How to Start a Creative Business Imperfectly and Evolve Without Burnout | Margo Tantau

Ever feel like you're waiting for the perfect moment to start your creative business or worried that you need to pivot at a certain time in a certain way because life has thrown you some curveballs and it's time to pivot or just, you know, your life is changing. I know for me personally, I have gotten frozen at times in that space and there are certain things that help me and that's why I wanted to bring this lovely guest onto our show because she is the perfect person to talk about this. Her name is Margot Tantu, and I've connected with her on Instagram. I've been on her show, Windowsill Chats, and she's just a breath of fresh air when it comes to creativity and how to not allow perfection to get you stuck and not allow burnout to happen because you're not giving yourself permission to build your business in the way that works for you. And so Margot is a creative director, a licensing agent, and like I mentioned, the host of Windowsill Chats podcast, who's built her entire career by doing the opposite of what traditional business advice tells you. And she really does follow her gut. She uses her creativity to guide and to move her towards different things in her business. She starts imperfectly and she lets her business evolve naturally over time instead of trying to keep it in a box. What you wanna listen for in this episode is why waiting for perfect is actually what's keeping you stuck. And we talk about how Margot and I believe the only way to know what people want is to get the gritty side, the imperfect side of something out there. Number 2, the vulnerable phone call that our guests had that led to her inheriting a dream opportunity, showing that Collaboration, community, connection, and authenticity beat cookie-cutter marketing funnels every time. And number 3, how to reframe starting over as recalibrating. Mm. And why your past work is never wasted. It's your foundation. By the end of this conversation, you'll have permission to start your creative business or restart or pivot imperfectly, trusting your intuition over formulas, taking what is for you and leaving what isn't for you and build something sustainable that adapts to your life without the burnout. So stay tuned.

The only way you're really going to know what people want is to get the gritty side out there and, and just do it. It really doesn't have to be perfect because you're going to want to change it and evolve with it anyway. So I'm forever inspired by people who just put themselves out there. And if you're wanting to try something, I highly encourage you to find a way to do so.

Welcome to Business with Chronic Illness, the globally ranked podcast for women living with chronic illness who want to start and grow a business online. I'm your host, Nikita Williams, and I went from living a normal life to all of a sudden being in constant pain with no answers to being diagnosed with multiple chronic illnesses and trying to make a livable income. I faced the challenge of adapting traditional business advice to fit my unique circumstances with chronic illness, feeling frustrated and more burned out than I already was while managing my chronic illness, to becoming an award-winning coach with a flexible, sustainable online coaching business. I found the surprisingly simple steps to starting and growing a profitable business without compromising my health or my peace. Since then, I've helped dozens of women just like you learn how to do the same. If you're ready to create a thriving business that aligns with your lifestyle and well-being, you're in the right place. Together, we're shifting the narrative of what's possible for women with chronic illness and how we make a living. This is Business with Chronic Illness.

I am So like, I say this almost every episode, like, seriously, I'm so excited. But I am really excited to have Margot on the show. We had a conversation on her podcast. We've been following each other, I feel like, for years now. It feels weird to say that. I think we kind of came into the world of each other like during the pandemic, maybe. Yeah. And I just love what you're doing. I love your vibe. I love your essence. Whenever I look at you and listen to you, I think about the Make It show when they're like on the— and like how they're always so creative. I'm like, oh, she's like a walking Nikita Williams. I love it.

Thank you very much. Yeah.

So please tell everyone like how you would describe yourself. Obviously, we'll have, you know, your bio in the beginning, but I just kind of want to hear if someone were to walk up to you and be like, hey, what is it that you do? How would you describe that?

I've never been good at an elevator pitch because I have to— it would be— it would need many floors, that elevator.

I love that.

I used to, when I worked at Hallmark, I used to go 4 floors and I'd think like I'd practice. I'd be like, what is that thing that I want to do? And it would open on 4 and I'd still be like, I don't know. But seriously, I love that. My favorite thing is to be in the company of other creative people and help creative people get further than they knew they could get on their own. That's the basic net-net of it. I'm a creator as well. I told somebody the other day I was a secret silversmith. He's like, a secret silversmith? What does that mean exactly? I said, it means that nobody really knows I do it. And I do it just a few times a year because that's all I have time for. But I do get my hands— three-dimensional art for myself is is more my comfort level. I can draw in wire much, um, when I draw something in wire, it comes out like I see it in my mind. And when I try the same thing in pencil, so like, I used to make little things, like I had a business where I made things out of wire and sold it. But, um, last summer I had, I took a, just for fun, a friend was teaching a wire portrait class, and I kicked out this portrait of my kiddo, and I was like, yeah, that's how I see it. And other people are like, how do you do that? I was just like just my mind thinks dimensionally. I'm a product development person. That's one of my day jobs. So maybe that's why dimensionality is more my thing than, than a canvas. I just have never felt like I really hit my own style on a canvas, although I do like to mess around. I help other artists, and in my rare free time, I dabble myself.

Yeah, I think that's really cool that you do that. Like, I don't think everybody can do that. Like, I know not everybody can take something that's in their mind and then make it three-dimensional. I think it's hard for me to even just get it on the paper. So that is really cool. Tell us a little bit more about like product development. What did that look like for you when you're currently doing it?

Well, I always kind of am in some way or another, so, um, How it came to be, I've had a very entrepreneurial path. Actually, I think it probably started with the wire stuff. I was in retail probably before it was legal to pay me. But I did.

Seriously.

My boss got in trouble.

Don't tell anybody.

I was like 14. But I've always been interested in things. And my mom was an interior designer, so being around, looking through, like, beautiful fabrics and kind of creating a space and what goes into that space. And then I kind of drilled it down to, if you're creating a tablescape, what would you put on it? If you were building a holiday line, where would it be? What would it look like? What would be on the tree? What would be on the mantel? And so I worked when I, after I had decided I'd done all the entrepreneurial things I could without learning product development myself. I worked corporate so I could kind of travel overseas and, and understand factories and all that went into it. This was, you know, 25 years ago. There was a lot of— if I'd go to a show to see artists' work, it would be presented flat, you know, in a book or on a poster or something. And I needed to take that work and or I got to take that work and make it dimensional. What would this look like if we created a whole line out of it? And whether that line be for home decor or gift or stationery or holiday or whatever, whoever I happen to be working for. So as I would kind of talk to people that I ended up since 2014 teaching a class through Make Art That Sells, it was how as an artist, how to think that way, because I see So many portfolios and work where there's so much more opportunity to get your art out into the world as a creator now. Print on demand and this teacher and that teacher. But how do you really think that way and how do you take it in from more than one person? So you again, it's not, not unlike me not feeling like I'm in charge of my own painting style. How do you get your own style and start to show what your art can look like. So I've always done product development, but then I transitioned into teaching other people how to think dimensionally with their creativity as well.

Wow, that's a skill, Mark. That's a skill to be able to teach people to think that way. Like, wow, I think that's such a cool thing to be able to do. And you've been doing it like— it feels like from what you're describing, like you're teaching other entrepreneurs to do the same thing. I think This is a little bit of a tangent, but I promise it has a— I promise you it has something related to what we're talking about. So I am not a, like, I'm a creative person. I have a lot of ideas. Like, I love to draw flowers. I have sketches, I have sketchbook books everywhere, things that I've done in my journal. There's half sketches everywhere. Right. And I've always wanted, like, in the back of my mind, I'm like, one day I'm going to have like my own little like shop where I want to have like these sketches put on something, like put them on things and things like that. And my challenge has always been what's on the paper versus what's on the thing that I want it to be on. I don't know. I have no idea what I'm doing. I don't know what I'm doing. So I've tried it and I'm like, well, that's not quite it. That's not quite the thing. And This is really true. You guys are going to hear something from me I haven't said. Because of that, I've shied away from that aspect of my creativity because it feels like, well, I feel like I have to outsource that aspect of things. Like I have friends that are graphic designers that can in some way know how to translate what I've done into a thing. And that just feels like a whole extra step that I don't want to have to go through and I don't want to have to do. So what I hear you saying, bringing this back is like you're teaching other people who kind of have the same kind of thing of like, how do you make this to a different medium than where you probably have like put it on, right?

Exactly right. How do you think about that thing? And I know to your point, there's those things that stop us. And it might be that your music teacher in third grade said you can't sing, so you stopped. Or you— for me, when I very first took my very first jewelry class, which I always wanted to do, and I was in my 20s and I took it from a very precise, mathy, German, linear teacher. And I was like, well, I guess I'm not gonna be a jeweler because I don't think that way. I just said no. I had my tools and I put them away. I still have the same silver because I haven't used it all up yet. Then I found a teacher, I don't know, 10 years ago that we spoke the same language, or she came at it from a much more organic point of view. So the same thing, I get it where you're like, I see this happening, I see other people doing this, I can imagine it, but how do I get there? And we often think like, well, I'm not a whiz at Illustrator or Photoshop, so I guess I'm just gonna have to pack that away. But there's so many ways now that you can go about that. And that is what I teach that in, in the How to Design for Home Decor. That is the name of the class, but it's how to think 3-dimensional product basically. It's very in-depth because we talk about different substrates, wood, glass, metal, fabric, ceramics, but it's really the thought process. If I'm drawing a flower or a bird, how does that translate? Do I want to, am I the type of person that I'm in? That's interested in making it into a pattern? Do I just, am I just dreaming about seeing it on a mug or in a snow globe or on a pillow? You know, what is that thing? And so there are now tools that make it a lot easier, like the iPad and Procreate make it a lot easier to just draw something. And the other thing that makes it a lot easier are the print-on-demand companies that we have that will do it for you. You can go into Spoonflower and upload a little doodle and say, make me a repeat, and they'll make it for you.

I didn't know Spoonflower did that. I have a lot of friends who have used Spoonflower, and then they always make it seem like it's more complicated than I feel like it probably is. I feel like it's kind of like a little gatekeeping happening over here with some aspects of creativity when it comes to using those type of platforms. But that's interesting. I didn't realize that.

I would say most people upload their beautiful patterns, but if you have, like for, I did this, I had a little logo that my friend had for her business and she wanted to make these dog bandanas. And I was like, well, let's just pop that in there and make it a repeat. And I don't want to take the time to do it. Let's bloop, and they did it. So, but there's other companies that will, and even if you have a sketch, you sketched a beautiful flower, and that sketch you can see on something, if you upload it and, and you can, um, see it on different formats, it's still— all you might have to do is adjust the size of it, adjust the placement. That's not saying— that's not giving you the ultimate decision, but you, you can only put it on what that print-on-demand company can do, right? Totally. Yeah, but you can start a business if you want. Depending on the margin and all those things.

Yeah, I love that. I love that you shared that because there are a lot of creative people that listen to my show that live with chronic illness. And to their point, similar, I've heard them say to me like, hey, I love doing this. I love doing this sketch. I love doing these little things. But the thing, like, for me, the thing that holds them up is sometimes the technical aspect of like, how do you make this into a thing? Or into a business. And that's interesting about your experience because from the research that I did, I feel like you are just creative in general. Like, that's your vibe, that's your life, but you designed it that way. Like, it's— you transitioned from being mostly like in some level of corporate and then transitioned your whole life and way of being into like this creative direction that has led to like Windowsill Chats and your your course that you have. So tell us a little bit more, like, what inspired that transition? Like, what led to that being like, I'm designing this life differently?

Sure, absolutely. So I would say that I started out that way early on, and I went in and went out again. So I think part of it is growing up with a, a mom that decided once her kids were— and I'm not young, so my mom, you know, at some point decided to go to work as an interior designer. She had always wanted to do that. She took those courses in school, but then in her era, she was to be a teacher or a secretary or a nurse. Those were the things, right? Or an admin or school secretary. But she had taken these design classes, then she became a mom. And then when my sister and I were old enough, she started an interior design business, and it was still mostly men that were interior designers. There was a few women that— but I mean, and there weren't even very many. We lived in— and I grew up in the Napa Valley when it was— before it was fancy, in the wine country. And we moved there because my parent— we had lived in the San Francisco Bay Area, and they wanted a quieter place to raise their kids. And there were only 16 wineries when we moved there. So she was She ended up designing for some really cool jobs. She was the only game in town. She and this other guy were the only game in town. And so I grew up watching somebody achieve what they really wanted to do in their heart. So that was a built-in example. And I also had always heard the story that my dad worked for the bank for 2 years, Even though he was a pilot in the military, my grandfather said, no way, you can't be a pilot. No way, I'm not having it. And my dad said, after 2 years sitting behind a desk, I have to go fly. So he was a professional pilot for a commercial airline. In that time, it was kind of like, kind of crazy.

Yeah, because I mean, we think about it now, I think that's kind of like, okay, but back then that was not the normal, like, at all.

And they always told me, "You can be whatever you want to be. You can be whatever you decide you're gonna be." And I was like, "Well, I'm not sure I can do math, but other than that," you know, it was like, but you know, that's one of the things. And I was looking over some of your topics before we jumped on and, you know, what are the things that stop us? Well, we have to believe we can as well, right? We have to be able-bodied. Sometimes it's, finances are in the way or not in the, you know, whatever. So I've always had an entrepreneurial spirit and worked for small companies. And then when I got— then I had my own, then I went into corporate because I was like, I've reached that financial wall. Like, I don't want to go to China by myself. How do I figure that out? What? And then honestly, every time I thought I was going to start my own business, I would go to my friend's own businesses and see like all the bubble wrap, the, the the employees, the, the messy side, not the fun part. And I was like, I want somebody else to do that.

I want that.

No. So I went corporate for quite a while. Then last company that I worked for, COVID didn't go well during COVID and they, after 35 years of a wonderful family business, sold to another company. And it was my time of, okay, you've been talking about this forever. I had had the podcast for a while. Do it. Just do it. So, you know, things fall into place whether we see them or not. You know, people along the way would say like, what are you doing now? What job are you doing now? But each— I'm giving y'all permission— each thing along the way is leading to your next iteration. It's leading to your next best self. And if you follow your gut along the way, it's leading to what you want to be doing. So I'm exactly where I want to be.

I love that. I think it's scary though, right?

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Rent again.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

And people think you have your own business. Oh, you must be— you must have everything.

It's like you must be rolling in it. It must be so good. You must not have any— I don't know what people— these are people who don't have businesses who think this, right? Like, I really think that I'm like, Anyway, I'm curious to know, what do you feel like in those transitions of those shifts and changes? Were there things you're like, I don't really want to be doing this, but we'll try it. I don't know, this was a mistake. Like, what did those times look like for you?

I would say I had the most of those working for somebody else.

That's true.

Because there's a lot of cooks in those kitchens and everybody needs to like, you know, like, let me show you what I can do. And so you have a boss and then a new boss comes in. And so I was used to making decisions that were— that landed really well with my clients when I had my own business before corporate. So, yeah, then I went into corporate and the first company I worked for was great, but it was run by a woman, also unusual in 2000. Then it wasn't, then it was sold and sold and sold again. And everybody, 5 presidents in 4 years and they all have their own ideas. And it's just like after a while, like my inner voice was like, no, this does not align. And I have, my patience grows whisper thin when I'm, don't jerk me around, dude. I mean, I hope I'm pretty easy to work with, but when I see people not being mindful of their people and using them to their best abilities, or you go to a big place that has a great reputation and they say, we want to hire you because of your maybe outside-the-box thinking, and then you get there and they're like, kidding, get in the box.

You're like, get in the box. You're like, wait, no.

Yeah. So I didn't do so well in those situations. I did as well as I could, but then I think being entrepreneurial doesn't go away. And if you, if any of you have that and you're, and you're wanting to lean in, you know, lean in. I think those were the hardest times for me when I felt like good ideas, not necessarily my own, but maybe my team. I had fantastic teams and fantastic people that are doing wonderful things. But are they being listened to, or are they just being assumed to be a certain way and have certain thoughts because of their title? For God's sake, that's just something somebody said on a piece of paper. So I just have a hard time when people aren't treated as their best selves.

Yeah, I always say I'm kind of— I feel oftentimes like if I had to work for somebody else, I'm kind of unemployable because I'm so specifically I've been an entrepreneur for more than I have been working for somebody else, right? And my life with chronic illness and my life with the way I think and the way it is very out of the box. And you try to put me in that box, my body will, my body will be like, we can't do this. Like, we cannot get in the box. You cannot do it.

You're my favorite kind of person to work with because you get that that's much more out there than people realize. So how can we serve those people?

Yeah, I love that. That's so true. I agree with you. I'll look for those type of people too.

I don't know, I just think you just have to follow your gut.

Mm-hmm. Have you done that in your business in that way, like followed your gut on like, this could work, this could not work? How has that looked like for you?

I think so. I also tend to not want to do what everybody else is doing, which is sometimes holds me back a little bit because I, I tend to take a little maybe too long to just get something out there. But that comes back. And I wouldn't say it's I'm afraid of doing it. It's just like, is it, is it good enough yet? We tend to overthink our own, you know, just put it out there and let other people tell you because you're gonna, you know, you're gonna be figuring it out the whole time. But no, I think, I think it's just a process.

I'm curious what led you to starting a podcast. And especially like, you're, you're like an actual OG. I tell, I joke with people like, I've been, I'm like the OG of podcasting. I'm like, no, I'm not. Oh, that's such a compliment. Like, I'm not. I mean, you have such a variety of like guests on your show. You have such a variety of topics on your show. That's cool in itself. But I'm, I'm just curious, what said Margo, let's start a podcast?

I have a notebook from yet another class I took, like how to get out there and do your own thing when I was in corporate. And this was way back in like 2014. And I wrote down, have a membership, start a podcast. I might have even written down, have an agency, like in 2014, 11 years ago. And so I thought, but like, who am I going to talk to? What am I going to talk about? What's my elevator pitch? So COVID hit. I found myself, as we did, we kind of glommed together in these little, who can I hang out with online? And I joined this just wonderful mastermind. And we were all very different people doing very different things, which I loved, because it brought a lot of different points of view in. And one of the gals said, okay, you keep talking about this, I D double dare you to pick a date to start this thing. And just start it, you know. And I thought, oh, I have to, I have to do it all myself. I have to learn all the things, and I have to learn how to edit, and what course am I going to take, and what other course should I take before— it's that typical thing. And, and because I had that group of cool, not necessarily like-minded but like-hearted women, I started it. And it's the most consistent thing in my life besides, I don't know, brushing my teeth. But I, I do it every week. I've shown up every week since 2000— September 8th, 2020. And I love it because I get to talk to people like you. It is so refreshing.

It is so cool.

Now when we're behind our screens and we're more, you know, I'm pretty sequestered. I work in my office a lot, and a lot of creatives or people with who don't feel so great or can't get out as much. Like, we're kind of working on our own little bubble, and when we can hear a like-minded, soul-aligned kind of conversation, I'm all for it.

I guess this is a question because it was a question for me. I didn't know anything about podcasting when I started podcasting. I was trying to start a blog. So when I'm like— when I hear other people who are like, yeah, I had it on my list, I'm like, Like, what prompted you into thinking, okay, a podcast would be a great creative space? Like, where did that come from?

I think because I tried blogging and I worked at it. I am not a writer. And when I— it was Blogspot when I tried in the dark ages, and you had to code to get a picture in there, or, you know, coding light, but you had to like put this thing in to get a picture. And I was like, No. So if I could just talk in a microphone and be done.

Gotcha.

That is how. And I also felt like I've been in the industry for a while. I have awesome connections, and I'm fascinated by people and their stories. It's COVID. Why don't I just have some conversations? Maybe people will listen.

Yeah, your conversations on the show sound like they're very reflective versus like these business interviews, like, you know, What has been the values that guide that process for you?

Thank you. I really like that question because I tend to go look at a title of a podcast of somebody else that I have followed for a long time, and I'm like, I don't think I wanted that business-y— I just want a conversation to listen to, or true crime. I'm a true crime girl. But I really like listening to people and seeing and feeling like I'm sitting down with them over a cup of coffee, and I'm really interested in what they have to say. So I don't have a script. I might have some questions that, that I have in mind, but we're off and running, and I'm, I'm just listening, and I, I'm— I'll ask a question based on where that conversation goes. So I hope it comes off as a just a path of two friends supporting each other.

Yeah. How did you come up with the name? Because that vibe of what you're saying totally sounds like a window seal kind of conversation. Like, you're like, I don't know where this is going, but we're going.

Another— like, I thought it would take forever for me to find the music for my podcast. And of course, I didn't want to pay for it. I was like, what are tunes that are, you know, open source that are whatever you call it, you know, like license-free. So I quickly was like, well, no. And I found a tune, it was late at night, and I found this little cool little tip that is still my song. And it was in Euros, and it was just a blip of it. And I was like, oh, I wish there was just a little bit more or just a little bit more instrumental, but I really like the words that they use. 'Come into my windowsill, listen, let's spin some records and catch up.' And I Googled them, and it turns out they were in with a music group that makes things for commercials and podcasts up in Portland, Oregon, not in, you know, Poland, where I thought they might. Oh wow, you're like, what? It's a very affordable license. I think I pay $100 a year to use that song. Um, and it says, 'Come sit in my sunny windowsill.' So I was talking to a friend another business mentor, and I said, I need to come up with a name of it. And she's like, well, I love that song. Why don't you call it Windusill Chats? And I was like, that's brilliant.

I will. Oh, I love that. That is so cool. I would never— yeah, man, that— I would never have thought that that's how it came up. I was like, when I was listening to— when I found you, I was like, man, that's such a cool name. How did she come up with that name?

It's from the song. And it was cute. It was very cute because the two guys that wrote it are Cousins, and they have a different name now. But on my 100th episode, I was like, I wanna, I wanna see what they're doing and reach out to these guys and see if they'll come on the podcast. So I sent them a DM and they're like, what? Like, what? And they, they're in LA and, and the Cheap Hotels is what they're called now. And, um, the music is not like that, but they just had released a new— it was just the They're the key.

Timing.

Funnest thing. And I just was like, y'all, you have no idea, but a lot of people really like this little ditty that you wrote.

I love that. I think when I listen to your conversations, Margot, I always think that you have known these people like forever. Like it comes across like that. Even when we had a conversation, I was like, I feel like I talked to her like a lot before this conversation. Like it feels so so natural. Do you think that's a, a skill you've developed after having, like, just being around, or that's just like part of Margot? Like, this is how I am, I walk in a space and people feel comfortable to talk to me.

Well, thanks, that's a big compliment. I would say if I was walking into a space, it would not— I would— there's something really comforting about a screen and not a room full of people for me. I'm a right on the middle introvert extrovert, right down the line. So I'm not the one that's like— but if I can get one-on-one with somebody, I really like that. And my mom always used to say, you know, if you're at a dinner party or whatever, sitting next to somebody, always ask, tell me about you, and you will never have a pause in your conversations. I was like, okay. So I just, I don't know, I'm fascinated by people, but it's easy because I've asked you a couple of questions, just like what you're about, enough for me to be curious, and I take it from there.

So how do you choose who's going to be on the show? Because that's kind of cool.

I had a lot of great friends that said yes, and a lot of artists that I talked to in the beginning, and I have a few that come back maybe quarterly or a couple times a year that people really are interested in hearing from. But it's cut now. I get— and I have a place on my website, margotanto.com, if somebody wants to recommend somebody. I have in my Instagram, I say I have like over 200 people saved that I'd love to talk to. But I get so many emails from agents and people. And I love— sometimes it's just like, what? What? You're obviously not paying attention. No, thank you.

Yeah.

Does not resonate. But for instance, I, I've gotten some filmmakers recently.

I know I listened to that episode that you just did recently that was, um, oh, I can't remember at the moment. It was on my notes and I can't find it. But I was like, how did she get them on the show?

The guy that did Hugo, that wrote the book. Yes. Yes. The woman, Annie Atkins, who did all the props and stuff for the Wes Anderson— several Wes Anderson movies. I was like, what? Yes, I don't know, people just come on. And I, I love that it enables my guests to be more diverse— color, male, female, non-binary. They might be swimmers, they might be painters, they might be movie— like, I'm just I'm so fascinated by what creativity means to people, and I feel like it shows up in so many different ways in all of us. That did it for me.

What does creativity mean to you?

I think it shows up in a couple of ways. I think it's feeling the call to do something that might not be super by the book. Like maybe you're an accountant, but you love to play the clarinet. Or I used to tell my friend who was a haircutter for years when I lived near her, she used to cut my hair. I'm like, so creative. Hello, you are sculpting on somebody every day, you know? And sometimes I feel like if you're sweeping up after the kids at school, like you're picking a pattern. You're— are you sweeping that way? Are you sweeping this way? Like, what are you thinking about? What are you listening to?

I just—

I feel like We all have it. How does it show up? How does it show up for you? And do you even care, or are you hiding it? Are you passionate about something you wish you could do? I love those stories of people who say, and it comes up over and over again, I went to school for this because my parents wanted me to be an X, Y, or Z because that's, you know, they came from the old country and they— I had to be at this, and now I'm creative, and now I— it was always a whisper to me. And I, I feel like too For somebody with chronic illness or somebody who has a bunch of kids or somebody who is a caregiver, like, it's a release too. It's so much, so often the place we find our— we can take a breath. When I really get in the zone of creating something, I— it's like a big release, you know? It's like a massage without anybody else there.

That is really interesting.

I love—

I believe that. I believe that so much that everyone is creative in some way, shape, or form. I feel like we were designed to be creative. I feel like this planet that we live on is an excellent example of how we are creative and everything is meant to be created in a way, like to be seen and to nurture. And creativity just adds to that. I'm curious, while you've been listening to everybody else's creative journeys? Like, what have you learned about yourself when it comes to, like, viewing yourself with creativity?

I think the overall overarching thing is just do it. Sometimes I'll say, if you have one tip, or we've talked about it along the way, it's like, just go after that thing that's calling to you. Just start the blah blah blah. Just send out the mailer. Just press go on the website, whatever it is, just do it. Say yes to your dreams. Say yes to yourself. Say yes to possibility.

Is it hard, do you think, for like a really creative person to take that leap if they've never taken that leap before?

Sure, it's scary. It's like, what's going to happen? What's going to happen on the other side of just saying yes? You know, who's going to be there? I might be judged. It might not work. Nobody might show up. You know, somebody, I remember hearing, you know, if you have 5 followers, you're influencing 5 people. 5 people have chosen to say they want to know more about what you're putting out into the world. You know, it is tricky, especially when you're, it feels like your baby. You've been building this thing or trying this thing. You know, I'm about to launch. It's been about for a while. I'm super about, because again, I gave myself finally a deadline, um, my licensing agency website. And, um, it's a huge deal for me, you know, it feels like to me the culmination of all the things. And I want to make sure everybody likes it, but you know, you, you don't always know until you do it because you're the only one judging it. Yeah.

Is the licensing like based on your creative awesomeness and your licensing allowing other people to use it? Is that what you mean? Or an agency where you're helping other people do that?

I'm helping other people. I have several wonderful artists that I am helping get their art out into the world in a way that I am acting as their mentor. So I'm working directly with them, not that they need it, but it's fun to kind of like— sometimes we stagnate, we like, how can I do this? I'd love my product on this. So it's, it's me kind of helping shape this beautiful team of artists. And then I know so much about kind of the industry. It's hopefully showing up as a, as somebody fairly refreshing for people who are looking for work or developing any number of things, because I already speak that language as well. So it's putting it all together.

So that's so cool. But it's interesting because that seems like that's like That is the culmination of everything you've kind of already been doing, and yet it feels like, I don't know if this is gonna work. Is it because it's in the forum, or is it because it's so open? It's not kind of like under the covers, if you will.

Yeah, it's my name on it, right? And 28 people are— their earnings are dependent on how I show up for them, you know. Um, not to mention doing right for the companies, but that's easier, you know. But I think it's just, what are people expecting? Which is silly because we put that on ourselves, right? What do you think people are expecting? Like, I don't know, they're expecting you to get the website open, Margo. That's what they're expecting.

Is it open? Can we press on the button?

Yes, by the time this goes live, it will be well open and I will have shown at the International Licensing Expo in London. Doing that in October. So yes, it's Tam Tao Studio, and it's— I'm very proud of it. And I'm very excited because I can do this until I can no longer lift a finger.

Wow.

I would be curious to ask you, since it's kind of new and it's got your name on it, like what things came up for you that surprised you in this process of putting this new out in the world that you're like, whoa, I didn't expect myself to experience that or think that or feel that?

Well, it was kind of interesting how it came to be. So I started teaching online in 2014. It's all tied together, so you never know where these things are going to go. I started teaching with this wonderful friend, Lilla Rogers, and we decided— she had already started her platform, Make Art That Sells, and I came to her and it was all about like, Lilla, you're showing— she was an agent for 30 years and she had the crème de la crème of artists. And I would always go to her booth first at the licensing show. And, and I, we would say, have this conversation of like, if you could just get your artists to think dimensionally and show things dimensionally, I think you could sell even more of this product. And she would be like, what do you mean? And so we developed this class together and now it's evergreen on her site. And so I, all along the way in my career, I've come across some such talented people. And I've thought about being an agent. As a matter of fact, way back in 2012, before we ever talked together, I remember calling her and saying, I'm thinking about— I was in between jobs and I said, I'm thinking about being an agent and I think you're my only competition.

I love that, calling your competition and admitting, I don't know.

And she was so gracious and she said, you know, it's a big pool, come on in, it's a big pie, but there's a lot of paperwork. And I remember thinking like, Oh, I don't know about that. And then I quickly, interestingly, got a, got a job that I, that was great. So I didn't do that. And I felt like I had a lot of contacts, but I wasn't busy nurturing those who are the book publishers, who are the buyers at Anthropologie, who I knew some, but you know, who are the people I don't know that I would need to know. And, you know, without going into all the detail, I started a membership after the podcast was going, after I didn't have this job anymore, which I love because I can poured into a lot of artists there. But a year ago almost, she announced that she was closing her agency. And I was like, what? Like, that's like Sears closing. You never expect it. And I picked up the phone, which— what, we don't do that anymore. I picked up the phone firstly to make sure she was okay. And that day, that morning, and because I thought I had this— talk about following your gut— I was like, Like, what does this mean? You know, I feel like the universe is saying, have a conversation. And she said, I don't have anybody to take it over. My agent, my main agent has— is retiring. Are you interested? And so what I ended up doing in the most beautiful way was inheriting her agency. In my mind, it was the best one. And so I have the inner workings of that and some of her artists and some of my own because I don't, again, want to copy somebody else. But it was just you all. Like, sometimes all the things add up and they're just meant to be. You just have to listen and beautiful things just come to be.

That is such an awesome story, Margo. I feel like there's so much in there. Just in that alone, in the power of connection, and the power of community, and the power of vulnerability. Like, there's so many things in that story alone that's like, whoa. Time and patience. Like, there's so much there. That's such a cool thing to hear, and her to feel comfortable with you being like, yeah.

A huge honor for me. Yeah.

That is amazing. We've kind of been like, it's funny how this conversation, again, how this conversation is kind of making its own little pathway for those of us listening, which is like, you never know where you're going to go and how these things connect, right? How they actually will work in your favor. I think in a world where we often are told that you have to like changing your mind or shifting or following your gut in some way, shape, or form, especially when I think when it comes to creativity and business, it's like, oh no, you can't do it that way. Don't do it that way. Cause it's not the, like the perfect way of getting it. There's this like pathway you're supposed to be going this one way that they say is the only way that you can get to this destination.

Are your funnels set up? Have you taken—

Right, right. And then you're like, and then sometimes, and a lot of times I think it's more than sometimes you don't do it the cookie-cutter way and it still works.

Yes, and it still works and it's not cookie-cutter. How refreshing, you know? Yeah, yeah, because at the end of the day, I'm not the only agency out there, and I have many friends with agencies because I, as an art director, have used them over and over and over again. So I am honored to be next to them. And I certainly don't want to show up like they are because they're already showing up that way. So how do I honor the artists that I'm representing, the space, and the potential? You know, it's something I'm not just doing for myself. Yeah.

When you say you don't want to— like, you don't want to look like or be like other people, how do you think you'll maintain that value of being like, I'm going to be uniquely me. And I say this with all of the context and only because I know so many creative entrepreneurs, especially in the AI. I'm bringing this up because it's just gonna be relevant. How do you think that is going to look in the scape and the scope of the world when it comes to being unique in this space with—

We will be continually challenged. There's, It's not on the tip of my tongue, the company, but there's a new company, new AI company, newish, where you put all your brand assets in there and say, make me a marketing plan visually and everything. And they do. I think it's important to not turn a blind eye, but to educate ourselves. Don't say it's horrible. Say, how's it here? And what, how do I want to educate myself, as I said? And how do I want to speak about this? I'm maybe more worried for the environment than I am even for our jobs, although equally so. But there are still— my son is 17 and he could write, he could way lean into AI, especially as he's writing papers and applying to colleges and stuff. And he's like, I will not, Mom, I will not. I don't like I don't like what it does to the environment. I was like, right on. I think it's important to stay educated and there's new things every day. So there's how can you use it for good? How can you understand how it cannot be good? I don't know if you've heard of the AI influencer that has 165,000 followers now and she's fake.

I've seen people talking about the influencer. I think I've seen other, like, coaches talk about this influencer that's an AI influencer, and I haven't gone to look for it because in, in my bones, I'm like, I have no desire to watch a fake person.

Somebody sent me a screenshot of it, and I'm like, well, that's enough. When I look at that screenshot and I look at the pictures, I can tell it's AI, but how long will it be before I can't? It's just important to talk about it. I have a feature on my podcast every couple weeks where I get on with my friend Abby, Updates with Abby, and we talk about, um, relevant things in the news. And AI's in there, and whatever, you know, fun or concerning or interesting thing comes up, just to kind of keep ourselves and other people aware. But I think, you know, at some point cars came along and everybody with a horse was like, what do I What the heck?

Everybody with the horse was like, what the heck? I don't know, I wasn't there. I just love that illustration. It's so real.

I mean, there's all those things, you know, it's like, what am I going to do with Photoshop? What, that's going to take away from my hand drawing? And, you know, we adapt and we, we make it work and I'm actually considering having somebody in the agency, an artist-wise, who works with a little bit of AI for two reasons. To have somebody that's super mindful about it and doing it with her own creativity in a very creative way. And B, to— for all those people looking for it to say, well, this is possible, let me— but let me show you what else is possible, because you can't You can only be as creative as your prompts, you know? And I was very buoyed by the fact that the last big licensing show in Las Vegas last May, some big players there said the clients they were talking to were like, no, we're not interested in using AI for these ads and these products and things. Certainly it's showing up in certain places, but you know, I think we're gonna see some peaks in some areas Some areas will keep using it. Some maybe not so much.

Yeah. I think creativity has always been like technology, tech, tech. I can't think of the word. It's probably not a word. That's why I can't say it. It's, um, it has been technologized. It's totally not a word, Nikita Williams, but, um, I think creativity in general has been in some ways with technology has constantly been tapped at, redefined, re-everything. And yet we still have paper, yet we still have some aspects of that very tangible realness that we all like really want to have, because as great as technology is going to be and it's helpful in some ways, and obviously it's harmful in others, it has its limits even when it thinks it doesn't have its limits. And it's the fact that it's not human, you know, it's like, it's not human. And I do think to your point, it's important to like, just not ignore it. It's just like, you know, a photographer who was like, I'm only a film photographer and ignore that there's DSLR now. And now, you know, there's mirrorless cameras and all these things, but it didn't take away that the film— I still love me a good film photo. I love a good film everything. Right. So I do think it's just about, to your point, having the space for both, because it doesn't have to be this or it could be this and.

I think you'll find your people where your people are, you know. It's interesting too to have a teenager because, you know, discs, records, albums, to cassettes, to CDs, to, you know, just on the internet. He and his friends are all collecting cassettes. He's like, Mom, the sound quality.

Yeah.

Cassettes.

Not vinyl, cassettes.

A vintage Walkman.

Oh my gosh.

Annie will not wear new clothes. It's all vintage, but vintage was—

I love it.

So it's so interesting. We don't know what people are going to be interested or influenced by.

So true.

Or do they want to hold on to it for some reason? Or do they take that and then creatively digitize that in a whole new way? Modern. I don't know.

That's so interesting. Yeah. I want to switch gears real quick as we kind of come into this towards the end, but your experience, the experiences of others that you've heard in the creative space, what has really resonated with you when you hear people who are managing life, lifing, whether that's, you know, chronic health limiting circumstances, you know, we also can't forget, you know, the idea, you know, we have the narrative, the starving artist life. What has been some, a big thing that has really resonated with you as a business owner, as a mentor to other creatives that you carry and you continue to like champion?

I am humbled by, impressed by, empowered by the fact that I'm reminded of our impermanence, I guess, one word, one way to say it, or the, like, you just don't know, right? You just don't know. You, you can go along in a certain way thinking your health is fine, thinking you're gonna have your parents until they're old, thinking you're gonna have the same job forever because your boss loves you, and all of those things can change in an instant. And I think it's seeing, realizing that and seeing what people do around that. And I don't mean they have to run a marathon with one leg or anything like that. It's just like what speaks to each person personally and how are they managing it? Because the older we get, it's like, oh my gosh, that person that was like the top athlete and has always achieved, achieved, achieved is now saying, I, you know, I have these allergies, or I, my hip, I can't do it the way I used to. And, and you, like, their identity needs to change around that or needs to evolve. And, um, or art-wise or job-wise or grief or whatever, whatever comes our way. And I think it's, I think it's being adaptable. Nikita Williams, you, for example, like, I love that you started this. One of the reasons you started this podcast was to have an outlet for yourself, have a show other people what they could do. It's just realizing the humanness of us all and not trying to look like a fake influencer, but look like— I mean, it's the true stories that interest me the most of anybody. And I think the vulnerability around that is the most refreshing thing.

Yeah, such a good point. I think I've learned the same thing.

We all—

what's on the surface is literally just the surface. There's so much underneath it all, right?

Well, that's deep.

Yes, exactly, exactly. Well, if someone's listening to this and they're like, Margot, you sound cool. I love what you're putting down. I can't wait to hear about your agency and all of that jazz. How can they connect with you?

And where can they find you? Oh, thanks. Well, my podcast is Windowsill Chats, so all the places you can listen to a podcast, Windowsill Chats. And it's, uh, about the creative twisty-turny paths we're all on. And I have a membership for— I wanted a membership that had a low barrier of entry. You didn't have to take a certain class, you didn't have to have certain abilities, you just wanted to hang out with maybe like-minded cool people. So there's that. It's called The Foundry. And all of that, what I— the podcast, The Foundry, various and sundry other things are on my website called margotantau.com. T-A-N-T-A-U, Margot, M-A-R-G-O. And then the studio, the agency is called Tantau, which is my last name, tantaustudio.com. I'm all over the Instagram. Windusill Chats has an Instagram, Tantau Studio has an Instagram, and Tanto has an Instagram, which all connect to each other. And I'm supposed to be learning TikTok because I'm taking a class from a very cool—

she's supposed to be— I love how you're like, I'm supposed to, but I'm not there yet.

One thing at a time.

TikTok is probably the easiest thing, but I feel like I've kind of switched into the Instagram world.

I took the class. I really like this gal, Kenya, who teaches it, and I thought I could use it for Reels instead of— do you like it?

Do you like TikTok? I do. I do like TikTok. It feels less— not that Instagram is stuffy because it's really not, but it's very specific the way you have to show up, quote unquote, for things to actually work the way you want it to work. And TikTok isn't like that. So that's what I like about it so far, but that's a whole episode that I'll have to have about just talking about the two of those spaces. Before we go, I've been asking this question to everyone before they leave, which is related to your business specifically. What's one thing that you thought was true when you started your business or many businesses that you no longer believe? It's true.

It has to be perfect to start. As a matter of fact, I think the opposite is true. The only way you're really going to know what people want is to get the gritty side out there and just do it. It really doesn't have to be perfect because you're going to want to change it and evolve with it anyway. I'm forever inspired by people who just put themselves out there. And if you're wanting to try something, I highly encourage you to find a way to do so.

I love that.

You never know what will happen.

It's a good point. Well, thank you again, Margot, for your time and sharing a little bit of it with me and with the rest of us. Thank you so much.

Oh, I wish we could hang out way more often, Nikita.

Thanks for— We have to figure out how we make this happen. Yes, I agree.

I agree.

All right, love, I will see you soon, and thank you again.

Thank you for having me. You're the best, and I super appreciate you.

That's a wrap for this episode of Business with Chronic Illness. If you would like to start and grow an online coaching business with me, head to the show notes to click a link to book a sales call and learn how to make money with chronic illness. You can also check out our website at www.craftedtothrive.com for this episode's show notes and join our email list to get exclusive content where I coach you on how to chronically grow a profitable business while living with chronic illness. Until next time, remember, yes, you are crafted to thrive.