Breaking Free from Money Trauma to Earn & Save with Chronic Illness | Aqura Nicholson

A quick note before we begin. Some of the topics in this episode may be sensitive or triggering. Please listen with care and remember it's okay to pause, skip, or seek support if anything feels overwhelming. Also, the information shared here is for educational and informational purposes only. Coaching, like the guidance shared here in this episode, focuses on self-reflection and actionable steps., and it's meant to be therapeutic but not medical or therapy support. Your well-being is the priority as you listen, so take care. Welcome to Business with Chronic Illness, the globally ranked podcast for women living with chronic illness who want to start and grow a business online. I'm your host, Nikita Williams, and I went from living a normal life to all of a sudden being in constant pain with no answers to being diagnosed with multiple chronic illnesses and trying to make a livable income. I faced the challenge of adapting traditional business advice to fit my unique circumstances with chronic illness, feeling frustrated and more burned out than I already was while managing my chronic illness, to becoming an award-winning coach with a flexible, sustainable online coaching business. I found the surprisingly simple steps to starting and growing a profitable business without compromising my health or my peace. Since then, I've helped dozens of women just like you learn how to do the same. If you're ready to create a thriving business that aligns with your lifestyle and wellbeing, you're in the right place. Together, we're shifting the narrative of what's possible for women with chronic illness and how we make a living. This is Business with Chronic Illness. Hello everyone. I'm so excited about this episode with Akira, our money coach, our expert on money, I should say. I'm excited to have her on. If you've been following me on Instagram, you know we've done a live recently and I just thought we should have more conversation about money. I don't know about all of you who are listening, but one of the biggest questions I feel like a lot of my clients have with me and I've even had with my coach is like, why do I have such a hard time with money? Why does it feel so stressful? How do I kind of approach money from a neutral standpoint? Why do I like feel physically certain ways when we start talking about money? Like, what are some of those things? And I think as chronic illness warriors, it's something that we all want to kind of feel a little bit more empowered by versus not. And so I thought, why not have Akira on the show? So I'm so glad she's here. And yeah, let's welcome you. Welcome.

Thank you, Nikita Williams. Thanks for having me on your show. I always like when we get together, we always come up with some new gems. So I'm excited to hear what they will be today.

Girl, let me tell you about new gems for a second. Our live that we did got me, you know, it's so fascinating when you go into a space and you're thinking about the thing you, you know well, like you have, you're a money coach, you know money, you think about money a very specific way, and you've kind of got your world with it. And I think about running a business with chronic illness in my very specific way. But hearing you talk about something in our conversation or our live made me like have this whole new like pivot in my brain. Not a pivot, it was more of like a way of talking about chronic illness and it created a whole new concept. I've been loving it, but it literally is because of you. I was like, she got me sparked over here talking about like the phases of where you are with your money. And it had me thinking about about, you know, living with chronic illness, how we're in different phases, and it's led to this whole new, like, giving yourself grace and understanding about where you might be, what expectations you should be having, or ones that are not serving you. And I think, again, just kind of bringing it full circle back to talking about money and how it shows up for us and how we feel about things, man, are we all in different phases when it comes to money. How do you feel? About like money in general, money in general?

It's funny that you ask because I just feel so unbothered by just talking about money. Like, I wish that instead of asking someone— and it's funny because we were, when we were in the green room, Nikita Williams and I were talking about how everyone's like, how are you doing today? I feel like we should be at a point where like, how's your money today? How are you doing with your money today? Like, I want that to be the new norm, just to talk about your money in a normal conversation, not to be ashamed about it, to say, I'm doing well with saving, I am struggling with savings right now, I'm trying to earn more money, I'm trying to bring in more money in my business, I am bringing in more money finally in my— whatever the thing is, I wish we could just talk about it more because then— and I think this is probably what happened to you, Nikita, it's so much weight that's lifted, and it gives you that much more space to think. Yes, you probably just had more space to think because you weren't subconsciously stressed about money. And I know we'll get into it later, but a lot of that comes from money trauma and understanding what that is, how that impacts you, and how a lot of times we're just operating out of fear. Oh, so when people ask me like, what do I think about— I'm like, let's, let's talk, let's get into it.

Like, what y'all want to talk about today? Retirement, investing, Saving, like, what's the thing?

Debt. So I'm always ready to go.

Oh my goodness. That's that. That alone is just a drop, mic drop of like, yeah, why can't we just talk about money? Like, how's your day? Like, when you said that, I was like, I don't know if I'm, I don't know if I'm on that level with you yet, Akira, because I'd be like, uh, I don't know. I don't know if I want to talk about that right now.

Yeah. And even for me, I feel like this is a good moment for me to be very transparent about, even though I'm a money coach, everything is not perfect. Like, I am still trying to figure out the best way to build my savings as an entrepreneur. That is not something that I ever had an issue with when I was working a 9-to-5. So if the listeners don't know, I'm an engineer. I worked in the nuclear industry for 6 years. It was very— I put constant— I put money in my savings. I put money— like, it was just very steady. And now I'm like, how do I figure this out as a business owner? And I think now that this is my second year, it's becoming more clear to do it in a way that feels good and to shy away from feeling like it's only right if I did it in the same way I did it at my 9 to 5. So like, that's where I am with my money, and it's not perfect. And I think a lot of people feel like, because you're a money coach, before you— because you like talking about money, everything's perfect. Like, no, I'm, I'm figuring it out too, because there's new stuff that I face every day. But it doesn't mean that I can't adjust certain ways of thinking, certain ways, certain habits that I have in order to still achieve the goals that I want to achieve.

I mean, you hit it on the head. I think that's— I love that you brought that out. I think we all put— once we are a label, I think it's this weird paradox, even as coaches, as people who are like, this is what you do. Like, there's this part of us that, like, we know we're not— we're not perfect. We're not like, got this 100%, figure it out. We might be like maybe a couple stairs or staircases above you. Maybe we might even be in another building that you ain't got into yet, but we still have our own things we haven't figured out. And I think it's important, especially when it comes to money, to be vulnerable in that way and share that. I think we should be like that in all areas. Like, I be telling my clients all the time, like, hey, just because I'm on here on social media talking about, you know, Thinking about going to hospital and like doing all this other stuff and growing a business don't mean I don't have bad days where I'm like sitting in the corner crying, being like, why is this so hard? Like, it's real talk. And I think to your point, I think we all as experts or leaders should have room for this fact that it is still kind of messy in some parts of our, our journey, right? And that's okay.

Exactly. I agree 100%.

So let's talk about your journey. Let's talk about your journey for a minute about money. Like, So you were just saying you've— your background is like working full-time. Are you still working full-time?

No, I left in the end of 2022. That was my 2022 goal. How did you get there? Oh, that's, that's funny. So let me go back. Where I truly come from is always being used to living in paycheck-to-paycheck cycle. So much so that I didn't even know that it wasn't normal for other people to not do the same thing.

Okay.

Because my parents growing up were always talking about how there will just never be enough money, no matter how much money they were earning. My mom, she's a respiratory therapist. She worked night shifts, so she'd have night shift differential. She worked overtime. We were at home a lot of times, but like, she was always working. My dad was always working. And I'm like, The math is not math. How is this possible? And I remember not even once I started making my own money out of college, right? So first of all, I chose an engineering degree because typically they were known to have high incomes, right? And for me, I was like, if I could just earn a lot of money, then I will not have to live paycheck to paycheck. So I realized when I started making my own money, I didn't know what to do with that money. I did not know what— like, I truly didn't know why you should even save money, because the only time I saw any saving happening in my house is when we were moving from, like, townhome to townhome and we needed the first month's rent and, like, the deposit, right? Or we were buying a house. Like, it always was this big goal. It was never just like— you just have a habit of saving for things that might come up, for a rainy day, for a sinking fund. And so when I started making my own money, I was just spending it. I was just doing the same thing that I saw, the same thing that I was used to doing. And it wasn't until I realized that the little things that I should be saving from, like, oh, this is why it's okay to save money, and like, oh, this is why investing is important, because it's You don't have to have a million dollars just sitting in the bank. You can have X amount invested, and in 40 years it is a million. Yeah. Like, so just those basic financial literacy skills, I truly had no idea. So even though I was earning money as an engineer, so I talk about, I went from zero to $62K at 22. I was spending that $62K. I had little to no expenses. I moved back in with my parents. They let me stay there rent-free. Like, I didn't have a car payment. I'm like, I don't know where where that money was going. Clothes, shoes, hair, lashes, nails, like all the stuff that people just spend money on. I was like, yeah, I can do that now, and I don't have to ask permission or like ask my mom to help or ask my dad to help. And truly, I went from $0 to $62K at 22, and I was living paycheck to paycheck until I realized that, one, I was in a paycheck-to-paycheck cycle still even though I was making good money, or even though I was a high-income earner. And it had nothing to do with the amount, it had everything to do with how you were managing it. So That's really kind of my background and my money story.

Ah, Akira. Girl, I think like I hear you and I feel like y'all— so 100% full disclosure, I am in my like learning money life. I'm also in my like, who the heck am I outside of chronic illness, like what's my vibe? What's my style? You'll be seeing me talking about what to wear. I'm in the era of like, what is Nikita's life, right? And so when you're over here talking about paycheck to paycheck and you went like from zero to 62, but you was living at home, I was like, this sounds very familiar, but in a different way because I, you know, I'm married and my husband and I, we have experienced that often where we're like in a We're like, how do we still feel like we live paycheck to paycheck and yet we making more? But, but also we know expenses are higher, but also I know where the money's going, but I don't understand it. I think it's— I think it's interesting how what you're saying is that it's not necessarily that you need more money. You need to know how to handle the money you have.

Exactly. And that happens at any income level because someone that's earning $50K can be in the same paycheck-to-paycheck cycle as someone who is earning $250K. And how I describe this is if any one of these 4 things are true, then you're living paycheck-to-paycheck regardless of how much money you earn. So if any of your money left over after bills is not being used intentionally towards like planned spending or debt payoff or like whatever your goal is because you don't know where your money is going or you don't know your numbers. If you're going into more and more debt each month, if known things that's coming up, whether it's Christmas, whether it's like property taxes or like car maintenance or home maintenance, it's putting you back financially every time they come up because you're not strategically planning for them or you're just like not able to make consistent progress towards whether it's your savings goals, investing goals, debt payoff goals. And how this looks is that you'll put money in savings for, let's say, a down payment on a home, but you got to pull it back out 2 weeks later because something comes up, or you're paying off a credit card, but 2 months later it's maxed out again. So like you can't make that consistent progress to actually achieve that financial goal. So if any one of those 4 things are true, then you are in a paycheck-to-paycheck cycle because now you need that next paycheck or that next, you know, business owner distribution or owner's draw or whatever in order to now backfeed what you had to, you know, what you missed or now needed to make up for it. And so it keeps you just like going forward, then going back, going forward, then going back, which is ultimately a cycle. And I think that people struggle with that term and identifying with it because it's like, oh, I earned too much, too much money to be in a paycheck-to-paycheck cycle, or I'm not broke, or I'm earning $30K more than I was before. Like, that, that can't be true. And really, it's— there's no shame. Like, that's— it just is what it is. And I think that's what I mean by, like, just being unbothered by it. Like, I'm bothered by money. It's like, yeah, that's just what it is. So now I can strategically get out of it so I don't have to keep being in that same cycle.

I love that you explain it like that because that's how I feel about chronic illness. I feel like there's this shame around that you have, like, flare-ups. That you might have a bad season. Like, I'm in this season right now where I have a lot of unknown health stuff going on, and I don't feel any shame talking about it because I'm like, this is— it's called chronic illness for a reason. Like, it's, it's never going to be like gone. If it does and if there's a cure, I'm all for it. But like right now, that's what it is versus being like, I have done something wrong in the sense of being like, I caused this. And something you mentioned earlier, which is like financial literacy, I think in general we never got this education. So the shame is kind of like sometimes we feel like we should know, but no one ever really taught us this stuff. Like you went to school. I remember in high school, I think I maybe have had, had like one class and it was like one lesson on accounting or something like, like checkbooks or something like, what's your routing number? And what's your checking number? What does a checkbook look like? Like, this is high school stuff. And I just think about, like, even in college, we talked about money, but we didn't actually talk about managing money. We talked about how it looks like in the big world, but not when you drill down into, okay, what does this look like for me when I get my paycheck? Right. And so to your point, if we can just first give ourselves space to be like, hey, I don't know, or this is part of what happens when you don't know and start working with it. It's kind of like when I tell my clients with chronic illness, I'm like, you know that chronic illness is a thing. You're going to have flare-ups. You're going to have issues. So let's just plan for it. Let's just look for a way to work with it. And I think that's what you're kind of also saying with the money part, right? Like, it's like, you know, you might be having this cycle. It doesn't mean anything about you. It just means like, okay, we need to adjust some things. So if someone's listening to that and like, girl, but how do I get over the shame? Because I feel like people be looking at me like, what you mean you paycheck to paycheck and you making $100,000 or $60,000 or whatever? Like, how does someone from a body holistic standpoint get out of that money trauma that a lot of us are experiencing?

So it's interesting that you bring this up because I was just like doing— sometimes I just like write out what are some things that I want to talk about. And I was just writing about this. I need to talk about what it looks like to really address some of those things because of how much different you will approach whatever you're trying to do with your money. So for example, at the beginning of every year, everybody want to build a budget. Everybody want to build a budget. You want to stop spending $800 a month on food. So what do you do? You download the app, you buy a planner, you make a spreadsheet. Right? You cut your budget to $400 a month instead of $800 a month. By January 21st, it is nowhere to be found.

Why?

Because there was no intentionality about why am I not able to quote unquote stick to a budget if that's really the problem, right? Which typically is not the problem. Or why do I feel so much anxiety when I even sit down to do a budget? Why can I only do this at the beginning of the year? Even when I do sit down to do this, how do I actually feel? Or what am I afraid of? And I was just talking to someone the other day and she was like, I just want to pay my house off in 10 years. We bought in 2021 and I want to be done in 10 years. And 10 years kept coming up, coming up, coming up. And I said, why are you putting 10 years on it? And she, she started crying. I just asked her that simple question, and she said, every job I've been at, at the 10-year mark, I've even— I've gotten laid off. So she's operating out of fear now because she's scared that at 10 years she might not be bringing in an income anymore. So she wants to have the biggest line item taken care of, which is her mortgage. Hmm. But if I would have never asked her that question, she would have kept going 10 years, 10 years, 10 years, whatever it takes. And she was telling me it's causing her to accrue more debt because she's making an extra mortgage payment, which is eating up her cash. So sometimes you really have to sit with why you are doing what you're doing with money. And if you don't, you will keep doing that thing keep operating out of fear and not even getting to where you want to get to. Oh, so that's what the difference looks like. So now she can actually take that extra mortgage payment and use it to start building up some cash so she doesn't have to go deeper into debt. And she can still pay off her mortgage early. It might not be in 10 years, or maybe it will be because she can double herself. Like, there are so many ways to pay off your mortgage in 10 years. But if you try to jam-pack it before you get out of the paycheck-to-paycheck cycle, you're just going to keep taking the paycheck-to-paycheck cycle to the next income level. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so, like, that's what it looks like when someone truly sits with, how does my body feel when I talk about this thing? Why am I still working at this X amount of years later? Why do I still have shame about this same thing? Why am I repeating the same things my parents did?

That's such a good point, Akira. Akira, that was so good. I'm like, ooh, that, that's good and spicy. I feel like I, I feel that for the women and the people listening, listening to this episode specifically who have trauma connected to the reason why they're in debt, and I'm, I'm very upfront with people and I'm like, yeah, I have tons of medical debt. Like, it's not a, it's not a joke. Like, if you had spent the first 5 years of your marriage, literally when you were literally just out of high school, college, and you ain't got no job, job, you ain't got no job. And you go from like living a normal life to being in the hospital 3 or 4 times a month. Okay, you're gonna rack up some medical debt. There is no ifs, ands, or buts about it. It's gonna happen. And I think a lot of times, because the way that we view that, We view that, oh, we are irresponsible. And so when other things come up, like, you know, like you were saying, like, I need to pay off my house, or I need to pay off this car so I can have more money for this treatment or that treatment, or even in your business, like, I need to make this amount of money. I have a client, I have a client who wants to, like, hold on to money, like, so, like, the thought of an expense or an investment is we do a lot of work to get to the point of being like, OK, I'm ready to release that. And I do think a lot of this has to do with our thoughts about how, like you said, how are we feeling about money in our body? And then how does that show up in reality? Like, what does that thought, that feeling create in your reality? And to your point, she could have— so I mean, she could have she could pay off her mortgage by not going in debt in a completely different way than what she was doing, and probably way more efficiently if she just accepted that that's the reason why she was approaching it that way. So I, I am with you. That's that same thought process that we, we kind of learn in some mindset work around, like, the thought that you are having is creating the result that you likely don't even want, which is more debt, more stress, more paycheck-to-paycheck cycle. You're just rehearsing the same thing. And so when you think about that with clients and for yourself in your journey, when was that flipped? Like, when did that thought shift change for you to being like, oh yeah, I'm in a cycle and now I need to change it? And how does that feel in my body? Like, how did you shift into where you feel like you are normally baseline neutral with it?

Yeah, so Nikita, it truly took me 3 years to get out of that cycle. Hmm. The main reason, because I didn't want to acknowledge I was in that cycle, because here I am, an engineer, right? Because we were so like, because we're so special or whatever, or because we make so much money, or because you're so smart, or like, because I know math, we're like all these, all Right, because I'm supposed to be better with numbers because I'm an engineer. So a lot of it was just not wanting to acknowledge the fact that I was in a paycheck-to-paycheck cycle and trying to like fight against it and show that I wasn't by doing all the things, getting my hair done, buying the clothes, going out with friends, like showing up in a way that people not living paycheck-to-paycheck supposedly should show up.

Mm-hmm.

But then I'm like, but I shouldn't be excited to get up at 5 o'clock in the morning just to check my bank account because the direct deposit is there.

Like, why?

Why am I doing this? Yeah, I'm like, this is silly. Like, I really had to start— and you start seeing how what you're doing, just like, why?

Yeah.

And I had to just get honest about I was repeating the same exact things that I was questioning about my parents when I was growing up. And just like seeing that mirror reflection, I was like, okay, either I gotta figure this out or this is just gonna continue to happen, and I don't want it to be the case. I remember going to— when I was little we always lived in like a townhome. We didn't buy our first house until I was probably in high school. And I remember being in elementary school and I went to a friend's birthday party and her house was so— I was like, how? It had multiple levels. And I remember being like, how do people— I, I literally couldn't make sense of it because it's just something that was so out of my world. And I'm like, but it— and like, there was always this thing in my mind, like, but it's possible. Like, people are out here doing it. I just have to figure out how. And so I would think about that a lot too. Like, I've been in those homes that I see that's attainable. I've, I've seen it, so it has to be possible. My family clearly doesn't know the answer. I don't feel comfortable with asking people, right, how do you do this, because I feel embarrassed. So That's why it took me 3 years to get out of it because of the money, the shame that I had, all this stuff. And that's why on even on sales calls, I mean, I can, I can ask a question and tears will start flowing because I can see it. I can literally see it in the same way that tears would have started flowing for me if someone would have been like, you're just repeating what you said you don't want to repeat. I would have started bawling my eyes out. And so now I can just see it. But the switch was seeing that I was repeating the cycle that I said I didn't want to be in. And then also know, like, there was a little part of me that knew this doesn't have to be the case. Mm-hmm.

Something made you feel like it's that moment of being there. It's like, not everybody lives this way. Not everybody lives this way. And it can't just be— By chance, like, there has to be a way that you could actually— like, it could be possible for me, and I just don't know what it is yet. Because someone mirrored that reality for you, right? And that was the switch, right? Kind of like, wait a minute, so we don't all feel shame and have to deal with money like this? Like, that's everybody, right?

And we were in the same classrooms. Like, it's funny, when you go to college, you see just so like a broad representation of people. And for like, I went to a PWI, so it won't that many of us hanging out there, but it was some Black people there. And I'm like, y'all got money. I thought everybody— I— Nikita, I truly thought it was normal to be living. So then even that, like, even when I had some of those friends in like elementary school, high school, whatever, and then to see it like 10x in college, I said, oh, this is really possible. And so yeah, I held on to that. And the fact that I was in the same rooms as these people, I had like— it didn't make it feel like it was so far away. It was just a matter of how can I make it make sense for me?

I love that you said that. The rooms we're in, y'all, I'm telling you, like, I cannot— like, just being in the space sometimes with different people that have different perspectives, especially when it comes to like different lifestyles, even in businesses. This is why I encourage clients who have businesses, like, get around other businesses that aren't your business. Like, this is why I'm having a money coach on the podcast. It's like, it breaks your brain sometimes in the best way. And also it helps your brain find a solution to something that it didn't want. Like, your brain— I feel like your brain was always like, yes, I feel shame about this, but I also don't want this. Like, Show me another way. And it found like, well, they're living this way. How can I do this? And I think that is one of the most powerful tools we can give ourselves is give ourselves permission to step into rooms that we feel like we don't belong in and to stand in it. Right. I truly believe that as weird as it sounds. Yeah. I just recently was asked to speak and I'm speaking this weekend at a summit and Amy Porterfield was like the keynote. And I was like, you, you, y'all want me? And okay, yes. Not ready for it, girl. I'm not ready for it. But I'm like, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be in that room. And I think that's the piece that we have to give ourselves permission. We have to say, even if I have shame, I'm willing to stand in the light in order to see what's possible. And I think that's exactly what you're saying. Like, okay, now I see it's possible. So Now what? What did Akira do now? Because you were like, I'm not asking these people, but how did you get from, okay, it's possible to like, now you're a money coach and you can almost say like, hey, how y'all doing with your money? What's in your savings account? Like, how we get here?

Yeah. And okay, before we go there, I just want to say something real quick about money trauma because I think you painted it clear, but I'm going to like bring it full circle. So money trauma is literally any trauma that happens as a result of money. But it becomes an impairment to our quality of life, even when the circumstances aren't the same. So, for example, for me, living paycheck to paycheck and that becoming an impairment for me, even though I had basically zero expenses at 62K, I was still doing the same things. And in that state, every response is like an action, action of survival or of habit rather than a mindful action based on like a cognitive choice. And so when I was saying what I was doing was just repeating the cycle that I was in, but the cognitive part of my brain knew that I didn't have to do that. So you'll, you'll often see like two things be true at one time. You will act out of habit or based on the subconscious part of your mind, even though you know something else is possible. Because I don't want for people to think that something's wrong with them if they keep doing something, even though they know that there's better out there. That's just how you know that you are probably in a state where trauma has impacted you, even though you know you don't have to still operate in that way. So I just want to make that clear. I don't want anybody to think they're crazy, that they know better and they just aren't doing better. Those two things can be happening at the same time. Okay, so I think the question was, how did I get here?

Maybe. Yeah. So from, from like in these rooms to be like, y'all got money and I'm struggling paycheck to paycheck. How do y'all do this? How did you get from, from there to, to where you are now?

A lot of trial and error, a lot of DIYing that I probably did not need to do. A lot of feeling like I need to be super disciplined and making everybody around me aggravated, annoyed, i.e., my husband. He was like, this is insanity. And I didn't even see I was doing it because I was just like, I have to figure this out. Like, I have to get out of this state. So at first, what I did was the same thing that everyone does. We try to build a budget. It's like, okay, build a budget, download an app.

That's what they say. They say you got to build a budget and that will solve everything.

Yes. So I did that and I'm like, okay, this makes sense. Well, then I was like, but I'm still not able to take my car to get an oil change without needing to put on a credit card. It's like, okay, so I'm missing something. So now I'm DIYing again, like, okay, does that mean I need to save for it? Is this something that people typically charge? Like, I was literally like trying to figure out this stuff by myself without asking people because I was so embarrassed about it and I truly didn't know if that was the case. So then I remember I bought my first car and I saved up $2,000 and I couldn't believe it. I was so proud to take that $2,000 to the dealership and like buy a car and walk out with a key. It was like a game changer because one, I showed myself I could save even though I didn't know, but two, it helped me realize that I could do this for other stuff too. And so then I started saving for the things like the oil changes, for getting braids, like whatever I wanted to do with my hair, I started questioning, like, do I really need these? Like, I'm not even going anywhere. Do I really need to be buying all these clothes? What do I want to buy, right? And so then I had a, you know, a time of doing all that. Well, then I found the FIRE movement, which if you are not familiar with it, if you're a listener, it's called Financial Independence Retire Early.

Okay.

And I was like, oh, people are retiring early? I don't even know people in my family that have retired. What? So Nikita Williams, like, how— there's levels to this. There are so many. I'm like, oh shucks. What? Like, I felt like I had learned nothing. So that's when I started like obsessing. This is my obsession phase. I'm like, okay, I have to invest the most money I can. I have to save the most amount of money I can. I have to spend the least amount of money. It was— it truly turned into an obsession because I just— I truly could not believe that people were retiring early when I wasn't even seeing people that were retiring, period.

Yeah. Yeah.

So then this was probably like my last stage. Because at this point, I was not allowing myself to go to Starbucks, to go to Target, to buy clothes, to get my— like, nothing. Mm. I was cutting our food budget down to, like, nothing. I had to cook. Like, I was making everything miserable. And then my husband so kindly pointed out that it was insanity. I'm like, you know what? You right. You right. And so that was the moment where I'm like, okay, It doesn't have to look this way. Mm. So I'm like, okay, if I retire early, does it mean that I have to retire at 40, or could I make it 45? Like, I started to think, like, where could I make this my own? What do I like to spend my money on in a way that I don't feel restricted but also still allows me to save? Whether it's for a down payment, whether it's for an emergency fund, right? And so that's when I really realized that you could make it look healthy and still achieve your financial goals getting there. It doesn't have to look like we say, like 50/30/20 split, 50% expenses, 30% X, like, I'm like, okay, these people are trying to put me into a cookie cutter box. And I've I— this is making me miserable. So like, how can you make this adaptable for someone who has not been successful with that? And so I think that's where I am now, and that's how I can— that's how I'm able to help my clients drop so much of the shame, because in my own journey, I realized it doesn't have to look like this idea of what everybody made it look like. You don't have to be totally debt-free in order to buy a house. You don't have to pay off your student loans in order to build a 3-month emergency fund. And this is what it can look like for you to get there without trying to achieve these societal standards and expectations. That's totally bullcrap.

Mm-hmm. You know, we'll talk about this in a second, the whole concept of— like, concept— the whole thing about debt. But because debt in itself has so much trauma connected to it. And I think more so to certain— more so to certain groups of people does debt have a heavier shame cycle, whatever. But when you were just talking about like trying all of the things, and this is one of the things I like to just call out for people who are like, why should I invest in a money coach? Why should I invest in a coach? Why should I like— why should I be spending my money doing these things when I could be saving this money? Like, first of all, you know, you ain't gonna save it. Let's just be real.

Let's just be real.

You ain't done it yet. You ain't done it yet. So you might be in this cycle as well and still in the same phase one that Akira may have been in, right? So I think it's important to humanize the fact that the reason why we offer these services or offer these kind of containers is mostly because goodness gracious, if someone had given me the map that I now have, right? And like been able to say, like, there are 3 phases starting and growing your business, living with chronic illness, and you're in one of these phases, and this is how we need to, like, finesse it for you specifically, what will work for you. My goodness, would I have been, like, all over that. But I experienced that, so therefore I created it because that didn't exist. And I think to your point, like, being able to have someone to be like, go have the coffee. Like, like your husband was like that person for you to kind of be like, this is crazy, babe. Like, can we, can we eat now? Can we eat more carrots?

Are we going to look for more leaves on the tree? Like, what's happening?

What's happening? So I think that's a powerful thing just to like acknowledge that you don't have to do this money reversal of trauma and all these things by yourself. You don't have to try all the things, and not all the things are for you. Like, I think that's something important for us to call out too. Like to your point, like you don't have to be debt-free to buy a house. You don't have to be debt-free to buy a car. Like there's so many things you don't have to be that we are told or sold. I'm going to say sold that we have to be before we create or take these steps. But let's talk about debt for a second because debt, this world runs on debt, people. That's all I'm going to say. Okay. This world runs on debt. It runs on debt and it runs on people. There are people who use debt as leverage and there are people who don't know what debt is and therefore they continue to create a cycle of debt that does not serve where they're going. That's my, like, that's my, like, learnings, my new awarenesses around debt. How would you describe debt for people to kind of break down some of the You know, the blocks that we all have heard when it comes to debt.

So here's my honest opinion about debt. For the people who have not grown up in generational wealth, for the people who have not grown up with land inherited to them, or just like all this access to money in ways that we know that other people have it. And I'm not saying it's just limited to this group of people, I'm just saying specifically for this group of people, debt becomes our identity and it becomes shame. Mm-hmm. In a way that debt becomes an opportunity for the people that have built wealth because they use debt to build wealth. Mm-hmm. And the biggest shift that I think about when it comes to debt is always build up your cash and manage the debt. Always build up the cash and manage your debt, because when you do it in reverse, if you try to become debt-free, if you try to put all your extra money towards debt, you're tying up all your cash with debt, all you're doing is creating a cycle where you are now reliant on your credit card because you do not have the cash to take care of the things that you need to take care of. Cash is and will always be king. And if you don't believe me, and if you really want to get into it, go look at the top 5 companies on the S&P 500 and look at the amount of cash that they have. Your top performers, whether it's a company, whether it's people, where's they have cash, so much so that they will still use debt in order to make sure they are keeping that cash, because that is where you have opportunities, that's where you have options, that's where you have flexibility. And that is one of the biggest shifts my clients have to make in order to release the shame they have around their debt, because they have truly been in a cycle where they are depleting all their cash to pay off debt and they end up right back in debt and it just repeats over and over and over again. So that's my thoughts on that.

Yeah, no, that's my— that's mic drop. That was one of my biggest aha moments when I started running my own business around looking at money and understanding money. I used to be so triggered by the word debt. I used to be so triggered by looking at my debt. I used to be looking at it and just being like, oh my gosh, I'm never going to get out of this. And then anytime anything happened, of course I was trying to pay off my debt. So of course I would be in more debt. Like it just created that same cycle. And then the moment I started giving myself permission to be like, you know what, we can just pay the minimum and keep saving. Like, I'm okay with that. That shifted like me looking at debt as this thing that's out to get me to being like, it's there, but at least I have some cash. Like, I don't know about you, but like the energetics of you have debt, but you also have money in the savings account feels a lot different. A lot different.

Because you have options. No one wants to feel like they don't have options ever. You always want to feel like your back is not up against the wall. That's where all of the, like, anxiety happens. That's where all the stress comes about. And you do that when you tie up all of your cash in debt. Now it's really overwhelming to you because not only do you have all this debt, you don't have any cash to deal with other things that come up, because they will come up.

Oh yes, we know that.

And this is also— yeah, this is also not to say that you should just ignore debt or you should just go take out a ton of—

no.

What I'm saying is, if you have debt right now, what is a way that you can shift your priorities for X amount of time so that you can build up your cash while managing your debt in terms of paying the minimum, just so you give yourself some options. You can always go back to paying extra towards your debt after you have built up cash. Yeah, yeah.

Okay, so let's talk about savings. Now that we've talked about that, well, I'm like, we didn't go through a whole little experience here. We've gone from the money trauma to like story of like, you know, how Akira got to where she's at, the different things she tried, how it feels in our body, to debt. Now let's talk about the thing, savings, right? Like savings and investing. Investing is like a whole new world. That's a whole new episode in my brain. But savings, how does— and I think savings is very much like building up the muscle. And this is— and I do think it's a muscle that I like to say, like for my clients, living with chronic illness, it's a muscle of deciding that in a season of whatever, you're still going to do this thing. It might be like, it might be a little bit, but you're still going to do it. You look very different than when you're like in your glow girl chronic you self and you're like feeling your best life. You might be able to do 100% way more than you did in December when you were barely like getting your foot outside the door or out the bed. Like it's going to look different, but at least it's still a muscle you're building on. And I think savings to me has become part of that practice that I've been hearing a lot about. What is your approach to helping people step into savings in their business, in their life? Like how do they do this? And the first thing I want to say is that every time I think about savings, I think about the envelope method and I have feelings about the envelope method, but I'm curious, how, how do you you support people or tell them to start taking these first couple steps?

I help people see very clearly what they are required to do every month. So what are they absolutely obligated to do? Let's just make that clear, write that down. Okay, what are you now needing to spend on every month in a way that you don't feel restricted?. There's always some amount of money left over. I don't care. I've had clients making $45,000, $50,000 to $150,000 plus. That helps them see you actually do have money to save, because that's the, that's the first thing, that's the first hiccup you get. It's like, I don't have any money to save, when really it's a matter of you don't clearly see where your money needs to go in the first place. So you automatically don't save based on the fact that you think that you don't have it, even when you do. So that's first block right there, just getting over that. And then when you see that you actually do have money to save, you have— this is probably the most important thing— you have to get specific as to what that savings is for. And I don't care if it's something as simple as your dog's got to go to the vet. Or maybe it could be, you know, you have something coming up in 2 months and you want a new outfit and you want to say, I don't care how simple it is. I don't care how small of an amount it is. Like, just make sure you get specific. And it's something that either you really need coming up or something that you really want that you're going to like be consistent about and like you want to do it. And again, I don't care how small, big, like I don't care how simple it might be. And then you need to break down, okay, realistically, can I really put this amount of money left over that we just talked about in my savings every single month or every 2 weeks? Whether you're like part-time business owner or full-time business owner, right? Can I do that consistently? Consistently, because it's going to be that consistency of doing it every single month and not having to then kind of like back out of it that's going to keep you on track and keep you motivated. Because the moment you can't put that much or have to go in and take it out, you feel like you messed up, and then you kind of defeat yourself in your mind. And so like, that's kind of the 3 phases that I take people through.

Yeah, that's not hard. Akira, I ain't gonna lie.

It's funny because I'm like, wait, that was kind of simple.

That's funny. Well, what I see, I think what you're saying is simple. I think it's the mindset that makes it not simple, right? Like, I think about, I can literally hear, I have a, I have a couple clients in my head right now that I can already hear their objections, which is like, but wait, I have so many things I need to save for, like, Like if they were to write it down, there'd be like, they would feel extremely overwhelmed. And I think that's another piece of like savings that for a lot of people feel like, like there's so many things that they need. So especially if they're in the mindset of like they're in the paycheck to paycheck cycle, I think a lot of them feel like, yeah, it's because I have all of these things I actually need to do and I'm trying to catch up to it. So what would you say to that person who's like, look, I legitimately, let's just let's just give them, let's give them this, this thought. They legitimately have bills. And once they pay the bills, they have like less than $200 to do the other things, right? What would you say to a person who's like, I do, like, I get what you're saying and I don't want to live in the paycheck to paycheck cycle and I want to save. And yet I have so many things I need to do or take care of myself or want to take care of myself. I don't know how I can actually do that without going into more debt and still quote unquote trying to save.

It's funny you say that because I have clients that were that way and it always came down to those things. Some of those things should be in your spending. Mm-hmm. They shouldn't be in your savings. So, okay. Okay. Hopefully people can picture this. You have a core budget, like just Picture that like the sun or whatever. That's what you're obligated to pay. That includes a minimum credit card payment, people. So if you're these— if you're the person that Nikita's talking about and you're like, I only have $200 left over, I guarantee you $100 you're putting extra towards credit cards. So just clear that up. You got an extra $100 right now. Truly, your core budget is like the, the sun, the center circle, what you are obligated to pay. Then outside of that, what are those? The first orbit, you've got these different categories. We can call them planets.

Can I just say this is a very engineer's brain, like, illustration?

So like the very first orbit, let's say you've got 6 planets are the categories, right? So you've got food, you've got shopping, you've got memberships, you've got subscriptions, etc. That's your spending. Hmm. Inside shopping should be something for you. Hmm. For me, it looks like coffee. I will buy a $25 bag of coffee without blinking, and people are like, what?

That's crazy.

I'm like, okay, well, I'm not gonna have basic coffee, so that's what it is. For me, it's seeing Beyoncé front row. Like, it's a non-negotiable. No one can convince me I shouldn't spend my money. Like, I want you— y'all to go hard with these things. Another person, she was, um, really— I forget what the name of this, like, cooking—

cooking brand.

No, it was like this brand of pots and pans. I don't know what it was. Like, that was her thing. Like, she was that should be in like things like the things that you're genuinely like lights you up. That should be in that second, that first orbit right around the sun. Anything outside of that would be saving or paying off extra debt. Where people go wrong is they take extra debt payments and put it in their core, and now they feel like they don't have any money left over outside of $200. Or they find that they're spending more money that month because they have a hair appointment, but hair appointment was never in spending, it was in saving. It was in the— it was in like that second orbit, right? So that's kind of like how I like— people have all these things mixed up. So then it goes back to thinking you're not good with money because you thought some of the stuff that you should be saving from was a part of your core budget when it never should have been in the first place, because you're not obligated to do that at all. And so it's like, you need to give yourself—

Oh, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, Kira, wait a minute. Oh, oh, that right there, that, that just hit different. The whole thing about you are not obligated to do. I think I think that's the piece, right? And I think this links back to what you're saying. The obligation that you think you have to pay is coming from the shame. It's coming from your fear. It's coming from where you think you should be doing because other people said you should be doing it. The obligation that you're thinking you have to do something is not really a real obligation.

Right? And that's where people run into, oh, I can't stick to a budget. Because you had car maintenance coming up and that's not a part of your core budget. It was never supposed to be there to begin with. It doesn't mean that you're not good with sticking to a budget. It was never there. Mm. It's not those core things you're obligated to do. Anything outside of that would now be saving, would now be paying off extra debt. And when you think about it that way, you always have money to spend on, or you always account for spending on yourself. And I don't care how much you go, I don't like money. I'm not driven by money. I don't care about things. I'm not material. There's something that you like that you can buy. It could be a plane. It could— there is something that you like. The longer you tell yourself you don't want it, the longer you're going to be miserable because you're going to feel like every time you make money, you see no— you get no benefit from it.

Mm-hmm.

You feel like it's always going to your family. You feel like it's always going here, always going there, because you never use it for you. That should always be a part of that, like, first orbit. Because then when you save for things, it's not, I'm saving for this and it's taking away from this.

Hmm.

It's not, oh, I'm going to spend money on this thing, but now it's going to take away from savings because you're already doing it. And so it's cleaning that up. Because for the people who I've coached, it's like, I only got $200. I'm like, you're spending an extra $500 on an extra debt payment that you could be saving, or that you could be using $100 to take yourself out to a nice dinner every month, away from your kids. So that's what I would say to those people.

I'm just going to say that, that right there. Oh, that, that was, yeah, so good. I know we're coming up to the end of this and I have one more question because I just, I want to kind of include it because I do think it's going to come up or someone's going to ask me about it, which is when though with money and paycheck to paycheck, when is there legitimately, you need to bring in some more money? Yeah.

Yeah, so let's say we go through those same things again. I have a client now, she needs to bring in more money. She had some extra money that we were like, okay, this will last you 6 months or so, and now it's time to look for a job because you need to bring in extra money. So what I would say is, if you don't have that cushion like she did to make up for it for X amount of months, and let's say you're your back is up against the wall, you need to use debt. Really sit with and face the fact that you need to use that right now. And not only is it using debt, it's actually helping you take care of yourself. It's like you're just taking care of yourself by any means necessary, and the only necessary means you have right now might be debt. But how can you use that now that we've gone through what you actually need? Because here's the thing, okay, let's do this tactically. Let's say someone's got $3,000, and that includes their core budget, that includes their spending, right? And they suspected that they needed to bring in more money, but they only thought they needed to bring in an extra $500 a month. And now they went to get one extra client or get another part-time or whatever the case may be just for that $500. But when we go through the process, what we find is that you actually need an extra $750. So if you don't, like, really face it and really figure out, like, what do I actually need, you may go earn more money and it's still short of what you need and you feel like like nothing's going to solve your problem. Yeah, when really you miss something in terms of what you actually need. So that could actually— that's very beneficial to say, okay, this is the place. Again, just being honest and transparent, this is the place that I'm in. I need to take care of myself. That may look like borrowing money from a family member, that may look like utilizing some of the debt that I have, whatever it is, whatever it is that you need to take care of yourself. Like, let's be honest, you might really need to use it.

Yeah.

And say, okay, I'm doing this now, I'm going to bring in more money, but here's what I actually need that's actually going to support me, and not just some arbitrary number. That's the difference. Because if you're truly in a situation where you're— where you need to earn more, go earn more. People are like, well, what do I do? What? I'm like, you are more— it's a matter of how much more do you need to earn so that you're not now taking the paycheck-to-paycheck cycle to the next income level. Mm-hmm.

And it's intention. I mean, everything I hear right now is like really not just intention, but like being extremely mindful and legitimately getting into the nitty-gritty. And I think to do that though, we have to remove the shame. Like, that's the thing. Like, all of this is coming back to like, we have so much shame around money and what we think we should be doing. I have a client who often is like so traumatized by just looking at their money that it's like, you never want to do it again next month. You never want to do it again because it's, it's, it's trauma. And so I think to your point is like, first of all, let's give ourselves permission that the, the decisions we've made to either survive or Maybe it wasn't just to survive. Maybe we were just living and we just didn't know any better. It's okay. Like, it's okay. Like you, it's okay. That's all I could say about it. It's like, it's okay. We can just look at this like it's a sheet of paper and move on. Like move on, make the, make the plan and do what we can and move on. Um, instead of allowing the shame to keep us in this place.

And when you don't, you keep doing stuff that doesn't work. Like, that's how you know that you're not really looking at it holistically. So people are like, well, I can just find a budget on YouTube or Google. Well, a budget is not going to help you unpack the shame that you have that's preventing you from actually implementing the budget so you can do X, Y, and Z.

And can see that you can do X, Y, and Z. It blinds you. Exactly. The shame around debt blinds you from any possibilities of seeing what's possible. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, exactly.

So, so good. So many mic drop moments. We are way over our time. I'm sorry.

You're fine.

But let us for sure, like, tell everyone how they can connect with you and find you, and if there's anything you want to share with them that's coming up that's exciting for you, and then we'll wrap up.

Yes, so you can find me at my podcast, which is Women Talk Money, and you can find it on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also find me at my website, which is www.akiranicholson.com. I'm sure you will have this in the show notes for spelling. I'm always active on Instagram. I am going live all the time. You can ask me questions there. You can DM me to like get me live, my reactions and things. And I do have a summit coming up that I'm going to be speaking on. It's called Get Shit Done, and it is April 14th at 12 PM. So I'll be speaking on that, and all that stuff will be on my website that you can find there. So really go to my podcast, Women Talk Money, and from there it'll link you to everywhere else— my email list, my Instagram, all those things.

That's awesome. Can't wait. We'll have everything in the show notes. And I have one more fun question for you, Akira. What is your favorite song that you are on replay right now? Like, just keep playing it over and over again.

Oh my gosh, Nikita Williams. There's this song by— hold up. And so I'm like, okay, the people probably don't know this, but I'm a dancer and I've danced forever. There is— I didn't know that. Yeah, I do ballet and I do— I've done modern. Modern is like my thing. Love ballet. Like, I love ballet. It's so good.

Oh wow. I used to do ballet too.

Yeah, when this song comes on, I can literally see myself in the studio. Like, that's how much like my body just replays. But anyways, it's called You Can't You Can't Save Me by Sir.

Okay, y'all got it.

Playlist, so good.

Yes, you can't— that was a good question. Yeah, we'll pop it somewhere in the middle of the episode at some point, but I've, I've been trying to add some fun, interesting facts about folks in there, and my favorite thing is music. I love music. So yes, thank you so much for being on the show, Nikita.

It was great.

That's a wrap for this episode of Business with Chronic Illness. If you would like to start and grow an online coaching business with me, head to the show notes to click a link to book a sales call and learn how to make money with chronic illness. You can also check out our website at www.craftedtothrive.com for this episode's show notes and join our email list to get exclusive content where I coach you on how to chronically grow a profitable business while living with chronic illness. Until next time, remember, yes, you can. Are crafted to thrive.