Is Eco-Friendly Gardening the Answer to Thriving with Chronic Illness with Denise Cusak

within the aromatherapy and herbalism communities and holistic wellness, often people who are practitioners or who work in this field don't wanna talk about it if they have personal health issues because then they feel like they're not, see, I'm not a great herbalist if I haven't completely cured this really rare genetic thing that I have. And I think that what my goal is, is that, you know, I think we should talk about it Welcome to Crafted to Thrive, the globally ranked podcast for entrepreneurs living with chronic illness.

I'm your host, Nikita Williams, and after being diagnosed with multiple chronic illnesses myself, I figured out the surprisingly simple missing links to growing a profitable business without compromising my health. Since then, I've helped dozens of women just like you learn how to do the same. If you're ready to own your story and create a thriving business that aligns with your health and well-being, you're in the right place. Together, we're shifting the narrative of what's possible for entrepreneurs with chronic illness. This is Crafted to Thrive.

I am so excited to have Denise on and tell us a little bit about herself. Let me know and let the audience know, like, where you're from, what you do, and we'll hop right into our conversation.

Oh, sure.

I'm really glad to be here. My name is Denise Cusack. I live in Wisconsin, south central Wisconsin, and I'm a herbalist, aromatherapist, and permaculture designer. And I also grow medicinal herbs here at our farm, which is also United Plant Savers Botanical Sanctuary, which is a mouthful, but it says what we do.

That is awesome. I am learning that Farming is such like plants and planting is such an important thing in our lives that we don't think about too much until we don't have access to things. And I think during the pandemic, that was something I learned was really learning, man, it's nice when you can just go into your yard and grab some basil and some mint versus going to the store. Right. And we were introduced by one of my dear friends, Renee Hughes, who is an aromatherapist and an amazing woman and coach and all the things, good friend of me. And she's the one who introduced me in the first place to essential oils in the way that I use it now. So like, I use essential oils to help me with, um, managing my mood and my health with chronic illness. And you just got done sharing a bit about just sharing what you do. Can you tell us more about what it is, like define some of these terms? Because some of us may not even know what these words mean as far as what it is that you do.

Yes. Well, permaculture is probably the word that people are the least familiar with. And with that, it's just, you know, there, there are two kind of parts of it. On one side, it's a method of growing that is a little bit more than organic. If you say you're growing organic, often you're still growing maybe in rows, you're still using fertilizers or pesticides, but you're using organic. With permaculture, it's the original word is based off of permanent agriculture. And what it means is that we're planting in a way that more closely mimics nature. And we're planting things so that plants have more, I think, better ecosystem to grow in. And we're also growing in a way that's more sustainable and what I like to call regenerative. Because, you know, with sustainability, we want things to maintain the status quo and not get worse. But with regenerative agriculture, what we're looking at is actually making things better so that the future will have these plants. You know, a lot of things are at risk. A lot of things are becoming extinct and we're having a lot of issues with global like fires and floods and hurricanes. And so a lot of these plants, if we can grow them ourselves, we're not only keeping them from being shipped around the world, you know, which is, you know, nice if we're trying to get something, especially if we wanna save money, we wanna be more local. We wanna create our own local food chain or supply chain for herbs and aromatherapy. And then we also are creating systems like I, um, build my soil. We support pollinators. And so our farm is really rich with pollinators and birds and wildlife and all of these things. So we're creating habitats and ecosystems that not only are making my plants grow really well and requiring less water, less fertilizer, I don't need to do all of these additional things, but it's also creating an ecosystem and a habitat that's encouraging our wildlife and our ecosystem basically to be more regenerative. And so we grow a lot of things here, but As the topic of this, what we're talking about here today, a lot of us have chronic health issues, which I do as well. And for me, permaculture means that I'm creating things that have— it's like systems design. You're designing an ecosystem. So part of it is that growing and the process, what we're doing and the methods that we're using. And part of it is that philosophy of systems design in which we're designing something to work for us. And for me, being someone who has, you know, joint issues and, you know, chronic pain issues, for me, permaculture allows me to create things that I don't have to do a lot of work in. So while people might go to my website and go, oh my gosh, you grow 500 things, how in the world can you do that when you have, you know, all of these other health issues? And it really is that we are designing systems that allow me to work less while my plants still grow. That makes sense.

Wow. Yeah, that's powerful. I wish we could do some kind of permaculture taking care of pets on a whole nother, another level. But I hear what you're saying is basically that this foundation of the permaculture and how it's been a part of your life, how you've built it to be a part of your life, has enabled you to thrive even though you're dealing with the different health challenges that you're dealing with.

Exactly. And that's what I like about permaculture, both in philosophy and in practice, is that it's really about looking at what our needs are, assessing ourselves and our family needs and who we are and what we're doing, and then creating a system that works for us so that it reduces our inputs and labor and gives us more. You know, so that things are better. We have more abundance, I think. And you can do it even— I love the concept and philosophy of permaculture even in life, you know, in our goals, my volunteering, you know, I use a lot of that permaculture processes and like the, the systems design to kind of organize how we can utilize our time better too, to be able to still do the things we love while also taking care of ourselves.

Wow. So that was a lot, y'all. We like went right in there real quick. We went super in. I just realized, I'm like, we just went right on in. Denise, tell us a little bit about you. Like, how did this become a part of your life? Has this always been a part of your life? How has, you know, what are some chronic illnesses that you live with and how has this path that you've been on really been shaped by, by those things?

Yeah, and I would say everything is. I have— we kind of have a few-fold path here. My own is that I have rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, Sjögren's, which is why you'll see me take 50 sips of water while we're here. My mouth is always dry. And I also have chronic back issues that include— and some of that's from rheumatoid arthritis where I have, you know, disc problems and joint problems. And all of that is usually why people go, oh my gosh, You're crazy. Why are you growing so, you know, 2 acres of things? But I also have a child who has chronic health issues, and it started really young where we didn't know what was happening. I mean, we've been to Mayo Clinic, you know, some, you know, they say it takes you so many years before you're diagnosed. That's our experience as a family for several of us. And, you know, it takes years. And so we were always trying to find, you know, food that my child could eat and didn't react to, find products. You know, herbal health became something that was really important to me. And that's how I got into aromatherapy and herbalism in the first place, was looking as a person who needed help myself and having a child who we're trying to figure out how in the world we can get out the door or, you know, live our life without all of this chaos, because it was really severe for so long, for so many years. And she's 20 years old now, but we still, like, we live our life pretty much around her needs because it is still pretty significant. And of course we all, you know, we have a lovely, you know, our genetics here. I mean, that we have a lot of people with chronic health issues in our family. But for me, you know, getting into herbalism and aromatherapy both was a way for me to find tools that I could use and grow my own, my own products. You know, I also found when my, when my kids were younger that a lot of the things that we would purchase, they were still reacting to. To because there are fillers or there are other ingredients or there's cross-contamination. And any of us who have allergies know sometimes even doing it on the same table could be enough to give some reaction. And I found that growing my own meant I knew exactly what was in it, you know? And the benefit of that then grew where I was like, oh wow, my kids now know what these plants are. They know where this comes from. They know how to make these things and As we got more into it, of course, then I wanted to grow more plants and try more things. And other people always, and you know this from being in the Spoonie community, that people are like, oh my gosh, something worked for you. What is it? Will it work for us too? Yeah. And a lot of my community was like, oh my gosh, what are you doing that's working? And I was like, oh, well, let's try, let's figure this out. And that's how I got into being more of a clinical herbalist and clinical aromatherapist and working with people and families who had a lot of the same health challenges that we have. And, you know, from there it is a long jump, um, into growing 2 acres. But what I found was that so many of us need so many of these plants and so many of these plants are really helpful and can really make a huge impact on our health and wellness. And then also our own food. You know, being able to grow some of our own foods really made a big difference too, because there were a lot of ingredients and, you know, additives and food colorings that we couldn't have. And, you know, it really limits you when you have someone who can eat— at one point, we, you know, eating only 5 foods.

Yeah, no, I know.

You know, that dictates everything. Yeah. Yeah. And so I was like, wow, if we can grow these things ourselves, we even found like not even being able to eat potatoes if they'd been sprayed with that inhibitor that keeps sprouting. So growing our own potatoes even was something that we did. And for me, one of the big things was we started experimenting. We lived in a suburban house, so we had a smaller plot of land. And then I was like, well, maybe we should see if we can grow more and share, have more to share with other people. But it was more of an experiment to see, can I physically do this? And I'm proud of myself for doing it that way because I'm not that kind of— I'm usually like 120%, let's go. But we went and we bartered land with a friend's farm and she let us grow there. And I would like grow a little bit more and grow a little bit more. And can I do this myself? Because I knew that I would— I have family to help, but I also have, you know, other family members who have chronic health issues who are sun sensitive and heat sensitive, so can't be out there all the time. Time with me and bug allergies and things. So with that, we grew slowly and I realized, you know, I can do this all myself if I do it this way. And that's where I started getting more interested in permaculture and got my permaculture design certificate so that I could do this. We moved into this place in 2018 with 2 acres, knowing that we'd been through that test. And part of that test was me growing, you know, for the food pantry as well so that we knew, can I grow this much? Can I grow— we even grew flowers for the food pantry one summer and did about 600 bouquets. But it was just like, can we do all of this without help? And we could. And so that's where we, you know, we moved here and I've been slowly expanding the gardens and things, but growing them in a way that it doesn't require me to be weeding out there 40 hours a week. You know, I know a lot of people have gardens and they do, but I, you know, there's no way I could do that. Yeah.

Yeah, and especially with 2 acres of land.

Oh yeah, yeah.

Wow.

And that's why I like permaculture too, because, you know, it's about those layers. And if you have layers at the bottom that help smother the weeds and retain the water and all of that, then, you know, and protect your soil and also feed back into your soil, you know, I don't have that much work to do, so, or as much work to do. So for me, it was really important to be able to do that, and I've expanded now. Yeah, a lot, you know. I grow a lot. And, you know, yeah, I have hurt myself. I sometimes, you know, it's like growing, you know, when planting season in the spring, I'm always like, I'm wearing my back brace, I'm wearing my knee pads, I'm wearing my, you know, I'm always like, I feel like I'm strapped up, you know, with all of my things to help me. But, you know, it's important, you know, and that's, I think, important to tell people too. I've had people go, oh my gosh, how do you do it? Well, I have a back brace on, I have knee pads on, I make my beds, you know, shallow so I can do it on my knees. If they're too wide, I'd have to walk in there and bend over. I don't do that. And, you know, a lot of that is I love being outside and I love plants, and having lupus means I'm also sensitive. So I have a giant hat, you know, that I wear. We have certain things planted in shady areas. I only go out during certain times of the day, but it works. And, you know, finding things that work for us has been I think it's been a really good journey for me because it makes me feel like, look at how much I can still accomplish without overdoing it or hurting myself.

Yeah, I mean, just one— I'm— everyone knows because I talk about this, I try to be a green thumb. I'm really not. My grandfather was the green thumb. He was the man that when we would be walking, he would tell me the plants and the trees. And I so to this day regret that I didn't actually like store that information in my brain somewhere. But I have found, especially living with chronic illness and running my own business, the importance of being connected to the earth itself, like just being grounded and touching, like my feet touching the ground. I personally love being by water. So that energy of that energetics, but also planting, there's water and all of these different kind of things that we all our body needs this dirt, it needs the water, it needs the air, the oxygen, the carbon— it needs all of these things. So I'd imagine my question for you is like, not only has this been like from a, you know, what we put in our food, like what we put in our mouth, what we eat, but how has having this kind of relationship, you know, connection to the planet and the plants and things been therapeutic to you as a chronic illness warrior?

And that's a great question. I volunteered with the Veterans Resiliency Holistic Clinic and Herbalists Without Borders for many years. And so I, during that time, I was doing a lot of work within trauma and trauma systems and finding so many studies and so much data about how working outside, being in the garden, having beauty around you, having your hands in the soil can have such a huge impact on your mental health. And I have found that to be so true. And I think, you know, we know that all the soil microbiome and all of those, you know, things that we get just from the soil, like ending up being supporting our gut health, for example, and our gut health impacts our mental health. And that's from my science perspective. But on the like, like personal kind of touchy-feely side, I also think that Being outside on the ground and being surrounded by beauty and being able to walk around and do things and feel the sun on your skin and see the butterflies and all of that, I think, makes us feel more connected to the Earth, makes us feel more engaged with what's happening around us. I feel like it impacts that feeling of the seasons and seeing and feeling and smelling the seasons change. And I know, you know, certain times of year, I live where it's really cold in the winter. So there are months where, you know, I'm not in the garden, but still just having that connection to being outside more. I find myself wandering and still looking at plants and what trees are, you know, here. And I think we're kind of losing some of that. And I've, you know, I lived in a city for many years and I know that I missed that so deeply. And I think a lot of people are missing that and just having just some sort of outlet. Of being able to connect. Even if you don't grow yourself, even if you have pots of something on your deck, I think you get that feeling of caretaking. And it's interesting, you say you don't have a green thumb, and that's why I like permaculture too, because if we're allowing things to grow like they would naturally grow in the wild and we're encouraging things to grow that way, I don't have to go out and take care of the wild plants in my yard. They just kind of do it. Dandelions. You never have to like, you know, you're like, oh wait, I have a million dandelions. They grow. You don't water them. You don't do anything. They're still there. And I think a lot of plants, if they're in the right place, that's what they want to do. They want to grow. They want to flower. They want to fruit. And that's why I think creating natural systems like that is beneficial because you don't have to think, oh, I don't have a green thumb. Well, maybe it just wasn't the right plant for you, you know, or That place.

Tiffany's kind of transformed me into being a plant person. I intentionally avoid plants. I intentionally try to like, I like buy them and then they die. And I feel so like I did something wrong to this plant. Like legit, I'm like, I killed this plant. I cannot believe it. It has a huge effect on me. But I love seeing, like, I love being around a garden and like like just being in that space and seeing it, I just feel like you're right, Denise. I probably just haven't found the right plant that needs to be in the pot that will, you know, do its thing. And I'm doing its thing and we're nice to each other. Yeah. I think something that you said that I'm curious about because being— I mean, this is not just like a way of living. This is also integrating into the way you make a living as well. Right. And so having a business like this is like when we first met, I was like, man, she has— Denise has turned like plants and all the things to connection of the planet and the earth and like feeding yourself and nourishing yourself, not just in a physical sense, but also in a financial sense and a mental, psychological sense. You've kind of made a whole ecosystem of this being the, like the surrounding, like it's the— I don't even know what word I'm trying to think of. The, it's the fundamental, it feels like for you where everything has kind of sprouted and grown to be, you know, more corny with my plant analogies, but how has the learning about the plants and the planet helped you create systems to have a business to run and also, you know, taking care of your, your family, your daughter who has chronic, how has, what has been some lessons that nature has taught you that you would not have maybe have come to appreciate had this not been such a huge part of your life?

That's a really good question. I feel like when we lived more in the city, we were a suburban house, you know, we were— we always felt kind of that pressure of, oh no, you have to be doing all these things. You have to go out, you have to go places, you have to do something else. And I feel like being more connected to the plants and the change of seasons, it's allowed us to actually slow down, which I think is really good for us, you know, for people to do, which can be really hard having a business, having a life, you know, doing things like keeping your house up and all of that is a lot. And for us, we also homeschooled because my daughter couldn't go to school because of her health issues. And so I feel like everything in our life kind of led to us finding a way to actually be happy with what we have, where we are. And I mean, it's a hard lesson to learn, I think, sometimes. And sometimes, you know, we always are looking to the other side. Oh, look at their business. Oh, look at their, you know, home, or look at all these things that they're doing. And I think COVID brought everybody to where we are, which is, you know, we're always careful in the winter during cold and flu season. And we're not going into busy, crowded spots, you know, and we're staying home and trying to find ways to enjoy ourselves as a family and make our own food and feel satisfied being at home. And everybody was there with us for a while. And it was like, this is amazing. Everyone gets it now, you know, but for us as a family, I think that was really, you know, that's a conscious thing that we do. And my kids are still, you know, they're not kids anymore. They're 18 and 20. We still like live our life like that. I feel like it's with intention and being mindful of the seasons and focusing on relationships that we have with people more than we have on, you know, what stuff we have. And I think that that's important as a business owner too, because it can be really hard, I think, to go, I want to do everything, you know, or easy, I guess, in some ways. I want to do everything, it's not enough. And trying to be focused and and I keep using the word intentional, but it really is mindful, being mindful of kind of what it is that our goals are and trying to stay like on our course of what our intentions are and not get completely sidetracked with trying to compare ourselves to other people, which is I think what people do a lot. I know I do. It's hard, but it allows us to take that time and really slow down and be mindful of what we choose to do with our time and our efforts. And, you know, being a business owner, I think that's really good because, you know, we want to have a clear focus. We want to have a direct line of what our goals are and where we want to go and not kind of be like, oh wait, and we should do this and do this, because that's often what waters us down and dilutes our message as well. So I, I think that it's that grand lesson is just being a part of the seasons and nature and connecting on that deeper level so that we can be more mindful and intentional in what we do.

Such a good point, Denise. I definitely agree with you. I think one of the things that plants have taught me mostly, especially with essential oils, with my work and research in essential oils, and I mean, the, the essence of, of all of these plants and their lifeblood, if you will, of the essence you know, essential oils is that every single one is different. Like, the constituents or the things that are inside of— even in the same plant in a different place, in a different anywhere— is so uniquely different. The amount of what is in— I'm getting geeky on y'all, just hold on a minute— the, the different levels of components that are in one batch of like a sweet orange versus another batch is completely different. But what I always I just like came back to and something I've learned, and it's kind of something to what you're saying in my business is coming to appreciate, especially living with chronic illness, is that that's okay. And they're still beautiful in there. And then what they do, they still create these beautiful effects for our body and for the environment and all these different kinds of things. It just doesn't look like this identical experience. And I think as business owners and especially as chronic illness warriors, We unfortunately, social media puts us in this place that we are all like this cookie cutter experience and this is how it works, but that's not reality. Right. And to your point, Denise, you're, you know, you're sharing like this has become a part of your intention, your intention of how you live, slowing down and being— what I heard without you saying was contentment in what you have and what is coming or becoming. What has been some challenges in that experience for you? Like, what has been some fears along with, you know, incorporating these, these tools that you have as well as in your life?

Well, you know, with COVID it was nice to have everybody on lockdown like we were, but, you know, the thing is now we're still locked down, you know, in many ways because of immunosuppressant medications in our home and things like that. And The fear in some of that is like, you know, are we, you know, we're, we feel isolated. And so this business and our life and our choices that we're making is where we are reaching out and communicating with people and developing relationships and wanting to actually, because, you know, we don't want to all just live in a bubble and never, you know, explore humanity and other people and other places, but it can feel isolating as well. And I think that's the nice thing about nature is because it doesn't really care. You know, it's just there. It's always, you know, it just keeps going. It keeps doing its thing whether I water it or not. It still keeps going whether I weed it or not, you know, any of that. And that's what plants want to do. They, they live where they are until, you know, they're done. And, and that is both the challenge and the gift, I guess, in some ways with being intentional in the life and feeling, you know, and I'm sure a lot of us, you know, with chronic illness or immune suppression and things like that, you know, you feel like you don't want to miss out on anything either. In being, you know, so it's a balance to know that what you're doing is enough and being happy and content with that. Like you said, I think content is a good word. And also not— and, you know, understanding that, yeah, sometimes we're like, man, you know, I'm disappointed. I wish I could do this thing, but you know that you can't. And it's hard. But I think— and I think that's why I'm so happy that I have really close relationships with my family. We're all, you know, we're all very close. And I guess that's the benefit not only of homeschooling but then of what, years of lockdown together, right? Is that connection together as a family. But it is a challenge because with business too, you know, a lot of that is getting out there. And really, you know, a lot of times, you know what my history and background was, a lot of times it's like, get out there and go places, go tell people, go share your— what you're doing, share your work. And it's kind of a different game if we're doing it in a more safe way where we're mostly communicating online. And so I think that that can feel alienating, but also nice. I'm an introvert, so I guess I'm lucky in that. I'm sure an extrovert is like, let me out. But it's still a challenge, I think.

Yeah.

I think for, especially for me personally, I have found I'm an extrovert. Sometimes I'm an omnivert, so I'm an in-between extrovert and introvert. The pandemic definitely was a challenge, but because of living with chronic illness, I've had multiple times where I couldn't go out and I wasn't out doing all of these things. And so, like, I had my own personal pandemic, right? So the things that I've learned is to find and seek community within the limits that I have. And at this point, I don't even frame them as limits. I frame them as opportunities a lot of the times of Being like, okay, this is a whole different world that maybe my competitors, if you call them that, are not really grasping and tapping into because they are out and meeting all these people and da da da da da. And I make it very intentional to like connect with people and it's different. I think I like to tell people like it can feel limiting at times, but it's to me, it's just different because Everybody's different, right? Everything— situations are different. And so what are some things that you have found that doing this work that you do as, you know, a clinical nutrition herbalist, like all these things that you do, how are you different? How, how has your differences made it a leveraging thing for the people that you work or the communities you're a part of?

You know, I think so many of us have family members with chronic illness or do ourselves. And within the holistic, and I don't know if you've noticed this, but within the aromatherapy and herbalism communities and holistic wellness, often people who are practitioners or who work in this field don't wanna talk about it if they have personal health issues. Yeah. Because then they feel like they're not, so I'm not a, a great herbalist if I haven't completely cured this really rare, yeah. You know, genetic thing that I have. And I think that what my goal is, is that I think we should talk about it. And we should— because a lot of us are like, gosh, how— people will say to me, how do you even do that? Well, yeah, I have— I do all these things to make sure that it can work for me. And I do it in short spurts. I know I can't go out all day and work 8 hours in the garden. I can't do the same for certain types of work we do with our business either. And I am conscious of how long can I do this? And I schedule my work and my days in ways that I can do it. But by talking about it and being open about it, I think it allows other people like us to see that it's actually possible and that it's something that we can all do. You know, and I know you and I talked about this a little when we were just chatting before about, you know, we deserve to be able to be in like farming and gardening and growing spaces and I haven't seen any accessibility in a lot of these spaces because I think it's something that is so outside the scope of what people are talking about. And for me, being able to talk about it and say, hey, this is what works for us, you know, and we're so all so unique and individual that maybe there's no one size fits all. But I think having the conversation about what does work for us can help us support each other better. See other ways, brainstorm solutions that work for what we need individually and as families. And I think it's important for us to all, like, you know, we have these things that we need to do, like preserve our, you know, habitats and save pollinators. And they're, they're like our— I always joke that the pollinators have chronic issues like we do. Yeah, I know. But, you know, they're like a part of our community here, and we're trying to create these ecosystems where they're like supported and healthy and they have what they need and they don't have to run all over the place to get it. And that's what we need to do for ourselves too, I think is. And so that's where I think I have a unique perspective in bringing that herbalism and aromatherapy and the permaculture design together. And what I love about the permaculture principles is that I can bring it to systems design on accessibility and creating what works for individuals. That's what it's supposed to be. It's just a lot of people don't use it like that. I think a lot of people use it for, I'm going to plan my garden, or I'm going to plan rainwater collection. And it can be that, but it also can be, what do we need in our daily life and how can we create something that works for us? And so that's what I think all of us— I think all of us in this community have unique perspectives and experiences that can add to the conversation of all businesses and industries. And by talking about it more, I think that we create a conversation that, well, we're not— we don't need to hide it in order to protect ourselves from, you know, whatever it is that's going to happen. I know sometimes it's judgment. No, I mean, you know, in natural health, it's normally judgment.

Like, let's be real, like, that's like pretty— like, that's 99.9% of the thing. It's like the judgment or our own fear of what that judgment will be. Because of our own conditioning and thoughts and mindset around someone knowing that, hey, I'm still figuring this out too. Like, you know? Yeah, right.

Yeah, exactly. And if we don't talk about it, I think, I think that by having these conversations and talking about it more, it makes us more visible to other people and it makes people feel that they maybe have a community. Like you said, that's what we're looking— we're building communities and we're looking for other ways to have a community. And I feel like that's one of those ways for us to do this right now. We have this amazing— I mean, we're so lucky that we have things like Zoom and online things. Can you imagine, you know, 50 years ago people literally lived in their room and never left and that was it? And we have so many more opportunities. So I feel like we can utilize this technology and these connections that we have in order to make things more a part of our normal everyday conversation.

Yeah.

So I want to talk to you a little bit about accessibility and like How does one person decide how— if they're like Nikita Williams, Denise Williams, we want to— I want to start a little garden. But like, one, if they're like me and you, I'm very— I'm high— like, as much as I love the beach, the beach sun doesn't like me. I will still suffer through it. That's how much I love the beach. But like, how do you decide, or how— what things do you need to know in order to start creating? If you are like, I'm going to start a garden, I'm going to, you know, find ways to make this work for me, but I have no idea where to start other than going to Home Depot and buying a potted plant, what would you tell people to start with?

Well, I think with houseplants, the reason why a lot of people aren't successful is because the houseplants we do get at Home Depot are often actually meant for somewhere that's more tropical and has a completely different climate than where we live. And I think if we aren't using them and, you know, we're not interacting with the plants, it's so easy to forget that they're there and not pay any attention to them, which is when I think they're like, oh wait, water, soil. I need all these things, you know. And with herbs, what I love about herbs is there's culinary herbs and medicinal herbs and they overlap. And even growing a few pots of herbs, just even basil and going out and picking your own fresh basil to put over your pizza, you know, I think that you are building something, even if it's just that one plant where you are seeing how does it grow and what does it need. And I mean, how, if you pick all of this, how long does it take to refresh? You know, when can I do it again and how much can I get from this? And there are a lot of plants like that that do really well. Like in a lot of our potted herbs are usually actually Mediterranean. That's what, you know, rosemary and lavender and things like that. They grow really well when it's hot and dry, which is great because if they're on your deck in a pot and you forget to water them, You've mimicked their natural habitat. Look at that. Growing perennials is another way where I always tell people, if you're just starting, if you grow annuals, what an annual is, is you have to replant a new one every year. So they only are there for one year, whereas perennials are things that keep coming back year after year. And what that means is you don't have to keep doing all that work. You plant it once and it keeps coming back. Lemon balm is one. You can use it in tea. It's beautiful. Pollinators love it. You don't really have to fuss with it or mess with it, and you can use it for tea or in food. Lemon balm pesto even is really good. Iced tea, it's good. And it comes back every single year, year after year, you know, and you don't have to do any more work. And that's really a way to do it, I think. And that's what I like about permaculture too, is a lot of times it's combining perennial and annual plants, or biennial, which means they come, you know, every other year. But being able to plant things that don't require as much work by planting things that will keep coming back, you know, that's a really good point.

I love me some lavender, and I love me some lemon balm, and I also love Roman chamomile, and they all flower and things like that. And you're right, my husband has said that to me. He's like, just get it. Why don't you just get a pot? I love pots. Now that's funny, right? Like, I love planter pots, but I don't plant. But I love them. I'll go to the store and be like, I just want the pot. And he'll be like, what are you putting in there, hun? I'm like, some dirt and maybe some fake flowers. He's like, that's horrible. So we don't ever end up with the potted plants. So that's actually a really good point. I probably should take him up and you on that idea of just that. Also, I think it's powerful to know that you don't have to start with what we see. Like, I always feel Like I see gardeners who are like, yeah, you should start gardening. And you look at their garden and you're like, there is no way in heaven that I could do something like that. Like the amount of time or the energy you feel like there might be. But I will say to your point of just starting out small, that's what I always tell my clients too. And in business and life is just like, start out with something small that you can just kind of get to know. So I love that advice. What is like, For someone who's living with RA or someone who does have lupus and is concerned with— I know for me, I definitely am always hypervigilant of any insect bites because they— I'm very allergic to them. What are some ways that they can be more cautious and preemptive for working with— in those type of situations?

And that's a good question. Where I live, we have deer flies that bite. I actually have someone in my house that's allergic to them. We have mosquitoes, we have ticks and all of that. I wear knee-high boots all the time. I always wear long pants. I have— you— they make these special gloves now that come in funky patterns and they are called like rose thorn gloves, but they're almost like sleeves that you pull on that are like pantyhose or tights, but they resist thorns. And the amazing thing means, you know, they also resist bugs by you. And they're usually like SPF 50 or more so that you're not going to get— like, I'm totally sun sensitive. So, and you can just slide those on and not be boiling hot. You know, you don't have to always wear like, okay, a long sleeve. Yeah, but I will wear like a scarf and a large hat so that the deer flies don't bite me. But they're— they make all kinds of really cool things nowadays. Like those, they call them rose, like rose sleeves or something. So that— but I wear them for everything. And they even make anti-tick, like little gaiters. They're like little half socks so that if the ticks climb on your ankles, then they don't go any farther. And it's, you know, made from that, uh, the chrysanthemum is what a lot of those anti-tick things are made from. So they're more natural and you don't have to worry about it absorbing into your skin. But I do all of those things and, you know, even wear a back brace, you know, and things like that and knee pads and garden gloves always so that things— I've had I've had, you know, whenever I take my garden gloves off, I've had a tick end up on my hand, and I'm like, nope, I'm not doing this anymore. I'm wearing my gloves.

Um, yeah, I think these are just things like— if you're saying all these things, I've never— I mean, part of my brain didn't even go to the Googling of any of this stuff because it's like, it already feels quote unquote hard. But you saying all that all of a sudden, and that's the reason why I asked, is because we really just don't ever know We don't know what we don't know. We only know what we're afraid of. Right. And I find that in my journey, even with essential oils, I've been using them, but had no idea there were all of these. I don't, I don't want to say magical, but they were like amazing things that they are used for beyond like bath bomb salts. You know what I'm saying? So really sharing some of those things that you're sharing that I'm now going to go look and Google and Amazon and be like, oh, I could do this. And my husband might be happy now that I might consider going outside and playing in the dirt. I really, really have a thing with dirt. But like, that's amazing. I didn't know those things existed. So that's so great. So if you've been listening, so anyone who's listening is like, I'm thinking about it, I'm nervous. These are some of the things you could try. I'm going to have— I don't know, Denise, do you have like a, like a, an easy, like some things to do to kind of get started into the permaculture gardening kind of thing, like a checklist or anything like that, or like a guide?

Yeah, we have some downloadables on the website, and I actually have a PDF I'm going to share with you about creating an accessible garden with tips for folks who are listening to be able to look at that. And, you know, we're starting a regenerative herbalist class, which isn't only for herbalists, it's for anybody who wants to grow their own food and medicine using sustainable and permaculture principles without having to go do a whole permaculture class. You know, nobody wants to go out and go get a certification, but you wanna be able to understand, well, how can I create a garden that's easier to use that doesn't require as much work? And that, and I, what I've been doing, because a lot of people are saying, gosh, I don't even know what plants to pick.

Yeah.

Uh, we have lists of plants, even like here are 50 plants that are aromatic that you could also use in aromatherapy, but that you might not have thought of. Some of them are more obvious, like the lavender, you can infuse it into oil or you can make a hydrosol on your stovetop even. In or dry it and use the buds in your bath. So you're still using aromatherapy with plants that you grow yourself, which is pretty fun. But also other types of plants that are used, like I even grow raspberries and blackberries, and you can use the leaves for tea, and they're really nutrient-rich, and they also are perennial. They keep coming back every year. You also get the fruit. So a lot of things like that are in, gonna be in the Regenerative Herbalist class so that people can go, okay, here's where I live, here's what my, you know, here are what my are and here's what I'm gonna pick. Because, you know, it can be, it can be hard to say, here, here are the top 10 plants you should plant. Well, are you in Atlanta? Are you in Albuquerque? Are you in, you know, Vancouver? Where are you? So yeah, so kind of has some of that with all the zones as well and different types of plants that will do well.

That sounds so lovely. That sounds so lovely. I can't wait to check that out. So we'll have have some of those things in the show notes, y'all, when you go check out this episode. But I have a couple, just two more questions for you. What has been your biggest mindset shift as a business owner with chronic illness?

Thinking I can work 12-hour days and not pay for it. You know, I think that, you know, and you're, you let, you smile because you know, you know, you get in the zone and you're like, I'm not gonna stop, and then your body tells you later that was not a good idea. And really, we have to respect our own bodies and ourselves and what we can do. And, you know, I may want to like crank through something and just get it done, but if I don't respect myself, I'm going to feel bad later. So, you know, prioritizing myself, I think that's healthy for everyone, even if they don't have a chronic illness. But it's really just kind of finding ways to organize my time so that I can best utilize it while still being healthy and recognizing what I can and can't do.

Yeah.

And I don't see it as a can't really, I just see it as a, well, how can I organize it so that I feel the best that I can feel so that I'm more, you know, 100% when I'm actually doing them? Yeah, I love that.

Yes. So we all know that feeling. Like every client, every person I talk to, we're like, yeah, I totally just way overdid this to myself. And then you pay for it for days later and just recognizing it doesn't mean anything. It doesn't mean anything bad about you because you decided to prioritize taking care of your, like, your energy and your body and movement. Like, it's the human thing to do. I also think, to your point, uh, there's— I actually recorded an episode on this on, I think it's episode 131, where it's like the 3 things every entrepreneur should know, which one of them is everybody wants a sustainable flexible business, whether you have a chronic illness or not. We all don't want to be sitting at a desk for 12 hours a day. Like, nobody really wants that. I haven't ever met anyone who's like, yes, I love beating myself up to sit on a chair and sit here and clack, clack, clack, clack. Like, I don't think I've ever met anyone who loves that. So give yourself that compassion and just love of being like, this isn't a can't for me. This is a human being for me of like, I'm gonna take care of myself, I'm gonna get up and go do the thing I need to do and give myself breaks. That's okay, doesn't mean anything about me. So I love that you shared that because it's legit. We, we— I, I still at times find myself like, why am I still sitting here? I need to get up.

So, and that's the good thing about the garden honestly, is that I— and I have a dog, so I'm like, you know what, I need to get up and I'm gonna walk outside. And even if all I do is take my basket and pick 5 things in the basket and then come back in and sit down again, I've taken a break, I've gotten fresh air, I've stretched my body. And so I, I feel like it's a good excuse too, in a way, to keep me like shifting my energy so that I'm constantly getting some movement and some things that make me feel good.

Oh, I love that. That's such a good point. I have a dog too. We'll have to talk about dogs after the show. Tell me a little bit about what you're looking forward to in, in your, in your business and your, in your life, in your business in the next year or so?

Well, one of the, you know, I've, I'm the person who chronically overcommitted for a long time. I was on multiple boards of directors and running a nonprofit and doing all of this. And as my kids came to be adults and we're still in this world that we're in where we're being careful, I realized that, and, you know, we sat down and had a family meeting and we're like, what, what's important to us and what do we want to do? And working on this business with my kids, my daughter and my son, is something that we decided we wanted to do, and it's really important. So for the next year, a lot of what we're looking at is how can we work together to utilize all the different knowledge and expertise that we all bring to the table and work together so that we build something for the future for them to continue with as well. And, you know, maybe they won't, you know, all of us, you know, there's no like, oh, you have to do this. Yeah, your life, you know, with your mother. But, you know, right, we love each other. And, you know, it is, it's really, we're finding it allows us to explore the things that we really enjoy and that we love. And then, you know, the things that I love are different than what my son loves and what my daughter loves. And we're finding that we actually work really well together. And that's what we We want to build our business and find things and ways that we all are contributing something that we feel is valuable and also coming out with something that we're really proud of at the end.

Oh, I so love that. That's such a good one. I love that. Families working together, if you can, without killing each other is a beautiful thing. It's beautiful and in such a great, meaningful way too with, with what you guys are doing. So how can people find you? How can they connect with you online, offline if they're local?

Well, we're at holyrooted.com and we also, we have registration. We're gonna have a launch party for that regenerative herbalist class that's coming up. And so if people sign up for the launch party, they'll get an invitation and I'm gonna have a 2-hour masterclass that's for free for everybody who attends the party. And we're gonna have a party. It's gonna be fun. Um, but we're gonna do that so that people can hear more about that. And we're gonna talk about like building sustainable and regenerative gardens and accessibility too, because that's a lot of what I've been talking about lately. So they can find us on Facebook or Instagram as well at Holy Root.

Awesome. Well, thank you so much.

But sign up for the party.

Yeah. Thank you so much, Denise, for sharing and coming on. This has been beautiful. Thank you.

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It's great to talk.

That's a wrap, y'all. Thanks for tuning in. Thank you for tuning in to Crafted to Thrive, the podcast that helps entrepreneurs with chronic illness to thrive and build a holistic business and life. Check out our website at craftedtothrive.com for this episode's show notes and all the gifts and goodies. Connect with me on Instagram @thrivewithnikitawilliams for more tips and behind the scenes and more. Tag me to share what you loved about this episode and I'll feature you on an upcoming episode. So until next time, remember, yes, you are crafted to thrive.