Why Food Shame Is Keeping You Burned Out in Business | Jessica Setnick

If you've been feeling drained, unfocused, or feeling stuck in a cycle of doing what you feel like is everything right, but still feeling like you're running on empty, today's episode is going to share a unique perspective of why that might be. We're talking about food shame and the quiet guilt and comparison and body shaming that sometimes crop up in our business and how it can leak into affecting your energy and also lead to burnout. So listen out for how to spot food shame energy leaks and what to do in the moment when they show up, and simple mindset shifts that help you nourish yourself in ways that actually fuel your growth in your business. So in this episode, I really wanted to have someone to come who could give us some support around this topic, and her name is Jessica Setnick. She's a registered dietitian and eating disorder specialist because she helps people replace food shame with practical and compassionate tools. We're showing you how to spot these shame-based patterns and simple ways to nourish yourself that actually give you energy back, and has— and how this directly connects to your ability to sustainably grow your business while navigating burnout healing or managing chronic illness. Now, even though this topic is pretty heavy in some ways, it is gentle, honest, and full of moments that are going help you rethink and reset with your body and how we think about our bodies and how we treat our bodies and how that reflects on how we show up and build something meaningful in our business. All right, so stay tuned. Welcome to Business with Chronic Illness, the globally ranked podcast for women living with chronic illness who want to start and grow a business online.

I'm your host, Nikita Williams, and I went from living a normal life to all of a sudden being in constant pain with no answers to being diagnosed diagnosed with multiple chronic illnesses and trying to make a livable income.

I faced the challenge of adapting traditional business advice to fit my unique circumstances with chronic illness, feeling frustrated and more burned out than I already was while managing my chronic illness, to becoming an award-winning coach with a flexible, sustainable online coaching business. I found the surprisingly simple steps to starting and growing a profitable business without compromising my health or my peace.

Since then, I've helped dozens of women just like you learn and how to do the same. If you're ready to create a thriving business that aligns with your lifestyle and well-being, you're in the right place.

Together, we're shifting the narrative of what's possible for women with chronic illness and how we make a living. This is Business with Chronic Illness.

I am so excited to have Jessica on the show, and Talking about a pretty deep conversation. I almost want to like preface this with trigger warning, kind of potentially for folks who might be listening. We talk a lot about life and business, and obviously we talk about different journey, different people's journey, but we don't, we haven't talked about eating disorders often in this show. It comes up kind of like as a whisper. And, you know, our show is all about bringing the whispers forward so we can bring some light and remove some of the shame and the stigma away from it. Because if you're a business owner, you don't— you're not excluded from this. And if you're a person living with chronic illness, you're also not excluded from this. And this can be chronic for some people. So I'm excited to have Jessica just come in, and she has such an expertise in this area and her personal journey. So welcome.

Thank you. I'm happy to be here. Happy to see you.

Yeah, yeah. So I'd love for us jump right on in and have you share a bit about, you know, when we talk about disordered eating, we— when we first talked, I was like, oh, there is so many places we can go with this conversation. And I think the theme that came up really importantly is that disordered eating isn't just an eating disorder. Like, there are— it's the way we view how we eat, right? And I'd love for you to kind of start from that higher level.

Sure.

Of, of where, where we can— where does that look like for you as an expert in the space, as someone supporting the community?

I love the idea of really broadening our mindset about what we think about eating disorders, and that's why I actually prefer to use the words dysfunctional eating, or dysfunctional eating behavior, or disruptive eating. Because to me, when you say eating disorders, we all get an avatar image in our mind of what that is, right? And I don't even have to repeat it because I know everyone knows what I'm talking about. And really only a small percentage of people with eating problems fit whatever that description is that we have in our mind of sort of the standard. And it's very outdated. It's very biased. It's very passé. It comes from the way the eating disorder field was sort of conceptualized early on. And the truth is, anyone who eats can have an eating disorder. So we need to really broaden that idea. And it's been obvious to me ever since I've been in the field. In other words, I didn't have to overcome the idea that eating disorders only affected a certain group of people. I had it the opposite. I sort of faced that in the world, like, wait, I don't understand. It's so obvious to me that Anyone who eats can have eating problems. Why do I have to convince my professional organization of that? Why do I have to convince a doctor of that? It just seems so obvious to me. And so just facing that sort of— just bumping up against society's idea of what an eating disorder is made me realize I need to change the narrative. So I'm going to actually change the words. And so it's really just anyone who is having a problem with their eating. Anyone who's eating is taking them away from their goals rather than moving them toward their goals, whatever those goals may be. Whether it's to be well-nourished in the face of chronic illness, whether it's to actually recover from a situation, whether it is simply to feed a family well, right? Any of those things can be made more difficult by sort of the emotional aspects of eating. And if we just think about eating as fuel, then we're missing out on a big part of things that can disrupt our eating. So I really appreciate your way of thinking of this, of trying to open minds about the fact that We're not trying to say— to label people or put people in boxes. We're just trying to say, "Hey, everybody who eats can have difficulty eating, and it doesn't have to rise to some level of some diagnostic criteria or something like that in order for someone to want to change." Yeah, yeah.

That is so powerful, just that angle of being like, "I can relate to trying to change the narrative of what something looks like from textbook versus a broader space of being like, yeah, well, there's all of these other things to take in consideration that, yes, the textbooks, I believe, are very important, are very helpful in the diagnostic area. But often I feel like we miss— I don't want to say breadcrumbs, but the breadcrumbs that lead to the bigger labels, right?

Yeah.

Are happening.

Yes, yes, 1,000%. And to me, it's sort of that, that idea of like the starfish, you know, the person throwing the starfish back into the ocean, and the, the person comes along and says, you can't possibly save them all. And the person says, well, but it mattered to that one, right? It's kind of like that. It's like, I feel like so many of the, let's say, criteria or assessment tests or whatever they're really trying to look at a big population, how many people in a population meet these criteria, when any one individual might only have one of those criteria, but that's still important to them. They're still having that problem.

Yeah, no, I totally agree. Totally agree. So how has this journey of this, this really big conversation, this really big place started for you? Is it a— and I know we talk about this in the, in the bio, but can you share a little bit about what has been your experience that led from, okay, not only am I wanting to talk about this and change this narrative, but also let me translate this into like a space where I'm supporting people, I'm supporting myself even financially, having a business talking about this. How has that journey been for you?

So it's very challenging. And I think that probably a lot of people listening have this experience. I don't think I'm unique, but to be in a profession that is 90-something percent female, it's definitely looked at as sort of a social work kind of profession. I'm trained as a dietitian. We're not trained to ask for money. We're not trained to be assertive. We're not trained to see the value, the dollar value of what we provide. We are very caregiving individuals. And so having a business was really challenging for me. I originally worked in a hospital and was just sort of disgusted is the best word I can think of for how people were treated. And I mean patients and I mean employees and felt like I could do this better on my own, right? So I started my own private practice and the first year my accountant said to me, are you prepared to make a donation of $20,000? And I said, absolutely not. What are we even talking about? And he said, well, that's what you've done. You have $20,000 of bills that people owe you and they haven't paid you simply because you haven't asked them to. And that was— wow, that was brutal, right? To hear that, that because I didn't have the skills to— and, and where was I going to get those skills? I mean, you're not born with that, right? And in the hospital, you don't ask a person to pay you for your services, right? You get paid by a third party. And so It was really something I had to go to therapy about to make it into a business and recognize that there was value. And my therapist kind of helped me recognize that I was, I was saying, but like Mother Teresa, Mother Teresa does good works for free. And here I am trying to charge people. And she said, first of all, Mother Teresa has a whole institution, a religious order that is supporting her. Okay. Mother Teresa still has someone paying her bills, right? She still has bills and someone pays them. But on a bigger overview, she said, there's— you're comparing yourself to Mother Teresa. Mother Teresa does good works for free. You do good works for money. You're forgetting that there's people who do nothing all day. There's people who do bad works for free. There's people who do bad things for money. Right. And somehow you come out on the wrong end of this spectrum. And it was really quite amazing to realize what I was doing to myself, what I was saying to myself. In thinking, how can I charge people for my services when that's how everybody pays their mortgage? That's how everybody puts food on the table. And yet somehow I felt like I had to do it out of goodness, which, I mean, I think I am a good person. I want to help the world with my work, but I also have to make a living doing that. I mean, that was really tough times to get through that whole mental hurdle.

That's a whole— that's a whole other episode, Jessica. I mean, I think I, I'm curious too to think of like, do you feel like that, that came— I know as so many women we talk to on the show are all— many of us are in that service-giving nurture field. I don't think I have had anyone who really isn't in that space on the show, even if they are selling a product, even if they're in a tech, there is a reason why they're doing something. And it is truly for the help of others, like helping other people in some way or giving something that they wish they had that didn't exist. Right. I wonder for you, where has, where do you feel like that thought process of, oh, I should be like, you know, not that I should be Mother Teresa, but I should give these services away for free. Where do you think that narrative came from? Where do you think that belief came from?

Well, I think part of it is comes from a really good positive place. I happen to be Jewish, and one of the sort of principles of Judaism is called tikkun olam, repairing the world, right? Wanting to make the world a better place, partnering with God to make the world a better place. Those kind of ideas are very much ingrained in being raised Jewish. And so I think those are, you know, that's very wholesome. Let's say that what you do with your day can impact the world for better or for worse and wanting it to be better. But I also feel like I have a very entrepreneurial spirit in my family. But I now know my dad died when I was 12 and I found some of his papers from him having his own business. And it seems that he had this— I don't want to say that it was not good, but this sort of idea that doing good things for customers is part of the way that you drum up business, right? So in other words, if you— he was a watchmaker— if you change someone's watch battery for free, they'll come back to you when they have a more expensive job. And what you don't maybe realize is that, that you have to do this strategically, right? You can't just be giving away your services for free. So The way I would say I sort of have spun that into a positive is if the people who can afford to pay me pay me, then I can choose to see however many people I choose who can't afford to pay me. But what my accountant was trying to say was, get the people who can afford to pay you to pay you. Don't just not ask people to pay you for your services. So I think it came from a good place, but it, it wasn't necessarily deployed in a very financially sane manner.

I don't— I think it was sane. I think it's very sane to be giving, but I also like— and to be wanting to help other people in a good way, but maybe sustainable. I was gonna say not like— not sustainable for you, the person doing it, because, you know, that's a huge piece of this, like, right, the sustainability of growing a business As a person who's also dealing with their own personal health challenges, right? It is, it's a, it's a teeter-totter. Like it really is of like, okay, yeah, I can, I know for myself personally, I have this conversation all the time with like one of my good friends who, lots of good friends who live with chronic illness running businesses where we're talking often and like, there's that fine line of, you understand what it means for something to be out of your reach because of so many different reasons, not just financially, just in general resources. And then to have a business where you're trying to offer resources for some people where it might be out of their reach, there is that, you know, there's that fine line of finding where your values meet. I gotta pay my bills, right? And so I think there's there's power of having these conversations. I always tell people there's not a right or wrong answer to this. It looks different for everybody. If someone's listening right now who's listening to the show, and I know we have a lot of entrepreneurs and we have a lot of people who have been in the business for a while, who are just starting, mix thinking, but what does it look like for Jessica? What does that fine line look like for Jessica? Because maybe that might give me a gauge of where my fine line might be.

Yeah. Yeah. So I'll say it this way. The best job I ever had when I, even as being an entrepreneur, I've sometimes taken, you know, contract positions, that kind of thing. The best position I ever had was one where I didn't have to charge to present because I was getting paid by my organization, right? So I was getting a salary. And so I didn't have to choose, like, I can speak to this third grade Girl Scout troop. And they can't afford to pay me, but that's okay because I'm getting paid by my— right? So it was so freeing to me to not have to get involved in those negotiations and things like that. It's harder when you have to think of it in terms of what am I giving up? And yeah, if I have nothing I need to do on that day and I can speak to that 3rd grade Girl Scout troop, I want to do that. But I can't do that on a day when, let's say, there's another job that does pay money, if that's the only time to do that, I have to choose the thing that pays money. And that's— it's challenging sometimes. Luckily, I would say I'm able to balance that most of the time. Another example is an organization. Someone heard me speak recently about child feeding and eating disorders and asked me to come speak to her community organization of people who go out into the community and help people with their nutrition. And so we were talking budget and they can't afford my fee, but because I work for myself, I can say, what is in your budget? And I can decide, you know what, it's in-state, it's, it's a driving distance away. It's not a flight. I can, I can go there for that lower amount that they have in their fee. And that's okay with me. So I guess the line for me is I have standards of what I will do for less money or for free. Versus what I want. And if you're gonna make money off what I'm offering, then that's not fair for me to do that for free and then you make money off of me. But if you're a community organization with grant funding and you have a fixed amount and you're willing to give me that fixed amount, it just happens to be less than my fee, I may choose because I believe in what your organization is doing to take that lower fee because it helps me fulfill my mission. But at the same time, I'm not necessarily saying I'll do it for free because there is a value and a cost associated with it. So it's a, it's a line, but it flexes back and forth. It's not like a set line. I get to be the one to decide which organizations I flex for and which I don't.

Yeah, I love that. And that's the— I think that's the power of being an entrepreneur is having that ability to find your flex and your flow, I guess you will, and deciding what works for you. Thanks for sharing that. I think, like I said, I just love having other perspectives on how you might decide to find that line of taking care of yourself and charging, and what does that look like in alignment with your value system. I'm curious.

And I actually have a side hustle, I guess you could call it, as a speaker coach, and that's one of the main things that we talk about is how to make your decisions of which organizations you will lower your rate or you will speak for free. What are the— what is the value that you may be getting out of that as opposed to letting someone take advantage of you or someone who says, well, I can't believe you charge that much. I mean, I could find someone to do it for free. Well, as Mel Robbins would say, let them, let them find someone to do it for free, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. Treat you like that. That's totally different from we really value what you do. I'm sorry, we just don't have a budget this year. Tell us what we can offer you that could help you. Is there anything we could do that might not be financial? Well, you know what, if an organization has a professional photographer, professional videographer, and they can provide a recording of my presentation, that has a lot of value to me, even if they don't have money, let's say. So it's that kind of sort of willingness to have a discussion with someone and negotiate. That's why I feel like You know, black and white, yes or no, is not usually the ideal for most decisions in business. I mean, yes, there's some things that are definite no, like someone brushes up against you or something, like yuck, no. But, you know, I'm— I guess in, in the more broad sense of like, is this the right opportunity for me, I need a lot more information before I can say a definite yes or no.

So such a good point, such a good point. And I think that shifts and ebbs The more you get into business, the longer you've been in business, that looks different. And some things ick you right away and you're like, no. And I think if you're first starting, things ick you and you think you have to do the thing because you're like in that beginner phase. And I always tell folks like, that's not true. You don't have to. And actually, I really encourage them not to do the thing that feels icky at the beginning because that's just almost like creating this pathway in your brain and this pathway in your, in your business of that foundation. That can lead to this feeling of this invisible— I call it like the invisible impossible place that you're not really going to reach because you are taking— you're like, you're doing actions that are completely out of alignment of what you really want and what you really are trying to do. So I appreciate you sharing that. And speaking of invisible, I was just thinking, kind of bring our conversation back around to eating and eating well or eating not so well, right?

Well, and eating issues are completely invisible. I mean, we have sort of been brainwashed to think that we can look at someone and determine that they have an eating problem based on what they look like, and it's completely false. Just could not be more false. You cannot look at someone and know what they are eating. And I mean, doctors think they can. There's probably dietitians out there who think they can, but once you've been a dietitian for any amount of time, you realize Wow, some of the things that we hear are just— you couldn't even have imagined them in your weirdest nightmare. So it's very surprising sometimes when you find out someone is eating totally differently from what you might have made up in your head.

Mic drop. Like, I'm just like, mm. I mean, that's the thing, right? We make a lot of assumptions, even for ourselves. I think if we bring it into our own selves, what we consider good, bad, for us is always based on what we are seeing other people quote unquote say is good to eat, good to do, habits to do. I'll share a little quick story and I'll ask you your thoughts because I think our audience will appreciate this. You know, I have friends who've all gone, especially in the— and I say friends, they're like in their 20s, I'm almost 40, so there's a big age difference. But my 20 friends who are like on the juice, you know, juice cleanse and on this thing and, you know, juice is the best way. And then later on in life, they realize, well, there's some things about juicing that I didn't think about. And, you know, you find yourself as whatever space you're in— I know for me, living with chronic illness, what I put in my body is always something I'm thinking about because of how it might affect me. And for a long time, cert— just the idea of a juice would like cringe me to death because of the pain it would cause my digestive system. And they say You know, so many people I've talked to is like, juicing is the best way for your digestive system to heal. And from a visual outside look, you know, it looks like that's how it's supposed to be because that's what all the healthy people say they— that they are experiencing. And again, to your point, the invisibleness that our bodies are all made different. And so the idea that every kind of trend is— or not trend, or way of eating is healthy for your body, I feel like is a mis— No more. But it's something we hear all of the time.

I feel like so much of what we, let's say, learned as dietitians contradicted itself because on the one hand, we're learning to be a nutritionist. We're learning to look at each individual person and come up with very individual recommendations for them. And then on the other hand, we're sort of told this is the science, this is how things work, but it's not that way for everyone. And it's so ironic to me that You know, people, let's say influencers, that's just a good example, that they could say, this is what worked for me, so this is what everyone else should do. That's absurd. That's like saying, this is my shoe size, so you should wear this shoe size too. Like, what? That doesn't make any sense. And yet when it comes to nutrition, somehow we, we hear that. And what is so important to remember is that that is a marketing message, right? We don't think of it as this is a marketing message. Someone is trying to sell me a product or a diet or a plan or something. And if we fall for it, I don't think the fault is ours. I blame the people who are preying on someone with a chronic illness or with a dilemma that just want to feel better. And so I blame them. I blame the person who makes it sound like this is what fixed me, so therefore it's what's going to fix you. I think that is people doing bad works for money. And they may actually think that they're helping people and they may believe that, but they need to really look within and say, if I am actually helping people do things that are hurting them, then I'm not actually helping them. And you can sit behind your computer screen and you can say, well, they didn't have to do it. That's fine. But that is your marketing message. That is how you make your money, is by preying on people who are really desperate for a solution. And that just makes me very frustrated.

Jessica's body language is like about to come get you. Okay. Like if you're just listening to this, I feel like Jessica says she coming for you. Who y'all doing? Like, that's what I feel like just came out of Jessica. Just in case y'all wanted to know if you're not watching the video, but I, I, I feel you. I feel you. I feel you. I think if we are talking about food and nutrition and we want to be more open and inclusive. Because I can't even say for myself personally that I haven't— like, I'm a huge essential oils fan because it has literally— it literally did so many wonderful things for me managing my life with chronic illness. But I know that it's not for every client, like, it's not for everybody. Like, there are people that it's not for. So I have learned over the years from my excitement, oh, this worked for me, and translating like, well, actually, this worked for me and it may not work for you, but if you want some things, you might want to consider— like, more of an open and way of talking about this. And I think when we think about nutrition, because there's so many, like, diets— I think I was reading, like, there's, like, over 100 diets and all these different kind of things. So, yeah, right? How can we be more inclusive and understanding of the different types of bodies or the people walking around trying to figure out the best way to be healthy that we can't see, but we're offering advice? You know, we're offering thoughts because we did the juice cleanse and it worked for us, but Maybe it's not going to work for your friend.

So I would say there's nothing wrong with sharing your experience. It's more the bullying type of thing or the, "You're wrong if you don't do it this way." And a lot of the reason that diets and pills and different things succeed is because people are evangelists for it when they first get going and they feel so much better or so much different. And by the time the effects either wear off, or maybe it was a placebo effect and it was just exciting to have a new project, or maybe they gain all the weight back, or their symptoms recur, or whatever it is, by that time, nobody is an evangelist for it anymore, right? Nobody is talking about it anymore. And so people don't share like, oh, by the way, that juice cleanse, it gave me diarrhea for 8 days. Like, you know what I mean? Like, people only share it when it's in the positive side. So that's how things keep going. And so I think being honest with ourselves would be good. And I think being more of a, let's say, a nonjudgmental listener would be better for everybody rather than feeling like people are to blame for their own situation. I feel like that is so incomprehensible to me that people have a hard time looking at the systemic inequities or social determinants of health Like, how can people just deny that that exists? And it's like, okay, just because you didn't encounter this problem doesn't mean other people don't encounter it. I mean, so when we're talking about chronic illness, I just constantly come back to my own sleep disorder and how when I have my own practice, I started seeing patients at 10:30 in the morning because that was the best for me because I have a really hard time in the morning. And you know, when I had a job and had to be there at 8 o'clock, You know, I either was or I wasn't, but if I'm going to be seeing patients in my own private practice, I'm not scheduling someone for a time that I'm not 100% sure I'm going to be at my best. And so I would get to work at 10 o'clock in the morning, and if someone was going to judge that, be my guest. Like, I just, I know what's best for me, and I feel like that's where it becomes very easy for other people to make these kind of judgments, and we do it to ourselves too. But if we could all just recognize that everyone is mostly doing their best, trying, then I think it would be a lot easier for us to find the path that works for us because we wouldn't be getting so much pressure from outside people. And I mean, that was a long answer to your question, but I feel like this judgmental idea of like, I am a human, so therefore I know what it must be like for every other human to exist and if I make this choice, then everyone else could be making this choice. It's just such a misunderstanding of the diversity of human experience.

So true. And I think to bring it kind of circle back around, it's what actually makes our all lived different experiences invisible. Because if we don't acknowledge that there's all that nuance and difference and our bodies are different then our experiences are all just one label. Like, it's just that label we experience, right? And it's easy.

Yes. And I want to be very specific here and call out one specific situation in the world, which is weight. It is so accepted in the world to judge people based on their weight, to assume that if someone is bigger than you think they should be, that it must be because they're doing something wrong, they're eating wrong, they're not exercising enough, those kind of things. That is completely BS. And it's like I said, you know, when you're a dietitian and you sit and you hear what people are really eating and what people are really doing, you realize there are so many other factors involved. It is not just about eat less and exercise more. I mean, that is such a falsehood. And I feel like if we could take one thing out of society, it would be the idea that your body size is a direct function of what you eat. That doesn't take into account hormones. It doesn't take into account neurochemicals. It doesn't take into account chronic illness. There's a million things it doesn't take into account. And that's why you cannot look at someone and know what they're eating. And it's— it causes so much harm when medical providers look at someone and say in their mind, this person's too big, therefore they eat too much. So what comes out of their mouth is you need to eat less. And you have no idea. That person could be eating almost nothing because we just make up in our head if they were eating the right amount, their body would be the finger quotes, right size. And it's not how it works at all.

I personally, I can agree with you, Jessica. I have personally experienced that myself. There was a time in my journey where I was like eating one meal sort of a day and drinking water barely because I was in so much pain. And every time a doctor would tell me that I needed to stop eating as much, I would be like, I'm not eating. Like, like I'm not eating because it hurts. So I don't know what's— you cannot tell me.

What are you talking about? Like, you know, you're not listening to me. Yeah.

Yeah. So I definitely think I agree with you. I think in general, we— I mean, BMI, all these things we hear from doctors, it's all very skewed. It's all off. If someone's listening to this and they are having themselves a relationship with food that they want to improve, they want to have a better relationship with food in general, what are some things— one, what are some thoughts that might be like, hey, maybe, maybe I do have a thing with food, or maybe I don't? Like, what are some things for them to think about, and what are some signs that would alert them to be like, I, I, this is maybe an area I need to focus a little bit on differently?

I would say two things: regret and shame. If you feel ashamed of what you eat, if you're eating differently when you're with people versus alone, that is a clue that something is amiss because we should not be carrying so much shame about what we eat. And so the things you eat in the middle of the night, if you wouldn't eat that in broad daylight on a park bench, there's something going on there. The other thing is regret. If you feel like, why did I eat that? Or why didn't I eat that? If you're walking around kind overthinking, rethinking your food choices, then something is going on there. It's, it's much more of a thought process. Note, I did not say if your weight is going up, if your weight is going down. I mean, those can be signs, but they can also be signs of something totally different. The way you feel about your eating, to me, is the most significant thing that sort of points to maybe I want to talk to someone about this, or maybe I want to read a book about this, because the skills you're bringing to the table, which is information you receive from the people who, who raised you and the, your heritage, your ancestry, all impacts the way you eat. So instead of sort of buying the lie that everything I eat is my own fault, we need to really open our minds and think, if I'm not feeling good about what I eat, then like, if I'm eating things that I know are going to make me feel bad, or if I'm scared to eat, like you were describing, that's the issue, not the weight issue, not the calorie issue. It's the fact that you're a human being who is basically made out of the molecules of food that you have eaten previously, and yet you're afraid to eat the same molecules that are going to help you heal. That's the problem, not the weight. Not at all.

Such a shame and regret. I mean, that's— unfortunately, I feel like those two things are like in every aspect of your life that you think you're having issues with. Outside of food. Like, that's a, that's a core thing to think about, to consider. Yeah.

Well, and, and honestly, I mean, shame— I'm gonna get really like off track here for a minute, but that is a tool of the patriarchy, right? Like, making you feel like something is your fault, right? That's, that's something that holds people down. Look what you made me do. I mean, even a lot of organized religion and, and I told you I'm Jewish. There's plenty of shame in Judaism. So, right. It's just, some of these things are survival instincts, I think, but they're the things that are sort of hurting us from the inside. And I, I feel like shame has no place in eating. Regret. I'm fine with regret. If you regret what you ate, that's fine. If you don't like it or it hurt you, don't eat it again. But if you do eat it again, that's when there's something else going on, right? We think of it as like this totally conscious control. I eat, I make my own food choices. I choose what I buy. I choose what I eat. But it's not so cut and dry. There's a whole iceberg of emotions driving what we eat and past experiences and past traumatic experiences and past food insecurity and past chronic stress and current chronic stress. That affects our hormones and chemicals. I mean, stress saps out your good brain chemistry, and the things that fix your brain chemistry are, you know, sex, drugs, alcohol, food, right? So sometimes we're using food as medication, and it's not necessarily a conscious choice. It's something you're doing in order to really help yourself feel better. And not eating counts too. That changes your brain chemistry too. So these are all things that we do with good reason. So in other words, if you are the owner of your own company and/or the CEO of your family or whatever the case may be, and you are succeeding in life, and yet you find yourself doing something with your eating that sort of perplexes you, it's not because you're stupid, it's not because you're incompetent, it's because there's something bound up in that that is not conscious.

And I know you do a lot of, like, you do a lot of workshops and trainings and conversations on this as a, as a collective, like within a space of people who have the label, I have this type of eating disorder, I have this type of eating disorder. And you brought— you bring around the fact of like, okay, can we remove— can we get out of the label first? And like, look at the whole picture. And if someone's listening to this, who has the labels, yeah, they've gone to the doctor, they have the labels, and they're hearing this conversation and they're listening, what is a message for them that you want them to walk away with that maybe they haven't heard quite yet because they haven't been in those rooms where you're speaking and sharing about this holistic point of view?

This is gonna sound so not like a good thing, but it is a good thing. Um, a lot of times people have this idea that when you have been labeled with an eating disorder, that your goal is that you're supposed to leave it behind, you're supposed to get cured from it. And I think there probably are some people who have that kind of an eating disorder, and that's okay. I don't want to take that away from them. But for others who think, that just doesn't fit me, like, it never seems to completely go away, my message is, that's okay. Your goal is to keep it at the thought level. Your goal is not to never have a thought about, maybe I don't want to eat that, or maybe I feel regret that I ate that. Those thoughts are normal. It's what you then do next that is sort of, to me, the significant piece, right? If I feel like I regret something and then I feel like I really want to go throw it up and I think, oh, you know what? That's not a healthy choice. I'm going to take a walk instead, or I'm going to call a friend, or I'm going to lay down. It's the choice that you make that I feel like is, is what's important, not the fact that you were tempted. Or for me, sometimes my body dysmorphia interferes and I hate every clothes in my, in my closet. Right. And so if I just don't go do something social because I can't find something that I want to wear, that I feel like is letting it win. But if I just put something on and I think, I don't know if I feel good in this, but I just need to get out of the house. Right. Maybe it's like a bathing suit skirt with a t-shirt on over it, whatever. It got me out of the house, right? So it's that kind of thing. It's not feeling like if you struggle that you're failing. It's that struggle is real. Struggle and try to keep pressing onward. And even if you have a lapse, like, don't let it convince you that you're not moving forward. I think that was maybe not as concise as I could have said it. But the idea is, I feel like there are people that will cheerlead you and say like, you're gonna get better, you're gonna beat this. And in some ways, I think eating disorders are so complex that it's not something you're ever gonna beat. In other words, it might be in your rearview mirror, you know, in the sense that it's not an everyday dilemma, but under stress, they can flare up. So don't be so mean to yourself. If, you know, you're having some really good days, and then you have kind of a bad-ish day, or whatever you would define as a bad day, Okay, so you struggle. That's real life. And try not to be so hard on yourself and sort of think of it as like the zero tolerance policy. That's just not how chronic illness works.

Yeah, I mean, we could take that advice for every, you know, chronic illness really, is that there isn't— I think a lot of us, I know when we first get diagnosed or something, dealing with something, I know for me personally, my mindset is like, oh, I needed I need to eradicate it. I need to get over it. Right. And then the 20-plus years I've been dealing with it, it's like, oh no, we, we just going to be friends over here. I'm going to see you. I'm going to acknowledge that you happening and we going to keep going our merry own way. We're going to have some bad days. We're going to have some ups and downs. And that's what I hear that you're saying is like, instead of trying to feel like you're fixing yourself, it's just like becoming more aware of yourself and giving yourself that permission to lean into, you know, "I'm growing, I'm learning about this, and I'm trying to feel better, but it doesn't mean I'm, like, going to be perfect." Yes.

Which is, you know, again, talking about that black and white mindset— not race black and white, I'm talking about, like, the colors, right? Like black or white.

Yes, yes.

But that mindset, like, the idea of, like, "If I am not the perfect eater, then somehow I am a failure." there is no perfect eating. There's just choices that you make and then they lead to more choices. And sometimes you may even eat something that maybe contained something that you didn't realize it contained. And you just think, I should have known, I should have asked, I should have whatever. And it's like, oh my gosh, there is so much out there in the world. If you are sort of doing the part that you can do, I mean, that's all we should expect of people, right? It's not perfection, but I feel like we are our own toughest critics. A lot of the time.

Such a good point that applies in every angle of your life, like what you eat, what you wear, what people you hang around with, what business decisions you make, what marketing thing you decide you're going to do, what sales offer you're going to make. It is— you're going to have a plan and you're going to have a strategy and you're going to do your best. And sometimes there are going to be things, variables that you had no clue was coming into that room or coming into that part of the decision.

I always say that because I also have anxiety, and the things that I worry about are never the things that are going to happen. Like, I never, I never had the idea that we're gonna have like a global pandemic that's gonna shut down the speaking engagements for 2 years. Like, I worried about much more mundane things, right, that have never come true.

So yeah, yeah, it's such a funny point. It's legit real. Like, yeah, we are thinking about all these things and I was like, no, no, worse things have happened, but not those little tiny things. And sometimes they aren't tiny to us. They are not tiny to us, the things that we dream up or we think up and, you know, but they are, they are real to us. I think that's the part of just realizing that we're growing through that too, through the anxiety, through the shifts and change, and that we are human. I think this is the part that I feel like so many of us is when we go to try to do something, when we're healing— I, as much as I love the word healing, I feel, to your point, marketing has made it seem like it's a one-and-done thing. Like, you are healed. Like, you know, in the Bible, Jesus healed people, and so you're healed. Like, that's the definition. But I always tell people, like, yet they died again, because that was for a moment of time. It wasn't for ever. So like in the context, that was more of a context conversation. So I think people don't realize that, especially right now, as imperfect and just human we are, we are all on this journey of healing. And it doesn't mean that it's like a one and done station. Like you go to the gas station and you just forever gassed up or always have electric. Like we're moving through it, right? Like there's—

so I have this thought I have to share. It's my toxic trait, which is saying like, it's not that bad, right? So I am getting over a broken ankle, I have this sleep disorder, I have anxiety, I get migraines. Like, I could go on this whole long list, and all my brain says is, but you don't have cancer, so you really have nothing to complain about. And it's like, oh my God, by that logic, then no one in the world has anything to complain about except the one person who has the most terrible thing. Right? And it's like, yes, there is a part of me that feels like, okay, I'm walking in a boot, my ankle is healing. Like, yes, it's not like the end of whatever my life, you know, la la la. But like, is it okay for me just to be like, wow, life is easier when I don't have a broken ankle? Like, can I just let myself complain a little bit, get a little bit of sympathy, and move on instead of just saying I have to be like little Mary Sunshine all the time because other people have it Exactly, exactly, exactly. We—

exactly. It's, it's okay to have a really bad day. It's okay to say something sucks. It's okay to say, this right here is the worst day of my life, even though I know there are worse things happening in the world. Like, it is okay.

Like, this is the thing I have to deal with today.

Yes. And I think it's— I think it comes— I think social media makes this makes this conversation we're having here about it's okay to have whatever day you're having challenging. At the time of us recording this on June 23rd, there is a lot of crap happening in the world right now.

Oh my God. Yes.

So much stuff. Right. And we can all start feeling like, well, we should be this, this, this, because all of these things. And it's just like, we can't all be experiencing and feeling the same thing. Having to dismiss what's happening in our own world, in our own body, just because the world has the world things going on. There's always world things going on. Right. And I think it's important to be okay with acknowledging what's happening in the world and still be okay with acknowledging that my little battle over here in my little corner of the world is my battle and it is difficult and it's okay for me to say that. And it's okay for me to have that as part of my life, and it doesn't make me a bad person.

No, I think I have to hear that over and over and over again, and I think it's just a defense mechanism, right? Minimizing what's going on with me, you know, is as a way to not feel how much it hurts to be me sometimes.

You know, it's a good point. Such a good point. Not feeling, which might mean we're eating. Might mean we're not eating.

I mean, no one thinks of food as a mood-altering chemical, but it absolutely is.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's so many things about food in, in general. I think who you're around, what you do, what you're actually working— like, how you work.

What about just the food that's available in your area? I mean, how do you think food gets to you? Unless you grow all your own food, you're at the mercy of the people who do grow the food. And God bless them for doing it because I know that is not an easy way to make a living.

Look, I'm trying to keep basil alive and it's a problem.

I'm trying to grow cherry tomatoes and there's a bunny that eats them before I get to them. And I'm not going to do anything to hurt the bunny. The bunny can have my tomatoes. It's okay. So I buy my tomatoes at the store even though I have tomato plants right out here. From feeding a bunny.

Yeah, yeah. So what is a message you want someone to walk away with? We've talked a lot about it. We talked a lot— I can't say this— we talked about a lot of different things in this conversation. We talked about how growing a business and making those decisions about taking care of others and taking care of yourself, what that could look like. We talked about how you don't need to have a label to have something going on with food, your relationship with food could be positive or negative. It doesn't matter. If you do have a label, you're not trying to fix you, you're trying to embrace you.

Yes, I love that.

Right, right. And so if someone's listening to this now that's like, okay, Jessica and Nikita, what do I do if I do think I literally do have a bigger problem than I'm ready to admit to? And who and where do I go for support?

So I would say a book is actually maybe one of the best places to go when you're not quite ready to talk to a person yet, is to— and the ones I can recommend, Intuitive Eating is a great book. Nourish is a great book. Maybe I could give you some book ideas and you could put them in the show notes.

I'll put them in the show notes.

Yeah, because I feel like what a book does is it gives you sort of a vocabulary. It opens your understanding of an issue. Not, not every nutrition book is going to be so great. There's plenty that I would not suggest. Anything that has diet in the title, do not. That's not going to help yourself. But some of the books that really are more about the thought process of eating and how you got here— I have a workbook called Healing Your Inner Eater, and I can give the Bullious podcast for a discount code, and that would bring the cost down for anyone listening And that's something where you can start to look at kind of your own eating thoughts and behaviors. The goal being, once you sort of either are doing a workbook or are reading a book and you're starting to sort of take notes or just put sticky notes or notes in your phone or whatever of the things where you're like, yes, that, that, that describes me, that will give you better words when you go to see a professional. So in other words, let's just relive that example of when you went to the doctor and they were like, you need to eat less. If you had had the words to say, "Look, I was reading this book and it says if you're eating less than blank calories a day, you are not eating enough. According to this book, I am not eating enough." You see what I'm saying? It sort of, it gives you some oomph behind your words that can help convey what you're trying to get across to your medical professional. And that's where you, you, if you need to get your medical professional to recommend you to a counselor or recommend you to a dietitian, you don't always need that. But you're trying to come up with the way to describe what your experience is. You know what it is, it's in your mind, but you want to try to find a way to communicate it to someone else so that they can help you sort through it. And that's where the shame comes into play, is if you feel ashamed of what you're doing, then there's no way you can talk about it with someone else who can give you a different perspective.

Yeah, such a powerful thing. I think the point too you're saying is that in order— a way to overcome shame is to educate yourself around what you might be feeling, bring awareness to like, you're not alone. You're not like, this isn't crazy.

Right, they wrote a whole book about it. How can you be the only person that's experiencing that? Yeah.

Right. So powerful. We'll have those resources for you guys in the show notes for sure. But thank you. This was a really fascinating conversation. I personally feel like me and food have always had a complicated relationship, multiply Mostly since just living with chronic illness, I grew up myself personally being like allergic to certain things. And so there's a lot of nuance with that. And as I grow, the more I become more aware and read books and listen to podcasts and things like that has helped me a lot around becoming better with my relationship with food and when I eat and how I eat. So I encourage everyone to do that, and that's why I'm excited that we have this episode on the show. But where can we find you and what's exciting for you that's coming up?

So my, my sort of umbrella website is jessicasetnik.com and there's free resources there. And usually somewhere there's a list of upcoming events. If someone wants to maybe come to a workshop with me, I'm thinking about doing an online version of Healing Your Inner Eater. It's not planned yet. I don't have a date, but if you go to healingyourinnereater.com, there's a place, I believe, where you can sign up. I know there definitely is one at jessicasetnik.com. There's a pop-up and you can sign up to get updates on whenever the next events are happening. So I'd be happy to stay connected with someone through my email newsletter. And then you can always just reach out to me individually. Sometimes if you're looking for someone in your area, let's say you wanted to meet with an eating disorder-informed dietitian, it's hard to find the right person if you aren't connected, right? If you're not hooked in. So I wouldn't mind anyone emailing me. It's just Jessica@JessicaSetnick.com. And I, I, we haven't even talked about this here, but I run a nonprofit organization of eating disorder dietitians. And our goal is to, to make sure that everyone who wants to get help has access. We fight with insurance companies to get them to cover eating disorder care, all kinds of advocacy efforts. But one of the things that we do every single day is connect people with someone who takes their insurance and who is, you know, licensed in their state. And so I'm happy to try to help connect someone who needs it.

That is powerful and so helpful. I mean, as one who has to call a lot of doctors and finding— that is, having someone who knows somebody or in an area or has a relationship potentially is very helpful. So I'm glad. Well, definitely send me that link as well so we have that in the show notes. And I have One, one last question.

Okay, I'm ready.

As a business owner, what is something that you thought was true when you started that you no longer believe is true? Every time I ask—

really, this is really hard for me. Really hard for me. The amount of hours that you work is not directly related to the results you get. Like, I really believed growing up that like you show up at work on time and you, you know, you stay late and you, you know, blah, blah, blah, and then you're gonna get the promotions and the recognition. And I found that that was not true in the working world. And then as a private practice owner, sometimes something happens and I get an email and it's like, oh, I heard you speak 5 years ago and I want you to come speak and I want to give you $10,000. And I'm like, what? But I didn't do anything to earn that. You know what I mean? I didn't invest like 20 hours emailing strangers on LinkedIn. Like, you know, it's like, it's so much more, it's so much bigger than that. Like, doing a good job where you go, being kind to people, yes, doing, you know, some things for free. There's just so many inputs that, that lead to outputs, and it's not just like time spent equals success.

So true. I co-sign that for sure. Well, thank you so much, Jessica, for sharing your story, sharing your thoughts, opinions. You guys have to watch the video on this because—

talk all day.

Yeah, I think we could too. I would love for you guys— I need y'all to watch the video because Jessica, she's spicy.

You have a very expressive face. I have been told that before.

I, I mean, you're with, you're with your people. Oh, well, thank you so much for being here, and we can't wait to get this out to the world.

Thanks, Nikita. Thanks for everything you do. Yeah.

That's a wrap for this episode of Business with Chronic Illness.

If you would like to start and grow an online coaching business with me, head to the show notes to click a link to book a sales call and learn how to make money with chronic illness. You can also check out our website at www.craftedtothrive.com for this episode's show notes and Join our email list to get exclusive content where I coach you on how to chronically grow a profitable business while living with chronic illness.

Until next time, remember, yes, you are crafted to thrive.