Setting Health-First Boundaries to Grow a Sustainable Business with Chronic Illness | Brenda Snow

You know what stops most of us from building the businesses we actually really want? It's not a lack of skill, which many of us believe is our problem. It's not a lack of experience, which many of us believe is our problem. It's the belief that we need to be extraordinary and know everything just to keep up and to create results. And when you're living with chronic illness, the pressure becomes almost suffocating because of our internal dialogue, the noise that we receive from the outside world, the conditioning. In this episode, our guest Brenda Snow built a business for 30 years She scaled it to over 400 employees and she successfully exited that company all while managing MS, multiple sclerosis. And when I asked her how she did it, she said something that stopped me in my tracks. You don't need to do anything extraordinary, she says. Just living with chronic illness in itself is extraordinary. In this conversation, Brenda walks us through the real journey, the grief, the anger, the acceptance that keeps cycling back and forth. The boundaries she had to set that felt uncomfortable at first. I can totally relate to this and the way she had to give herself permission to work differently, not harder. She shares the exact moment she realized, I always hired to my weaknesses. If there was something I wasn't good at, I found somebody who was. And she talks about something we don't discuss enough— how vulnerability isn't a weakness in business. It's actually what builds the strongest teams. If you've ever felt like you're constantly starting over after a flare-up, If you've been told you need to hustle harder or be more quote-unquote consistent, if you're worried that setting boundaries means losing clients or even your credibility, this conversation is going to shift something for you because Brenda didn't build a sustainable business by being superhuman. She built it by being human, by setting health-first boundaries, by being honest about what she needed, and by proving that you can grow a business that works with your body, not against it. And if this conversation resonates with you, Brenda has also written the Amazon bestselling Diagnosed: The Essential Guide to Navigating the Patient Journey, where she mapped out the emotional journey nearly every patient goes through and how to find hope, rebuild, and create impact after a life-changing diagnosis. So stay tuned as we get into it.

Just starting a business, you know, that's, that's, that's like an outlier statistic. It's a lot of things. I mean, I had good luck. I met the right people at the right time. I had a good idea, but You don't need to do anything extraordinary. Just living with a chronic illness in and of itself is extraordinary.

Welcome to Business with Chronic Illness, the globally ranked podcast for women living with chronic illness who want to start and grow a business online.

I'm your host, Nikita Williams, and I went from living a normal life to all of a sudden being in constant pain with no answers to being diagnosed with multiple chronic illnesses and trying to make a living income. I faced the challenge of adapting traditional business advice to fit my unique circumstances with chronic illness, feeling frustrated and more burned out than I already was while managing my chronic illness, to becoming an award-winning coach with a flexible, sustainable online coaching business. I found the surprisingly simple steps to starting and growing a profitable business without compromising my health or my peace. Since then, I've helped dozens of women just like you learn how to do the same.

If you're ready to create a thriving business that aligns with your lifestyle and well-being, you're in the right place.

Together, we're shifting the narrative of what's possible for women with chronic illness and how we make a living. This is Business with Chronic Illness. I am really excited to have Brenda Snow on the show. We are We're going to talk about business and life and her new book, Diagnosed: The Essential Guide to Navigating the Patient Journey. When I saw that episode, Brenda, I mean, that title of your book, I was like, where was this back in 2000 and— like, I feel like back in 2009 when I first got diagnosed with one of my first chronic illnesses, I was like, whoa. There wasn't a book. There wasn't a pamphlet. There was a diagnosis and see you later. Here's some medication. You're good, right?

Exactly.

So please tell us a little bit about you, like how would you describe yourself today? And we'll get into more about you.

Great. Well, perfect. Thanks, Nikita Williams, for having me. Like you said, my name is Brenda Snow, and I'm a person that's been living with multiple sclerosis for 3 decades now. So that has its own challenges. Anybody, even if your diagnosis isn't MS, you know, if it's any of these chronic conditions that just never go away.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, it's challenging. So 3 decades really because I was diagnosed with an illness, it started my journey to become an entrepreneur and a businesswoman. And I've founded my main company, but a few other things over the course of the last 3 decades in business, which has been an incredible journey. And I know something you're passionate about.

Mm-hmm.

Um, women in business, me too, but especially being somebody living with a chronic condition and then Recently, I became a published author this March of 2025. That's the year, I think, right? Yeah. And exactly what you said, it's the book that I wish that I had had when I was diagnosed. And in my journey of working and dealing with patients over the last many years, it's something people have always asked for advice about. So when COVID came, I thought, let's take a stab at this. I didn't know anything about writing a book, but have learned a lot. So that's a little bit about me. I love my— some of my hobbies are besides reading, I like art and travel. And so, yeah, and try to maintain a positive outlook in spite of it all.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, First and foremost, I always like to say to anyone who comes on the show who's like, yeah, I'm an entrepreneur and an author. And we list off all of these things. And they were like, oh, we also have chronic illness. It's like such an oxymoron. It's almost like the two worlds shouldn't coexist, but I'm curious to know, as you've ventured over this, over three decades of living with chronic illness and living with multiple sclerosis, How would you break down, like, the emotional journey of living with chronic illness and building an empire, like, in its own space, right? How has that looked like for you? Hard. Yes. Tiring. Yes.

The joy of my life, you know? So I think what I also want to tell people, because you know, I've gotten and received a lot of positive feedback and props for building a business in spite of being sick. And I'm very flattered by that and I'm very humbled. But I also like to add the caveat to it that, you know, this should not be the aspirational goal for everybody, right? Like, I want people to feel really at peace at where they're at in their chronic illness because these stages change. You know, it is— it's a marathon, not a sprint. I mean, that's kind of an overused term, but I would never want anybody to feel less than.

Yeah.

Because they didn't start a business or do something with their chronic illness. Because just starting a business, you know, that's, that's, that's like an outlier statistic. It's a lot of things. I mean, I had good luck. I met the right people at the right time. I had a good idea. But you don't need to do anything extraordinary. Just living with a chronic illness in and of itself is extraordinary. So I really want people to take a deep breath and pat themselves on the back because life can throw a lot of stuff at you. Just the fact that you're getting on with getting on is amazing. Really, truly. And I really feel that way.

True. Yeah, yeah, I agree with you. This is not for everybody. Like, it's just kind of like, I'm sure, and I, I know looking at the premise of your book and looking at that, you really talk about The journey from the patient's point of view. It's not a memoir. It's not necessarily like your story. It's more about a collective of stories of what that looks like. Right. And I really align with that with the show myself, because it's like, yes, this is about business with chronic illness because some people have decided I have more power in my hands when I have more control of my time, my flexibility and all of that stuff, living with chronic illness and making money. Right. And also. It looks different in every person I talk to. And it's just like chronic illness. Like our journeys are unique yet the same. And so for you and your experience, first of all, just living with chronic illness yourself.

Yeah.

How have you found similarities and also challenges when you're looking at other patients and their journey? How has that affected your outlook, your perspective?

Yeah, well, I think, you know, I mean, early on with my MS, you know, the first 3 years were really debilitating, you know, largely wheelchair-bound and dependent on an, you know, an aid to ambulate. And I really wasn't even necessarily thinking about working again. Frankly, I had no idea how I was going to do that. As I started, to get better and realize that I was a 30-year-old with a 5-year-old and at some point had a long life ahead of me and no way to pay the bills. That was when sort of the first seeds of what could it look like and what could it be. And again, for me, I was very passionate about the state of healthcare and the state of chronic care. So I will never forget the year I turned 30. I was living in a long-term rehabilitation center. Everybody in there was over the age of 75 with end-stage neurological conditions. And I just thought to myself, wow, you know, how am I going to define my life? Like, how— what am I going to do for the rest of my life? And seeing nobody that looked like me, seeing nobody that had MS, nobody that was 30 years old, was really where the seed got planted. Like, pre-Google, pre-chat rooms of like, how do you have the power of first-person narrative storytelling? How do we get people together that have chronic conditions to sort of lift each other up. And that was sort of the genesis of what became Snow Companies. And we worked in the biotechnology space because also on my journey, I came to realize that while research and development in pharmaceuticals and therapeutics is amazing, they could probably show up a little bit differently for patients. And so I couldn't believe that I was going to have to take a medication potentially for the rest of my life. And it's like you said before we started recording, they didn't even hand you a pamphlet. You're diagnosed with this and good luck. So that was kind of the same thing. I had no idea how to manage the side effects or what was going to happen to me. I mean, everything about me had changed. I call it an identity earthquake. I didn't look the same, I didn't think the same, I didn't feel the same. And nobody around me knew how to act either. There is stuff in this book for care partners because your world is rocked. So I think what you learn as you live with a life-changing condition is how to sort of handle the seasons, the ups and downs, the detours—

Yeah.

—better, differently, more proactively. But again, it takes some time. What I'm able to do now when I have a hiccup is very different than how I felt emotionally and physically and mentally prepared 20 years ago. Yeah. So again, people have to just give themselves some grace.

Yes. You know, that's such a powerful point to the perspective of there is no one and done fixing. Like, there's not really a fix. You know, I know some of us compare ourselves and look at other and be like, man, she does that thing, or she's doing that thing while she's living with chronic illness. I often get in my DMs personally like, Nikita Williams, how are you doing all of this. Yeah, I always— I'm like in the bed crying. I'm like, say, I'm like, I'm not doing it, like the social media. And I think for me, and I'm sure for you, Brenda, when you first started this journey, like social media wasn't necessarily a thing, right? No, no. How has the visibility of chronic illness become so different from when you began Snow Company and dealing with your own challenges with your chronic illness, like, transformed between now and— between then and now? That's great.

Well, it's a wonderful question. And I feel like we're still in its infancy of getting rid of the disgrace, the shame, the stigma around chronic illness or life-changing illness. Frankly, it annoys the heck out of me. That, you know, people do make a judgment against you. The stories, Nikita, and I'm confident you've heard them too, over the decades I've been doing patient work of people, you know, losing their job, that's illegal, you know, getting terminated from it, getting canceled from their insurance, not being allowed insurance, not having access to Medicaid, Medicare, you know, so long-term disability benefits, you know, can't have access to a physician, underserved patient populations. I mean, all this stuff is real and it's bloody hard. It's really hard. And when you are sick and you don't feel good, it's almost darn near impossible to navigate. I talk about this in the book, but why I like that more people are speaking out, why I like that there's these podcasts and there's social media. And in the field of MS, you've got people like Christina Applegate and Selma Blair, you know, coming out and owning it. I mean, I remember there was a time where nobody of a person of visibility would share that they have anything. And I was even early on told to hide it. And anybody that knows me knows, like, I'm me. What you see is what you get all the time. Every time. I've always been my authentic self. And I sat there looking like this advice person had 3 heads. It's like, what do you mean I wouldn't tell anybody? But they said, well, you'll risk being basically, you know, before the term was a term, canceled. Mm-hmm. But I went against the grain, you know? And I think that's, again, one of the things I feel very proud to do is hopefully have inspired other people to say, you know, there is nothing wrong. And I did not do anything to deserve this. Don't feel guilty. You didn't do anything to deserve it. Your family didn't do anything to deserve it. To the contrary, I like to say that when you live with one of these terrible things, it means you're extra special.

Yes. And creative and amazing and all those different things, right?

100%, girl. That's what I think.

Yes. And you, and you talk about in, in the book about the phases. I have— so I don't know if you've heard me talk about this or if you've listened to this show, but I have an idea of I call it 3 phases, and this is just my, like, very drilled-down fundamentals of what I feel like, especially those of us living with chronic illness go through, because I personally went through my own journey with that. Right. And so I call it like the newbie phase of like, you don't know what's going on with your life. Right. Yep. You just know you woke up one day, likely you had a normal life, and then all of a sudden you didn't. And you're like, what the heck is going on? Yeah. So that can happen for years. And a part of your journey has been like you were misdiagnosed, unbelieved, didn't know what was happening, you know, and then you get to an awareness, I guess, a diagnosis in a way. Yeah. And then you're kind of like in this phase of like, okay, now what? What is my life? I call this like the awareness haze. Like, what are we doing? What's happening? Right. And then I call the last phase, which really is never a last, right? It's the OG phase where, you know, you just keep repeating those two phases over and over.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

So repetition, right? And so I'm curious, you talk about the emotional phases, the emotional journey of those of us living with chronic illness. I'd love for you to share a bit about what did that look like in your own personal journey?

That's great. Well, I love your three phases, and I think they fit perfectly into the way that I see it as well. So in the book, the chapters are set up exactly like this. And in that, I start off in this pre-diagnosis phase because so many people know there's something going on with them, there's something wrong. And I've seen sort of two things happen. The denial card. And I like to say we're not talking about the river in Egypt, right? Yeah. Okay. So the denial where it's like, I'm just overtired. It's because I didn't eat right yesterday. Because you don't really— it's scary to be like, what could be going on? So there's kind of people stuck there. And then there's the other place where they know something's going on, but again, they can't get to the right place to get the diagnosis, whether it's an access problem or a whole host of things. So really, this is where you need to listen to your inner voice, man. Usually that little voice is bang on. So if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's usually a duck. So if you're feeling crummy, really try to stay the course because I say while hearing the words you have MS or you have breast cancer or you have ALS, whatever it is, it is a terrible day. I'm not going to sugarcoat that. Yeah, but it's also the first day. That you have a plan that can start to form, that you have some choices that you don't even see yet on the horizon. So that whole pre-diagnosis and diagnosis phase really then sets off that journey. And I think the next phase that I talk about is grief. You know, there's a lot of grieving that happens to you as an individual. I know from my own personal experience, I was so caught up in the grief of what my life wasn't going to be, all the things that I lost, all of the doom and gloom. And you know what? It wasn't until years later and sitting down and writing this book again that I realized all of those things were not even true. They weren't even things that had happened. They were all this— this catastrophic thinking. So, like, yes, grieve that something's happened to you. Grieve that there's changes. There's changes in your home, your abilities, some of your relationships, again, your work. But that grief is a normal part of the process. Yeah. And as you let it, as you feel it and you start to kind of move through it, you will get to a place that gets better for yourself and your family. Anger happens. I was really— a word I can't say on the podcast. I was really mad. And for me, I harness that anger as action. Different for different people. Don't stay in anger too long because it can be like a really ugly weed in the garden. And then you're going to start to work your way to acceptance. And I think it's when you can start to normalize your new normal, which, again, is very hard, is when you can see that there might be some brightness and some beauty and some significant positive changes for yourself. But you're going to have to go through that muck at first. And as you perfectly said, this is sometimes a rinse repeat, right? Yes. Just because you kind of feel like maybe for a few weeks you worked through grief, it doesn't mean that it ain't ever going to come back and that there's not going to be a time you feel totally bummed about this happening to you. So I think the more you can kind of like understand that these things are predictable, the better off you're able to cope with it.

So good. I love that you said that because I say, I'm like, when you live with chronic illness, Brenda, and you and I both know this, like a part of the fear. And I think also sometimes the false aspect of this is thinking my life is going to be so uncertain and unpredictable that I can't have any control. Like I can't plan, I can't do all of these things.

100%.

And I have found like, well, I already know my body's going to do what it's going to do. And that is more than most people have where they just wake up one day and they're in the hospital. And we all probably experienced that at the very beginning of the stages. But after some time, you know, okay, I'm heading into a flare-up, or this is about to happen. And you can create your life to some way sustain that, right?

It's exactly— that's perfectly said. And that's that newbie phase that you were talking about. That's the reassurance I think that podcasts like this and the book can help give people is to know that that part will get better, right? Because it's really— it is scary and it's overwhelming. And people, you know, it's, it's talked about more today. And I love that some of the younger generation is like more tapped into it and that they, they get the vibe. But, you know, vulnerability is hard. Yes, it is. You know, vulnerability is hard. And you're going to become— you're going to get a masterclass in it real quick. Yeah, you are. You're going to get a masterclass. And again, And it's one of the things I think if you can kind of sort of absorb that, like the art of it and be vulnerable and let people show up for you in ways that maybe you never would have before. I have control issues too. So this has been a big part of my learning process. There's a lot of beauty in that. There is it and a lot of stress relief. And you know, you don't need to put extra stress on yourself when you're living with a chronic condition.

So true. I'm curious, you know, you just, you share it like it's a lot of stress and it's a lot of, a lot of these things. I mean, first of all, we're talking about just the right now. We're just talking about life with chronic illness, like what that looks like in the phases. But when you got to this space, Brenda, of like, okay, now I need to take care of my family. I need to take care of me. And also going through that forever loop of those emotions. How did you— like, can you walk us through how you managed your business during, like, these intense phases?

Yeah, you know, that wasn't always easy. And I think it's like, again, like we're saying, I got better at it as time went on. I think one of the biggest pieces of advice, you know, I would give to female founders or entrepreneurs or anybody out there wanting to do that is I had a lot of passion for what I wanted to do. So I think a lot of that, it wasn't just sort of like a job to me. It was really more of a feeling of like, I kind of want to change the world and I want to make a difference. And so I think for me, that created a lot of energy and helped sustain some of those fatigue times for me. So I would say whatever you're thinking about doing and building, make sure that it does align to your passion, your core values, you know, what you believe in, whether it's a product or a service, because to be successful at it, you're gonna have to pour in every waking minute of yourself. And sometimes that might not be as many hours as somebody that isn't living with a life-changing illness. So first of all, make sure it's something you really like. Yeah. Make sure it's something that you really wanna do. And then be good about setting your own boundaries. It's hard. And I'm gonna be really honest with everybody. I wasn't great at it at first. You know, I wasn't. I sometimes, I was like those stupid EverReady Bunny commercials that, you know, that one that keeps going and going and going and going. And I had gone too much. And then I set myself up for a big attack. Back or 2 weeks in bed when it maybe could have just been a day. Yeah. So get real with conserving your energy, what your boundaries look like. There's going to always be, I think, whether you're sick or not, in startup mode or in early growth years of your business, there's going to always be a naysayer. There's going to always be somebody to tell you all the reasons why it's not going to work and all the reasons why it's not and keep that in context, right? Some of it might be good advice, but if it's a person that's kind of saying those things maybe because of jealousy or ulterior motives, or they don't understand your condition and they just think you're a sick person, drown out that noise, man. Those are people that definitely put your boundaries— those kind of people in my life were not people that stayed in my inner circle. They were not people that I leaned into. They were people that I leaned away from. So I think So that's something to think about as well. And again, back to me, I can only say I'm authentic. What you see is what you get. I was very transparent with my team. I started off with a team of me and one other person. And as I exited my business 2 weeks ago, it's a team of 420 people. But no matter what the size of it was, I shared where I was at with my health. Obviously, we worked in hell, but I let people know. So I felt really passionate about educating them along the way. Like, I'm canceling my meetings today because it's not a good day for me. I'm exhausted. I'm not thinking clearly, and I want to show up for you. Yeah. In a way that you deserve because you're an awesome team member and I want to help guide you or make the best decision together. So we're going to need to reschedule this till Friday. And I found that people were like, Cool. But if I had probably done it differently, it would have made people feel more insecure and maybe been like, well, should we even be working for this lady that's sick? Do you know what I mean? Right. So I think I've been very transparent and forthcoming about where I was as their, as their boss. Yeah.

I mean, that right there, everybody, like that right there. Like, I feel like In general, we all wish we had more space and agency in advocating in that way for ourselves and for whatever businesses we have. I'm curious, as you grew into that role of— in your business, did your advocacy for yourself health-wise really amplify how you were able to show up in your business?

100%. It absolutely did. It absolutely did. Because it's kind of like these stages in the books we were talking about, you know, you're processing it more, you're owning it more, you're understanding yourself more, you're getting familiar with your, you know, your boundaries, your barriers, your overall health. You know, as I had to go lots of places to meet with prospective clients, and you're on a plane every other day, Okay, I did that because that was what was expected. And then I had to say to myself, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, you know, you can't do a plane every day. Yeah. Here's another great example. I just had a 2-week book tour that darn near killed me. I mean, I need— it was a plane every day across the country, the US twice and once overseas. I was like, afterwards, talked to my team and said, no, no, no, no, no, I'd forgotten. We, we need to schedule some down days in here. I gotta go to bed because I really— I mean, I came back from that and I did not move out of the bed for 48 hours. But this is another great example of the rinse repeat cycle. I know this, but I did it anyway because I was excited and passionate. And then I had the little gentle reminder, hello, you need a little bit more rest. And so now, as I'm looking at the next month, I have built in that time to just say, Come on, practice what you preach, right?

Yeah. Yeah. You're— yes, absolutely. I think especially when you're passionate and excited about it, I think there's two places in our lives. I think we can, to your point, there's naysayers or there's people who are saying you can't do it that way because that's not how it's done in business, or that's not how we do things in the professional space. Right. So you have that noise and then you have your own You're all like, oh, I'm so excited. I'm so passionate. And then you're ignoring the body who is saying, yo, we got to slow this down. Right? Yeah. So I'm curious for, for those that are listening who might be in the space of growth, because I find that for my clients specifically, when they're in this space of growth and scaling, yeah, they, they move away from some of the boundaries and things that they have in place because of those two examples I just shared, which is like, you're excited and then you have a world telling you, you can't keep sustaining growth and scaling if you don't just sacrifice more of what your body needs. So I'm curious how, what would you share with someone who's in that space right now?

Great. I love that question. So first of all, I want to validate that there's probably no more absolute fun in building a business than growth and scale, right? I mean, because That is a real world example of what you're doing is working. So if you're seeing growth and you're seeing scale, then you're doing something right. So first of all, kudos. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Because that's not easy to do. So again, keep the enthusiasm, keep your recipe, because now we have a proof point that it's working. Your scale and your growth is there. So keep keep doing what you're doing. So we're drowning out those naysayers by just owning. The proof is in the pudding. You can see it on your P&L, or you can see it in your headcount, or you can see it in your overall sales or your profit margin, whatever your metric might be of, of how you're judging this. And then allow yourself to know that if you need a hot minute, whether it's 10 or a day or whatever, that everything you've created will not fall apart in that time. It will not fall apart. It's going to feel like it is. Absolutely. Control issues. I bet you everybody that's listening to this— I've also always said over the years, if you end up with a chronic condition, it's probably because you are a control freak. But that's a topic for another podcast. Totally. So anyways, just know that by you needing to do a self-care day or, you know, a life-changing condition day or a doctor's appointment or sitting down and having a real conversation with your family about where you're at. Your business isn't gonna fall apart. Mm-hmm. Your business is not gonna fall apart. And that also says this lesson, you know, when you're scaling, let's make sure that executive team or your trusted confidant, whether it's your COO, your CFO, your VPs, your pre— whatever it is that, you know, you— I always hired to my weakness. You know, there's a lot of things I'm excellent at, or I'm a, you know, I'm a master. There's a ton of things that I am terrible at. And I always looked for people that had next-level skills, way better than my own. And they were on the team because I knew, like, leaning into them during these times when I needed to for my health, we were in good hands. Great, great individuals.

I love that. Such a good point. I think to your story and your experience of like knowing that you can say no, or you can have confidence in your team because of advocating, because you and your business, you're not just advocating for you, you built a business around advocacy for patients. Yeah. So living and breathing that in your values and the way you showed up definitely seems like it applied to how you decided to grow and leverage your, like, the strengths you have to help others do the same, which is so cool. So cool. Thank you.

I appreciate that. I appreciate that. Yeah, it's been, it's been just the most incredible, you know, my daughter, I think sometimes gets somewhat annoyed because I tell her sometimes, oh, I loved doing that more than raising you. And she's like, mom. And I'm like, I'm just kidding. But I think anybody that's built a business, they do. You feel like you do for your kids. It was one of my kids. And I think it was really important to me to create a culture at Snow Companies of You know, inclusiveness. It's largely— I mean, I, again, I've just exited, but, you know, there was a time that it was 80% women. You know, the executive team was all women but one male. Like, these things I'm very proud of. People of color, people that identify, you know, gender-wise differently. Like, I'm very, very, very proud of those things because I believe I think that's what makes the world great, you know, is like different perspectives, different— and I don't have all the answers. I'm never going to have all the answers. Nobody is. Nobody is. Yeah. But, you know, if you don't— if you're not open to other people's thoughts and perspectives, I think that limits your ability to be successful for me. Yeah.

No, I totally agree with you. And this is something that I really found very just aligned when I was researching you, learning about you, it's your passion for storytelling. Yeah. Like that's the reason why I have a podcast, like legitimately, and that's a huge thing. And I have found so much healing myself and so much empowerment myself through hearing other people tell their story and then my own ability to tell my story. So how did that show up in your life and the operation of your business? How did that affect that? Yeah.

Well, first of all, you do a great job telling stories, too. I wanted to say that. You're wonderful. Yeah, you're wonderful to listen to. You're a natural. Well, I think it was without knowing it at the time. It's only a reflective question. I knew that when I started sharing my story at support groups and just very grassroots and organically early on before the company was founded, it was healing me. There was so much power. I mean, there's part of my story that I talk about, and there is parts of my story in the book, although it is not a memoir. You know, when my daughter thought I was going to die and she was 5 years old and it was just her and I, that her biological father wasn't present in her life. And I mean, I still get tears to this day looking at her face and her saying, Mommy, are you going to die? The book opens that way. And that— I must have shared my story tens of thousands of times and cried like a baby every time I got to that point. And then one day, I didn't cry as hard or as long at that part. And I went back home and had like a meditative, reflective moment. And I thought, it's because you've started to heal. It's because you started to heal. And then I thought, well, wow. Wow. Now, what if you can amplify that? What if every patient has an opportunity to share their story and move somebody else to thinking about their condition differently? Or it's a call to action, or they just don't feel so alone. Yes. You know, then that's, that's really powerful stuff. Also, the way we learn things like The reason you read books to kids, I mean, it's proven with MRI scans and all kinds of science that you learn in the form of the parable. The Bible's written in the parable, the Koran's written in it, you know, whatever it is. I mean, it's not a religious thing, it's just a nursery rhyme. Yeah. A storybook.

That's how we learn. It is. That's how we think, actually. That's how our senses work.

Exactly. And it's how complicated thoughts makes sense in your brain. So, you know, you can— I, so I started to see all kinds of patients that had gone to the doctor a million times, been told, "Meh, meh, meh, meh," in their 5-minute, you know, appointment. And like you said, maybe handed a leaflet. But when they could see Johnny tell his story that had the same, you know, condition, age-related macular degeneration, and what he went through when he was blind, and how we got to a place of help and acceptance. And that person was like, oh my God, like, this is the most profound moment of my life. I thought, this is what needs to be amplified. Mm.

Yeah. So powerful. It's interesting that a part of your story and the healing came from the repetitiveness of telling it, right? Yeah. Do you think that where we are in times now, there is an aspect of that that we're missing?

You know, I do a little bit. And I don't know if this is going to answer it exactly maybe the way you're asking the question. So let me try here, and we can go back. But I think there's so much more noise for humans today. You know, our attention spans, we know, have gotten shorter than even 20 years ago. You know, what used to be somebody had the attention span to watch for 15 minutes is now like 4. So we have these phones attached to our, you know, head and hip and everywhere else, and there's just a lot of incoming information all day, every day, all the time. And it's my personal belief, only my personal belief, that we're struggling with the art of listening. Yeah. And yeah, and how can you be understood if you don't hear and you are not listening? And when somebody is in this vulnerable state that we talked about and they're wanting you to listen, man, you got it. This is the big validator, right? Because they're going to feel 10 times worse if you don't listen, if you don't acknowledge their pain, their suffering, their joy, whatever it is, and you are on the phone or you're looking away, or your own attention span is such that you can't be emotionally available. So the art of listening, I think, is key. And I think it's— as a country, forget chronic illness, To be understood, we need to hear.

Listening. Yes, I hear you. I hear you with that. I think what I have seen very much so, Brenda, in the space of that is that we're craving that. Yeah, people are craving that. I think this is why communities, smaller niche communities, are growing. They're becoming more important. I don't care how— this is my whole thing about AI. I'm like, I don't care how much AI comes into the world, we're still going to need human beings to be human beings and we're still going to want to connect to each other. I just do not, you know, and so I think it's such a powerful point that you're bringing out that the listening is key. We're not actually listening. We think we're listening. And this is very much, you know, as a patient myself, even with our doctors, even with our healthcare team, We almost have to like sit them down and tell them how to listen to us because they're not even present. They're not even listening. And so I really think it's important when we have books and we have authors and we have leaders or thought leaders, however you want to call us, right. That we are also listening back and providing spaces to be listen to or to be heard. And I know you've done a lot of that work within your company and as well outside of that. So what has that looked like for you, building those spaces for people to be listened to and connect?

Yeah, you know, like, really humbled beyond belief and beyond measure. I think it's sacred, you know? Like, sometimes, you know, I'm a stranger, and 2 hours later, you know, your deepest, darkest secrets and emotions. And the best thing, you know, you're feeling comfortable to do that. But again, I think it's because I make people feel comfortable. So again, listening, making people feel comfortable, being open yourself. I will share, you know, all of my things, and they're not all great, you know, but this is also normal. Yeah. So I think it is having that space for people. I mean, yes, when you talk about online communities and all kinds of things, there's also some simple rules of engagement. Be kind. Yes. Literally be kind. One of my biggest insecurities about launching the book, and I don't have many, honestly, it's taken me to become old to get rid of all the insecurities. Was the trolls. You know, it was the people that it's like. And, you know, it's like my parents when I was growing up said, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all. And kind of never truer words, right? So, you know, kindness. People need you to show up kind. People need you to show up with a sense of gratitude. And then I think you— these things can happen a lot more organically where you can have the opportunity to educate, and be educated. And, you know, now that I really look to, like, a lot of my philanthropic work and, you know, give back not only with, with, with, you know, financial resources but my time resources, people are so appreciative, you know. They really, really are. And it's simple act of kindness again, and when you see somebody that's so appreciative because you showed up or because you cared, because you did something, I think these things are very— they like— I'll use my last word— they snowball. They create synergies. They really do. And that's the kind of stuff that I think we need as people living with chronic conditions to to be our cups filled up and to be able to keep giving back in ways. But I think it also just, it spreads and it magnifies.

Yeah, yeah, baby steps, the baby steps, the ripple effects, everything, you know, is, is there. I have a question that I ask everyone, and I usually ask it a little later, but I'm gonna ask it now. What is something that when you— to— and this is kind of prong. You can answer this both ways, honestly. Sure. What is something that you thought was true when you were first diagnosed that you no longer believe is true?

Well, I think when I was first diagnosed, I thought I was going to absolutely have a terrible, miserable life and that why would I even want to continue going on? Like, this was such a horrible diagnosis. And the news I got from various neurologists, from being misdiagnosed to painting a very bleak picture for my life. Honestly, if I didn't have my daughter and know that she needed a mother, like, I really thought there was nothing worth living for. And I know that to be categorically inaccurate. 'Never true.' 'Totally wrong.' 'It's false.' You know, as many ways that I can condemn that thought. So that's, that's probably the biggest one.

And it's a heavy one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can, I can feel that. I can relate to that in a lot of different ways. Yeah. It's scary to have that be your first, you know, belief. And And at the time it feels very real, right? It feels so unbelievably real. And then when you learn that it's not that, it is a relief. I think it also lightens what we experience with our chronic illnesses, like the level of intensity that they have. They felt to me personally lighter. I don't know if that's an experience, but I feel like once you let go of that false-ness, it shifts everything, right? It does.

Yeah. And the Snow family creed, and I got so sick and tired of hearing it from my father, and it was so simple, but it was like, stay positive, Bren. Always stay positive. Find the positive thing in all of this. And I remember one time looking at him— this is years ago— and just losing it, just being like, there is nothing positive. I was like, he was right. Like, trying to find that one nugget to hold on to is exactly what you said, Nikita, lightens everything. Yeah.

And to your point with that, I have a— I don't know how you describe it, but I have a dance with that, right? A dance with being OK with sometimes it truly 100% sucks and I am not going to see the positive and I am okay that I don't see the positive right now. Okay. It just sucks. And then also I always say it's never this or it's always, and then also, yeah, there is something powerful in being like, yeah, that was the worst day of my life and I'm still here. Right. Like there is an aspect of that. And I think we, to your point, we talked like full circle in this conversation. We have to give all of us permission to be riding those waves, how they come, and not judge someone on whether or not they're just only seeing right now the funnel of negativity. Yeah. Because it is what their lived experience is right now. And also hope that they get to see some light later and not shame them for either way, you know?

Exactly. Yeah. I, I, the judgment, I have no tolerance for, no room. And, you know, as I've been out speaking about the book, if that's the one thing I could say is, you know, hope you're not alone. And, you know, just do not feel judged. Do not take on that guilt. Do not take on any of that because it's, it's just, it's just, it just will, it can just eat you alive. Yeah. You know, and any, and anybody that really loves you and is really worth having in your inner circle isn't going to judge you. And the ones that do, that's what I have to say. She said, pfft. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You guys will have to check out the video part of that because it's a very visual moment there.

Yeah, sticking out my tongue, making the brrr sound.

Exactly. I love it. I love it. Okay. And then lastly, what is something true about business? What is something that you thought was true about business that is no, you're like, yeah, that's not true?

Oh boy, ton, right? Oh, let's see. Well, let's see. Something that I thought was true about business that I found out that it wasn't true. I think I thought it would be a lot easier to manage large teams of people than it turned out to be. And I'm talking about implementing best-in-class, you know, training and development opportunities. Mm-hmm. Because when you're smaller, you as the founder or the entrepreneur are really touching everybody and everything. Mm-hmm. And this osmosis is happening and this knowledge transfer is happening and the energy is happening and you're just like all in it. Once you've hit about, at least for me in my business, that 80 people mark, 80, 80 people. I wasn't— it was just humanly, it was just not possible, you know. And back to that scale. But it was like, well, how do we infuse in all this next generation of great team members all of the things that this kind of first group had? And I thought that would be easy, and it wasn't. So Keeping the culture alive, keeping that story alive, keeping the purpose alive, keeping the quality and the excellence alive. That's very hard, remains challenging. And it's something, again, as the founder, the CEO, whatever your job, that you really can't take your eye off of because that is the one thing I found out that like nobody's gonna do it quite like you either. It, or if it's not an important initiative from your desk, desk, it's not going to be an important initiative from anybody's desk.

So interesting. That is so interesting. It's, it's kind of in a reflection of advocacy for yourself. Like no one is going to know what your body feels and you can be in a room of doctors and trying, they're telling you what the, you know, paper says that it says, but you're like, no, but my body is saying different. Or I'm feeling it different, only you can really advocate to that level. Right. And so trying to infuse that into a business where like, I know you think that's the way we need to go, but I know in my bones that this is how we need to do it. And you may not agree because you don't see the vision. And that's what I hear you saying. It was like a lot more challenging over time as you add more people into that vision to expand on that.

Yeah. And keeping those core competencies alive and nurtured and making sure that kind of like the success of how you did things and why you did things that got you here, we're not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, right? That's continuing to do. And I find that the more people on the team, it's not impossible, just becomes harder to do and you have to come up with different strategies to do it because you can't do it all. Yeah.

I heard this to your point. I heard this from Sarah. I want to say it's Sarah Blakely Spanx, the CEO of Spanx. She's great. And she was saying, you know, depending on how you scale is dependent on like how diluted your, your thoughts and your values become, especially if you're taking on investors and all those kinds of things. And why her business felt like she did so well is because she didn't do that. At the beginning and it took her a long time, decade, over a decade to get to that point. And so her vision kept staying clear to what she wanted it to be. And I think that's an interesting— I think that's right too. Right. I think that's an interesting thought as we think about our businesses and how do we finagle— that's a whole nother conversation, right? On it. Okay. If you are going to be growing with a smaller team, how do we create systems and things around you so that you're not sacrificing yourself completely and your wellbeing. So that's a, that's an interesting thought, but I appreciate you sharing that with me. That— you're amazing.

I love that. We can make a list together and come back and talk about it.

We totally can. We totally can. Well, please let us know how everyone can find you. We know we'll have everything in the show notes, but I always like to have the guests share with us how they can find you and how they can support some of the initiatives you are in are doing right now.

That's, that's very, very kind. So brendasnow.com is, is the website. I think it will be looking fancy and new and refreshed here in the near future, but you can also get a hold of me through there. You can contact me and, and I will get an email and I will respond to you. And then I think, you know, the book is really helpful too. I just do want people to know that all of the proceeds that I receive will be donated to health-related charities. So I look forward to announcing that at the end of the year. And Nikita, if you have any special ones, all of the lovely people that have had me on the podcast, I'd love to know so that I can make sure that some of those contributions go to things that you're passionate about, because I do appreciate the time and your audience. And the last thing I would say is never, ever, ever let let one of these insidious, life-changing chronic illnesses define who you are because you're awesome just the way you are. And the sooner that you come to terms with that and own that, you're going to be just feeling so much better and achieving all of the things that you deserve to be achieving.

I love that. Well, thank you so much, Brenda. Thank you too. Lovely.

I enjoyed it so much. Me too. Sending you big kisses.

Same here. Same here. Thank you.

Thanks, everybody. Take care. Bye, y'all. Bye-bye.

That's a wrap for this episode of Business with Chronic Illness.

If you would like to start an online coaching business with me, head to the show notes to click a link to book a sales call and learn how to make money with chronic illness.

You can also check out our website at www.craftedtothrive.com for this episode's show notes and join our email list to get exclusive content where I coach you on how to chronically grow a profitable business while living with chronic illness. Until next time, remember, yes, you are crafted to thrive.

When I started my podcast, I was in recovery from a surgery related to my chronic illness, trying to connect with other businesses and searching for a way to keep growing my business without sacrificing my healing or well-being. Podcasting became my most aligned marketing tool. It let me show up consistently without showing constantly. That's why I created the Start Your Podcast Planner, a digital guide to help you launch a purpose-driven podcast that feels like you. Whether you're starting from scratch or finally ready to get your voice and your story out there, or looking for a sustainable way to grow your business through marketing that converts, this planner gives you everything I wish I had. It's that step-by-step strategies that won't overwhelm you, confidence and building prompts to help you fall in love with your voice and share it with the world, and tools and templates you can use again and again without overworrying or being concerned about the tech. Most importantly, it helps you turn your story into sales or income that actually feels aligned. If you're ready to grow your audience, attract clients, and share your message in a way that works with your capacity, this is where you start. Tap the link in the show notes to grab your Start Your Podcast Planner or visit thrivewithnikita.com/podcast-planner. You've waited long enough. Let's get your voice and your story out in the world and build a profitable, sustainable marketing system through podcasting.