Could Your Business Be Suffering from Perfectionism? With Nicole Baker

Consistency is really the name of the game in business, and it can be scary to be consistent sometimes because there are bad entrepreneur days. I still have them more often than I'd like, which is never. I'd like to have them never, but we still have them because new level, new devil. You're always going to have something. Yeah, exactly.

That is the truth. That is the truth.

Welcome to Crafted to Thrive, the globally ranked podcast for entrepreneurs living with chronic illness. I'm your host, Nikita Williams, And after being diagnosed with multiple chronic illnesses myself, I figured out the surprisingly simple missing links to growing a profitable business without compromising my health. Since then, I've helped dozens of women just like you learn how to do the same. If you're ready to own your story and create a thriving business that aligns with your health and wellbeing, you're in the right place. Together we're shifting the narrative of what's possible for entrepreneurs with chronic illness. This is Crafted to Thrive.

I am so excited to have Nicole on the show. We are going to talk about a topic that I think every single woman has some kind of conflicting emotion about, which is perfectionism. Oh yeah. And I can't wait to hear more about your story. And then also we're gonna kind of go really deep into this topic in a little bit, just like the real talk. Y'all know how I do. Nicole, please tell everyone who you are, where you're from, and what you do.

Oh, I'm, I'm excited. My palms just got really sweaty after you mentioned that. I was like, oh, here we go. Okay, let's do this. My name is Nicole Baker. I am a coach for perfectionists. I work with the more high achiever type of perfectionism where we are always on the hamster wheel of more. I want, like, when I achieve that level, then I'll be happy. When I make X amount of money, then I'll be happy. When I have X amount of free time, then I'll finally have my life together. So on and so forth. And yet you reach that level and it's never enough. You never celebrate yourself beyond the 6 minutes that you're like, oh, go me, but I'm not at that level yet, so let's go to that one. You know, like I tend to work with a lot of those types of people. And it's funny cuz you know, we attract who we are and I am very much that type of recovering perfectionist. You mentioned where I'm from. I'm hailing from the good old Denver, Colorado. I love it here. It is beautiful. Finally I have sunlight. Finally I'm not in like 40 layers. Finally. I'm so excited. And yeah, did I hit all, I think I hit all your questions.

Yeah. You know, it's so funny. I know a couple, I feel like a lot of perfectionists are in Colorado. I'm just kidding. I know a lot of amazing women I've met online who who are like totally Type A, high achieving.

Yeah.

And they all live in Colorado, like that I've met on Instagram.

Here's my headcanon behind why that is. Like, because, so I grew up in Boulder, Colorado, which is like the triathletes of the world.

Mm-hmm.

All of the professional skiers and snowboarders, the Olympic runners, they all hail from Boulder, Colorado. They are all there. Like I was a very pudgy kid for Boulder, Colorado, and I got teased like crazy for being like a pudgy kid. And now I have a joke with my friend where it's like, if you can't run a sub-4 mile in Boulder, then you're considered fat, which is terrible. And it's horribly true. It really is. And I hate it. And honestly, I think that's where a lot of my perfectionism came from, at least with body dysmorphia.

Hardcore.

But I digress. The reason I think a lot of high achievers are in Colorado is because it's now a huge tech hub. So that whole Silicon Valley, it's now become like a second Silicon Valley. And also the athletes of the world just come here, but then everyone expects the same standard of athleticism from like a normal 9-to-5 worker. And it is so skewed. It's so fascinating. I love it and I hate it at the same time.

Well, that makes a lot of sense, Nicole. I don't think I realized that, but now that you're saying that, it kind of makes sense. It also makes me think random. So off the shoot, Hallmark, when they have all those videos of people who are like fancy athletic, super high achievers, and they always are some, for some reason from Colorado. I think it's interesting. So that makes a lot of sense.

Who would've thought? So weird. Anytime you see a person in like a movie who's like the super athletic, like even a cheer, I like, there was a cheerleading show for a while and they were all from Boulder and I was like, what is happening? Like, yeah, but those high achiever athletic.

People, always Colorado, always.

It's the altitude. That's why it's, 'cause the high is too high up there. It's too high. But when it, what, what I've learned, 'cause you know, through osmosis I've learned this, you, when you train at a really high altitude and then you go to, let's say like Florida, if I'm running 5 miles here at that high altitude, I can run for like 10 miles flat in Florida. 'Cause altitude shift and my breath is different. So, and as someone who is a runner, I can confirm that it is really nice going to somewhere where it's not painful to breathe outside, you know?

So, wow, that is, wow, that's a whole podcast episode.

It's weird.

It's weird.

It's weird.

Interesting. Well, let's talk about how do you define perfectionism? I have a definition, but I'd love to hear what yours is.

I define perfectionism as a person who has a certain standard for themselves, and if they do not hit that standard, the world falls apart. Everyone is dead. The urgency of a house fire erupts within you. And like there's this expectation management almost where there's a, I should say there's a lack of expectation management where I expect myself to be at the same. And before we even hit record, we were talking about this, like Before I even started my business, I was working 3 side jobs in addition to growing my business. I was working 80, 100-hour weeks, point blank. That was my expectation for myself at the time. Would I do that again?

No, never again.

But like, that was what I needed to do at the time, quote unquote needed, by the way. But now I still have to remind myself that I am a full-time entrepreneur. I don't need to work the same amount, the same amount of not only force, but also the same amount of hours, the same amount of energy. I don't need to put all of that into my work week now. But there's that little voice that says, you could though. You did it once, you could do it again. And that's the perfectionism within us. It's like that certain expectation, it's demanded within you. And it's so sneaky cuz it can be in any area. It can be in work. I see it most often in work, I should say. It can be in exercise, it can be in financial situations, it can be in partner management, it can be in So many different— in, in the cleanliness of your house, a lot of people hear the word perfectionist and they're like, oh, that's super Type A cleaner. You know, like they're, they're like very like immaculate, all those kinds of people. That's not necessarily perfectionist. Like, and so that's really where I look at when it comes to perfectionism is that expectation and how if you do not hit it, it is the worst thing in the world.

You know, it's so fascinating that you describe it as like an expectation. And I describe it as a fear. Like, I describe it as it's really like a— it's like a mirage of a fear. Yeah. And in so many different ways, but I think it's still one and the same, like, the expectation of here and then this fear behind that expectation, right, of like being seen or not being seen or whatever that is. One of my favorite questions to ask, and I like to share questions on my show, is like, when did I feel like I needed to be perfect? When was the first time I felt like I needed to be perfect? And I don't know about you, but for me, when I think about that question, I think it, it started with like school. For me, it started in school. It started with like being around other people who didn't look like me and having to kind of like appear a certain way and like that became my standard of quote unquote excellence. Yeah, that couldn't be like messed with because of other people's standards, right? So when did this appear for you?

Oh, I love this question. I almost have two answers, but I'm going to go towards one because I think that this is really like the heart-centered one. So I grew up in a family that my two parents worked for people in the personal development world. So I grew up doing the seminars, going to the ropes courses, listening to the audio tapes. And as a result, we were, we would go to Hawaii every year for one of the big, big seminars that Tony Robbins did. And my dad was in charge of the ropes courses at his seminars. So he would be, you know, brought in, he'd get the 50-foot poles, they'd put 'em up. And I know I was 2 when I started, but I wanna say I was around 4 or 6 when this question really hits in. Because whenever my sister and I, who have an older sister, we'd go up, we'd go to the poles, we'd start climbing them and all this stuff. And these adults on the ground would be like terrified to climb these poles. My sister and I are just like, do, do, do, do, do. We've been doing it our whole life. And my dad would point to us and say like, that is my 4-year-old daughter.

Mm.

You should basically be like her, be fearless like her. And something clicked in my head that day that was, I get praise, I get attention, I am considered excellent and outstanding, and I get my father's love.

Mm.

When I am better than everyone else.

Mm.

You didn't lie. This is kind of like therapy. I love my dad. He's amazing. And one of my favorite questions that I get asked in, in seminars a lot is, which parent did you crave love from more?

Mm-hmm.

And what did you need to do in order to be loved by them?

Mm-hmm.

And it's not which parent did you love more? Mm-hmm. It's which parent did you crave love from more? So for me, it was from my dad and him and I have actually had this conversation. Mm-hmm. Um, which was intense, let me tell you. But it was my dad and in order for me to be loved by him, I had to be the best in the room. I'd be outstanding. So that's where my perfectionism really came from.

Wow.

Yeah.

So if you're listening to this, you're like, ooh, I got goosebumps. Like, both of you, like, whoa, we went from 0 to like 20 in 5 minutes. I'm sorry, but this is real talk.

Like, this is the podcast.

Yeah, this is the real piece of like perfectionism. We hear it so much in social media about like It's like this checklist of how to get out of perfectionism sometimes versus like, well, let's really unpack where some of this stuff is coming from. Because it didn't just happen because you decided today I want to be excellent, like, and no one can get in the way of that. It started way before being an entrepreneur, before living with whatever challenges and life hurdles you have, especially for my chronic illness warriors. There's some pieces of perfectionism that crept up in the face of not wanting to be seen as less capable. So they went over and above to be like this standard of excellence that nobody asked them to be except for themselves. So with the context of perfectionism, before you become an entrepreneur How did it actually serve you well, like in other professions?

Oh God, I love this question. So before I was even an entrepreneur, I was actually a musical theater performer, and I did that for about 10 years and loved every second of it. It was amazing. Maybe not every second, loved 80% of it. 80% was great. Okay. But because of my perfectionism, and I, I like to categorize perfectionism in 3 different areas, and that's high achieving, procrastination, and people pleasing. And you can be one of all three. You can have more of a home-based type. For me, that home-based type was, shock of shocks, an overachiever. And as an overachiever in the theater world, I would get the lead in the shows. I would try to have the most flashy songs, and as a result, I would need my voice to expand more to be at that level. And so it bit me in the butt sometimes, for sure. Because that, like, striving for, like, being the best— and because I went to one of the top musical theater colleges in America. Again, I told you I'm an overachiever. Here we are. But, um, as a result of being there, I wanted to be the best, but so did everyone else. And I constantly was falling short, which meant my mindset was constantly saying, well, clearly you're not enough, you shouldn't be here. And slowly but surely, it caused me to stop practicing as much. It caused me to kind of, like, get a little bit, like, curse victim mode. I'll call it victim mode for lack of a better word. And to the point where my professor finally had to sit me down and say, hey, your levels aren't good. You need to either perform a miracle or leave because you're not going to graduate this program. And I was like, well, let's go. Yeah, that sucks.

Like, let's figure this out.

And that mindset, that perfectionist mindset of like, okay, like, what do I need to do? How can I do it? How can I, you know, not only do it at a like baseline level, but how can I go above and beyond with it? I wouldn't have graduated if I didn't have that mindset already programmed within me. I did graduate, by the way. Thank you. My dad coached me through that last little bit. Love him. So yeah, that, that is really how it's both served me and it served me through rock bottoms and it served me into a rock bottom. So yeah.

Yeah.

I think sometimes we— I think there's this piece like with perfectionism I have found for myself that it gets a bad rap, but there are like pieces of it that is helpful. Like, I 100%, like, living with multiple chronic illnesses, if I didn't have a level of like wanting things to be better than the expectation, I would have crumbled under all of the pressure of living with chronic illness. Like, so I definitely think there is this like seesaw effect, if you will, with Knowing that you are human.

Yeah.

And that there is like, you know, humanness of being a— like, I always think of the word human being, like there is an aspect of being human that we have to embrace and actually to grow to where we want to go to. And then there's this level that sometimes we avoid thinking about, which is like, how can this thing that works really well for me also get in the way of me getting to where I want to go. So what has helped you, like, over switching into, like, entrepreneurship with perfectionism? I truly feel like it's probably one of the hardest things to overcome in an entrepreneur, like, life when you are a perfectionist, when you are a people pleaser, when you are— it is the hardest thing, like, and it's interesting that you said earlier, like, you attract clients that are very much like you, like perfectionists. And I think I've just worked really hard. I still have those qualities, but I'm more like free-flowy boho Nikita, and I attract the clients that are like wanting to be this. They are like craving that, but they are still like that perfectionist in them. So what kind of things did you have to acknowledge going into entrepreneurship that, well, this is gonna have to not be this way?

How much time do we have on this podcast? Because I have a lot of answers to this question. I'll round it up to my top 3.

Yeah.

Number 1 is I had to stop black and white thinking. Because like you were saying just a second ago, there's this idea that we either have to be excellent or like, you know, like I should be resting, or, you know, like I have to be the best in the room, or I'm the worst in the room that day. Like, you know, it's not like in that— it's more like If I'm not the best in the room, then I'm the worst in the room is more what I mean. But like, so I really had to work towards dropping the all or nothing thinking and I still catch myself. Luckily it's much, much, much, much less. But you know, I'm 4 years into this now. Like when I was first starting, I was like, I need to launch a program. It's gonna be the best program. It's gonna be amazing. I have to have all these bells and whistles that I didn't need. And you know, I, it was just such a waste of time, which brings me to number 2 is Number 2 is really split into 2 different things. It's like I had to learn what I could actually take on and still have energy left over at the end of the day.

Yeah.

Because I see a lot of high-achieving perfectionists try to give it their all to the maximum and then some. Like, they even— they find their maximum output and then push it beyond its limits. And that to them is like, whoo, I did a good day. But then like you get to the end of it and you have nothing left, and then you sleep and you recharge 60% and and then you only have 60% the rest of the day. So for me it was, how can I end my days and still have energy left over? And for me that is, I like to end my work days at 3 at the latest. Like I am at my best when I am really taking care of my free time and honoring that and resting and being careful. So what was the first, the first one was all or nothing thinking, dropping that. Second one was really knowing what I can do, during the day. And the third is, ah, there's so many options. Number 3 was really understanding how to be productive and not in a way that was like, let me do all the things for all the people because I'm a big people pleaser, because I also have a lot of that within me, but in a way of like, how can I actually go after my goals and not want to cry in a hole halfway through it? Like, how can I figure out how to have energy and motivation and sustain going after my goals. And for me, a lot of that was learning how to be productive with reading books, taking classes, like figuring out how can I really honor my time and not feel like I am working to my max. Again, going back to that maximum output. So for me, if anyone here knows like the 80/20 principle, I live by that every single day. I make sure my schedule is only 20% things, which means that I have 80% more time basically, which is awesome. And as someone who's right now planning a wedding that's happening in June, I need that 80% more time.

Oh girl.

Oh yes, you do.

I do.

I do. So, you know, having that and really honoring that, I'm gonna throw in a bonus number 4, cuz I think this one's important. Recognizing that we're gonna have different stages of entrepreneurship. Mm-hmm. And to, again, going back to that expectation thing, I'm gonna expect different levels from myself during different times. So for instance, during the summer, I am expecting to just coast and enjoy and have fun. Because I want to be out there enjoying my life. Like I said, I live in Colorado. It is freaking beautiful. I want to go into the mountains. I want to lay by the pool. I want to go and like fill Nicole up to the brim. In the winter, I know that I need a little bit extra TLC in the morning because there's not a lot of sunlight. Like, I know that I need to change my routine. And so really it boils down to being willing to shift and shape and change your, your schedule, your expectations that you make a decision and it's allowed to change and not say, this is my decision now and forever. Because— and that goes back to the all-or-nothing thinking. So really these all boil into another, but those are my top 4. Again, I could probably go on for about 45 more minutes on that question alone.

I, I love it because I think so many things that you just shared, especially, especially number 1, which is like the all-or-nothing thinking. It's like such a—

it's such—

I can't even think of the word. It is like the Achilles. It's like the kryptonite to every entrepreneur, right? Like if you have this thought of like, it's all or nothing, you're not gonna make it. Like, it's just what I feel like. You're not gonna make it.

No, I agree.

It's just so— it is different from a 9 to 5. When you go to a 9 to 5, you are told what you need to do. You go in, you clock in, and you don't have to think about anything else except for the one job that you are supposed to be doing. And as an entrepreneur, you are more than doing one job. Like you're 5.

Yeah. Plus, right?

Yeah. Yeah. And even when you, even when you get to a point where you are in the CEO kind of mindset, even then you are still being, have to be in a space of being able to flow into this hat and that hat and this hat without feeling like you're going to drown to death. And I think that's, go ahead. Go.

Oh, I was gonna say, if you don't mind me sharing something with your audience, this hack helped me with that exact thing right now. So I used to think like, okay, I need to do, you know, all these things. If let's go to like launching a product or a program or something. So if I'm here at level 0 and my program launch is here at level 100, I used to think that I needed to go from level 0, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, to plop down at level 100. I'm forgetting about steps through 1 through 99. I'm blowing through them. I'm trying to rush through them. They don't even exist because I just wanna get to the finished product as fast as possible. That caused so much stress, so much urgency. And remember, I'm still a perfectionist. So in Canva, it wouldn't just be make a graphic, it would be make a graphic, but make sure that line looks really good. And like take 45 more hours than I needed to on it. It was crazy. So that was a huge time suck for me, not alone a huge stress and a huge mental beatdown. So instead what I started doing is looking at, okay, that's not gonna work anymore. I wanna head to level 100. That is still my goal. But what's my first step to get there? What's step 1? I guarantee you it is not spending 45 hours on a Canva graphic.

No.

It is probably what does the program look like? Like map it out steps 1 through 5, like, and super high view. Like I've had people do this and they're like, okay, well my first step is then to make my website. And I'm like, wrong.

No.

Like your first step is not make your website. That is level 100. That is level 100.

Yeah.

Step 1 is outline your About Me page or write the first draft. Note those words I chose very carefully. First draft of your sales page. Like, I mean, like, or even the first half of it, like it doesn't matter. Like chunk things down and don't be afraid to. So often I see perfectionists be like, well, I shouldn't have to chunk things down 'cause I can handle the big stuff. I can do it, I can do it. And like they get these like wild crazy eyes around it. And it's like, I appreciate that, but you've been doing that and yet you're still talking to me. So something's gotta change.

Say that again, Nicole. Like, y'all, yes.

Here's the deal. We're so afraid of change. We're so nervous. And I'm, I'm not calling anyone out or shaming anyone. We're hardwired to believe this.

Yeah.

Like we're hardwired to not want change. And you cannot drop perfectionism, change your life, build a really high, successful, beautiful business if you cannot embrace the fact that you are going to need to change some of your habits, some of your ways about going things, your strategies, all these different thoughts. You have to be willing to change. And that can be a really hard pill to swallow sometimes.

Yeah, and it is. And I'm sure Nicole, as a coach, and me and you, like, Like, we say things to our clients. Like, I feel like I say things to my clients and being like, I know you are already going to have a brick wall on me talking about this topic about like, yes, that may have worked to get you to this point, but for you to get to the next point, you cannot hold so like firmly in this place that's keeping you— what's the word? It's keeping you from actually being able able to elevate to the 100. Like, you are literally putting yourself in a box by, by that. Yeah.

It's so often because they want to keep control. And I say they, totally raising my hand with that. Yeah. Like, we desperately crave being in control. And there's a reason. I mean, like, getting a little neuroscience-y here for a second, but like, we go way, way, way back when to like the days when we were living in caves, we were living in tribes. The campsite where everyone was happy and home. They were home from hunting berries and hunting elk or whatever. We were back at home. We were all gathered around the campfire. That was our comfort zone. That was where we were safe and we were going to live through the night. But if we were to do, do, do, do, do, I'm going to go and abandon and go drop myself in the middle of the forest alone. We would literally not do that because why would we? It's out of the comfort zone and we're going to die. Our saber-toothed tiger is going to come and just like, yum, yum, yum, yum, yummy. There's a reason why we have this hard wiring to stay in comfort zone and to never leave our comfort zone. And that hard wiring is because our brain still views comfort zone as survival. We have evolved so much as a society. Technology's amazing. We love the iPhone, whatever, but our brains are still the same hardwiring. So if we're looking at our comfort zone and our comfort zone here is control, it's being in control. By the way, you know exactly how to be in control if you're self-sabotaging yourself left and right. You know exactly that pattern. You know exactly that, you know, roundabout of how things are gonna go. If you put a huge amount on your to-do list and then you don't do any of it, and then you lay in bed at night beating yourself up for not doing any of it, you know exactly how that's gonna roll. You're in control there. But if you were to go outta your comfort zone and instead say, okay, I'm only gonna do these 3 things on my to-do list and I'm gonna tear it off and burn the rest, our comfort zone goes, mm, no, you're not. Nice try, but you're gonna die. And again, it gets really dramatic like that. But I like to highlight this because so many people, I see this so much and it makes me almost wanna cry thinking about it. Like I see this so often in people who come to me and they get so frustrated with themselves. They're like, I just can't figure out why I can't change. I can't figure out why I can't, you know, grow to that level I wanna be, get my business to where I want it to go. And it's like, okay, you're hardwired this way. And they're like, oh, so it's not me. And it's this element of this massive shame being taken off their shoulders. So, and especially as perfectionists, they're really comfortable and best buddies with the shame monster that likes to live on our shoulders, right? So I like to highlight the fact that this is how your brain is working. It is how your brain is designed, and it has been for millions and millions of years, and it will be for millions and millions more. So like, please, Recognize that it is not your fault. This is how your brain is, and you are smarter than the survival brain every time, but you have to know how to change it.

Yeah. And I think it's interesting that you say that, Nicole, because I personally feel that we have been— we have the ability, we have been designed with the ability to change even in the uncomfortable space, right? And I think kind of going back to what we were talking about this time, and like earlier in the conversation of like, why it's so hard. Again, you cannot change, you cannot alter something that you are too busy beating yourself up about. Right? Like, and again, going back to like that same question of like, where in our world, yes, we can think about like, way back then, those things are part of our, our wiring, but also recognize that we live in a world that is— and our brain is living in this world where it is constantly reinforcing that if you change in a certain way, you are going to experience whatever negative thing that comes with change, right? And so like, it's like, give yourself some like grace around the fact that change doesn't happen overnight. It doesn't feel good all of the time. Like, I think that's part of like embracing the human being part of being like, yo, yeah, this is going to feel uncomfortable. I feel like entrepreneurs in general are constantly trying to lessen the uncomfortableness of being an entrepreneur, and it's like, there's no such thing, y'all. You just get better at it. Like, you just get better at being uncomfortable and still doing the action that you need to do that's uncomfortable.

It's almost like, and I've seen this time and time again where, and I see this within myself where it's like I now get excited when I'm getting out of my comfort zone. Like sometimes I'll get a little survival brainy and I'll be like, oh my gosh, maybe I shouldn't do that. But I know now how to catch it. I know where it lives and I know how to be like, mm, I see you. And now it's like, oh my gosh, yes. Like, 'cause I know every time, and I've seen this with all of my clients, not some, all of them, when they get outta their comfort zone, you are never bummed about it. Like, when you— like, I mean, that sounds so mediocre way of saying it, so let me try again. But like, when you get out of your comfort zone, there has never been a time I've gotten out of my comfort zone where I was like, ah, shucks, wish I hadn't done that. Like, every single time, even if it absolutely failed miserably, I still learned something, or I still grew to a new level, or I still met someone along the way who helped me then in a totally different way that I wasn't expecting. And And I think that's kind of where we have to like release the reins and just— I don't love the phrase trust the process because I think it's really overused. But I think trust is the main word here. You have to just release the reins and trust that universe, God, creation, something bigger has you. And it is not all on your shoulders to take charge of things. And I need to hear this just as much as I'm saying it.

Yeah, yeah, we all do.

Yeah, we all do. Because we love grinding our nails and our talons and all of the stuff and the entrepreneurship, you know, we love taking control. But we also have to to release a little bit and say like, there's something bigger out here. Like, here's a great example. So last year, January of last year, my coach at the time was like, hey, you know, what do you want to do in the next 5 years? Like, what are your big goals? And I was like, okay, well, a huge one is I want to be a TEDx speaker. That is huge. And she goes, okay, I love that, start applying. And I was like, what? Like, I know I said 5 years. She goes, I know, start applying.. And I was like, okay. So 52 applications later, I was still getting a bunch of no's. Again, overachiever, here we are. But here's the deal, I never burnt out. I did 52 applications. I never felt stressed. I never burnt out cuz I used that 0 to 100 method with every single one of them.

Yeah.

Every time I heard a no, I was like, gosh, like, oh, this sucks. But I was also like, okay, something bigger has got me. And one of the TEDx here in Colorado was calling out for volunteers. And I was like, okay, you know what, like, I at least want to be closer to people who are doing this. I want to be in the proximity. I want to see how this process is run. And 2 days before the TEDx goes live, I get a message from the head volunteer who's like running the whole shebang. She goes, hi, all of our heads cannot be here. You said you liked logistics in your application. Would you like to head up the front of house of TEDx tomorrow? And I was like, I'm sure. So I do that. It was amazing. I didn't have time to freak out. I just felt guided the entire day. It was amazing. And now I actually work for them. I'm actually on their TEDx choosing committee. So I'm choosing a lot of the TEDx talks that are coming up soon. And it's like, that was so wild. And now I'm like best buds with the two curators. And I'm now able to ask them questions like, hey, like, I'm applying for this. Like, what do you think of this? Da da da da da. And like, you know, I know a TEDx is coming at some point, but this is in a totally different way than I ever expected to just apply and get accepted. So I never could have known this, but I had to lean back and trust the process and say yes to something that just fell into my lap. But if I had been clinging to those 52 applications like crazy, I don't think it's ever would've happened.

Yeah. Yeah. You bring up something so good, Nicole, with that story that perfectionism and like trying to control things oftentimes leads to you never getting to the thing you really want. Because like, like, we need flexy, like, we need flowy, we need, we need space to have mistakes, we need space to experience a different way of something coming into manifestation for us that we've been working through. But we have to be able to kind of let go of some of these parameters that nobody said is exactly what's going to help you get there. You did. Only you have thought this. Like, I have thought this so much for myself. Like, my husband will ask me, like, where did this feeling come from? Like, why do you feel like you have to do this thing this way? And nobody has said it. Nobody has said it except Nikita's little head. And I call her Linda in there. Linda is like telling me, yo, this is your expectation, this is our expectation here, you can't do it any other way, and if you don't do it this way, you're in trouble, or you're not going to be perceived a certain way. And that's— that Linda, I have to tell her to shut up. I have to tell her, look, we're gonna just let this roll and see what happens. And I, like you, every time I've done that, it's been so much better, so much better than I've ever could have like imagine it ever.

Yeah. Well, I think so, so often the reason why this is so ingrained in our head is if I'm scrolling through social media—

Ugh, girl.

Oh my God, that was amazing. If I'm scrolling through social media, I just want to— every time I say the word social media, I want that to be like ingrained in my vernacular now. Every time we scroll through social media, we are seeing X amount of people achieving certain amount of, especially in the, in the entrepreneur social media is exhausting. Mm-hmm. Because it's like, look at me, I hit X amount of months. Look at me, I got X amount of people in my program. Look at me, I hit X amount of sales. Like, and it's all this end result, end result, end result. And we expect ourselves to just plop down again right at that end result. Mm-hmm. We didn't see the days where they cried themselves to sleep cuz no one was signing up. We don't see how many people they hired in the background to meet this quota or to be on all these different platforms or how much they invested in advertising. We don't see how many years they've been doing this. They, we don't see how many thousands of dollars they've invested in a coach or a mentor. Like we don't see that background stuff, but we never remember to catch ourselves on that. And that's why, like, I mean, I have a time limit on my social media accounts because I just, I am not, This is actually— here's a good— Nicole's still very much an imperfectionist. She still kind of like crawls up there sometimes. This morning, I am really good about not checking my social media in the morning. Like, it is my— it is an energy suck to me. It immediately feels like I'm not enough. I cannot stand it. So I checked social media this morning and I'm scrolling for like 10 minutes and I'm already feeling my energy just totally tanking. And then I'm starting to think about, well, I need to do all these things today. By the way, these are like week plus, even some like month or year long goals that I'm like, I need to do today. It's Monday, I gotta get it all done. I have X amount of free time, I can do it. And I had to catch myself when I was, when I was like looking at my, like I literally, I literally like went as far as pulled out my computer and started opening up my calendar to see like, what can I do? And I was like, whoa, hold on. And that's how sneaky it can be. I am, I am a perfectionist coach. I've studied perfectionism for years. And it can still get me like that sometimes. Now, luckily, I caught myself. I closed my computer and I went to the gym and I pretended the world did not exist for an hour. It was wonderful. I loved it. And then I came back and I was like, okay, let me like get back into coach mode and let me get back into Nicole growth mode. Because what happened this morning was a troll. I don't know who she was. She just came up about me and I just— oh God. So I put her to bed. I said, thank you so much for sharing, but go back under your bridge now. Thank you very much. And so here I was coming back into it, and it doesn't happen like this. It doesn't just totally shift like a 90-degree. It took little 2-degree shifts throughout, but eventually I started feeling normal again. And I think a lot of us don't have the patience sometimes to go from I feel terrible, I feel like a troll under the bridge, to back to baseline zero, because we're— I actually use this analogy with my clients a lot. This morning version of Nicole, she held a shovel in her hand and she was digging a hole, digging a hole, digging a hole, digging a hole. And it wasn't until she was 10 feet deep that she realized she was 10 feet underground going, oh, why do I have this shovel in my hand? What's going on? But immediately I looked at me, at myself, 10 feet underground, and I said, oh my gosh, I'm in a really bad spot. You know what's a good spot? Flying in the sky. Normal Nicole, she's high and she's high and happy. She's doing really well. She's growing. She's flying in the sky. Let me jump from 10 feet underground to flying in the sky. We can't do that.

Mm-mm.

I had to pick up that shovel again and carve my little boot, my booty, some stairs to solid ground. And then I could jump into the sky. But we forget that process. We demand sky from us, whereas we need time to get to solid ground before we can get back up. And sometimes I spend my whole day trying to get back to solid ground, but at least I got to solid ground. So the next day I could be in sky mode.

That is such a good analogy. Like, it's so good. Like, y'all remember that? Like, that's such a good one because it's so true. I mean, it's kind of like you have to build the stairs out of the hole that you put yourself in. There's an Adele song that— I love Adele. I love music. So there's an Adele in this 30 album where she's like, she says something about a storm. And then she's like, I have to stay. Like, I have to wait this storm out. Before I can leave it. And it's like, you cannot like just storm wish it away. Like, you, you created this mess, you've got to get out of it. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, you've got to work your way out of it.

Yeah.

And I think when you were talking, the thing I was thinking about, because I'm thinking about a client in my head, and I'm just thinking it's not just her, it's all of us, where it's like, because we've digged the hole we think that we haven't accomplished what was already on top before we started digging, right? Like, you have a beautiful bush and you have like beautiful flowers and you're like, oh, I need to build another one because it's not good enough. So you start building like this hole that's 10 feet long because for some reason you need roots or something. And you're like, you know, you're like, oh, you're like, wait, this is too deep. But how do I get back up? What do you do when you are looking like— if you're an entrepreneur and you have created this foundation for your business, it's doing well, you're growing, it's not like perfect, but you see that your fruit, your work has created fruit, and yet you feel like you need to keep building more fruit. Like, oh yeah, instead of like leaping to the next place, what would you tell that person.

I don't know if you can see it right here. I have a canvas that says life is mastering the art of when to speed up and when to slow down. Mm.

Ain't that the truth? Yes.

Entrepreneurs, especially perfectionist ones, have mastered speed up.

Mm-hmm.

This foot is slammed on the gas. They're masters at speed up. They always want more. They always want more flowers. They always want better flowers. They always want bigger flowers. They always want the more expensive flowers. And if we are constantly looking forward, we are never able to appreciate the flowers that we currently have in our garden. Mm. So my number one tool for these people is to start flipping practicing gratitude daily.

Yeah.

And I, I, I, I'm normally not this black and white person when it comes to exercises like this, but this is, in my opinion, one of the most non-negotiable. Exercises, especially as an entrepreneur, because you're always thinking about next. You're always looking at next month. You're always looking at next quarter or next week, whatever. And you have to learn how to appreciate how far you've come, because or else when you hit that level of income, of clients, of sales, you are not going to appreciate it because your brain is hardwired for more. So my fiancé and I actually have a practice that we do every night, and we call it appreciations. They actually call it appreciations because we said it with a W one day and it stuck.

So, oh, that's so cute.

We call it appreciations. But every night we say 5 things that we're grateful for from that day, and it's, it is from that day. It trains us to look for things throughout the day. 5 things that we're grateful for from the past day. Then 1 thing we did accomplish, because we're always looking at what we didn't, right? So 1 thing you did accomplish that day, and 2 dreams we have. And they're always dreams that are one that's a little bit closer. So for me it's like, I'm so excited to just be so present and enjoy our wedding day. And then one is, you know, maybe 5, 10+ years out. I'm so excited to X, Y, or Z. And so for us, that little practice, I mean, I, I don't say this lightly, it's changed our relationship. It's changed how we focus. It's changed how we interacted with each other cuz we started it in a very, Very, very, very, very dark spot for us. And that exercise alone has changed me going throughout my day from looking at all the things that way he put the dish in the dishwasher that didn't match up. Like, oh my God, it's changed me from looking at like those little minute things that used to get me so angry to now being in a spot where it's just like, oh, it doesn't matter because I'm looking at all these amazing things that he is. And they're— and normally these appreciations are not even relationship-based. They're just work-based or they're personal-based or stuff like that. But that little thing makes me fall so much more in love with him. Now, you don't need to do this with a partner. I have one because he's my accountability buddy with it. But I— before, I've done this on my own. I've done it in my own journal. I recommend doing it either right before bed or right when you wake up. My personal favorite is actually right when you wake up. Because then you're thinking about that and you're holding it true to you for the whole day. But please, for the love of God, start a gratitude practice. Yeah.

Gratitude.

I love that you share that because gratitude for me and my clients, especially living with chronic pain, is such a huge thing to have to affirm. One thing that I have similarly— that's an exercise. The thing that I think helps deeper, a bit deepen the gratitude to last a little bit longer, is to write what you're grateful for. Like, what are you for today? And then list 3 reasons why you are grateful for that thing today that you accomplished before today, right? Because it took all these other things that you experienced to come to the day and be like, I am so thankful for I don't know, getting out of the bed today. But if you can be like, you know, I'm so grateful that before I showed myself love for the fact that I was in bed. And another point is like, I'm so thankful that I have the capacity to even lift my head up. And today, I'm out of bed. And I can be thankful for that. Those 3 things led to the thing you're grateful for in this moment.

Nikita, the chills that just shot up my body like an electric current, I can't even tell you. Oh my God, I'm going to try that. I love that idea. Yeah, you're smart. That's really good. That's really good.

Yeah, it is. It's something that I learned through positive psychology when I have been learning that as a coach. And it's, it's just made my life so much more richer. It was already— I felt like it was already rich, but I think we as a society are so used to like, we still are kind of surface. Like, let's just be real. Like, we— I mean, social media has made us surface people, like, you know what I'm saying? We're like, oh, that's good. That's where we live our life. But I think we have to make an intentional part of deepening some of these things that we hear so much about because it shows us like it's so much more than just like what today is. It's also the practices that we've put in place that led us to these moments that we can be grateful for. And so When I learned that, I was like, this is a game changer, and it's been a game changer for me. And it turns things that were negative in some way into a more positive information, lifestyle choice that you actively have said that I chose to do those things to lead to here.

I love that because so often one of the things that I started really early on in my business, and I'm so grateful I did this, was anytime I had a flop or something not go the way that I wanted it to, like the, the, the thought that always comes to my mind is when I launched, it wasn't even my first, I think it was like my second or third masterclass. No one showed up. My mom did. Sweet Peggy Baker was there ringing bells and whistles. I'm so grateful for her. But I, I, I gave that thing my all. I closed down and I immediately started like rioting in tears. I mean, just like I, I went into, it was, my boyfriend, he's now my fiancé, but went into, you know, our bedroom and just like curled up in his lap and just sobbed like a toddler for like 2 hours because I was like, no one is listening, no one's paying attention. I'm doing everything wrong. I'm never gonna get to where I wanna be. I wanna change all these lives and no one's showing up and I'm so mad. And that after, you know, again, 2 hours, I'm, I'm now a raisin. I have nothing left in me, right? And something clicked in my brain and it's stuck with me ever since. And it's like someday you're gonna be on a stage or you're gonna be on a podcast and you're gonna be talking to other entrepreneurs and you're gonna share that story and it's gonna inspire them to show up and have no one but their mom watching them because they know that it can bring you to somewhere else. Now for context, I just launched my, my, my next masterclass. I launched it publicly for the first time today. I already have 80 people showing up. Yeah, that is the difference. That's showing up consistently and overcoming again, being willing to change, being willing to get outta your comfort zone again and again and again. That is what the, the fruit of that bears. Like it comes up, I promise. But you have to keep putting one foot in front of the other. And by the way, if what you're doing isn't working, stop doing it harder, please. Please. I have perfectionist syndrome.

Stop doing it harder.

Stop doing it harder. 'Cause I've seen so many perfectionists be like, Well, you know, this one, uh, launch strategy wasn't working, but I just didn't do it right. Let me do it again. They're miserable the entire time. They're having no fun. That's probably why it's flopping. And then we change a few things so they have more fun with it, so that they're enjoying it more, so that they're actually like able to have more free time. They're not like devoting their entire 24/7 to it. And like, it sells out. And it's like, you're allowed to change things. Stop doing it harder if it's not working for you. So I totally stepped on a high horse for a minute on that subject, but like consistency is really the name of the game in business and it can be scary to be consistent sometimes because there are bad entrepreneur days. I still have 'em more often than I'd like, which is never, which I, I'd like to have them never, but you know, we still have 'em cuz new level, new devil. You're always gonna have something.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

That is the truth. That is the truth. New, new level, new devil.. It doesn't matter how much money you have. I was just in a mastermind call with multi-millionaire women who are like talking about stuff, and I'm like, y'all, like, this ain't— if this ain't letting you know that it doesn't matter how much money you have, you still have this mindset drama. You still have this mindset drama. It's just about how quickly do you get out of those things and recover. So yeah, I definitely agree with you on that point. Just gotta keep plugging through and doing what you can and give yourself some grace. Like love on yourself, talk nicely to yourself.

Like, you know, I wish that I could go back to like way beginning Nicole and just be like, Nicole, I'd like shake her on the shoulders and I'd be like, have fun. Have fun. You're doing what you love. You are building a business that you have felt called to build. Your entire life, why are you putting so much pressure on yourself? Why are you trying to be something that you're not? At least for the first few years. Thank God I kicked that habit.

Mm-hmm.

Why are you making yourself miserable during this process? And I was, I was really making myself miserable. Mm-hmm. And I wish I could just go back and be like, hey Nicole, you're allowed to have fun with this. 'Cause I think I would've had a very different business. At the beginning. Thank God I have it now. But I would have probably saved at least 10 years that I've shed of my life, I feel like, from that, from that experience. But really and truly, and, you know, give yourself grace. You're doing the best with what you have right now, you know? Yeah.

And tap into resources. Like, you know, I am a huge component that not every coach knows the answers exactly for every single problem. And it's part of the reason why I have people like Nicole on the show, because, I mean, she's legitimately talking about perfectionism. If that's your deal, that's a hard thing. I also recommend you have multiple coaches that are in alignment with your values. But I definitely think, like, just acknowledge, like, it's not anything— nothing's wrong with you, quote unquote. Like, nothing's wrong with you. Nothing's wrong with me. There's nothing wrong with Nicole. We're just humans. We're trying to get to where we're going without all of this shame and guilt and drama that we have going on. And so Tell us, Nicole, like how can people connect with you? Where can they find you? Anything fun and exciting happening so that they can join and learn more about your community?

I am everywhere @lifecoachbaker, so I'm most predominantly on Instagram. If you're listening to this, please come send me a DM. I am @lifecoachbaker on there. I'd love to say hi and connect with you. If what I'm saying though is resonating with you and you're like, I would like to have a call with her, I offer free 30-minute calls. And they are, they're discovery calls. They're not sales calls. I'm very big on that. So it is you and me on a call for 30 minutes where we do actual coaching. Like you leave that call with tactical takeaways. So you can sign up for one of those at lifecoachbaker.com/discoverycall. Or if you go to Life Coach Baker, it's just one of the things at the top. And do I have anything coming up? I do. So I always have stuff going on. So if you honestly go to my website or my Instagram, that's gonna be where you find out. The top 2. But seriously, if stuff I said with you resonated, hop on that discovery call. They are gold. I've literally had people like cut their work week in half. I've had people go full-time just from those 30-minute calls alone.

Yeah.

Like they're, they're gold. So hop on, hop on one of those if you'd like.

Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Nicole. I would love for you to close us out with like one thing that a perfectionist would need to think about in order to shift into not being so perfectiony?

Perfectionism is really a habit of looking at all the reasons why you're not enough. Ooh. Overcoming perfectionism, if I had to put a blanket statement on it, it is starting to look at all the reasons why you are enough. So fill yourself with knowledge on how to do that. Surround yourself with people who make it easy for you to do that. And I'm a big believer in you are the 5 people you hang out with the most, by the way, and that includes podcast hosts. So if Nikita Williams is someone who does that, keep listening for a show. So really and truly, start shifting that mindset to how am I more than enough? And it's not overnight, but it does work.

I love that. That's so good. Oh, thank you.

That's a wrap, y'all. Thanks for tuning in to Crafted to Thrive, the podcast that helps entrepreneurs with chronic illness to thrive and build a holistic business and life. Check out our website at craftedtothrive.com for this episode's show notes and all the gifts and goodies. Connect with me on Instagram @thrivewithnikitawilliams for more tips and behind the scenes and more. Tag me to share what you loved about this episode, and I'll feature you on an upcoming episode. So until next time, remember, yes, you are crafted to thrive.