Deeper Dive on the Debt Hammer - Dave Ramsey is Wrong But its not what you think

Hello and welcome to another episode of Multifamily Strategy Live. Excited to see everyone here. If you guys have any questions, by the way, you guys can always post them in the comment section. Today we're going to be talking about a video that I posted earlier that had some mixed reviews. Some people actually hated this, some people loved it. But, um, I'm gonna do a little bit of a better job explaining what the debt hammer is because I've run the math on this like a million times. It is a superior model to the debt snowball. If you guys are unfamiliar, there's a concept that Dave Ramsey's introduced, it's called the debt snowball, and essentially You pay off as fast as you can. You set aside a budget first and you take the excess cash flow that you have in your universe, the extra income you have, and you pay off your smallest debt first. And without that debt, you now have more income. And then you pay off the next one, the next one, the next one. And you do this out of monthly payments. You set aside the fixed amount every single month and you start whittling down your debt. Now, while this is an awesome strategy and being debt-free is fantastic, There is a better way to do this in real estate. If you're introducing leverage, you do not want to snowball the debt. You do want to pay it off. And I will actually, in a safer way, faster, while holding on to more cash, I will pay off debt exactly like the debt snowball. The debt hammer works a little bit differently though. Instead of paying it off over time, you save, save, save, save, save in a side account. Ideally an interest-bearing side account. And when you have enough money sidelined to pay off one note in full, you just blow up that note. It does the same thing, but you're not reducing your monthly cash flow and you're creating a giant pool of liquidity on the side. How do we do this? Interest-only notes. A lot of people have heard an amortized note where you're paying it off over time, it's safer. You're going to pay down the note. It's going to be easier to refi. What if you took the same cash that you would be paying down and you instead put it in an interest-bearing account? Now that money is making some money, but more importantly, that money is there as an emergency fund. What if the roof goes and insurance doesn't come through? What if there's a pipe burst? I've actually had a building where pipes froze. We lost 19 of 20 units and insurance fought us on trying to cover the building. It got so bad, one of my investors actually just bought us out and sued insurance himself. While he won and made a bunch of money, that was extremely expensive. Do you know what would have been fantastic to have then? A giant pool of cash to pay for the project, then go after insurance with, you guessed it, more of that cash. Having cash and liquidity adds security to your universe. It doesn't mean it's the only reason that you should buy real estate is you have a whole bunch of liquidity. You start with the pieces you have and you build liquidity along the way. However, the fastest way to do this is to pay the least amount of your liquidity monthly out of your portfolio. On an interest-only note, that means that you're only paying the interest. You're not paying any additional, uh, paydown. Where people get burned is they blow the money on something stupid. They buy that sports car they always wanted. They buy the boat. They skip ahead and they buy the bigger house before they need it. If you take the principal and you spend the principal, that is where it becomes risky. If you sideline the principal, you say, hey, this is what I would be paying if it was amortized, let's go ahead and save it. Now, if you're doing this on one deal and you're trying to follow along, you're like, okay, I can see why this would be a little bit better, but why is this worth doing an entire live on? And why has Christian done multiple videos on this? It makes a ridiculous difference. I mean, astronomical, when you do this over 5 or 10 deals as you build a portfolio. Instead of saying, hey, Every property is paying itself down slowly over 25 or 30 years. I'm going to say every property can pool the excess cash flow. I can save, save, save, save, save at an accelerated rate and start killing one debt, then the next debt, then the next debt. Oh, something happened to my portfolio. We had a disaster. We're going to go have to use some of that cash, fix a roof, repair a building, whatever it is. I now take my liquidity, solve a problem. Oh, okay, problem solved. What now? Pay off a debt, pay off a debt, pay off a debt. If the goal is to be debt-free or to have less debt or to have more security, if all of my loans can optimize for cash flow and I can save that cash flow, I can hyper-amortize, like just super fast, pay off a note and then pay off the next note and pay off the next note, pay off the next note. If you put it on a drip system, if you put them on that, hey, pay off your loan over 30 years, or put it on a 15-year year AM, your deals will pay themselves off over a 15-year AM. You will have the minimum amount of liquidity. You will have the least leverage, which actually means more risk. That means you have more actual cash in the deal if something goes wrong. The risk goes off the lender, goes on to you as you pay down the loan. The lowest risk you'll ever have is debt-free. So let's skip to that part. Take all of the loans, pay off the one that has the quickest balloon or the highest interest, however you want to do it mathematically. But if you can rapidly kill one loan, then the next loan, the next you're taking risk off the table. It is worth mentioning you're also adding security because assets can be re-levered. Now, the goal is to pay off the debt, but if you have a bunch of free and clear properties, they are their own security fund. You can always go out and get a loan against a free and clear property and recycle that capital. I'm not saying just lever to the moon, and that's not the strategy here. This is saying what is the safest way to use leverage. Buy a property where it cash flows day one and pays you. In fact, do that 10, 20, 30 times over. Take all the money and use it to pay off your debt. We call this the debt hammer because we are hammering one debt at a time. The analogy that I like to use is, okay, I don't love debt, but I do love making a lot of money. Can't make a lot of money because the government keeps appreciating everything all the time. They're coming in and we just have this crazy appreciation because we're printing, printing, printing, printing, printing, printing, printing through all of our problems. We've done this for a long long time, I want to be in an asset that is levered, that benefits from that appreciation, where I'm actually making money off the just organic growth of the economy and the need for housing, and I'm getting paid to do it through cash flow. If I am able to eventually build so much cash flow that it kills all that debt, isn't that better than being debt-free and just never using debt? I can have hundreds, even thousands of rental units. Depends on your goals. And I can pay them all off and have no debt, or I could work a 9 to 5 for 60 years and save, save, save, save, save, buy a few rental properties and do it the Dave Ramsey method. This is a way where you build income by leverage. You buy debt that pays you to own it, not the other way around. You're not buying cash flow negative deals hoping for appreciation. You buy based on cash flow for the future appreciation. You get paid to wait. And oh, since you're getting paid from a whole bunch of properties, use that to pay off that debt. You end up with the same amount of debt— none— but a ton of properties income. It's an awesome strategy. Some people disagreed with the math behind this, so I just wanted to point out, like, seriously run scenarios on this. Try to amortize 10 deals at the same time and pay it off faster or more securely than sidelining it in an interest-bearing account. Let's say that we can wherever we put this, we'll say less than market return. Say you can place it at 4%. If you put all the cash flow that you would have paid down your loans into an account that's yielding 4% and you use it to pay off one loan at a time, increasing your cash flow every single time you pay off a loan, you will pay off things faster while holding more cash. Control your money. Interest only is a safer and superior model if you're going to do more than one deal. That is a fact. Now I want to do a deeper dive on this because the comment section on YouTube was wild last time. I did a 7-minute video on this and people were like, this is stupid. So you're saying lever to the moon? And I was like, I never said anything about how much leverage you should have. Now I do want to lever as much as I can while we still cash flow with a healthy margin. If I buy a deal and say the cash-on-cash return 10%, I put in $100,000 and it brings back $10,000 after all expenses are paid every year. Awesome. $10,000 cash flow. Fantastic. Love the deal. That's perfect. I'm making money on my money. I'm safe. That's a good margin. The highest leverage point I can possibly hit to get that return is how much I want to lever. I'm getting paid to wait. I have the minimum amount of money in a deal to secure a new income stream, and then I'll do that on repeat again and again and again and again. And we just infinitely stack this. It's a strategy that works in any market, anywhere, anytime. Now, if anyone has questions, you can always post in the chat. If not, nice thing about these lives is I get to go at my own pace. So if you guys have questions, post in the chat. If not, we can call this a short live and a good clarification to our last deal. Updates from the field, by the way, a 76-unit is still in progress. We got that thing down to $6.4 million. So look forward to seeing more on that 76-unit that I shared last week. We are going to do our inspections on Tuesday next week, so I will show you guys some footage from that across all social media platforms. And yeah, that's going to be the biggest one we've done. 13-acre campus. It's 76 units made almost entirely of fourplexes. It is just an entire neighborhood that we are purchasing. Two stories, garages, up to four-bed units. Coolest deal we've ever done. Uh, very, very excited for that. Also working on a project in Moses Lake. Yep, I'm still in Washington, uh, doing projects. Uh, we are going to be right now under contract to buy a 9-unit with 3 retail spaces that shares a parking lot with my 5-plex that has a couple retail spaces. That portfolio is going to be expanding. I am really, really looking forward to that project. We are taking a junky building, we're supporting it with the cash flow of the other 2 buildings which are now stabilized And we're going to renovate a brand new building out of an LLC that has been around for a few years. This is going to be a cool acquisition where we've built enough cash flow. We can now afford to redevelop. We're going to empty the building ground up, new plumbing, new everything, new plumbing, new electric, new roof, new interiors, the whole nine yards. We're going to redo a building in downtown core of Freda, which is a small little market, but it's on the corner right next to city hall. Fixing a building that needs to be fixed, improving the value of my other buildings. We're doing some fun projects, so stay tuned for those. In the question section, Oscar has a couple of questions, so I will answer those. Uh, you explain why you should not pay the loans off over time. Traditionally on amortized note, you would pay each off over time, keeping, uh, a level that actually reduces your risk. Interest only, how? So interest only, we're still saving the money. I'm not spending all the money. It's going into account, but I control it. Not the bank. If I need the money for, say, a capital expenditure on the property, I can reinvest back into the property instead of losing the property, which would reduce my risk. In addition, by sidelining the income from multiple properties, I have one pool where I can pay off the loan with either the shortest balloon or the highest interest or finish the riskiest project. By controlling the money instead of spreading it evenly over all properties over time, by being able to focus it on the most urgent and important problem and save liquidity, you are reducing risk. You lose when you buy the boat, the car, the house, the plane, the whatever it is that you want to spend the principal on. You cannot spend the principal, but if you sideline the principal as opposed to just park it back in the property, you are actually increasing your risk as compared to just having a whole bunch of cash. When you get an owner-financed deal, what is typically the time frame you want to negotiate a favorable turn? I want to finance 10, 20 years. Is that realistic? Um, I have 10 and 20-year seller finance notes. I have a lot of 15s. They're very common. I also have a good deal that are 5 years. Seller financing, you get what you negotiate. It has to match what the seller's trying to do. 5 years is very, very common. 10 years, not uncommon at all. Any more than 10 years, most sellers don't want to carry a note that long. What I often have is 5 years with an option to extend as long as certain benchmarks have been hit. And occasionally there's a renegotiation period that's allowed within certain parameters. At the end of 5 years. So the answer is you get what you negotiate, but long-term debt is going to be 7 to 10 years or more. Question from Julie: I wish you'd do clashes, um, at the, uh, Wynn's Casino in Snohomish County. That would be fun. I would, uh, I would love to do more. I'll actually be doing more live events, but now that I'm in Dallas, I'm not in Snohomish County as I do have one of our closest friends lives up in Lake Stevens, Washington, which is in Snohomish. So I'm up there on occasion. But if you have an event that I need to be speaking at up there, go ahead and let me know. I am— I always love coming up and I'm in Washington still frequently on some of my projects. I will be in Washington pretty much every other month. So I'm at least there sometime. I'm always happy to be in Snohomish. Let me know if there's somewhere I need to be speaking. How many years do you need to pay back your partners? Uh, that's again, that's another deal-dependent question. How long does it take to pay back the partners? It depends on the project. Most of my projects, it's going to be in between years 2 and 5. I don't do a lot of projects that take more than that because real estate, you need to budget up front for what the project is you're doing, and then you need to actually hit the roadblocks. So If I'm coming in and say my time zone is, or my timeframe live, I can't go back and edit that. But if my timeframe on a project is like, hey, I think it's going to take a year to get through all of our renovations, another year to get through our stabilization, we're probably looking at a refi in year 3, in which case that's going to be the part where I pay back the investors. Some projects, like I have a light tech deal where we're not exiting the project, like we're under a rent restriction. Until year 4. In year 5, we'll exit that program, and then there's a 3-year ramp-up of rents. So I'm looking at that project, it's probably going to be around year 7, but the return is going to be insane. So it's project dependent, but you want to line it up with when you project doing your project and then add some extra time for contingencies. So if I have a 1-year project, I probably want to give myself at least 3 years to buy them out. And on a 3-year project, I probably want to give myself at least 5 years just to be safe.. And so I'll always write that, but often I'm returning capital to investors within the first year. It's never projected. Usually happens. When doing the BRRRR method, what's the typical amount of time to do a cash-out refi? Within a 7 to 10-year period. I don't like relevering properties again and again and again. You should on a BRRRR, which is not the only way to do real estate, not even close. A lot of my deals aren't BRRRRs. On a BRRRR where we're pulling out all or more than all of the original capital is usually done in year 2 or 3 on a value-add project. And then I keep that debt long-term, so I will not pull money out of it ever again. I will pay off that property before I pull out the money again. I— my goal is not just to re-lever everything that I have. I do actually want to do the strategy. I plan on being debt-free. This is part of how I do it. But to be clear, you do want to actually, if the goal is to return capital, so say you got investors in, you're returning capital in 5 years, I would come in, buy the deal. I would do the BRRRR. I'd find that debt product. Then I would start the debt hammer. Your 4 phases are buy, build, that's the same, sorry. It's build, stabilize, optimize, pay off the debt. So build phase, buy, buy, buy, buy, buy until you get your cash flow goal. Stabilize, make sure that you're fully occupied or at least, you know, 95% occupied, 95% to market rent. Optimize is where we're adding units where we need to. Maybe we're doing a larger renovation project. We're doing the things that maximize the rent that we could be getting on this beyond what we bought. And then once we've maximized that income, we're paying off the debt. So your BRRRR would happen first, and then that debt product ideally be the one that you pay off instead of refinancing. Manuel says, do you always try to go for interest only? Yes, I do. In fact, I have one loan where I pay less than the interest. It's on a reverse AM for 2 years to preserve cash flow while I get through the project. You can only do that if you went on price by a lot because that extra principal is added back to the value of the note. It's essentially adding $50,000 to my price. In exchange, I was able to cash flow a deal. That did not cash flow even on interest only, but we bought for an amazing price. We've increased rent on that property, by the way, by about $5,000 a month. It cash flows today closer to $9,000 a month. So I will always go for interest only as a standard because it's better than amortized. I have even done lower payments than interest only, though that's a very rare occasion for a very specific deal. Cody says you're going to take your annual debt payments divided by your loan amount. Uh, what is your loan amount? The owner finance debt or the owner finance debt and the loan from equity partners too? I don't— so there is no loan from an equity partner. They're a partner. They have equity. If they're loaning to you, that's just debt, in which case you would take the owner finance and the second position debt on the property. On an equity partner, they're going to be tied to the equity of the deal. So you're— when I'm analyzing the deal, I'm going to look at the deal based on the annual debt payments divided by loan amount. That'll be our loan factor rate. Then the partners would look at, okay, how are we distributing the remaining funds, which would be in a bucket of its own. Is it realistic expectation— is it a realistic expectation to do 2 cash-out refis within 6-7 years? Period. Use one of the cash-out refis to pay back your invest— your equity partners. Um, yeah, you absolutely can. I don't know why you would do the second one then though. If you're already cash flowing, you have a debt product that you like, I wouldn't do another cash-out refi. I, I can't think of a reason I'd want to do a cash-out refi. I wouldn't want to re-lever something that's already paying me where I've already bought out the partners. Uh, now you can absolutely do a refinance if rates drop. You can do a refinance and do a lower rate. But I find that the practice of just relevering properties, I understand, like you pull in the cash and you use it to buy another deal. Like, I get it. By the time you're hitting year 6 or 7, if you're buying rentals, you probably don't need the money from that deal. This is what I found that happened in my portfolio. I started by buying, you know, I bought the 38, then I bought a 6, 7, 12, a 10, another 12. I bought all these mid-sized properties. The deals that I'm buying now, if I did a cash-out refi on those, it still wouldn't be enough for the down payments for the deals that I'm buying today. We just do larger projects. I will hit a point where my portfolio is as large as it needs to be, and I just don't need to go through the headache. I love buying real estate, by the way, but I don't need to go through the headache of like find a deal, do the due diligence, walk the property, manage the tenants. There's going to be a point where I've bought the real estate that I want to buy, as boring as that's going to be. I want to see what happens to the YouTube channel when you do that too. I'm curious if everyone's just like, okay, he's done buying. We lost interest. Um, don't worry, that won't be for a long time. But there's probably a point where it's like, hey, pulling all the money back out of these properties lowers the cash flow. I like having a lot of cash flow. I'd rather just wait for the cash flow to come in, save up, and buy the next deal. Um, I don't plan on doing cash-out refis to pay myself. I'm all about, you know, paying investors and getting a great return. But I don't think there's going to be a lot of second refis in my portfolio. If that's something that you want to do, Yeah, 6, 7 years is a great period to do that. Emmanuel asked, uh, thoughts on living in one of the units of a multi-family purchase. If you have a bank loan, they're likely going to actually have you sign on anything 5 units and up commercial that you're not going to live there. I've never done that, but I've— I have heard of a lot of investors who have. You're not supposed to. On a technical level, it's bank fraud, but you're on the like super, super light gray area. Of the, uh, of the black and white spectrum. You can, you can house hack a multifamily. Cody house hacked the Robin Hood Village Resort for about 6 months. You can live on your multifamily purchases as long as you can do it ethically. And if you have seller finance, then I've never seen a clause in there that says you can't live in the building. It's totally fine. So, uh, general thoughts on living in a multifamily purchase: it's a house hack. Treat it like a house hack. It could be a great strategy for you. There's some apartment buildings like the 76 that we're buying or the 44 that we just bought. They are unbelievably nice units. We're talking like 1,000 square feet, 3 up to 4 bedroom units, 2 stories. They have a garage. There's a swimming pool, a gym. Why not live there? You would be paid. So if you moved into like, say you bought the 76 unit that I'm closing on and you moved into it, you're going to cash flow I have to look at the numbers again. Day 1, it's going to be like $10,000 a month, but you're going to come in, you're going to be paid $10,000 a month, maybe a little bit more than that. I have to go look at my, my calculator again. You would be paid to live there about $10,000 a month day 1. It becomes astronomically, unbelievably higher as we run this property, but day 1 you make a lot of money. Like, you get paid $120,000 a year to live at a place that has a gym, a pool, 2-story, your own garage. Like, that beats renting. You should do that deal. If you're like, hey, I live in an apartment right now, you can probably buy a nicer apartment and get paid to own it. It's an awesome house hack. I, I do— on a— on face value, I like it. Now for me, my goal is to build my own house and not share a wall with my tenants. And so since that was my original goal, I wouldn't do it. Zero asked, uh, when do you normally livestream so I can write it on my calendar? I normally go live at 5. I had to pick up my parents from the airport today. They're visiting my newborn son. Well, not newborn anymore, he's 4 months old, but my little son is visiting his grandparents. I was a little bit late launching today, but I'm close to the usual time. We launch at 5., Central every Wednesday. Also, title has a typo. That is okay, it's live. I can always hop back and change it on the, uh, on the published version. But thank you for that, I appreciate that. I will check that out, uh, a little bit. Thoughts of leaving a demanding full-time job, uh, to work part-time and focus more on multifamily acquisitions? It's what I did. I don't know that I recommend it. Depends on what you make and how comfortable you are. I had a very high risk tolerance. It was just my wife and I, and we decided our dreams are so important to us that we're okay risking the house. And so for me, I was like, okay, I left my job completely and went full-time into real estate way before I could afford to do so. And it worked. That doesn't mean that that's my advice to everyone. I think for most people, work your job till it's comfortable leaving. If you're making more than enough or you've replaced your salary completely, go ahead and leave the job. But if you have a demanding job that you hate, go find something else to do. Uh, your time on Earth is limited. You never know when you're gonna die. I don't like the idea of like, hey, I'm just slaving away for money and I hate it. Um, if you hate your job and it's demanding, work the part-time job. If you have a demanding job, real estate doesn't take that much time to buy. So I would— I'd just say do both. Keep the— keep the job for a second if you can stand it, and if you can't stand it, leave. Zero, you can ask as many questions as you want. I do have to go in 15 minutes though because I am hosting a live webinar, which you guys are all invited to. Um, I have a link below in the description if you're watching this on YouTube. I know I'm streaming a few different places, but, uh, link below if you guys have not seen the webinar. It is similar to the last few, uh, but I, I always am adding a few new things. We're talking about how we're finding deals, funding deals, a Section 8 strategy that we make. Last few years we've made over $2 million a year on this Section 8 strategy. I'm showing all of that on this webinar. It's an hour Last time I ran about an hour 15 minutes, so somewhere around there, hour to an hour 30. Uh, do you guys have time after this? Uh, would love to see you over there. Link below. What's a quick and dirty example, uh, deal structure with an equity partner? There's so many. Um, I'll give you two though. I'll give you like either side of it. High cash flow deal, cash on cash return is like 17% cash on cash. I offer a 10% preferred return to the investor. So whatever money they brought in the deal, let's just say They brought $200,000 down on a deal that was $1 million. They brought 20% down. So they get paid $20,000 a year on a preferred return. And then we split in proportion to our equity, the remaining cash flow, say 50/50. So 17%, I get 3.5% cash flow. They get a 13.5% return. They are over the moon. They have an amazing cash flow. I spent $0 and make 3.5% on their money. On a leveraged deal plus the equity growth, and I have an option to buy them out at the refinance. At what time? I'll get 100% of cash flow because I bought them out. That would be a pretty good structure if I have a deal that has a bunch of upside, but it's not cash flowing that strong day one. Say cash flow is only 5%, it's cash flowing, but it's pretty weak. I'm not paying them a 10% return out of 5% because now I'm back to negative. I'm not going to pay them to do the deal because I've been doing a lot of work and I found the deal and I'm I gotta get paid. So how do I make money? We're gonna split the cash flow evenly or in proportion or equity throughout the deal, but there's a ton of room for rent growth, and this will be cash flowing a lot in the future. It will also be worth much more when it's cash flowing more. We'll do a cash-out refi, and out of that refi, I will double their money in the next 5 years. That's not an uncommon structure for me, is, hey, uh, you put in $200,000 now, we're going to get this thing worth I've bought plenty of deals like this. You buy it for a million, but in 5 years it'll be worth $2 million because we're going to do this, this, this, and this, and we're going to increase rent to X. If you have a feasible conservative way to make $1 million on the deal and they put in 2, you can easily pay them 4 and you still make $600,000. Good deal, different structure. Those are a couple, obviously very, very simple. A lot of deals fall somewhere between that where you're sharing some cash flow and you're selling, sharing some of the upside, but it'll be somewhere in there. Is creative finance only in Canada? Um, I had to move. Yes, they call it vendor financing up there. Actually, most of the world calls it vendor financing, but it's the same thing. Um, it is actually quite common in Canada because you guys have, uh, actually a little bit more difficult banking system and less long-term debt options to buy properties. So owner financing is slightly more common in Canada Can't say I'm a huge fan of investing in Canada, but it does work the same way up there. And there are some great investment markets in Canada as well. Uh, they're just a little bit fewer and farther between, uh, with the current economy up there. Self-storage versus multifamily for starting, which one is the most necessary? There's a reason I call this multifamily strategy, by the way. Um, self-storage has done well for a long time. It's also very competitive. A lot of people want to be in it. It's relatively easy to manage, even compared to multifamily. I do think people need housing even more than they need their stuff. And don't get me wrong, people love to hoard stuff and they will overpay for self-storage all day long. At the end of the day, in a major economic pullback, I just truly believe that people will, especially for entry-level housing, I would buy self-storage over Class A real estate. It needs to be solving a real problem. So even my Class A properties, they're all on LIHTC or Section 8. They're great properties, but they are subsidized. They are entry-level housing. They're just really nice. I would not do luxury housing or resorts or any of that stuff over self-storage. Give me more stable. But for stability, multifamily is going to consistently be something that is needed. Just period. That's a fact. What's the 97 product you guys are selling? Oh, oh, oh, okay. Uh, sorry, I have, I try to keep everything that I do very, very simple. I put together, so I have multifamily strategy. There's a mentorship and it's like $8,000. By the way, there may or may not be some discount available if you, if you were to attend tonight's webinar. So if you guys are looking to dive in, I'll invite you to that. But generally speaking, I have an $8,000 mentorship where it's hands-on, it's multiple times a week. It's a full like 300 video course. There's even recordings for up to about 350 hours of past mentorship calls. It's insane. If you don't need that, I put together this $97 product that shares like, it's like my top 20 favorite plays of how to structure deals without using any money. It's different equity partnerships. It's different. It's like, I share, I think 5 of them are different ways to structure the debt. We talk about land contract. We talk about actual seller financing. We talk about using the bank with seller financing. We talk about buying zero down with a bank without any seller financing at all. Uh, there's a ton of different strategies in there, but other people will charge like $2,000 to $5,000 for courses that go over this stuff. And I, I was looking at 'em like, what is the highest value thing that I can put together and I can produce in one week at an unbelievably high quality where people pay $100 and they go, holy crap, I learned everything that I want. The reason it costs $97, by the way, is that is the math of how much it costs me to market it for the amount of people I want to buy it, to buy it. So I'm like, what can I get out there at cost to a ton of people that is really high value benefit to Christian? Now you don't have to buy anyone else's course because you learned what everyone else teaches, and I didn't have to pay to market it because you guys cover my marketing spend. That's the trade there. $97 product though, It's insane. You're gonna, you're gonna, if you get that, you'll be like, wow, that was way, way, way, way more than $97 of value, which is why I have it. So yeah, if you guys do that, highly recommend. It also includes all of the daily tasks for like, this is what I would do to copy Christian's strategy. And it comes with a checklist and all sorts of like downloadables. And I included a whole hour-long webinar recording in there of the Section 8 strategy. Cuz what we do with that is so cool. You get a bunch of bonus stuff. So $90, $97 product. I think if you do that one that has all of them or they come out to like $120 or something like that, either way for like no money, it's the highest value per dollar thing that I've ever done. You can check it out. I did not plant him there with that question, by the way, if you're wondering. This is not an ad to buy my low ticket products that are high value, but it's cheap and it's awesome. You should do it. Is it foolish to use an infinite return strategy BRRRR to raise the NOI rents, lower expenses? Um, no, it's not foolish at all. BRRRR strategy is awesome. I like paying down my debts though. I don't lever them up beyond where I need to. I want the lowest leverage point. I'll buy it with the highest leverage point I can to get the cash flow that I want, especially with partners, because I need to multiply the money to buy the partners back out. Once the partners are out, I want as low leverage as humanly possible and as much cash flow as possible. It's not foolish though to stay levered. There's other— there are other strategies that mathematically work just fine. I like taking risk off the table. I want to build my whole universe, and I do not want to be one of those people who are like, I owned the world and then I lost it because I got greedy. I just want to buy my portfolio, stabilize it, pay off the debt, and honestly just finish the whole thing. End up— I'll probably end up with a couple thousand units, have them totally paid off, and just ride off into the sunset. Be like, everyone wants to be immortal. I don't care. It's I would like to pass generational wealth to my kids, but at the end of the day, their kids will statistically will probably spend it all and it will disappear anyway. I don't need to live forever. My money doesn't need to live forever. However, while we're here and I am alive, I want to build something fun. And so for me, having a few thousand units and paying it off is something that other people haven't done. So that's the mission that I'm on. If my kids' kids spend it all, I hope they don't. And if they do, yeah, It's fine. Long answer to your, your question, by the way, but I think about this all the time. I could lever up and I could pull a ton of money out and I could just scale, scale, scale forever. I just don't want the risk of losing it. I don't want my legacy to be like, wow, he had 10,000 units and he lost them all. I'd rather have 2,000 to pay them off. How do you find property owners? Slash email online that you can connect. Oh, I'll be talking about that on today's webinar, actually. Link below.. But if you connect with a property manager or leasing agent, I usually just say, have an important question for the owner and see if they can pass me by. Sometimes you find their contact info. It, it happens. What's a good Canadian market to invest in? I do not know. I do not know. I know there are good ones. I've seen a few and I've actually had a few Canadian mentees, so I'll evaluate any deal. Off the same principles. It all, it's all the same math, but I don't know a lot of geography in Canada. I am, uh, I am good at American geography and American markets. I do not know. I apologize. I won't answer a question that I don't have an answer for, and I wish I did, but I don't. How would a hybrid PM work for onsite? Um, is that pretty common? So like a hybrid PM. For onsite management, might need a little bit more clarity on that. The way that I manage is decentralized model, essentially think zone defense instead of man-to-man. So I'll do like a, so I'll have offsite, but they're dedicated to like 5 properties in that market. So I can take my best team instead of just being like, I have an employee on the site here and here and here and here and here, and all of them are okay. I'll just have my A-team manage everything in a zone. I found that's an easier way for me to do it. Um, I will have one on-site planted at the 76 who will split time between that and the 44 because those buildings are big enough where we need some on-site presence. But those two LLCs can share that person. Um, so I actually would customize like hybrid PM. I get pretty custom with a lot of my PM things. So if you had an on-site working for you, I would probably delegate most of the leasing tasks to them. And if you can, maintenance coordination. I would not try to do all of your rent collections, online portals, and books yourself unless you really wanted to. So best I can answer your question the way I imagine it being, if you have onsite, they do your onsite task, leasing and general maintenance, contract coordination, and you have someone bill less to do your collections, your books, and your field any phone calls. That's, that's probably how I put it. Zero, all the time, man. Uh, and I will be better at, uh, staying to my schedule, so you guys can absolutely, uh, join at 5 CST and I'll be there at 5 CST. Ken McElroy, uh, said survive till 2027, meaning try not to raise rents too much. He said 2027 is when the real estate market will go up. I like Ken, and Ken actually really likes my first business partner, Cody Davis. They're relatively close. I like Ken a lot. His economic projections are all over the place. They're usually good, but sometimes they're just arbitrary. I think he's probably right on the 2027 thing, but here's my opinion of the economy. And I'll end on this. For the US economy, sure. Survival 2027, survival 2030, whatever it is. I think he's probably right. I think the next couple of years are going to be really, really interesting. We don't know what's going to happen. We have an unbelievably— staying apolitical here. The last administration and current administration are unbelievably different. There's a lot of things that you can project for. There is no one who has an accurate projection. Are we going to do the tariffs? What is their actual effect going to be? We're going to have to see it actually played out. Every country is going to react differently. What are we going to do with housing? What are we going to— there's so much change. The only thing that I know is for the next 4 years, the market's going to be really unpredictable, which means it's probably a great time to be buying because other people are going to sideline their money. Which means deals will sit on market a little bit longer. That is something that I can count on because when there's volatility, the money slows down a little bit. This is a great time to dive in and get started. I started right before and during the beginning of the last pandemic, plandemic, whatever you want to call it. A lot of people stopped buying. I picked up a ton of real estate, then rents skyrocketed. I made a lot of money, not because I knew what the market was going to do, because there was just more opportunity sitting out there. So hope that helps. Hope that answers the question. I have to go live in about a minute. So I'm gonna go prep for that. Link's below if you guys wanna check out that live. I'll see you guys over there very, very, very shortly if you guys wanna join that. And yeah, I will see you all soon for those who had a couple extra questions. Every Wednesday, same time. See you then.