately will be able to disconnect from yourself. And I think a lot of people confuse that with, oh, I'm going to, I'm going to throw a cheap ebook up on Amazon and now, and now I'm following MJ's principles. No, that's not it. That's not a business system. That's a lottery ticket. The business system, for example, my business system is my forum. I started the forum in 2007. There's nearly a million posters, 70,000 users. That's, that's part of my system. All the channels I use— Amazon, Audible, various publishers— that's my system. I have over 25 language translations. That's my system. So you invest in these things, and what happens is eventually you get to dissect— not dissect, but you get to separate yourself from that system, and that system continues to run while you're not working, you know. I'm not a big fan of Warren Buffett, but he has said something poignant in his life. And he said, if you ever want to get rich, you have to make money while you're sleeping. And that's the point of the business system. So, and the other concept with that I talk about in The Great Rat Race Escape is a specialized unit. Specialized unit is something that exists by itself without you. For example, let's see, this is my book. This exists without me. If I die tomorrow, this still exists. That's a specialized unit. It exists while I'm off doing something else. This podcast you're doing right now, when you post it up on YouTube, it'll be there for years. And yet you could be off doing something, skiing, motorbiking, whatever, but it still exists. So, the effort you have put in continues to work for you. And I call that system a polymorphic system. Polymorphic pay is when you do something, you put investing your time time in something, but that time continues to pay you. And that's one of these divergences in the chart I mentioned 10 minutes ago is that's one of the things that you want to do in order to achieve these asymmetric returns. I've been on the clock for 25 years. Imagine punching in 25 years ago and never punching out.

Wow. I love that line.

I mean, think about that. I've been punched in for 25 years, and that's why I live the great life I live because I've never punched out because I've focused my time. My time is valuable. I'm going to focus it in a business system that not only pays money but pays time.

I'm going to have to go back and write that one down. So you checked in 25 years ago and you have not checked out since because those assets, you know, based on your systems, they exist and they're being replicated and consumed You know, you, like you said, you could die and 5 years from now, people are still buying your books and reading them. And that's, that's an amazing thing, or contributing to your forums. I really love that. And by the way, for the Instagram post that you're going to put up, I'll make sure that I link it in the show notes. So if you're watching this 5 years from now, or you're watching it tomorrow, you can check out the show notes, get a link to what MJ is going to post. Okay. MJ, talk to us about the Law of Effection. I thought that was a really brilliant thing that you wrote about. It was It was very original, I think, when you originally wrote about it. So tell us about affection.

Yeah, very, very original. So much so that it was stolen by these cheap financial gurus that, you know, that they make their living selling $5,000 courses. Basically, the law of affection is if you want to make millions, you have to impact millions. It's simple as that. Hey, you know, all these people talk about they want to be a millionaire and billionaire. Okay. Affect billions of people. That's how you do it. Jeff Bezos, billionaire. Okay? He has impacted billions of people. Zuckerberg. You take any billionaire in a position of power and you will ultimately find that they have impacted people to the tune of millions or billions. That's the law of affection. The more people you affect, the more money you're going to make. And when I say affect, I mean delivering them value. Giving them something they want, providing them convenience, doing something that they love. Or it could be something that they don't even know they want, like, you know, case of Steve Jobs inventing an iPhone that nobody knew they needed to, needed to buy. So impact millions to make millions, short and sweet.

You just mentioned how some of these marketing gurus are selling that for $5,000 courses. I know that you've got a bone to pick with the traditional kind of like personal finance, but overall personal development industry. And I think it's an important conversation for us to have for a couple of minutes because I want to make sure that anybody that's listening to this podcast or looking at our book recommendations on Instagram or other platforms understands that we also don't want to promote bad, you know, bad news, bad gurus, incorrect information, you know, get-rich-quick schemes, things like that. So what are some of the things that we should look out for in this industry and And what are some of the things that you hate seeing?

Well, what is bad advice for me may be good advice for you. And we were talking about this before the show. And what makes me happy and what I want in life is very different from what you or Conan may want. So I can't sit here and say, well, that's bad advice, because if your objective is to work work at a job, have a boss, and do that for 20, 30 years, and you want to flush the toilet once a week to save money, and you want to clip coupons, and you don't want to eat out for the rest of your life because you want to retire early, you know, in this frugal, you know, shitfest, you know, that's your prerogative. And there's books out there that will tell you how to do that. And I can't sit here and say, well, don't read that, because if that's what you want, that's what you want. My book is about living abundantly, living a true retirement that is rich in abundance, going out to eat 3, 4 times a week if you want to, having a Lamborghini in the garage if you want to, living in a big house that makes your life seem like a vacation if that's what you want. That's who my message is for. And I'm not going to sit here and say, oh, don't read those other books because Quite frankly, your audience may want that. And, you know, it's not me to say, hey, that's bad, or that's not the way to do it. But if that's the existence, you know, I'm not an entrepreneur, that truly is the only way to go. So I'm not gonna castigate that method. Sure.

Well, there are certain trends I think that are happening that you don't agree with. For example, kind of just living this ownership-free lifestyle that's being pushed on us, right? That's a form of propaganda. You hear a lot of big names, actually, the Elon Musks and Kanye Wests of the world saying that they don't own a home anymore. They just travel with a backpack. You know, they're totally free in life. But at the same time, they're worth billions of dollars. And so what's wrong with that narrative? And, and why are there benefits to owning things?

Politics has, has seeped into financial advice. And the new narrative that is now being promoted on mainstream media, mainstream financial news websites, Yahoo Finance, CNBC, is you're going to own nothing and you're going to be happy about it. So, that's what we're seeing now. And this is where you see these articles of these people who claim they retired early in financial freedom. But here's the thing, they don't do nothing. They don't buy nothing. They don't travel. They don't do nothing. They live They live in a 12-year-old trailer. They don't go out to eat. I had to sell my car. I had to do all this. And they're calling that financial freedom. See, culture likes to redefine terms for you to suit their agenda. Folks, that is not financial freedom. That is financial entrapment. If you're thinking about money every single day of your life, about what this costs, how much am I saving? Does this exceed my budget? Does this exceed my stock market allocations for the next 4 years? Folks, that's not financial freedom. freedom. That's financial asceticism. You are owned by money. You are not free by money. And so the media is doing a wonderful job of putting these people on the front page that, hey, we live, you know, we're financially free, but I can only flush the toilet once a week because I need to save that money. Folks, you're being propagated. You're being propagandized. You're being brainwashed into this new narrative of You're going to own nothing and you're going to be happy. Now, there's a certain limit to that, of course, because you don't want to consume recklessly, but you can live abundantly and also be financially free. I live financially free. I go out to eat when I want. I drive what I want. I live where I want. Money is not in my equation. I go to the store. I don't look at prices. That's financial freedom. That is what financial freedom is about. Not thinking about it every single day of the week and then going on Twitter and saying, you're this, You know, I'm this financial guru who's going to tell you how to live the same shitty life I lived.

I mean, truer words have not been spoken on this podcast. I, I mean, Conan and I have felt this pressure, right? We're in our 20s. How real is that, Conan? How, how real is that financial pressure? And I mean, sometimes it gets us in trouble.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, extremely so. I mean, we're both at this point where, I mean, obviously money is very important to us. Our goal is to eventually get away from that, you know, to where we can live that abundant life full of choice and not feel backed into a corner. And it's very real. I can speak for both, you know, both myself and Nick. We're looking for that fast lane as well. You know, it's awesome to have the real-life example of someone who's done it and that you left behind a blueprint to follow. So yeah.

Nick, you mentioned the book Die With Zero. I don't agree with everything in that book, but it is a must-read for a fast laner because He really does a good job of demonstrating how time plays a role in our life. In my books, I say the importance of saving, of course, but I'm not talking about saving 10% of your paycheck. I'm talking about saving 40% of your income when you're making $100,000 a month or $200,000 a month or some outrageous sum. So you can use that money to leverage whatever lifestyle you want. But at some point, there has to be a turnover there where you realize, you know what, like for me, I'm at the back, back half of my life. And the fact of the matter is, you know, I, I need to start spending more money on things. And the truth is, I've made enough that I can't spend it enough unless I want to go buy 10 Lamborghinis or some private jet that, you know, will drain me real quick or something like that. But at some point, you have to make the turn and realize, you know what, I don't need to be dying with millions and millions of dollars in the bank. You can give it half to the government depending on what the inheritance tax is. So that's a good book. You mentioned it earlier. I do recommend it. Don't agree with everything in it, but I do recommend it.

Well, I'm happy you brought that up. If you want to get rid of some money and buy me a Lamborghini, then you will help my Fast Lane dreams come true even faster. But books in general, so in The Millionaire Fast Lane, you said that In terms of education, books provide the best ROI because they're $15 or $20. So I wanted to ask, what are some of your favorite books outside of your own? Are there books that you go to as consistent recommendations?

Yeah, that's a, that's a, that's a question I get often. Unfortunately, I answer it with stuff that's not related to business or finance. I very rarely read motivational books, books on business, you know, you know, here's how I started a billion-dollar, you know, I'm not interested. I don't want to start a billion-dollar company. So I'm not reading it. That may be a good read for your readers. I'm more, I've been reading more spiritual stuff. The Untethered Soul by Michael Singer, Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle. That book's like 10 years old. It's a great book. Hawkins, Letting Go, more, more of a spiritual type of thing, health things, because I'm getting older and trying to live healthier. So I can't give you a book that I would pass on to somebody other than my own, which is why I write them, is because I feel that the market is not being served with that type of information, which is why I write it.

No, I'm happy you answered the question that way. I mean, spirituality and kind of like broader life perspective stuff is probably my favorite subject to read about. So books like— well, there's, there's a million of them, we don't need to get into all of them. And also health-related books, like that's another one of my favorite subjects. I mean, biohacking, and just kind of like having better data and understanding your body. Like, those are all things that I really enjoy reading as well. So those are the things that you're reading nowadays. Like, when you, when you go to choose a book, is there a specific intention for it? Are you kind of just getting your book recommendations from, from friends and family? And hello, Book Thinkers family! A quick word from today's podcast sponsor. Today's episode is sponsored by Audible. Audible is the leading provider of spoken word entertainment and audiobooks ranging from bestsellers to celebrity memoirs, business, and my favorite, personal development. And as part of Audible's partnership with us, we're actually offering listeners a free 30-day trial. This trial includes 1 credit good for any premium selection titles you'd like on the whole platform. So that's pretty much any book, including the one we're talking about today. That book is yours to keep even after the trial is over. Now, this trial also includes access to Audible's Plus catalog of podcasts, audiobooks, guided wellness programs, and Audible Originals. You can listen all you want, no credits needed. Now, everyone on the Book Thinkers Instagram knows that I love physical paper books. There's nothing better than having a book in your hand, scribbling notes everywhere in the margins. I kind of tear those things up. But I've been completing an additional 20 to 30 books every single year using Audible by listening when I'm in the car, doing chores around the house, or while I'm on my morning walks or runs. You could take advantage of this free trial by clicking the link in today's show notes or going to www.bookthinkers.com/audibletrial. You will not regret it. Now back to today's episode.

Kind of both. I have an unscripted text network where I text out motivational bits 2, 3 times a week to a group of people, and sometimes they, they can contact me that way too. It's two ways, it's not just one way. So I get a lot of book recommendations that way. A lot of time it comes from my wife. She sends me, hey, I'm reading this book because she's, she's really into that stuff as well. So she's kind of the gatekeeper, say, hey, you want to read this? A lot of, a lot of people on the forum, there's an actual thread on the forum, I think it's 20 pages long and 10 years long. People say, hey, I'm reading this book, you guys got to read it. So because it's on the forum, the Fastlane forum, usually it's Fastlane related. So I, I have no shortage of conduits, uh, for finding books, and it comes from people I respect who are living Fast lane lives like myself.

Yeah, I love it. Well, there are a couple more metaphors that I want to have you kind of expand on that I really took away from this book. I, I learned in metaphors. And so when you say things like home runs can't be hit from the dugout, or brick walls aren't meant to keep you in, I really like that kind of stuff. Where do those come from? Are they original thoughts? Do you kind of steal and modify from other places and include them in your books? How does that kind of writing process work I do not steal other people's thoughts.

Um, there's a chance I might have read it somewhere 20 years ago and it planted a seed and I might have took something, but mostly everything I write, if it comes from someone else and I know who it comes from, I will say, hey, you know, so-and-so said this and it's a great— it's a great analogy. Analogy and metaphor is the best way to change someone's mind and to open up a new paradigm shift. You know, like the example I gave earlier was this guy is like, I don't wanna, you know, make only $10 million. You know, he hasn't made a dollar yet. So I'm like, okay, so you haven't learned how to swim yet, but you wanna go to the Olympics? And that's the type of thing that can make someone go, yeah, that doesn't make much sense, does it? So maybe I'm going about this the wrong way.

Yeah. Well, in the Unscripted series, like what Conan was kind of mentioning earlier, is it's nice to read about these principles being applied to somebody else because it almost feels like a metaphor of a real kind of business lesson. Whereas with The Millionaire Fastlane, I would imagine that some readers pick up that book and they go, wow, MJ's just taking shot after shot at me and it doesn't feel very good. But if you're applying those lessons to a fictional character, then you can kind of digest it from like a third-party perspective. So that's fun.

Sure. Yeah, The Great Rat Race Escape is actually a full-length novel and interspersed into that novel, you find various principles and strategies relating to their story about what they're going through, their struggles, because they— a lot of things that we talked about, they actually deal with it, you know, getting up in the morning and I just can't make headway, and, and all the water heater broke, and now we can't afford this, and how do we start a business when we got a kid coming, and, you know, all those kind of trials that everyone has to go through. And that's one thing that people don't understand is Everyone goes through that. The people who don't want to go through it don't succeed. And it's just a part of, it's a part of life. Yeah.

Well, I've got one final question. But first, I want to open the floor. Conan, I see that you got your hand raised. What are you thinking?

Yeah, I was jumping in here for a second. Yeah, just to piggyback on what you said, MJ, oftentimes we as people who are aspiring to do these things, we hear about the end result. But your approach is to focus on I love that in Unscripted, it's all about the process. And there's very— there's only a little bit given about the end result, you know, the exit, which is what we all hear about most of the time. And so that paradigm shift to focus on process rather than result, I think, is very important no matter what you do. It's changed the way that I approach my job. I focus on the process, the people that I'm helping, rather than the end result. I really loved that. Just wanted to share that. Throw that in there again, chiming in.

That's another metaphor. People want to lose weight. Well, eating one piece of broccoli is not going to help you lose weight. It's a part of a process, yes, but all that weight you put on has happened over 30 years. That was the process. Now you're looking for an event to get rid of it, and, well, I'm gonna have broccoli for lunch, ain't gonna change it. You need the same type of process to take it off that, that put it on. So that's, that's a similar metaphor with relation to event versus process. And as culture, society wants us to be event-driven, and that is not good for personal success. You have to be process-driven.

Yeah, especially if you like reach that milestone and then you kind of get that what's next kind of like gaping hole inside of, okay, well, it wasn't as fulfilling as I thought. Well, MJ, I've got, I've got one final question here. So So for listeners, and I'm kind of asking this for myself in full transparency, and I'm on a decent Fastlane path right now, but I'm looking to go a little bit faster. So for people who are stuck in the 9 to 5 and they read your book and they get excited about it, or for people like myself who are starting their Fastlane journey right now, how can we stay in that headspace? Because it's very easy to allow society's pressure to kind of like crush us back into where we were before. And your book, it offers so much excitement. It's so very clear, but then the execution piece is like, sometimes it's a little bit overwhelming. And so what sorts of advice do you have for people around staying in the headspace, the fast lane headspace?

Expectations. You have to really understand that it's kind of like what we just talked about. Hey, I need to lose this 50 pounds. Well, you have to have the right expectations. You know, if you're expecting to lose 20 pounds in the first week, you're going to be disappointed. Everything is that process, and as long as you say to yourself, you know, am I better today than I was yesterday? You're making progress, and it's important to attack things that move the meter and not get lost in certain minutia that's not going to move the meter. And you know, I don't say this as it's easy because I struggle with that myself. But if you have the right expectation, say, hey, you know, I'm continually. Looking to improve, kaizen, continual improvement. And also be receptive to what— you know, not to get woo-woo here— be responsive to what is happening around your life. You know, what the universe is showing you. A lot of times something will come your way and you'll be like, nah, I don't want to do that, or I'm not interested in that. Maybe you should consider doing it because that's— I believe there's a certain receptiveness to what, what is thrown in your path that can take you where you might not even know where you want to go and might open up different types of doors for you. You know, perhaps someone you meet on a podcast wants to go into business with you or has an idea that it wants to share with you. You know, that may be something to consider where you— where your default inclination is to say, nah, not interested. Like, I get that a lot. I say, hey, I'm an introvert. I'm not interested in that. Well, I just shut—I just closed the door on something that came, you know, my way. So I got that from Michael Singer's book, *The Surrender Experiment*. I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, about surrendering to more things that come your way as opposed to fighting them. I was actually shocked how much that mentality, because you know I'm a control freak. That mentality has really worked well for me in the last couple years, and I'm—I'm actually. quite shocked about it because surrender and being in control are 2 different things. So I've been happy to say that I've balanced those 2. And so I think that's the great idea, is to be more receptive to what's coming your way. You know, you have a big presence on Instagram and what you're doing, so be receptive of what's coming your way.

That's great advice. I'm— I also tend to be on the control freak side of the spectrum, and so I actually just got a copy of The Untethered Soul. So I'm new to that. I haven't read it yet. But I think I do need to take your advice and allow things to kind of pass and, and not reject them so often, embrace them, allow them in, surrender like you're talking about. So that's really fun advice. Well, MJ, thank you for coming on the podcast, man. I think this, this conversation was really refreshing for me. I think when I listened to your books, they're so different from most of what I pretty much everything else that I consume. So I really appreciate the value that you provide to the world. Just like Conan said, I mean, for us younger guys in our 20s that are ambitious but sort of feel the 9-to-5 pressure, it's really important for us to be having conversations like this, listening to the advice that somebody like you who has done what we want to do and who has done it really well has to say about things in the world. So thanks for coming on, man. For people that want to learn more about you and your books, where should they go? What should they do?

Uh, sure. I run a business forum, uh, thefastlaneforum.com. I also— you can get information there to join my unscripted text network that is entirely free. Um, I do not have any upsells. I have no courses, no 5-figure seminars. All I sell is my wisdom in a book. It's $10, $15, depends where you get it. If you don't like it, get your money back. I'm not here to take your money. I don't have no seminars, nothing of that nature. So hope to see you there at the Fast Lane Forum or mjdemarco.com. And you guys, hey, you guys are on the right path. You know, I talk to a lot of young guys and I see winners. I see 2 winners in front of me.

Amazing. Thank you so much.

Appreciate that, MJ.

That is a wrap. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of Book Thinkers, Life-Changing Books. It would mean the world to us if you could write a review and share this episode with a few of your friends. I mean, these books truly have the power to change people's lives, and by reviewing or sharing our podcast, you're helping us make an impact. If you have any recommendations for future guests or any constructive feedback for us on how we can improve our show, please feel free to submit a form on our website, www.bookthinkers.com, or send us a direct message on Instagram at Book With that, I am signing off, and I hope you have a wonderful day. Don't forget, go read something.