Cultivating Friendships as an Entrepreneur with Chronic Illness with Danielle Bayard Jackson

Why is finding really good friendships so hard as an adult? Have you ever wondered that? Have you ever wondered like, what happened to my tribe, my ride or die in the last 10 or 15 years? Well, if you're anything like me, cultivating friendships, living with chronic illness hasn't been easy. It definitely has some landmines and pitfalls. That I personally have experienced. And this is a common thing that comes up even between my clients who are trying to balance the life of living with chronic illness, growing a business, and also having a social life. And as we all know, having a social life with chronic illness has its issues, but it is possible. And I wanted us to talk to one of the experts on friendship, Danielle Baignard Jackson, who is going to share with us how we can cultivate relationships, friendships, even though we're living with chronic illness and running a business. And what I love about this episode is that she is going to dive in not only into some practical tips on how we can do this, but some research that really helps us bring some more awareness of why it's not just you. It's not just you who's having this issue of making girlfriends and being friends. It's not just you. It's for all of us in this new age of internet and just being really busy in our lives on top of all the things that are going on in the world. So I can't wait to have this conversation with Danielle, and I know you will enjoy it because you will learn how to cultivate some friendships living with chronic illness while you're growing a business. So stay tuned.

Welcome to Crafted to Thrive, the globally ranked podcast for entrepreneurs living with chronic illness. I'm your host, Nikita Williams, and After being diagnosed with multiple chronic illnesses myself, I figured out the surprisingly simple missing links to growing a profitable business without compromising my health. Since then, I've helped dozens of women just like you learn how to do the same. If you're ready to own your story and create a thriving business that aligns with your health and well-being, you're in the right place. Together, we're shifting the narrative of what's possible for entrepreneurs with chronic illness. This is Crafted to Thrive.

I am so excited to have Danielle Jackson on the show. We have— I feel like I've been in your world for a long time, Danielle, since our Babe Crafted days in Florida when I was in Florida. And I'm so excited to talk to you about friendship because we all need friends. So please tell us a little bit about where you are right now in life, and we'll hop into our conversation real quick.

Yeah, so life is great right now. Things are really happening with friendship coaching and working as a friendship educator. And, and I, I like to say that because when I started this work 6 years ago, it was not a thing, and we got some pushback. But things are going really well, and it's been a really fun journey to be able to leverage my background in education to share with women what the latest research has to say about women's cooperation, communication, and conflict. So I'm so excited for these kinds of conversations. And I thank you for facilitating a moment to have this discussion because it's important.

It is so important. And it's also a hard thing. Like, I love that your book coming out in 2024, which is still weird for me to say, but it's going to be talking about fighting for friendships, right? And I think that's really what it feels like for many of us. So I want to talk about your journey with friendships. I have listened and follow your advice. Half of my clients are like, did you hear her podcast episode that she just came out about friends? I'm like, girl. And I'm like, girl, I know. It's so good. What has been your experience? Who was your friendship coach?

That's so interesting. That's a great question. I think my friendship coach— coach in air quotes— has been a composition of lots of different influences, having certain friends who Maybe the friendship didn't last, but they, you know, I, I had a friend in college who taught me how to apologize because we weren't saying sorry when I was growing up in my house. That was weird. But she normalized it for me to humble yourself and say sorry, you know, to, you know, show a friend romance and to, you know, tell her she looks pretty and you thought of her. I've had friends teach me that. And so thankfully I have learned how to, you know, be a good friend through various offerings that I've received from the women in my life.

Mm.

Let's talk about that for a minute because I think it takes so much courage for a friend on the other side to say, hey, by the way, you don't say sorry. What's up with that? So how has that— how have you had to learn to be that kind of friend and receiving that kind of friendship critique?

Yeah, you know what? I think a couple of things were at play. One, she had shown me evidence over the course of our history as friends that she means well. So it's easier to receive that kind of feedback from somebody you believe only means well for you and that it's not a shady thing. She's not trying to humble me. She's not trying to— so it's easier to receive. So there was some kind of safety there to receive that. I think what also helped is realizing that it's something you're always learning. I mean, think about it. When I was in college, you know, I was a— on the younger side. So I'm like 19 having this conversation, 18. So I don't really know. I just know the experiences I had with maybe the same high school friend you had 4 years. You get out into the world. I don't know. What do other people like? What's normal for them? This has been working for me. Maybe they were unhealthy friendships, but it's been working, quote unquote. So I think realizing it's a continual process of figuring out how to better relate to other people made it a little bit easier to internalize. And then also, the last thing I'll say what made it easier take feedback is not personalizing it too much. I know there's so much chatter around that, but I think if you have some level of self-confidence and you believe you have a lot to offer this world, then you don't feel so fragile when people offer you certain ideas or push back. You don't fall apart. You're just like, okay, that's interesting. You're right. You know? And so I think a combination of those things made it easier to receive.

Oh, I love that you brought that up because I think it kind of lends to the conversation I've heard you say is like, what kind of friend are you being to yourself in general before you start seeking other friends to like validate or pursue things? Like, check yourself first. That's something you always say. Like, what about you? Come on. Talk about yourself. Like, what's going on? Like, let's be honest. And I think what I'm hearing you say is that you had to discover what that looked like for you.

Yeah, and you might be hurt by certain relationships, but you also heal in relationship. So there are things about myself I cannot improve or soften without somebody else pointing it out to me because I have blind spots.

So is there research that says that's true? Because I feel like we hear that all of the time, and nobody backs that up with any factual information. It's just like what I feel like that's the things like my grandmama used to tell me, or my mama used to tell me. I'd be like, yeah, uh-huh, but so I know you love research, so tell us a little bit if there's anything that correlates to that.

Yeah, so it's kind of tricky. They have gotten better about the things they're able to quantify with research friendship because we define friendship different ways. And so it's hard to nail down. But yes, many people say that one of the benefits of friendship is personal growth. And that personal growth would come through feedback, through a different perspective. So it can be— it can definitely be helpful in those ways.

Yeah, I believe that. I feel like when you're triggered by a friend, usually it's something that you're insecure about yourself. And it shows it up, like, real, real big. And you're like, oh my gosh. And then you walk away, and you're like, ooh, why did I respond so harshly when it was just a statement? I love that.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's if we can get there. Because to your point, I love that you said, like, our triggers, you know, you're in a place where you can get to that point where you're like, OK, this keeps happening. Maybe it's me. But it's interesting because I do get kind of alarmed when I hear women say, you know, all my friends have always this, or women are always this, or every friend I've ever had. And I get nervous when we use language like that because at some point, if that's the narrative of every experience you've had, that does make me curious about, about your contributions to that situation. So when we say things, and I don't mean to blame the victim or anything like that, but when we do say things like, everybody takes advantage of me, all my friends, always they're pushing my boundaries. They always— OK, now we can't control others' behaviors. But if you find yourself genuinely using the language of they're always jealous of me, every friend I've had, it does make me curious about what your role might be in those dynamics.

Such a powerful one. If you need to pause and rewind and go back and listen to that, that's something— just a point. What has been some of your biggest challenges personally with friendship that's helped you grow in your own personal development?

Nobody ever asked me that. Nobody ever asked me that. You know, I'm— Nikita, this is strong for me because I actually said I'm gonna work on trying to share more about myself. I haven't been very comfortable doing that because I like, I like hiding behind the blazer and the research. I like being like, oh, you know, there's this new study, isn't it interesting? And then leaving and letting them do their thing in the comment section. Feels very safe and appropriate to me. And so, um, I guess especially, you know, you're you're on social media, you know, I would like to think I'm brave. But then you also know when you put stuff out there, people can pick it apart. They don't have context of who you are. They just see something in isolation, one post, and they come for you. So I think it's trained me to withhold personal stuff. But I'm trying to do better about that. And for me, I think a struggle that I've had in friendship that I am working on is two things. One is I am an extrovert, and I enjoy people very much. So I'll meet a girl and be like, oh my gosh, she's so cool. And my husband jokes that I'm always like, she's like smart, and cool, and funny, That's like my trio statement for everybody. She's smart, and cool, and funny. And you only have so much capacity. And so it has affected the friendships that I prioritize most because I'm stacking my social calendar with all these exciting, let's go to coffee, let's go to this thing, let's take a trip, blah, blah, blah. And then you have friends who you claim to care about most who you aren't spending as much time with or checking in on as much as you could be, you know, being— very present and attentive because you're trying to do all the things. And that's why sometimes I'm worried about, you know, extroverted clients, because we, we have all these people on the roster, but how seen and known are you? How supported do your main people feel? Or are you continually distracted by just trying to do all the things with other people? So I'm working on that. I'm also working on vulnerability because I don't know what it is, but sometimes I bring the brand into friendships or they'll ask me tough questions about myself and I'll be like, Mm, yeah, that's a good question. I don't know. I'm still thinking on that. You know, like, it's a very PR answer. And I've had friends who are like, OK, now you're— don't be a robot. What's your real response to that? And it's hard. It's really hard. And I'm exploring where that comes from, that pressure to say the right thing, have it together, don't let people see you're kind of a mess. I'm working on that. And I really don't know where that comes from. But I, I, it's hard to know intellectually what the research says about conflict and connection and to not have it influence your, your real relationships. So I'm really trying, I'm actively working to, to be better about that.

Wow.

That's, that's really interesting. I'm an extrovert too, and I agree with you about that. I always feel the same way. I always feel like there's so many friends I need to connect with and it's hard to connect with all of the friends, right? You have the ones that have been in your life for a long time and then you feel like kind of like sad that you don't spend more time with them, but it's important to cultivate those relationships, to spend the time, because they cannot be friends if you don't spend time with them. Exactly. Is that easy?

Yes.

Yeah. And I, I get you about the vulnerability part. I, like, all my friends have always thought I was a coach, but now that I'm actually a coach, they're like, you don't have to coach me right now, Nikita. Like, we're good. And I'm like, oh, okay, thank you. That's good. That's good. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, I feel you on that. I feel you. So what are some of the things that you have learned from your clients who struggle with friendships?

What do you mean? Like, what have I learned from their experiences? Or—

yeah, what have you learned from your, like, working with clients that maybe have served you in your own journey? As a friend to your friends?

One thing I have learned from doing this work for 5, 6 years, which is really cool, is that the bravery that it takes to initiate is not something that stops at the very beginning. That relationship is a series of initiations and initiative and going first, going first. And I say that because a lot of the conversations I'm having with women are— they're at various points of their friendships. And at some point, the conversation reveals to us a space where she needs to go first. And I think a lot of times we think maybe that ends with like when you think a woman's cool and who's going to reach out first and who's going to suggest coffee first. But friendships are maintained through the courage to take initiative. Maybe it's having a tough conversation. Who's going to bring this up first because we both see it? Maybe it's realizing, man, we haven't stayed in touch. Who's going to be the first one? Or are we going to get in our heads about, you know what, I reached out to her last time. I shouldn't have to. Well, do you want to see her? Does she typically say yes when you extend an invitation? OK, then. You know, and I don't mean to minimize it. We all want to feel desired and pursued, even in a platonic relationship. But you know, come on with the game playing. So there's a series of moments in our friendships where we need to go first. And that does require you to be brave, to put your ego aside. I know there's so much talk around that. But I'm learning through watching them be brave. I can suggest things all day. Watching them be brave and then have their friendships be better for it because they're giving themselves permission to go first. And that is something I've learned by observing them that is influencing me and the decisions I make about my own relationships.

Oh, that's such a powerful— go first. That's a hard thing to do. I think you said in the beginning of our conversation, it's a humble thing to do as well. I think bravery does take a lot of humility regardless of other things, right? I think it does take a bit of that. So that's a powerful thing to take away. So I have some questions from my ladies in my world who are challenging with friendships. And so, you know, my audience are women who live with chronic illness who are running a business. So there's multiple hats that are happening with them in their lives. So it's not just their business, it's also life living with chronic illness. And one, having a business, you know, as an entrepreneur, is time-consuming. Time-consuming. And I remember you mentioned something in a previous episode. It takes 35 hours to make a friend, right? And I don't know about you, but that seems like a lot of time.

Like, where are those hours coming from, ma'am?

Exactly. Exactly. So for my ladies who feel already limited, this is something they're constantly working on. I'm working through too, is not to feel limited, but to find the space and the capacity to develop friendships that are mutually serving each other. What are some tips that they can do in order to create that time while managing a business, while managing living with chronic illness? Because that alone, for many of them, is a full-time job. How do they find 35 hours to cultivate relationships?

I know, right?

That's so tough.

And especially, again, with those specific challenges on top of that, just compounds the issue.

Yeah.

So what you're referring to is a study that came out, I want to say maybe 1, maybe 1 or 2 years ago, and they found that it takes 35 hours, 35, to take someone from an acquaintance to a friend. And so to your point, a lot of us are like, how? Now, now where am I getting this from? Times 3 people. So we're trying to like, you know, carry the one. How do I do this? And so a couple of things for people who feel very, You know, time restricted. The first is to get really clear about who those top 3 to 5 people are, because what we talked about earlier, we're trying to maintain friendships with 18 different people that we like well enough. We like their company. That's great. But time is a limited resource. So it doesn't sound very sexy, but we'd have to start by being strategic. So who are the 3 to 5? And let's go from there. Okay. Once we've got our 3 to 5, there's a couple different things we could do. One is we can establish what I call a friendship ritual, which sounds kind of cheesy, but essentially usually this is a recurring commitment that lets me know I'm going to see you, I'm going to talk to you no matter how the wind may blow my way, which offers a layer of security to the friendship. And it also makes people feel special that like there's going to be the sacred time every Friday at 10 that I'm going to call you for 30 minutes on my commute. That's your time, and I'm not doing anything else because I'm going to talk to you every Friday morning. So it gives some security, reassurance. I've also found this is helpful for women in, you know, new relationships because one common complaint is like, oh, she got booed up and now I see her. Well, if we've got a friendship ritual, I know I'm going to see you. And another benefit of that is it removes the mental labor of constantly looking in the calendar to figure out, okay, well, I can do Thursday, I could do— we're really great about honoring that calendar. I know it feels technical, but putting down in the calendar, blocking off 10 o'clock, that's when I talk to my girl. If you can afford to do that, you know, and you have the freedoms to do that, you know, that would be helpful. So that could look like every Friday, a phone call. That can look like the first Tuesday of every month, y'all do this trivia night at the place down the street, whatever the rhythm looks like for y'all. But at least I know I'm going to see you. Another thing is to get strategic about how we spend those hours because I know sometimes we're looking for more hours to use. But we might have to stack the ones that we've got. So maybe it looks like a co-work day where after every hour, we take 20 minutes to just talk nonsense. And then we get back into it. I got to work, but I also want to see you. Can I stack this time? Maybe it looks like socializing your interests. So maybe you typically read and watch movies and do art by yourself. Can we socialize those independent interests by just one degree? Can I ask her to come over and do something she wants to do while I do this painting for an hour? She doesn't have to paint as well. You know, can I ask her to come keep me company while I meal prep? You know, if I typically walk, you know, do my afternoon jog with my dog, Can I be like, hey, come tell me about your date? Do you mind coming with me? And can we run and talk?

You know?

But what are the things you already have to do that a friend can join you on? Whatever ideas we're subscribing to about those hours-long brunches, that's lovely when those can happen. But when you've got things going on, maybe hanging out with friends, we need to reimagine what that looks like. Otherwise, we're going to keep saying, I just don't have time for friends. Because in your mind, it looks like 3 hours on Saturday afternoon, and you don't have it. But you do commit 30 minutes every day to jogging. And the final thing I'll say on this is, if there's any part of you that hears that suggestion, you're like, I don't want to be like, hey, come jog with me, or come run errands with me, that's, that's not going to be exciting enough for her. Most women are fine to just do that. And two, if you feel like you have the kind of women in your life that you'd be embarrassed to ask walk with you while you go grocery shop, I would encourage you to look at why you feel you have to have something very exciting and entertaining to buffer a conversation. Because one thing we often say is, I want to feel seen in my friendships. I want women I can just— you know, I could just— they could just roll in my house and we don't do anything but sit on the couch. OK, then. You know, so we just, I think, have to look at time differently and see that, OK, we do have time. We just have to maybe be a little more strategic than we were before.

That's such a good— such good advice. I think, too, for women living with chronic illness, there is a label or a level of safety that they need to have with their friends in order to do some of those activities, right? Because, you know, you might— we do a lot of lounging because we in pain and we watching TV or doing like work or something from our sofa. And so to have a friend you feel comfortable enough to see you in that state, to your point, you gotta really be close to those people. You have to feel safe enough to invite them into that space. And so to your point, maybe not all your top 5 friends are those people. Maybe it's 2 of those friends to consider to develop that deeper relationship. That's such, such good advice. The other question I have for you that has been constantly a challenge for myself even is working from home. The reason why I have a business and a lot of my clients who have businesses It's because we can do it from home. We can be at home. We're not, you know, we're not going to all of these events, maybe one or two, maybe like when I say maybe, maybe a month. We're comfortable in doing these things at home because it allows us the freedom of our energy, our capacity, living with the things we have to deal with or going to the doctor's appointments, which is a whole nother thing, which hopefully if you have a good friend, she'll, you, you, you can invite her. But what, what kind of support can you tell folks or give people to be like, how can you make friends when you're not out doing all of the things? Like when you're working from home, you're not doing whatever it is that people do. It's even hard for me to think about it other than coffee and like at a networking event, like what are y'all doing? Like, so how do you create new or cultivate new friendships as an adult? Because I think as an adult, it's different than if you're in your teenage years. It's just very different.

Yeah, totally. Yeah, it does become tough when we have to facilitate these moments for ourselves. The research tells us that our social networks grow and grow until about the age of 26, at which point they begin to shrink. And it's because at that time, people start to adopt different interests and pursue different paths. I mean, we were all together during college, and we constantly had this backdrop, this social institution of school to tell us going to go to school. We're doing everything together in the dorms for some people. So now you come out of that and you're like, some people are establishing family ties. They're very focused on getting married, having a baby. Some are like, I got to climb up the ladder in this job. I'm willing to move for my job and I'm going to spend hours in my job to like move up to partner. Okay, so we're prioritizing different things and then we are putting friendship on the back burner. Then we come out of whatever haze we were in, we're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what happened? Where did everybody go? Okay, because we didn't prioritize it. So it does become tricky to like, okay, how do I make new friends for myself, especially if I have chronic illness, my schedule is unpredictable, my energy is unpredictable. So a couple of things. One is leveraging technology, which some of us are already doing. But there are apps like Bumble for Friends. You're probably already familiar with Bumble. But then people started to hijack the app, and they were saying, hey, I'm just here for friends. So then they made Bumble BFF, and then that got so popular, now it's its own app, Bumble for Friends. And so I say that you can expedite the process of finding your people in a space where one, the baseline is we're all here to make friends. So I don't have to kind of worry about like, okay, is she open to this? That's why she's here. And then I'm putting from the very beginning what I'm looking for, what my goals are. I'm looking for somebody to play games with, to do the gym with, to whatever it is, but I might as well start from the very beginning talking about my capacity, what I'm looking for, what I'm prioritizing right now. And yes, I might get swiped over by people who are like, eh, I'm not, great. But it's going to bring me closer to women who are like, oh, same. Yes. And now we're matching, right? So there are forums now to help people foster friendships in the same way we would romantic relationships, which thank God for that. We can also do things like stay open to having potential— like having like coworkers or people who work for us become friends. Now I know this is where it gets sticky and people are like, OK, now. I need separation. And that is true. But the number one place where adults make friends is in the workplace. I know as entrepreneurs in the digital sphere, sometimes that looks a little tricky. We can't walk down the hall to Keisha and be like, oh my God, that meeting was crazy, right? So it makes it a little bit tougher. But are there people who are your vendors, contractors, who you've worked with a couple of times? And when you guys are on Zoom, it's kind of a good time. Like, you're talking business, but you're also like, man, she's cool. OK, so again, in a natural, appropriate pacing, But the quickest thing you can do to maybe turn that into a friendship is to start introducing new topics to the conversation because it probably is work-focused. And so maybe I just like, you know, on a Monday I'm asking her, you know, what was the highlight of her weekend? Just to like give her a chance to tell me she went to Disney or she spent time with her kids. I didn't know she had kids, you know. So can you just be brave and introduce a new topic of conversation to see if you guys can vibe in a different way? People are making friends with people who started out as coworkers. That's okay. As long as everybody's comfortable and we know what's cool or not. And so I think that those are two ways that if you find yourself mostly at home, you can start building connections. And the last one I'll say is the few times you are out, you make the most of them. So I mean, even at Target, I'm not saying you're going around with a friend radar, like I'm going to turn these people into friends, but people have made things happen with somebody who was a stranger, like being comfortable standing in line. And I see that they have a t-shirt on that shows they went to the Beyoncé concert and be like, oh, Oh my God, girl, what was your favorite part? What was your favorite part? I mean, you think that's weird? Most people are relieved that somebody else got the conversation popping first. But from there, then I can say like, okay, well, I won't hold you up, but like, good luck. If you go to any other shows, let me know. Are you an Insta? You know, a lot of people are comfortable. And so making the most of the outings you do engage in just to connect with people, maybe it doesn't go anywhere. Maybe it was just a pleasant conversation on a Tuesday afternoon that boosted your mood according to the research that talking to strangers makes us feel happy. So staying open to what can it look like under the conditions that I have.

Such good advice. I love it because it's just really qualifying your time, being very intentional about your time, your effort. And it doesn't have to be fancy. It doesn't have to be like all this big hoorah like what we see on movies all the time. Road trip and these big extravagant things. So I love that you simplified that. That was such good advice. So I just appreciate you coming on and sharing a part of your story with friendships. And I'm also excited to hear what can we expect in your book coming up in 2024? Like, what should we be, like, juicing and, like, just being, like, telling everybody about what's happening? What's going to— girl, you can't wait to get your hand on this book. Book.

Yeah, I'm really excited for it because, you know, I'm in this space, so I, I read all the things about friendship and people tag me in the videos, which is very fun. But I noticed something. I'm noticing that the books that we have on the subject, some of them are either very highbrow and they're by a psychologist who has very interesting information to say about connection and all that, and that's very interesting. But a lot of times it leaves you kind of like, okay, you know, what do I— what do I do with that? And I'm sure you hear that a lot as a coach. People are like, OK, what do I do now? OK. Or I notice that it's these books with like all these tips and tricks and hacks. And I don't know, I feel like that is maybe helpful in some sense. But then you're walking around with this disjointed collection of random tips, and then it's not rooted in any research. It's just tips that a girl made up. And so I just think that both are really important. It is really important to know what can I tangibly do to have better friendships, but also to know why. And, and a lot of women who follow, and I'm sure your audience too, I know are intellectuals. They're smart, they're running business, so they don't need to be talked down to with 5 tips on how to go to brunch. They wanna know not just what can I do, but help me understand what are the mechanics of women's friendship? Why do I feel disconnected? Or why do I actually have everything else in my life together, but dang, I keep getting this wrong. And so the book is tentatively titled Fighting for Our Friendships, and it's all about how to overcome after something awkward does go down, because there are so many articles and whatnot on how to make friends. And there's a little bit of that in there too, because that's important. But once we've got them, it almost feels inevitable that there's going to be some moment where it got kind of tense or she misunderstood. So there's a little guidebook in there on how to handle 9 of the most common issues, but it's sandwiched between more big idea chapters. Why do we fight? What brings women together? What makes us fall out? And my hope is that after women read it, they're like, oh my God, I didn't know there was a language for all the things I've privately been kind of struggling with and thinking it's just me. That is my hope. And so it doesn't come out until May, but we're really excited about it. And women have been very engaged and supportive. So I'm excited to get it in their hands and hopefully get the conversation started.

Yeah, I'm excited about it too, because to your point, you're— it's a collective. I like, I like how you're saying that it's like pulling all of those two places together, not just like what the doctors say and the research says, but like, how do I implement this into my life? And also be aware, I also feel you speak a lot around like, where are you responsible for the things that are happening in your friendships? And I think that's going to help to put you kind of in the seat to be even more empowered to create friendships that that are great and that when they have the downs, you can work through them and not just be like, I'm cutting you. Because we do that. We cut people. We cut people out of our lives. So I'm looking forward to this. Well, thank you so much for being on the show and sharing a bit of your story with friendships and your information on how we can cultivate them better. How can we find you?

Yeah, so I'm so happy to have been here and had this conversation, especially for this unique group, to offer some kind of support as a resource. You know, all the things live at betterfemalefriendships.com, the podcast, the articles, all the things. But at betterfemalefriendships.com is where we try to equip women with that big high-level understanding. And then we get down to like, now what, what do I do about it? And so, so far people have appreciated that approach and I'm just so excited to see what happens next.

Awesome.

Well, thank you again.

Thank you for having me.

That's a wrap, y'all. Thanks for tuning in to Crafted to Thrive, the podcast that that helps entrepreneurs with chronic illness to thrive and build a holistic business and life. Check out our website at craftedtothrive.com for this episode's show notes and all the gifts and goodies. Connect with me on Instagram @thrive_with_nikita for more tips and behind the scenes and more. Tag me to share what you loved about this episode, and I'll feature you on an upcoming episode. So until next time, remember, yes, you are crafted to thrive.