Jen Rubio on Balancing Design and Practicality

Sam. Hi.

Hello. Good afternoon. So it's great to be here with Jenna. Jenna is, as you heard, she is the co founder and president of Away and if you're unfamiliar with the company, Away was founded in New York City in 2016 and designed special objects for modern travel.

What does it mean?

Well, it's really interesting actually what it means, but it started as a luggage company and your signature product, the Carry on, has a built in battery that can charge an iPhone or any USB device. It has an unbreakable shell among a bunch of other great features. And this spawned a bigger play for the company as we'll get into. Jenna's worked in advertising, marketing and e commerce startups and she was selected as Forbes 30 under 30 for 2015. Yeah, not under 30 as you heard, she has a wide, her experiences are wide ranging. She's worked for some amazing brands like Warby Parker and All Saints. She taught advertising and marketing spoken throughout the world. And I think we'll start off by just asking how your multitude of different experience experiences has informed what you've done with Away, which started as a luggage company, as I said, but now is something more akin to a travel and lifestyle platform and brand. So explain the experience and how it led to what is going on with away today.

Well, we only have 38 minutes. My interest, I think throughout all of my jobs has been about how people interact with brands. And it didn't necessarily start out as an interest in branding, but thinking about why people buy the things they do, why they interact with the brands that they interact with. And I think with the advent of direct to consumer brands that are launching online, that rely heavily on social media and storytelling, that's where a lot of what I'm doing now came into fruition. I'm going to fast forward a little bit to, to my work at Warby Parker. I started working there in 2011 when it was 15 people and I was having to explain to everyone why I left my job in advertising to sell glasses. And what that time, those three years at Warby Parker really taught me were that you don't need to invent a business model like Warby Parker didn't invent selling glasses online. What they did do was create an incredible, incredible brand, an amazing customer experience that people love to talk about. And through that we're really able to disrupt the industry and do something meaningful in an industry where nothing new had been happening for many years. So I think that kind of, I don't want to say gave me the playbook for what to do for away, but it taught me a lot of things. A lot of decisions that are right for away, a lot of decisions that don't make sense for us, but we know the reason why. And that's actually where I met my better half, my co founder who ran supply chain at Warby Parker. And we started AWAY a couple years after we left Warby.

And so much like Warby Parker was in an industry that people didn't really think could be innovated or, or design thinking could kind of play a role to upend the industry. AWAY has done the same thing for luggage, but the luggage space was pretty full to begin with. You go to any airport and there's a multitude of different options you can get for carry ons and other types of luggage. What went into designing and creating a brand that can kind of face up to these existing iconic brands and one that appeals to those who want to maybe eschew the more recognizable brands in the space. What goes into developing that?

Well, I think it's important to differentiate that there could be a lot of choices. It doesn't necessarily mean there's any great ones. So I think. And it also depends on how you define an iconic brand. I think if you're a frequent traveler and you spend a lot of time in airports, there are a few pieces of luggage that you start to see over and over again and that might click in your head and resonate with you as like, oh, this is quality luggage or this is luggage I should be buying. A way actually came out of me looking for a brand of luggage to buy because my luggage broke. I went on Facebook, asked my friends what brand of luggage should I get? And all of the. I mean, there were no, these are people who love to travel, who thinks about every aspect of their travel from like, what they're wearing, where they're going, how they're going to pack it, like where they're going to have dinner. And literally everyone who answered my Facebook post was like, I don't know, don't get the one I have. Or I have this one. But it was like handed down to me. Or I got this. The company I interned for gave these to us like on our last day. Or I just like used this hand me down. And there was just no overwhelming sense of brand affinity for luggage. And that really struck me because travel is something that everyone does. It's something that really excites people and you would never travel without your suitcase. So why wasn't there something that existed that people were excited about? And I wish I Could sit here and say, yeah. And then I realized that we could enter with the direct to consumer business model and provide meaningful value. But that was my business partner. I was like, I want to make a really cool luggage brand that resonates with people. And we kind of reconnected and we realized on top of there being a meaningful brand that resonates with people, like existing in this space, there's also space to go direct to consumer, provide something really high quality. So, you know, our bag, all of our bags are under $300. Similar bags would be like six to $900 in retail stores. So really provide that, you know, quality to price, like value and just create something that really resonated with people.

And so what were some of the kind of pain points that you tried to solve that went into the design of the bag?

I mean, so many. So I. One of the funny things.

Not bag, sorry, the luggage.

The luggage. So one of the things is we started doing a lot of work ahead of time before even creating our first prototype. And we were thinking about, you know, what are the pain points? How do people pack? And we started surveying, you know, just started with a quick survey, monkeys and things like that.

How'd that go?

Well, it's interesting. So if you give someone a survey and you say check off all of the features that you want in your luggage, they'll check off all of them. And then if you ask people what they'll actually pay for, they won't check off any of them. And also it's like you ask something in a survey like, how do you pack? Either no one knows or they're just typing a bunch of bs. So we actually ended up. I cannot tell you how many hours we spent watching people pack, which sounds pretty creepy, but we would, you know, go visit the homes of like friends or friends of friends and people in our extended network. And we'd like come over with some coffee and some bagels and like watch them pack. And all the people who thought they were super organized were not, like early.

In the morning, we're going to be there at four for your five o' clock for your.

No, I mean, you just had to make it work. And I think that's how we realized what kinds of things we needed to, to design for. So, you know, people don't like their shoes touching their clothes. We found out things like people were unpacking their suitcases that they had just come back with and they had all these like laundry bags and plastic bags stolen from the hotel that had their like wet Bathing suits and dirty laundry in them.

There must be one or two really interesting things that you discovered. You mentioned something about people not wanting their shoes to touch the rest of their luggage earlier.

Yeah, well, that was Dan, who was telling us backstage that he doesn't like his shoes touching his clothes, so he wraps his pajamas around them. I'm, like, blowing up his.

That's right.

But that's why we created a lot of the features that we did. And I think people are just so used to having, like, a crappy experience like packing and dealing with luggage and that they didn't even know how to describe what they needed or describe what we could be helpful with. So I think it took a lot of understanding that consumer behavior and really just witnessing it happen to get the insights that we needed to design our product.

And so one of the key things, I think, for you guys, that has led to a lot of success is this the brand identity that you've created and what emotions are you appealing to with the way. What went into trying to get those emotions into what you were pushing out to the world in general?

Well, I knew from the start that, you know, I wasn't. I wasn't. I didn't go into this thinking, hey, I'm gonna, like, build a company that sells a lot of suitcases. Like, that's not what was interesting to me. What was interesting to me was the fact that I love travel. There's a ton of storytelling you can do around travel, and luggage is one of the key parts of travel that can really make or break a triple. And it's also an easy way to create something that can make travel more seamless and more enjoyable and exciting. And it doesn't have to be the part of a trip that everyone dreads, like packing and unpacking. So I think for us, we knew we wanted to go into this, building a travel lifestyle brand, whatever that means, and just starting with luggage. We always joke with our investors that we're a travel lifestyle brand, and our monetization strategy is selling suitcases. But what it's done is we went out in the market with a very thoughtfully designed product. We really heard a lot of things along the way, did hundreds of iterations to come up with something that looks pretty simple. Kind of feels like, oh, this will just get the job done. But the more you use it, you realize what. Why certain features are in place. Like I was telling you in the green room, we found out psychologically from a lot of people that once you're packing and you're stuffing all your things in the bag. There's a really satisfying sense of completion to when you're pressing down on your suitcase and you zip it around. We have a built in TSA lock and then you click the zippers into the lock. And those are the kinds of things that drove our decision, like which lock to use. Like, there was a lock that was good and it worked and it was sturdy, but it didn't make a noise when the zippers clicked in. And it like, left people worried that it wasn't locked and it wasn't. It just genuinely, like, wasn't as satisfying. And now it's kind of this, like this, like, reflex. Like you pack, you get everything in there. I'm always like, kneeling on my suitcase. You put the zippers around and there's like a really satisfying, like two click at the end when the zippers lock in. And it's those little things that, like, you know, it's like the tiny, tiny details that really get people obsessed with the product. And we have customers writing it all the time to thank us for, like, making them better packers. And I don't know how true that is, but it's great feedback to get. But kind of going back to your question around the brand identity, it was for us, it's more about like this experience of, of storytelling. So we.

And for who? And specifically, it's this, this group of travelers who are a key demographic.

Yeah.

That you're trying to appeal to.

Yeah. So if you, if you think about like, our actual, like, design and brand identity for Away itself and for the suitcase, it's like very minimally designed. It's like, it's just very clean. It's very simple. It's, you know, we have a very talented team of designers, but it's meant to appeal to a wide, wide group of people, which is people who travel. And then every month or so we launch collaborations with different brands. And the point of these collaborations are to kind of go deep with one group, whether it's Instagram, Girls who Love Millennial Pink, we did a whole collab for that. Whether it's for people who kind of want to bridge the gap between home and travel. We launch a collaboration with film recently or maybe it's for kind of like career multi hyphenates who, like, are very inspired by the world. We just launched a capsule collection with Rashida Jones based on kind of how she travels and how she sees the world. So our goal with these collabs is to reach new audiences and new groups of people. So where are Our brand identity and our design system is. Is very clean and minimal throughout. With the collabs, we go all out, which is really fun for our design team, because every single collaboration gets its own brand identity. It has its own soul and its own spirit. And it's still the away tone of voice, of wanting to explore the world, but really going into a niche. And I think that's been really successful for us because I think it's very easy with your brand identity if you're trying to reach, you know, a wide group of people. If, like, if you went in with a brief of like, oh, I want to reach people age 16 to 60 who travel, you're not going to get anything exciting that really satisfies that. But we're able to do that to reach this, like, wide, wide range of people, but also just get really creative on the collaborations that we do.

And so you talk a lot about design. So how does design tie into your brand? How do they connect? How does the thinking about how you're designing your products connect with what you're trying to do with your brand?

So I think the delta between good design and a brand is emotion. So I think you can have things that are really well designed and that are really beautiful, but you still don't feel like a sense of. Of connection or emotion with that product or with that company. And I think what makes something like a brand is emotional connection that you feel with it. So I think for us, it's like it's a baseline to have everything beautifully designed, and not just beautifully, but also thoughtfully designed. But we want to make sure, with our language in our copy, with the way we're telling the story, with the experience on the website, that all of those things add up to create an emotional connection with whoever's experiencing it. We're super experience driven in everything that we do, whether it's our product page or if you go into one of our stores, we have one in New York and one in la, and we're opening one in San Francisco next week. It's about how you feel when you walk in. So if you go. And the experience that you have with away. So if you go on the product page, where a lot of luggage brands might use their product page to talk, like about the tech specs and the materials and the dimensions. We do all of that, of course, because that's like necessary information. But the large majority of real estate on our product page is showing the bag in context, it being packed, it being nested and put away, like under your bed after A trip, it being dropped on the ground, things like that, that can really show people the context of what they're buying. It's the same thing with our stores. We have a big beautiful store in NoHo in New York and one corner, and one corner of it is dedicated to the suitcase. And you can roll the suitcase around and open it and pack it and play with it. But the rest of the store is a cafe that's full filled with coffee and lots of travel books that people sit down and go through the travel guides and get inspired for their next trip. There are shelves and shelves of travel magazines and city guides. There are shelves full of things that you would bring with you, from a sleep mask to wear on the plane to essential oils and headphones. So it's really just about selling this experience of traveling. I didn't even realize I said this earlier in my inbound studio thing, but someone tweeted it and quoted me. So thank you to whoever did this. But if you're not telling the story about what your product can enable someone to do, then you're just a company that sells things. You're not a brand.

And you mentioned other things you're doing with the brand. We pointed out that you started as a luggage company, but now you're something more a travel and lifestyle brand. And a couple of things that I find fascinating that you've done to expand what you started as is first, you have created this editorial product in online and print magazine called Here Magazine. And coming up pretty soon you're going to be launching a pop up hotel in Paris. And so people don't usually equate a luggage company with a hotel in Paris, but that's all tied into your brand and it fits seamlessly. How are all those things tied together and what was the thinking behind some of that?

I mean, I think the thing that ties all those things together is the fact that we as a brand exist to make travel more seamless and more enjoyable. And both of those things do that. So luggage was the start. We also realized after talking to a lot of our customers in our community in person, that there was this need for relatable travel stories. I think with a lot of travel media there's this whole thing. These magazines are written and produced by travel editors who literally travel the world for a living and get comped in hotels and have these amazing experiences that they write about, but it's not super relatable. And we built this entire brand around making travel accessible. So if Nike is like, just do it, I feel like Away with travel is like, yeah, we should do it. Like, why not? And that's kind of.

How do you get. How do you get that inflection in the branding, though?

It's not written anywhere. Please don't tweet it. My team will be like, what is she on? But. But it's more inclusive. Like, if Away was a person that you're following on Instagram, we don't want to be. The person that you see comes back from some crazy, exotic vacation and you think, oh, I could never go there. We want people to be like, oh, I'm gonna put that on my list. That's the next place I want to go. I don't even know what the question was.

It was about the brand and everything else that's tied into it, beyond the likes.

Oh, yeah. So if those. Those are the things that we want to convey with our customers. I knew I was going somewhere with this. We looked at all the other parts of travel where we could. I think it's one part being opportunistic and one part knowing that this is something in the travel space that needed improvement. So we've always had it in our head that, like, travel media and magazines could be a lot better. Was.

As opposed to what they are now.

Which is better than what's out there. But I also love what's out there. And thank you for writing about us, so. But we knew we had our own unique point of view on how to tell travel stories, how to get travel stories from people who are not necessarily more relatable, but interesting people from different industries who didn't travel for a living. And if you think about how people travel today, you guys are asking your friends for recommendations. There's a few sites that you check, but a lot of it is just like, where did this person go when they were here? Like, I'll do that, too. So that's kind of our approach to travel storytelling, both in the magazine and in our podcast. And then the opportunistic part comes with, you know, Our editor in chief of Here magazine was actually. She'd been at Conde Nast for years, had worked for a number of different publications, and we actually met to get coffee and talk about, like, a few ideas that she had if we were ever to start a travel blog. And then many hours later, we realized we were totally on the same page with what needed to exist out there with travel media. So we're like, why don't you leave Conde Nast and start a magazine? And she was like, what? So now we have an online and print magazine. The print magazine, you know, we make hundreds of thousands of copies of and they go in every suitcase. They're sold in our stores and they're distributed in a few other places. But one, if you buy an away suitcase and you get the magazine inside, you really get a sense for the brand that we're building and the storytelling that we're all about. So I think that's really important because it's like yet another touch point to show people what we're about. Two, I think the fact that this magazine can exist without ad revenue makes for better editorial, which actually has resulted in a lot of ad revenue, which has been amazing because it's this self funding thing that at its worst could have been marketing dollars and at its best is like its own revenue stream for the company, which is great, which is amazing. And I think with things like that, it's like when we hired Ali, our editor in chief, we had sold our first bag less than a year before that. So was that the best time to go into print? Is there best time to go into print? Probably not. But we saw this perfect fit for this vision and the person to carry it out and it's working. So I think a lot of times what doesn't seem to make sense on paper, like, you know, if it's in line with your vision and what you're trying to build, you just have to kind of go for it.

And so that makes sense. The magazine that you can put inside your luggage as you give to customers and delight them even more and get them to buy into the brand. But then on the other end of the spectrum of the traveler experience is a hotel. So can you talk about that and the thinking behind that and what that's going to be like and you know why it's exciting for the brand.

Yeah. So we are doing a pop up hotel in Paris and it opened today. It's called Chez Oa and I'm actually flying there tonight. I'm super excited. But essentially what, I don't even know where the genesis from this came from, but it's Paris Fashion Week right now and people who go to fashion weeks have like a very specific set of needs and it's like, it's things that no hotel ever has. Like, like you need someone to steam your clothes between shows or you just need an in house manicurist. And you also just want a place where the rooms are great and beautiful and the service isn't too overwhelming, but you want there to be parties there. And also, well and it's just a very specific set of needs. So we were like, ok, this is such a specific set of needs that this is where we could actively make a difference. So. And again, this was also a case of like, luck and opportunity. Was in Paris over the summer, stayed at this beautiful boutique hotel called the Amistan. And I was thinking if AWAY designed a hotel, it would look like this. It was very on brand for us. Got to know the owner. We really shared a lot of the same sentiments on what hotel service needed to be like, not just in Paris, but everywhere. And I think a lot of hotel brands are revamping what they're doing now because it's like, very evident that, like, some of the service offerings they have aren't that valuable to customers who, like, maybe want to be more. Want the hotel to be more hands off. So we shared a lot of, like, the same views on hospitality and experience and then realized what AWAY could bring into this equation was kind of like the activations and the people and the connections that you can make while you're at the hotel. Bringing in like, wellness programming, partnering with some of our favorite brands to give people like the, you know, these are people traveling from mainly New York to go to Paris for Fashion Week, giving them all the stuff that they need for that week to really make the week as seamless as possible. So that's what the hotel is. It's sold out in seconds. We announced it. All the rooms are booked within like a minute.

So how long you're doing starting tonight.

And how long is it's going until October 3rd, so for the entirety of Paris Fashion Week. And it's just like, just very specific things to that audience. And there's also some great events going on there. And obviously that's like, you know, good parties and great branding and cool products in the rooms. Like, does not a hotel make. But it is those little things that make the experience that much better. And I think, you know, whether it's the magazine or the podcast or this hotel or anything we do in the future, if we want people to, when they think of a way to think of like, better, more enjoyable travel. And these are kind of all the touch points that. That we're trying out.

I know you mentioned. So at the core of the company is still the carry on. And you mentioned a couple things that you. That went into the product. And I think it's interesting that you work with the product and what. You know, I think it's. A lot of companies don't have the opportunity to actually Work with the product. And so you created the product as you were designing the brand. And so what was some of that, like, what was it like to create the product while you're figuring out what the brand is and how the product is going to reflect the brand? And I know backstage we talked about kind of materials, and a lot of it had to do with your experiences with luggage and travel and other people in the companies and how that was involved in a lot of the decision making.

Yeah. So, I mean, I think when you design a product and you want it to be used by a lot of people, you deliberately can't make it too much of anything. We like to say our product is like everything you need and nothing you don't. Because the second you start to add on those details, no matter how minor they are, you think, oh, why not put like a little silver plaque for a logo? It's those tiny little things that can turn a customer off to it.

And you mentioned Apple when we were talking and the little things you don't even recognize.

Yeah. And it's the little thing. So the Apple reference that he's making is that something that's always really inspired me in product design was a long time ago. I read about how the package engineers at Apple engineer the box perfectly so that when you get a new iPhone and you like turn it over in your hand, the phone just like so perfectly falls into your hand, like, like not too hard, like you never have to shake it. And it's those little things like that. It goes back to what I was saying about the zipper and like that like, satisfying click of it. It's like those little things that you associate with the product. I think visually when you're creating a product, we knew we needed to make something that would look at home in the airport next to college student who's maybe studying abroad to maybe like a much older business person who flies frequently because they're a consultant and everyone in between. And I think that's been really gratifying. I'm from New York to go to JFK to see a dozen away bags and literally every customer is so different. That's been amazing for us that we've been able to reach that number of people because they all feel like they can resonate with what we've built. I think when you're designing the brand in terms of a graphic system and tone of voice, that's where you can be a bit more playful. You still want it to be something that people want to associate with and something that resonates with them, but you can show more of your brand personality. So we were actually really careful to keep the suitcase product itself as minimal as possible, but be a bit more playful with the brand and then really go crazy with the collaborations.

But it still had to be. It had to work as well or better than other things in the market. And I think, you know, how do you balance the two? Having that design influence, but also making it something that is practical.

Yeah, it's funny. So I actually never even talk about that because for us, it's like such a. Like a baseline thing that the suitcase that we make has to be better than everything else out there. And then I realize I don't talk about it, and I'm like, oh, wait, people don't know that. So we basically did a ton of research, looked at all these suitcases, and we were like, these are, you know, we found the bag with, like, the best wheels, the best zippers, the best shell. And we were like, these are our, like, comps for how good our suitcase has to be. I think no matter how much branding or storytelling and how evolved you are in that sense, at the end of the day, you really can't scale. If you have a crappy product, people will find you out at some point. So for us, it was. The core of our company was to create a beautifully and thoughtfully designed suitcase that functioned really well, was super high quality, and checked off all the boxes to. To the other comparable suitcases out there. And then all of the brand and storytelling can't happen without that. And it just really makes sure that there are some people who don't care about brand, and they are just going in there to get a really good suitcase. But for the people who may just buy the suitcase because they need it, they stay engaged with the brand and they subscribe to the magazine and they, like, download every episode of the podcast, and, you know, they. They follow Instagram to see what's going on with the hotel, all of that stuff. Those are like, the extra layers on.

Top of the product, and mistakes can be made at times. You mentioned one of the first iterations of the shell was something that you had to work through, and, you know, you had an idea, and then once it hit the. Hit the market, you realized something completely different from talking to customers or people who are testing the luggage.

Yeah. So, I mean, this is the beauty of prototypes. So I think there's. You can design with the most research and the best intentions, and, you know, you think you really know what's good for your customer. But it's really all about perception. And if they don't perceive what you've designed in the way that you designed for it, then it does. It really does not matter. So, for example, when we were designing the shell of our hard shell suitcase, you know, we work with, with polycarbonate, which is really the material that like fighter jets are made out of. It's like super lightweight, it's indestructible. We knew we wanted to design it to have like a little bit of give so that even though it's a hard shell suitcase, people could still pack their clothes inside. But we also knew that if we made it really hard, it was more susceptible to cracking if a baggage handler threw it on the ground. So we had all these insights. We thought we knew what was best. And we designed this shell that had a lot of give, it was really flexible. And then we tested it with a focus group and they were like, oh, this feels cheap and it's flimsy. And we're like, this is literally the most accessible, expensive thing we could have done. I was like, what do you mean? And I think it just goes to show. I mean, it's like, we're not going to. We're lucky that we had that group and we were doing that research. If we had gone out to the market with that, we're not there to explain to every customer as much as we want to be like, we can't explain to every customer the thinking and the intention and the design behind what they perceive as Chinese cheap material. It was actually super expensive and took a really long time. So I think it's just part of good design is just making sure that what your design intention is equals the customer perception. Because if there's any change in that, it's not going to work out in the long run.

So we've gone through how experiences, your personal experiences and work experience have shaped a lot of the brand and design of the product. We've talked about, you know, the key elements of design, we've talked about the thoughtfulness, how you've thought through different processes. But we haven't talked about travel and the emotion, the key emotion of travel. And I think it's something you've spoken about before in different talks. I've seen you speak and this idea of happiness that is derived from travel. And it's something that I think is you've tried to infuse into the company. Can you talk a little bit about wanting to kind of create joy and happiness with the product for people who are traveling? But Also your own experiences traveling and what it's meant to you and why travel is so important to you.

Yeah, I think I got really lucky. I genuinely just love travel. I've been to like 60 something countries, I've been to all seven continents and pretty much like everything I am is based on some like random travel experience that I've had. And I think if we can inspire like our community of people to kind of look at a map and feel like all of it is within reach and that's what was instilled in me at a really early age, then we'll have done our job. And I think obviously that's a lofty statement for someone who makes a suitcase, but it really is the little things. If we just take the little details of things that seem daunting, whether it's just like packing for a two week trip, if we can make those things easier step by step, then I think we can get people to that point. I think I was really lucky because my parents taught me that everywhere is just a plane ride away. And obviously some plane tickets are more expensive than others. And it's like, you know, more saving or outfits. But you really have the choice of where you want to go and how you want to do it and how you want to experience it. And that's what we try to convey in everything and how we talk to our customers and in the stories that we tell on our website or in our magazine. And that's really been the core of the brand. And I think we have also, you know, really built that into our company culture. And we've built this company of people who love to travel. Every single thing we do, from our, from our, you know, brand marketing to product development, to even like the way we collect data and insights. All of our employees have to draw back on their travel experiences to kind of drive the way they do their work. And that's the, that's been so crucial in how we built the company the way we have. So on our job site where it says must love to travel, we're not kidding.

And personally for you, how have you derived happiness from travel in your own life? And what are some places that bring you joy and happiness when you go?

It's actually, it's so funny because I feel like, like I don't have, I don't have a resting state. So what I've gotten really good at is just like feeling at home everywhere I am, whether it's, you know, like, I flew to Boston last night, I'm going to Paris tonight, I Have to go to San Francisco after. I have. I was, like, in Beirut last weekend, and I'm just like, I'm always on the go. And I think part of it is making sure to not equate travel, travel with escape, with the way we always want people to feel like, you know, you're not traveling to leave anything or to escape anything. Like, you're bringing yourself to a new place and experiencing it and you come back a little bit changed. And I think that's really important. Like, you know, if I were using travel to escape, like, I'd have lost myself years ago. But I think just, you know, all of my life experiences have come from travel and from the different countries I've seen. And there have things that have been, as I've had, like, equally meaningful moments, like when I went camping in Antarctica to, like, when I went upstate with, like, someone special. So I think there's.

You've been to all seven continents, correct?

Yeah. Yeah. So just. Just finding, you know, the little meaningful moments in all those things.

And so you talk about going upstate. What are your. Just. What are some of your favorite places to go? If you're in New York and you're like, I need to go get away. What do you decide to do? I'm going to go instead of. You don't have time to buy a ticket to Paris? You haven't figured that out? You just need to go.

There's always time to buy a ticket to Paris. I know this because I just went to check in for my flight and I didn't have one, so. Whoops. But there's always time to buy a ticket to Paris.

That's a great takeaway.

It's expensive, but I actually just let my driver's license expire by accident. But I used to drive. Used to rent a car and just drive upstate. Like, fall in upstate New York is great, but I think you bring up a good point. Obviously, it's not equal. It doesn't cost the same. It doesn't take as much time. But I don't think distance needs to be the factor for. For people deciding if they should travel somewhere, it is as easy. It's actually easier to get from New York to Miami on a Saturday morning.

Than from New York to New Jersey on a Saturday morning.

Exactly. Exactly. So it's not about distance. It's just about ease. It's like you can do LaGuardia to Miami and be on south beach eating brunch by 11:30am Which I've done. So. So it's not about distance. And I think it's just about knowing those little things really just helps make the world more accessible.

Well, this is fantastic. I know I've got a lot from talking to you, learning about brand and some of the things you've done editorially. What's the best way for people to engage with the way? Is it the website? Is it the blog online?

Not. It's a magazine. Our website's awaytravel.com we're a way on Instagram. And then here magazine is here.awaytravel.com Excellent.

Well, thank you again for coming to talk. I know the founders. Yes. Thank you so much, guys.