In this interview‑style podcast episode, host Jason Lorber (Aplumb Consulting) talks with guest Noelle Russell about the nature of change—both personal and systemic. They each recount formative moments that sparked their activist paths: Jason recalls learning about the Holocaust in Hebrew school, which ignited his lifelong commitment to social justice, LGBTQ rights, and eventually a stint as a Vermont state legislator; Noelle describes a personal tragedy early in her career that forced her to develop crisis‑management processes she later applied professionally. The dialogue weaves in John Kotter’s eight‑step change model, emphasizing the current sense of urgency around racial equity and inclusion. They explore how mindfulness and a “disaster‑recovery” mindset can help individuals navigate personal upheaval, and critique the gap between corporate diversity intentions and measurable outcomes, arguing that diversity should be treated with the same rigor as profitability. The conversation concludes with practical details on where listeners can find the full episode (LinkedIn hashtag “Lemonade with a Plum”) and invites further engagement.
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I can— okay, let's see. Oh. Okay, now I can hear you. Was I— I've been like sitting here, I'm like, I don't know what's going on. Okay. Yes, I didn't hear a word you said, so— Oh, okay. Wonderful fans. First of all, you have great taste. Noelle is awesome. I'm Jason Lorber. I facilitate change for organizations. My company is Aplumb Consulting, and I've got a podcast Very soon we're going to show an interview that I had with Noelle Silver. Yes, the one and only Noelle Silver. God, I can't even say your name right.
It's amazing. We had so much fun. We were talking about, normally my conversations on these podcasts are all around mostly technology and futuristic, like what's my view on voice in the next 20 years or 15 years. But this was a little bit of a different conversation. We focused a little bit more on change and what happens. I know you asked me kind of a vulnerable question about something that had happened in my life, and you all will have to tune in if you want to hear a little bit more about that. But it was interesting because what I found was in that moment of very personal challenge, I actually created some processes, and this happened a long time ago, early in my career, but it was a personal kind of, I don't know, I'd even call it like a tragedy or perceived tragedy, like, oh my gosh, my life is ending. And the things that I learned about myself in that time, I ended up using in my professional career. And I felt like that was something that you kind of looked at and was like, oh, that's usually what happens. Like normally we build character in these very personal moments that end up translating to our professional career. So I thought because I have you here, I could flip the tables and make you my person. And I would love for them to have a similar experience, right? Like, I guess maybe give us your philosophy on change and kind of change management. That's ultimately what we're talking about. And maybe an example from your own life.
Sure, okay, fine, turning the tables on me. Fair play. And so when I asked Noelle, you know, what was a moment that she had to undergo change that kind of shaped her philosophy? And really, it's an opportunity to kind of present yourself and look back on your life and say, this is who I am at my core. Or what comes forward when pressed to the mat. And so for me, very early on, I found that when I was in 5th grade, I was going to a Hebrew school, a Jewish religious school, and I learned about the Holocaust. And I remember at a very young age— was that 10 years old? Hearing about this and, and just saying, why didn't anyone do anything about that? 6 million Jews were being killed, and why did no one step up?
Right, the rational questions of a child.
Right, that sometimes as adults we're like, well, there's so many reasons, so many explanations. And for me, that's when I became an activist, or realized that I was an activist. I don't know which is the case. But, and I've always been engaged as, you know, standing up for against antisemitism. And then later, as I realized that I was gay, standing up for LGBTQ rights, and then working around race and diversity, inclusion and equity. And that's continued in my professional life. And then I served as a legislator in the Vermont House of Representatives. And brought that, that need to change and not just say, like, when something bad happens to say, oh, well, that's okay. It's hardwired in me to say, no, I'm going to take a stand.
Yeah, I actually, I feel, you know, it's interesting that you said legislature because one of the things recently I've really been struggling with is like, how do you become part of systemic change? 'Cause I've now been old enough to watch these waves of activism, if you will, or of action, of being fed up, and then realizing like 15 years later where nothing has really changed and nothing fundamental has changed. People still did the same things and thought the same way, even though we went through that phase where we were really fighting. To change people's belief systems, to change people's way of thinking. So that's really cool that you went into politics, if you will, or legislation, because I do think that that's like one way of doing that, of accommodating that.
Yeah, and when I think about change, you know, I really like John Kotter as a change management expert, and he looks at 8 different stages of change. And one of the most important ones, and the first one, is creating a sense of urgency. And that's what we have now today. For some reason, after all of this activism, we're now at a spot where over the last, I don't know, 15, 20 years, maybe longer, but back since, you know, since the civil rights movement in the '60s, I feel like white people are finally waking up and realizing, wait a minute, there's some systemic change that needs to happen. And so this is our opportunity. And while this is fresh in people's minds, now the stage is set to say, okay, we have an urgency, we have a need for change. Now we need to be strategic and methodical about how we go about this.
Yeah, I agree. And I think, you know, I've been in companies that are really struggling with that change, and I've been an advocate, of course, for diversity of thought and diversity in technology. And we talk about that a lot in the podcast. So I'm excited for those of you watching to have a chance to listen to that. But I do think that, you know, I think it's important for everyone to kind of look back at their experiences and look back at like what has— what formative memories do they have that created who they are? And it doesn't necessarily mean that that's who they have to be, right? Like some of us didn't have that moment where we like something happened and we, we chose a path. Sometimes we chose a path we wish we didn't take or we wish we didn't choose, but we have a moment, which is what I've learned, is like at any, any minute you can choose a different way to think. You can evolve your thinking in the second you choose to change it.
And that's one of the things you talk about. You talk about mindfulness and just being aware of the choices that you're making. And so sometimes when we look back, we can say, oh, that's how I responded at that moment. And for some of us, we have traumatic experiences in our life that didn't go well and it holds us back.
Right.
Other times we can say, well, have there been instances when I've had to change and I did and it came out well? So that can power us and give us fuel to address more changes.
Exactly. And I just love that, like those, those patterns can even help us by giving us the ability to go, oh, I see I did that and I want to do it again. Or they can be patterns that we use to identify things that we want to change about ourselves. So I think it's, it's such an interesting area because we all go through change and we all manage change whether we want to or not, whether we do it in a way that we're proud of or not. But our conversation really gave me like a new lens to look through, like how do I How do I handle the change in my life? How do I handle when things don't go well? I think we talked about like a disaster recovery plan. Like, yeah, my family on, on these social channels are all from technology for the most part, and we understand what disaster recovery is. But how do we do that for ourselves? So, so it was really, it was awesome and a huge pleasure to talk to you. I think it was really fun.
Yes, absolutely. And one of the things that we touched on and we expanded on, but I'll tease it just a little bit. Is this idea that companies or people have positive intentions and that somehow that's enough. And there's so many companies that say, we want a diverse workforce. We want to be inclusive. And we tried, but didn't work. Oh, well, let's move on.
That's right. That's right.
But we wouldn't say that about profitability or sales.
That's it. Oh my gosh, that's right.
Yes.
I love that point you made that like it is a, like the bottom line of your business is profitability or expense management. So why wouldn't these concepts of diversity and diversity of thought around the table of building your products or deploying your products or hiring the right people, why wouldn't those have that same level of importance?
Or anytime you have a goal or an objective and you're failing at it, It doesn't mean you should just give up. You say, well, maybe I need to bring in some experts, or maybe I need to have some accountability built in, or maybe I need to think about it differently, just like you would with any other business initiative that's important. And so if you have management or an organization where it seems like they're paying lip service, you can bring that to their attention and say, is this important to us? If so, We might not know the answer, but let's find it together.
Yes. And pick some metrics and measure the thing for goodness' sake. Well, it was super fun. I know a bunch of people will probably want to check out this podcast episode. Why don't you give us a little bit of information about where they can find it and where maybe the best places to connect with you if they want to continue the conversation?
Oh, sure. Can we put like a link in at the bottom?
I'll put it in the notes or in the, it'll either be in the description or on LinkedIn, it'll be in the comments.
Okay, and so that'll be up in the next few days. And so once we have that URL, I'll share it, but it's Lemonade with a Plum. So if you go to LinkedIn and you do the hashtag Lemonade with a Plum and click on it, you'll find the amazing interview with Noelle Russell.
Yay! Well, it was awesome. Thanks so much for hopping on. And as everyone knows, my starts to these things are always a little bit rocky, but thanks everybody for staying. I appreciate all of your comments. And I really look forward to hearing what you think about this episode. And thanks Jason for having me.
