91. Carole Hodges: Author Of The Menopause Millionaire

Hello, Book Thinkers family, and welcome to episode number 91 of our Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books podcast. During each episode, we interview one of the world's top authors, and as a listener, you can expect to discover new books, new mentors, and new resources that you can use to achieve more and live better. In today's episode, our very own Ryan Mannion will be interviewing Carol Hodges, author of The Menopause Millionaire: A Guide to Prosperity and Meaning in the Second Half of Your Life. At age 50, Carol's life took a dark turn from her daughter taking her life to bankruptcy and divorce, yet she didn't let that stop her from achieving success and being fulfilled in her life. Carol is a true inspiration and living proof that no matter your age or situation, you too can live a life of fulfillment and success. Ryan and Carol discuss finances, meaning, and the power of choosing inspiration over defeat. If you want to take control of your life and finances, this episode is for you. Just a small disclaimer that even though finances are discussed, we are not financial advisors. Please reach out to a qualified financial advisor before making any decisions about your finances. Now, without further ado, please enjoy this amazing conversation with Carol Hodges.

Carol Hodges, welcome to the Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books Podcast. Today we are introducing your book to our audience, which is The Menopause Millionaire, and I am so grateful to have you on today. How are you, Carol?

I am really looking forward to this. It's always fun to find out what a younger man thinks of a book like, like Menopause Millionaire.

It was definitely an interesting title to get behind, but I really enjoyed your book. And one thing I noticed early on was how self-development clearly has been a role in your life for many, many years, I think, because your language comes from a place of optimism. It comes from a place where you can tell you've worked on yourself and your being. So give us a little introduction to Carol.

Well, you're absolutely right. And a lot of the switch in my life came at age 50. And it was because right around then, the age of menopause, my life fell apart. So within one year, my oldest daughter took her own life and had a divorce and a bankruptcy and found myself starting over again in life. And I didn't really have a lot of time to step back. At that, that moment, I still had to find a job right away, not even telling anybody what was happening in my life. I was afraid they'd never hire me. They'd figure I was a basket case if they actually knew my reality. So I just showed up and smiled, worked 9 to 5, found a not too demanding job because I couldn't have taken any more pressure right at the time, but got right back to work. But I will tell you, anytime that you have a major intervention in your life where you're basically starting over, it causes you to go much deeper. I mean, people go one of two ways. I know people who give up at that point and say, well, what's— you know, everything fell apart, what's the point? But the other alternative is to look at everything and say, how did this come about? What was my part in it? And particularly when I was starting over again, what do I want my life to be? What is it all about? And I began to realize— the reason I wrote the book was I began to realize that by midlife, pretty much every— everybody will have stuff happen. It could be worse than mine. It could be, you know, not as traumatic, but you will have stuff happen where things don't happen the way you want. You could lose a business, you know. So that is the time that people do want to, to look. And I wrote my book with the idea that I don't know where the reader is. You know, and, and you're a younger person reading the book, but still they are questions that are good for anybody, which is, what do I really want in life and where am I going? Because I believe no one can really give you the answer but yourself, but you have to ask the questions before the answers show up.

Yeah, there was definitely a significant amount of reflection that I appreciate. I've had life coaches who have guided me in the direction of reflecting on things that I have always wanted to do or have enjoyed in the past. And I saw a lot of that in your book, which I totally appreciate. I want to share with our readers first, I don't view this book being solely for a female. I also don't view this book— Yeah, for a 50-year-old, you know, I view it as a book that anyone can learn from. I think a lot of the lessons that you apply or that you consider as a 50-year-old are super advantageous to people who are our age, my age. I'm 31, and there are things that you don't think about a lot of times at my age. So, I think whether you're 20, 30, or 50, this is super relevant. I just want to get that out there because I know the title is Menopause Millionaire, which may share a different message, but I think you Your book for sure is for all audiences, and I'm looking forward to diving in. So, thanks for joining today. So, you've got 3 parts of your book. By the way, first off, congratulations on being on CBS, Fox, ABC, NBC. I think you're in the Associated Press as well. So, congratulations on all the success you've had. It's only been, what, like 6 months? So, that's a lot of success in a short period of time.

Thank you.

And, and so your book goes into the life, uh, in your body, which I think is, uh, it has 3 sections. One is about your body, one is about your money, and one is about your spirit, all of which are very important. I did sense a financial undertone to some degree to all of it, which I think maybe has to do with your background a little bit. I wanna, I wanna give Paul a quick shout out. So, uh, you put something in here that says, God takes care of the details when you trust. And I know you have a great man in your life now.

Yes.

Uh, Paul. And I want to give him a shout out for putting us together because that's the reason we're here today.

Well, and that's why I'm with him. He's always looking out. He looks out for me in very many ways.

For sure. So let's, let's dive in. So when I read your book, I, you know, what I saw was a woman who was very successful, uh, or, you know, definitely had success in your, uh, let's say early adulthood, and then faced a lot of, um, challenges between, like you said, the bankruptcy and the passing of your daughter. It's, you know, you said that people have challenges larger than you, which I appreciate, but I don't really You know, there are people with challenges larger than you, but you have had a very challenging life and had a very challenging time. But to your point, I think a lot of people can relate with that. But, you know, that just speaks to the self-development you've done. And so, around that time of 50, you know, you went through the loss of your daughter, the bankruptcy, the divorce.

Yeah.

And it seems like you continue to carry an optimistic mindset. I know that I've been engaged with a lot of people who are around 50 who are now looking to change, and female, who are now looking to change their identity. I think this book could be great for them, but I think it could be great for a lot of other people as well. I want to start with money and you because I believe your foreword was by— what's her name? Daria?

Doria Cordova. Yes.

Doria Cordova. Yeah. So did you take the Money and You course?

Yes, I did. I took that in 2008. And I have gone back. It's based upon the teachings of Buckminster Fuller. And he really was focused there on both life On planet Earth as well as business and has so many principles that I follow today about business, about looking at systems versus people, that people are all doing the best they can, but sometimes the results don't turn out what you like. It's a good time to look at the systems and the communication.

Hmm. The reason I wanted to bring it up is because what I'm seeing in my network now are so many people talking about money and you. Do you think that had influence? And I know Buckminster Fuller was kind of the creator of it. I know that like Canfield and Robert Kiyosaki, people who like my generation doesn't really necessarily know Buckminster Fuller, at least I didn't. But I know that it's influenced a lot of the people that we now associate as great leaders in finance and things of that nature. So, Did that play a role in who you are and what this book shares?

Yes, it— the role that it played was it was one of the first times that I went through a course that was experiential learning. And what that is, you'll go in and you're presented with a problem that you're needing to solve. And you're given a set amount of time to do it. And generally, you're given a few other people to do it with. So you're, you're not on your own. You have to decide how to get along with people that you may not even know very well and make decisions that will demonstrate your values and beliefs. Then after whatever game it is, you debrief. And there is more learning. You have more ahas because there's an opportunity to say, oh gee, I have gone through some experiential games and had poor results at the end and recognized I was following the pattern I always do. That no matter how— that I think I have changed, But there I am showing up under pressure, going back to old habits that don't serve me.

Hmm.

And what's wonderful about that is that when you're open and you can accept that, you can learn in a way that is not as disastrous as having to live it in your own life. You can learn in a game that you would've lost a business with your decisions without having to actually live through that. And lose the business. So I love, I love programs with experiential gains.

Yeah, that's really cool. Um, I just, I really wanted to plug the audience into Money and You as well. Um, so the, the, the undertone of your book though, it does have an energy around, uh, how you view your finances. So what was— you said you learned that you had some destructive habits or patterns of thinking that got exposed during Money and You. What were those?

My biggest one was trust. And here I am responding. I had a family position where my parents, particularly my mother, did not trust people. So I made this vow when I was young, I would trust people. Well, I would do it in such a way that if someone was a good person, You know, I don't trust crooks, or at least I've learned not to do that. But you can still trust good people who don't have a good business plan. You can trust good people who aren't giving you any guarantees on your money. And I had to learn to ask better questions before placing my money, whether it was someplace something I was buying or doing an investment. And I learned some of those things the hard way.

Ouch.

But with reflection, I had to look back and say, okay, here was a good person. I'm not learning never to trust anybody again. I still look at a person's values before I will want to work with them. But I also have to ask, better questions so that I'm not disappointed, so I know what guarantees there are. And it's okay sometimes if there's no guarantees. Maybe you want to take a risk, but you have to understand ahead of time that it's a risk. I wouldn't put all my money into something that's high risk.

Yeah.

But just making the decisions you really have to reflect where you are and be willing to learn the lessons. Because when you don't learn the lessons, you can go through life blaming someone else that they're the cause. If they hadn't come into my life, everything would be fine. But you're still you.

Yeah, I think, I think the Wayne Dyer story about kind of that you put in your book about having To me, it came across as have faith that life to some degree is programmed and have faith that all these things that are happening are for a greater purpose.

Yes.

I really enjoyed that story. I want to quickly talk about though the actual financials because you, you gave some really great information and, you know, people in our generation, we don't have the greatest attention spans. So, I want to kick into that first. A lot of ways you can look at securing your financial future. And you mentioned Social Security, pensions and 401, home and— I love the home and retirement section. That totally woke me up. IRAs. I love that you talked about whole life insurance. What a blessing that could be if understood. Annuities, real estate and land. You know, you talked about bankruptcy a little bit. Which of these— are there any of these that you think are really worth highlighting for any age bracket, or, you know, maybe a specific age bracket to really dive into? I got so much out of a lot of what you shared.

I think the, the younger you are that you can purchase a home, which, as we've seen, it goes up As the price of living goes up, the house goes up in value. So that is a great thing. And the younger you are, of course, you could have the opportunity to pay it off. It also has equity in it so that as you go through life, you can pull equity out if you have other needs. So that would be one thing I would look at.

When you say pull equity out, you're saying taking a line of— it's a home equity line, right?

Yeah, a home equity line. Or yeah, some people refinance their mortgage. Particularly, that's smart when maybe you've gotten a higher interest mortgage. Our interest rates are going up right now, but which doesn't mean don't buy a home. No, if you pay 6% for a mortgage Now, well, guess what? Hang on to it, and as long as you can afford it, no problem that it's 6%. When the interest rates go down, refinance it. You can either lower your monthly payment, or you can even take some money out if that fits what's going on in your life right then, because maybe you want to— remodel something in your home, take money out and pay the same amount of money that you have been. So that is what the first thing I'd say for a younger person. For the older you get, of course, it's still generally a 15 or 30-year mortgage and you have to be able to afford paying it. And if you have limited funds, it's going to be less likely you'll want to do that. When you're over 65. Not impossible, but the younger you can do it, that's a great way to set up your future. And along with that, the protection is life insurance. You know, if you have a family, you don't want to leave somebody else with the mortgage. You can't pay for it. But I honestly, for a young person, would say it's got to fit your budget. So you can start out with a term policy, which is not that expensive. And then at the time that your finances change, a whole life is another way to put money aside that becomes tax-free in your future. So it can protect you, and later in life, it— that can take care of a whole host of other things.

Well, one of the things I like about whole life insurance is that you don't have to pay it back. So, you know, the, the, the fact that— so what happens, and correct me if I'm wrong, Carol, but this is my understanding, and, and I had only heard about this one other time, so I was so glad to see it in your book. It was almost like a reaffirmation to me of something that I need to explore deeper, which I think a lot of your stuff is that, right? A lot of opportunity to explore things.

Yeah.

To prepare yourself better with capital in your hands. But if you take out whole life insurance, and let's say you have a million-dollar policy you're backing, you have, you know, the ability to take money out of that policy and spend it. And what'll happen is your beneficiary just won't see that money that you borrowed, but they still will see the remainder of your policy.

Yeah.

So, I mean, what— I mean, I never believed in like Giving— I never grew up having my mother give me money. I always worked for it, and I appreciate that. I'm gonna have my kids work for their money. And so I never, like, looked at it as having to give a beneficiary a lot of my money. So the whole life insurance, I think, is a great policy to be able to infuse yourself with capital if you need it. And it's almost—

Yeah.

You know, as long as you qualify, it's such a great idea. And money's all about In and out, right? How fast can you move it?

And that's— you bring up qualifying. The younger and healthier you are, the cheaper the insurance is. And I have people over 70 calling me for insurance. And guess what? A good number of them, they're uninsurable. They have issues and it's a little too late. It's like getting insurance for your car after you've had a crash. It's not going to work.

Well, let's, let's talk about that age bracket. Most of the age in our community, I think, is more in the 30 range. But for people who are 60 and 70, there's other options. So one of the things you mentioned was borrowing against like a 401. You know, what would you suggest potentially for people who are Well, now it depends.

Are you referring to if they need some cash or—

I appreciate your question. Yeah, just things that you can explore, you know, in that age bracket to maybe infuse yourself with a little bit of capital during challenging times or secure your financial future a little bit better.

Yeah, well, to secure your future, by that point you really need to do an inventory Actually find out what your Social Security status is, especially for women. You have to have contributed for at least ten years, or you can take part of your husband's if maybe you were a full-time homemaker and you stayed home and you were the mom and you did all of that. You can still get Social Security, but it's a portion of your husband's. Now, for a woman who maybe is coming back into. the workforce later in life, you want to work at least 10 years to qualify for your own Social Security. And it— you will get paid based upon the most you've earned in the top 35 earning years. That's how they decide what you get paid. So getting a higher-paying job In the last couple years will result in a much higher Social Security. But it's it's looking at those early enough that you can do something about it. Obviously, if you wait till you're sixty-five and you want to retire when you're sixty-five, there's not much more you can do except to keep working. Because if you keep working after sixty-five and you have income. That will factor into what you get paid as well. So your actual Social Security will go up if you keep on working.

It's pretty significant. You put the numbers in the book. Yeah.

Yeah, you can. If you wait till 70, and depending upon your age, it may be 72 will be the top age to wait until. If you wait longer, and you continue to work during those times, you continue to add to it, that can make a big difference. So you want to look at that and any other forms of ongoing income, and that can be royalty on a book, that can be, you know, if you have inventions. I know one inventor and he's got patents and ongoing money coming from it. So you want to look and say, what are all those passive income sources that I don't need to work for? And that's where, if you started earlier, your life insurance can be part of that.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you basically, I think, added 8 different categories of things to look at. Things like annuities I didn't even think of, pensions, you know, Depending on your age, that's something that as a 30-year-old that's worth looking into. You know, if you want to secure your financial future, what jobs can give you pensions later in life? Yeah. And how can you qualify for those?

And one of the things you mentioned too, if you bought your house earlier and maybe you've paid it off, you can reverse mortgage it. And what that means Is that they will send you a check every month. You can lay that out to the way that you'd like, and so yes, the money is coming out of the equity of the house. But if you live long, the value of the house is still going up, and you can't outlive that as long as you're living in the house. You can't decide I'm going to move to France now and get the money from the house. No, you actually have to live in the house. But that's another source that people often don't understand, and nothing's right for everybody. But I say, if that's a concern, you don't really quite have enough money to retire on, but you own a house, find out, find out what the particulars are for you.

Yeah, if you're going to qualify for a reverse mortgage, that's when I saw that concept. I've never seen it before. And that almost, you know, that inspired me to be more willing to buy a home knowing, you know, there's a lot of variables in buying a home, but just knowing that that could be an option to qualify for and being able to plan for that is really cool. I had never seen that concept. It's almost like renting out a home, but you're still living in it.

Yeah, basically. That's a good way to look at it.

Yeah.

You're creating that passive income stream, but you're still living in the home. I mean, what is better than that? So, I love your take on money. Is there anything else from this section that you would want to note in our conversation here?

Well, just to be willing to look at how money is changing because we are in a time of tremendous change and cryptocurrency is coming in. And I've been involved in that for a number of years. I still consider it's High risk. It jumps up, it goes down. And if, you know, if you get depressed seeing that you put money into something and now it's worth half of that, if that's an emotional down for you, it's probably not for you. You have to kind of put it aside and say, okay, it goes up, it goes down. I'm willing to risk a little. I'd say, you know, for anybody, I'd say no more than 10% of what you're putting aside. But something that it wouldn't destroy your lifestyle if you completely lost it.

Sure. Yeah, like, I— my, my profile picture is a monkey that cost me $2,000, and now I think it's worth $25,000. So, but I'm not emotional about it, you know. I, I knew what I was getting into.

Yeah, it's, it's one of those things, and I, I think we're going to see a lot more changes because the world with— well, the fact we're in 2 different places and sitting here talking to each other, this was unimaginable before. And the world continues to change faster and faster. And who knows, there will be people living on Mars, I believe, in my lifetime.

Wow.

So just be flexible and resilient. Nothing is set in stone, and it's all one big adventure.

Do you coach around financials or how to create an energy that optimizes your financial position? Do you coach at all?

Yes, I do. I do private coaching, particularly for leaders, and I come into companies as well because I believe that the The biggest issue is communication. And the first communication to look at is the communication you're having with yourself. Because we've all got that little inner voice. And most people I have found want to just block it out because it's usually pretty darn critical. And mine was at one time telling me too, all these things that I was doing wrong. It's like, that was really dumb. Why did you do that? You know, on and on and on. And what I began to realize is by listening and shifting that, I now have what I call my inner coach. I finally convinced my inner voice we're on the same team, we're in this life together in my lifetime, so why don't we get along and make life better? And I have found ways To do that, I just thought this was normal till I talked to other people and realized not many people do that. But it becomes so important to start there and then to improve your communication with everybody around you. When you're feeling upset about something, you don't need to blame anybody, but you could say, "You know, I'm feeling upset right now." Uh, honest communication and clearing things up is, to me, one of the core things that changes your life. And that's one of the first things I look at in, in coaching. I look at how people are communicating with themselves, how they can better find their own direction. I call it life change navigation, which is finding Your true north. And then just like sailing, knowing that you're— you don't get to go straight there. There is wind, there are waves, there are things that you will confront. But how do you have the resilience to be hit by a wave, to be buffeted by winds coming the wrong way, and still steer yourself around to get where you're going?

So the way you speak to yourself is honest and positive. Is that kind of the characteristics when you speak to yourself around money?

When I speak to myself around money, and, and I still have learning experiences, they're not as big as they used to be. That's a good thing. But I have the opportunity to say, Okay, I'm the one here, even if somebody else maybe misdated to me, or, you know, led me astray with a belief. But there were also 2 of us there. And I made the decision to go with it. So my discussion with myself is, what do I have to learn? What could I have done differently to have a different And that's where I learned, ask more questions. But that's some of the things, as well as I always applaud my inner voice. I recognized when it was criticizing me, it was keeping me humble and not that full of myself. And that's a good thing. But And now I— sometimes it will even congratulate me. It's like, good job. You listened. Good job. So it's a matter of recognizing it first. And I have helped some people who have dealt with much, much bigger issues, bringing perhaps shame from youth and things like that. And that's a willingness to say, I, you know, I get it. I get it that you have to be willing to go deep into yourself and then move forward from there because the shame is not you.

And you had no choice but to move forward. I mean, I think I saw that you found yourself in like half a million dollars of debt, right, while you're going through all these challenges. So for you, you had no choice but to be honest and look into But a lot of people, they probably skirt around that need because they maybe haven't been in the challenging positions that you have, to the degree you have, right? I mean, half a million dollars in debt is a lot.

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Well, and I say it's it's interesting. I say you know you can get the tap on the shoulder. You can get the two by head, two by four to the forehead, or you can get the Mack truck. And I ignored all the earlier signs, and I just waited for the Mack truck. Well, when you're flat on the ground. You have more time to think. So it— I don't recommend it as a way to go, I'd say. And that's where I find coaching could help, because maybe you can learn to listen to the tap on the shoulder, or, you know, take the 2x4 more seriously. It makes life easier.

Yeah, agreed. Uh, people can definitely, uh, accelerate or change our direction. I remember when I became an entrepreneur, No one told me, like no one said like, "Hey man, you might want to look at this, this, and this." You know, instead I just blew through the cash that I had saved. But you know, if I now talk to my stepfather about it, and he says, "Ryan, you know we should have had conversations about these things," right? I mean, he's helped me in so many different ways, but financials is so important, and it's so under. educated. There just isn't much financial education. So, when I saw your book having so many different concepts that you can apply to your life, it gives you the opportunity to, as a person, see what works best for you. But, I want to dive into the next piece. So, I loved how the third part of your book you talk about spirit and it seems like spirit is aligned with future. So, maybe it's exciting to look out into the future and Maybe that grabs your spirit a little bit?

I guess spirit came because I realized that I've gotten to the point I look at life as just an adventure. It's a game. We are here just as though we have the higher power that I believe was here before we were in our physical bodies. Body, and I believe we go on afterwards. But just as you and I might pull out a Monopoly board and decide we're going to play a game, well, we have rules to the game. You throw the dice, you can only go that many, you've got one piece, and that's how it works. Well, we're here as human beings, and we have a game. We have a body. That's our game piece. And it needs to be fed, and it needs to sleep and needs all of these things. We have objectives. We have money and love and all these things, contribution that we want to acquire in our game. And then we go, we roll the dice. Okay, maybe we get to go one step, maybe we get to go 6. But you never know, you could land in go to jail. The game's not over. The game is not over. And ours goes on until we, till we leave. But this perspective, I think, helps to understand that there's, when you understand deeply that there's more than just this life and today and what's going on with my body and my bank account. Then it allows you to have a little bit more fun. A problem is not forever, and even a success, a win, is not forever. But you can enjoy every moment. And that's where I find it's being able to be in this moment, in the now, because This is where the game is played. Not in my past problems, not in my imagination of my future, but still play it in the now. Have the vision to say, how, how successful could I get?

Mm-hmm.

You know, how, how big is my dream, whether it is financial, And there's the financial and there's the impact part. In fact, I recently heard one thing I thought was so smart, which is rather than just imagining the money that you'd like to have, and, you know, I'd like this much in the bank and this big house, all that, rather than that, saying, how big is the impact that I want to make? Because those 2 things go together. The bigger The impact you make, the bigger the success financially can be.

Well, Carol, I love how— I know we're talking about impact now, but before that you were talking about fun. And you, uh, in the 3rd section, you talked about having a wish list, right? I think 100 items on there and seeing, you know, and you could do some reflection to see what you enjoyed in the past. Tell me, in your wish list, What are a few things that you tried that you're like, wow, this is going to impact my life because I love this? And then what did you try that you didn't like, but you're happy you did it?

Oh, that is a good question. Well, first of all, what comes to mind was I've always loved the beach. Getting to the beach is— I just feel free. And so making time to do that. And years and years ago, I bought bought a timeshare that was in Paradise Village in Mexico. And they've got these little palapas. You can go out on the beach and sit under a palapa. And there's something about it just lights up my spirit. So, that is one of those things that I am very glad that I did. And just this May, I invited my family there because I was able to get a penthouse. And have a lot of family down, and we could all enjoy the beach. So, that's one that I achieved. And, oh gosh, you know, it's— I'm trying to think of one that I achieved that didn't really matter much. I, you know, sometimes when you do 100, there can be small things.

True.

Like, at one point I had a pink purse was on my list of 100, and I got the pink purse. It didn't change my life, but the, the beauty of doing that list is that you do it fast, so you don't have to, to think real hard as though, gosh, this is my wish list, and if I don't get it on here, I'm lost. No, no, no. Put everything down. You know, if it's sitting on the beach or a pink purse or owning my mansion, whatever it is, put it on the list. I still have places to go that I haven't gone that are on my list. But I look at it each year and say, is there one I can— that I can do this year? Yeah.

Yeah, I think it's really important. I harp on fun being an element of your life, being an element of your success. And I think whether you're 30 and you're in a corporate job and haven't really started to explore, the last 2 years I've just tried everything. And what you find is that some things you're like, wow, I really love that. Some things you're like, I thought I was going to love that, but I actually don't. But by exploring them, you can see that, right? And to your point, as long as you don't attach emotion to— I always thought I was gonna be a country singer, but now I don't. I realize I don't like the guitar. You know, it's not a big deal, right? Maybe you spent $500 or whatever on a guitar, which may have not been the best purchase, but you tried it. And a lot of times what's missing, I think, is that people don't try things.

Yeah.

So, I love how you connected that at the end of your book because as fun finances can be, once you're knowledgeable about it and you see all these different advantages you could have, fun is just, in my opinion, it's such an important element that my age doesn't necessarily try all these things. And people in their 60s and 70s, I find, often don't, and they miss those elements because they've been focused on the corporate world or, you know, whatever, whatever takes hold of them, you know, at that point in their life. So for you to kind of have this epiphany and to then share that is just— I appreciate it, Carol.

Can I add one thing to that? Because when I was your age, I was 30, I wanted to dance. And okay, some people could say, no, I didn't dance when I was 12, and here I am 30 and I'm gonna dance. But I began that, and then I got interested. I was introduced to musical theater, and I thought, that sounds like fun. So I went to my first audition. I bombed terribly. I was so nervous. I got up and my voice disappeared and I froze. Well, some people would say, okay, that's not for me. No, I kept making myself go to more auditions, putting myself through absolute terror because I wanted to do that. Now eventually, yeah, I got through it. I was determined. Why? I don't know. I just thought it looked like fun. But I ended up doing musical theater theater for 25 years and came across some tapes recently. The absolute sheer joy of being on stage with a full orchestra and breaking out into song and dance is some of the highlights of my life that have made me who I am. And I was doing it Because I thought it'd be fun. But it took me going, you know, fighting myself because it was so frightening to go to auditions. And nobody else cared whether I went or not. So when you have something like that that's driving you, yeah, even if there's some fear, go deeper.

Yeah.

When you really want to do it. Go do it because it's so fulfilling.

For sure. How can people collaborate with you? What's the— what would you say is the best way to collaborate with Carol?

Well, go to carole@carolehodges.com. The only tricky thing is my first name has an E on it, C-A-R-O-L-E, but it's just my name and you can find me online, Carol at Carol Hodges. And there's ways there you can connect with me. We can have a discussion, which is, I think, great. And I also have, if you sign up for my newsletter, it's actually, I send out Midlife to Magnificent, which is a guide to living. Great.

And one thing that you didn't put on your money section, I don't think, is debt restructuring or reducing debt. But I know that Paul, your husband, is great at that as well. So, I think from a financial perspective, you guys have it pretty dialed in. But thank you for allowing me to read your book. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to interview you today.

Thanks, Nick.

I certainly learned new concepts that'll help and support my financial future. And that's why I wanted to have you on today is to make sure that these concepts get introduced to my audience at Book Thinkers. So, I appreciate all your time, Carol.

Ryan, this has been delightful.

Right on. So, carolehodges.com, correct?

Yes.

C-A-R-O-L-E Hodges, H-O-D-G-E-S. And you're also on Instagram, so I'm sure someone could send you a message. Yes. And your subtitle is The Keys to Prosperity and Meaning in the Second Half of Life. Wow, look at that, huh? You can hardly see it. All right, Carol, there we go. Now it's in focus. Thank you so much for coming on today. Such a pleasure.

Thank you, Ryan.

All right, take care.

You too.

That is a wrap. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of Book Thinkers Life-Changing Books. It would mean the world to us if you could write a review and share this episode with a few of your friends. I mean, these books truly have the power to change people's lives, and by reviewing or sharing our podcast, you're helping us make an impact. If you have any recommendations for future guests or any constructive feedback for us on how we can improve our show, please feel free to submit a form on our website at bookthinkers.com or send us a direct message on Instagram @bookthinkers. With that, we're signing off, and I hope you have a wonderful day. Don't forget, go read something.