Growing Your Home Service Business Through Referral Automation with Murphy Nadauld

Welcome back to the show. I'm your host, Phil Risher. And on today's episode, we're diving into growing your home service business through referral automation with Murphy Nadal. Thanks so much for joining us today, man.

Great to be here, Phil. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, for sure. So Murphy's the founder and CEO of Refer Pro, which is a referral automation software company built to help home service business owners convert happy customers into measurable reoccurring leads. Before launching Refer Pro, Murphy ran and exited his own home service business, giving him hands on insight into the field and the frustration of unmanaged referrals. Today, he guides Refer Pro's mission from Utah, where his rapidly growing team drives growth for contractors, H vac roofing and other home service businesses. So with all that, Murphy, can you give us like a quick background, maybe, you know, one or two minutes of like, got a home service business, what was it, what'd you do? And then how did you kind of come up with this idea and get going?

Absolutely. Most of my background is in tech. I've also had the home service company that I, that we scaled and sold. And so I've seen this from both sides.

Oh, cool.

And after we sold that as an operator and saw this pain point around referral management, especially in the trades, we started, the wheels started spinning. I was building another tech company at the time and we had a personal project where we were talking with every trade in home services at our home over a period of a month. And I saw quickly all of them had the same exact issue. And so I started to brainstorm with them on this solution a few years ago.

And they were all in. And so we kind of built it with that cohort, that group that H Vac, some plumbers, some electrical, electricians, you name it, all in this, in this same group. And so I just saw, you know, what we realized, and there's a stat to it, is that 83% of your customers in home service are willing to refer you. You've built the trust, you've done the hard work. And I know you're a believer in this too, Phil, from our past conversations, but what we found is only 29% and oftentimes much less actually do refer you. So in essence, this problem that referpro is solving is this 54% delta of customers who would otherwise refer you, but who are not for whatever reason. Now we know what those reasons are and we can dive into those and how we obviously bridge that gap. But that's the pain point. I think we Talk to a lot of home service businesses who get a lot of referrals and word of mouth. And that's true. That's great. That's that organic piece of customers who will refer you regardless. But I think as a business owner myself and working with companies, you know, across the country and world now there, there's so much, you know, there's so much juice left in that squeeze of potential referrals that lead to direct revenue. Right. We know that convert referrals convert at the highest ratio. We know they're less expensive. You can take your, your marketing engine and then supplement it with follow on referrals. So that's a little bit of the background on how we started this. You know, I come, I come from home service and have blended that experience with tech and home service and built something that, that I would have loved to have running my business.

Yeah, it's so funny. I was at a $3 million home service business and they were all referrals only like, like a Referral engine with B2B partners. And when I went to work there, they literally had it on an Excel spreadsheet with like all the different technicians names that was referring them. And I'm like, there's got to be a better solve somewhere to do this. And like people were trying, they're still trying to do this manually. So it's definitely a huge need. I'm curious because there's kind of, from what I found, maybe there's more buckets, but it's like the B2C, your residential customers referring their neighbors and friends. But then also the B2B side of it, which is like building partnerships with these other companies that can refer you. And I want to talk about both, but can we talk about the just straight residential B2C family? Like what does that look like and how does it work with your program?

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we definitely see it in those buckets. And let's dive into the customer side. We've got the customer bucket. You've got this gold mine of existing customers in your database that trust you, that you've done the job for. Then we've got the B2B side which we can get into. We've then got affiliates, whether that's technicians at other businesses that are non competitive or it could be, you know, these, these micro influencers and we're big on getting employees, getting your technicians, getting your project managers, the ones who are in the home involved in that process with the right tools and technology to do it. And also an incentive, but diving into the customer specifically. There's three reasons that we've identified why you know that 54% in general do not refer you. Number one is there's a lack of awareness. You're not staying front of mind to your H Vac company. They don't, they don't wake up six months later, 12 months later thinking about your H Vac company, let alone the referral program you're trying to run. Yeah, we make it really difficult, we make it really easy. I think in general it's really difficult to submit a referral and make sure that that attribution is tracked, that the lead is called. Typically in my experience you send a referral and it's hard to get that person connected with the business or you definitely don't get attribution for sending the referral. And then third is that incentive. A lot of these businesses try to offer incentives, but it comes down to if you don't have the attribution, how are you going to send the incentive? And then once you do, it's the accounting team cutting a physical check or wasting a bunch of time in a cumbersome process. So what we do at a very, very high level is stay front of mind. We've got AI and automation to send post service, SMS, post service emails. We've got tools for the technicians in the home to generate those referrals. So right after the job that customer's getting two or three touch points in person, electronically and then, you know, following up, we've got AI workflows. So in the future we don't want to treat every customer the same. We've got these different buckets based on past behavior to say six months later, let's follow up with Johnny with this personalized message based on Johnny's past six month experience with us where Jane might be in a different bucket and we can send something unique and specific to Jane's experience, staying front of mind, keeping that awareness, providing them all with one a personalized referral link, a way to share that on social media, a way to respond to set up a three way text that starts to track the attribution. They can also just respond back and our system will take that as a lead and push it as well. So regardless of how they're sending that referral, the attribution is kicking off from there. We track all that attribution, so we'll obviously track it in refer probe, but ideally it's going back into their service titan, their job or their jobnimous account. So their CSR can just call that in their normal booking flow and get that lead speed to lead, obviously get that converted, we'll track that. So as soon as, you know, Johnny refers Jane and Jane converts, we know that we can recognize Jane's successful invoice and then we can trigger an automated incentive. So now where the back office was taking a bunch of time tracking and rewarding, we can now automatically trigger that and they can go to our Reward suite of 230 plus options and then they associate that experience that they're having with that incentive with the business and they're much more likely to refer later on and I don't know, the speed to lead on. The incentive is huge too. I've been promised so many incentives over the time. And when a business doesn't pay that out, you now take someone who's an advocate and a trusted customer and then you don't pay them their incentive. You promised them and now they're a little bit frustrated. So that's right. That's a little bit of a high level on how we can take advantage of that customer database and give them an offer, turn them loose as your sales and marketing team essentially is what we're doing here.

Yeah, I love that. I want to double tap into a couple things. One you mentioned when you're in the home, kind of the technician can maybe, maybe like set up the opportunity so that they're not blindsided maybe or something. What does that look like in the home with the technician before the SMS or the touch points go.

Yeah, yeah. Our many of our customers have, some are owner, operator and that's great. We got those tools. Some have hundreds of technicians and trucks. And so this becomes really powerful at scale. The reason that these technicians typically don't, you know, get involved in that process is because there's not an incentive. Their incentive is tied to performance pay, get to the next job, get it done. And they also don't have a good tool to do it. So we arm them with a tool. They've got multiple tools. They've got a virtual QR code. It's saved on their screen. It's a PWA on their phone. They can then scan that as basically their own affiliate personalized referral link embedded into their electronic device, iPad or phone. They've also got a physical badge on their hip or in their wallet that they can use. It's branded to the business. It's got their name on it. They can say, hey, do you know any neighbors that need an H vac service right now? Go ahead and scan my link. I'll get credit, you'll get credit. And many times they do. They converted a high ratio, many times they don't, but it's at least that first touch point so that when they do get that follow up message, it's warm and it's ready to be converted.

Yeah, I love that. And then so after the invoice you'll send out maybe a text and an email like hey, by the way, we have this program, you're enrolled in it and if you refer someone you get.

X, Y and Z. Yeah, exactly. And depending on the industry. And we've got a lot of best practices, obviously we know what converts and what works. But offer an incentive up to, so you're paying X on an install X on a service call and they get that personalized message to them, that personalized email and then they have their personalized referral link that they can then use. So they've talked to the technician about this, they've received their own personal link and then they have an incentive attached. The technician has an incentive attached. And then in the background all the data and attribution is happening. So the business knows, hey, you know, 20 of our 40 technicians are bought into the referral program. We've got spiffing it, we're running incentives and they're getting really excited about this opportunity to make an extra $25 every house they go to. That's a game changer. And then same for the, for the customer. You're making them a hero, saying, hey, we're now going to offer you $250 if we get a successful install here. And by the way, if your friend needs service, we'll give them 10% off by using your referral link. So it's a, you know, you're building this army of advocates that can go to, go to market for you and you know, work with their network of people that need these services whether it's now or six months down the road. It's creating that awareness up front.

Yeah, for sure. I want to touch on one thing because people ask us all the time, it's like, well how much do I give away and what is that? And you mentioned that you have some numbers on this. I was always of the impression like if your cost per lead is X and it works with your numbers and like try to do this. What we did was we were charging like four or five hundred dollars was our average ticket. So we would give someone like maybe like 100 bucks, 80 bucks if they close the deal. But maybe there's some Other math or stats that you have that would be helpful for people listening?

Yeah, absolutely. And half of this is obviously implementing the automation, the tool, the Refer Pro platform. The other half is having all these best practices that we don't. We have tens of millions of data points now. We've done all the A B testing. We know exactly what kind of messaging should be going out, what the timing should be on that, how often, what time of day, what that incentive option flow should be like. So there's, there's a lot to that. You know, if you're talking H vac, for example, roofing might go higher, restoration can go really high. It's all dependent on the business, the average ticket size. You know, we want the business to be comfortable, but we do have those best practices. And so, yeah, I mean, if you look at it from this perspective, we take your average lead cost to generate that lead and then, and then we convert that instead of paying Google in this case, we can pay that directly to your customer, give back to them while you're getting a lead that converts at a drastically higher ratio. So yeah, obviously the higher the, it is a numbers game, you know, with referrals and the higher the incentive, the more likely your customers will be to engage in that program. But, but the positive is you're not paying that out. You can, you can pay out a smaller amount, you know, for every referral or you can just base it on. Once revenue is generated, then you pay out a bigger incentive. And we've got companies that like to do each or a little bit of both. I think it depends on, on the way they do business. But there's a lot of options there.

Yeah, that makes complete sense. I would say maybe go off percentages and figure out what your marketing budget is, cost per lead. And the beautiful thing is that these are much warmer leads, so it's not cold leads. You should be able to close them a lot more. And you can have tiered like if you submit a referral, you get this and then if you close it, then you get this. So you can kind of build into your ticket, which is nice.

Yeah, I love, I know you're in this world too. I just love looking at the whole sales funnel as a whole.

Right.

And we. Exactly part of it. But getting those referrals and leads in. But then, you know, what's your booking rate and then what's your close rate and then what's that average ticket size? And what we've actually found too, obviously referrals convert and are cheaper, but they Also have a higher ticket. And what we found with that is typically when people are making a more expensive decision, they rely on trust. So if they're going to do an H Vac.

Install replacement, they're much more likely to ask friends and family who they used or go to their referral market versus Google somebody for a quick repair because it's something that relies on trust. So we have seen average ticket sizes go up on referrals in general.

Yeah, I bet. Before we move on to B2B and affiliates, I do want to just ask you about some people say, okay, well I don't want to be annoying and just like hit these people up all the time. Like, be sure to refer us. And you, you did mention about this AI, which like, if you referred us then we'll like be more, you know, build better relationship with you faster. But what have you seen as far as like the cadence of communication to stay top of mind with people? That's not annoying. Is there some benchmarks there?

Yeah, absolutely. So I think ideally is right after the job and if they're doing other requests, you know, maybe it's invoice or maybe you've got some request right after, we'll delay that. So we'll say, hey, let's wait a week based on these other triggers. Actions and triggers are all very customizable and flexible and based on these AI workflows. So depending on the business, we'll send it right after the job's done when it's fresh, or maybe two, three, seven days later right after, when it's fresh. Get that on their mind. You know, we want to create that initial awareness and then we'll follow up periodically throughout the year. So we have different options. We can do one that's, you know, if we never hear anything from them, we'll follow up X amount, maybe that's every quarter. You know, if, if they do some sort of behavior that triggers them into another workflow, they go into a different bucket. Then they'll get that personalized message. Maybe they send us three referrals, maybe they came back for another service, whatever that is. We want to be specialized and personalized. These messages feel like they're coming from the owner of the business the way that we have it set up. So it's not, you know, it's not a big marketing blast per se. It's very personalized and based on that customer's behavior.

Yeah, I like that. I think if you don't have those triggers going in and out, it's like you don't know if this person is one of your top refers and it's like, hey man, thanks so much. Or it's like never heard from them, leave me alone. And you don't know a bucket that they're in. So it's good to have that built out. I want to ask you, we'll talk about affiliates, but the B2B side of things, what does that look like an H vac contractor? Like, who are they working with for B2B partners and how does that relationship look and how do they actually start that conversation and build that relationship? Because that's usually the hardest part for a lot of people.

Yeah, absolutely. There's, there's kind of two buckets that we put this in. A lot of these businesses already have existing business relationships, in which case perfect, we hope. But they don't, they don't know where that business is coming from. It's still very difficult to track.

Yes.

And so they can, you know, we can use that, that B2B, that affiliate tab, what we've seen. That's really cool. Obviously the business can refer and that's great. We support that. We have businesses doing really, really well with incentivizing technicians of other businesses. So it might be an owner operator of a plumbing business who's got 12 H VAC technicians from in the neighboring town who's on his, his affiliate or B2B program who are referring plumbing business over. And so it's, it's this cool, unique opportunity where they're not competitive. They're, they're now helping each other and those other technicians are getting paid out on that. So whether it's, you know, the owner of the business itself or whether it's the employees of that business, they can, they can create, you know, a win win situation with that partnership. And the tracking and attribution and the incentivizing of it historically has been the difficult part. They've got leaderboards so they can see of, you know, maybe we've got this H Vac company we partner with. I can see how they compare in referrals on the leaderboard other compared to other businesses. And I can see how their technicians compare to each other. They've got 10 technicians and four of them are power for sending us business every week. And six of them aren't engaged. How do we get those six engaged? Now you have that data that's really powerful to build a better program moving forward.

Yeah. So good. We, so I was at. We were 3 million, we went to 5 million. We had no salespeople so what we did was we had eight, about 80, like, salespeople that were technicians at other companies that would be sending us leads and customers coming in the door. And so what my job was, I was director of business development, was obviously to grow the business. So one thing was. So we did duct cleaning. So we were going after H Vac contractors and molder mediation companies and property managers. So my job was to go and find H Vac contractors and say, hey, I want to come in. I'll bring donuts to your. Your Tuesday morning thing. Meetings with technicians. And then I'm going to explain what duck cleaning is and how it helps. And then I'm going to enroll them in our system, which was like pen and paper, you know, but basically, yeah, that was like our starting point. And when I tell people this, they're like, oh my gosh, I don't need to hire salespeople. I can just like have a bunch of affiliates that are send me leads that are already doing work and I can pay them and they make more money and everyone's happy.

Yeah, that's huge. And all that business you were generating from that, those relationships was. Was driving basically 100% of your business, it sounds like.

That's exactly. And. And here's the crazy thing for people listening to this. So they ended up selling to private equity. And this, you know, duck cleaning is more like a one and done. They don't have service contracts, but they ended up getting a 6x multiple on it because of the relationships with these H Vac contractors. It wasn't just like, take the owner out and it's gone. They had these relationships in place. So it wasn't like the business was going to go away.

It's pretty crazy. That is pretty cool how. Yeah. Obviously driving all your revenue, but then had a major effect on the multiple, on the outcome. That's. That's pretty amazing.

Yeah. So how do you obviously. What. The game plan I just said is very manual. Do you guys have any way to, like, build these relationships initially or best practices so that you can go find these plumbing companies and kind of like Trojan horse or get in the door and like, how do you pitch it to the owner? Because they probably don't care about an extra 50 bucks, but maybe their technicians do. Like, what are your best practices or thoughts?

Yeah, absolutely. We. We started with that, that customer base. We've nailed that. We've got all those best practices. Customers are seeing so much success now with that. We've now leaned in over this past year and built out a more thorough B2B and affiliate type tracking and rewarding program. And so, yeah, we do a lot of that and we're getting more into making some of those connections. Right. I think there's a few different ways you can look at these affiliates and these B2B.1 is, you know, you've already got those partnerships and relationships and that's great. Or some businesses don't know how to do. You know, you're, you're really impressive and you were able to go build out those relationships, take donuts, you know, set up the program from scratch. That's not the case for everybody. I think that that's not always easy. And so we can be a tool and a resource in doing that with one of the best practices moving into developing and building those relationships as well. So that if you don't have those relationships, you can rely on us to engage that. You know, give them the intro, explain the program to them, help facilitate what that offer is, what they're tracking, help them save those links, you know, send them the material so they can use that. If they don't have the material or the way to use it, then it becomes difficult moving forward. So absolutely, we're getting more and more involved in making that ecosystem, you know, partner friendly so they can generate business. We've got people and we look at it from a business. We've also got these kind of micro influencers who, you might know, have the trust of the community, these Facebook community pages, the HOA page, and these people are able to, we integrate straight into those social media so they can use their links in there and we'll track all that attribution. So you've got Jane, who put this in her Instagram bio and posted in the HOA community page and drove 45 leads last week. So it's a really powerful thing to give them those tools and then let that spread further than is possible. If you're trying to do that in a manual way and just open it up for these, these technicians and these other businesses exactly like you did, just, just make that a little bit easier for them.

Yeah. For people listening to this, I want to hear maybe you have some unique examples like this, but obviously it makes sense. Your customers coming in the door, get them the B2B thing. Usually when people hear that, they're like, okay, yeah, that makes sense. But there's another one that I'm curious to get your thoughts on, which is PTA's charities and like local sports teams of building relationships with these charities and then say, hey, I'll donate to your charity if you do this. And then also you get a customer. And this is something that we've been working on with our clients of like building relationships with PTAs or other things. But have y' all ran some of these campaigns or any other unique ones that's kind of outside the box thinking, but it works.

Yeah, we have done a few. I wouldn't, I wouldn't say we're pros at that yet, that that's a newer one that's emerging. But we have had people who are like, hey. Or even the business that says hey. A lot of our customers, you know, they don't, they don't really care about the 100 or 250. They would be more incentivized by this, you know, charity or donation in their community. And so we've absolutely turned that open that up so they can one facilitate that. And, and that goes into our affiliates bucket. So there's a wide range of who these affiliates could be. It could be, you know, these groups, organizations, PTAs. It could be, you know, an individual or another business. And so the infrastructure is all set up to track and, and, you know, motivate those people and keep that attribution. And we're getting more and more into the weeds and familiar with how the best practices in those areas as well. But that is a newer one for us.

Yeah, I think the crazy thing, once you have the technology in place, it's like the sky's the limit. You know, you can like just come up with ideas like sports teams used to put the name of the business on the back of the thing or like go around and sell candy. But it's like you could flip that on its head and do something way better that's going to be automated and technology to have the tech stack in it.

So yeah, that gets difficult at scale where, you know, maybe a small business you can keep on top of all those affiliates, those partners, those customers. After you get so many, it becomes really, really difficult to do that. And just. And, and when it becomes too difficult and cumbersome and manual, we see it just doesn't happen very rarely. Can you just continue on like doing this manually, grinding every day, spending two hours trying to track and facilitate this. It ends up just falling through the cracks and doesn't.

That was me. Yeah, that was me.

You did a good job of it. That's like best case scenario, you crushed it, obviously. But most people have so much going on, they just. That falls by the wayside and it's just so valuable to make sure those referrals are coming in the door and then to see the revenue. Right. You can see directly attributed revenue of, hey, if I didn't implement this program, I generated 145k in incremental new revenue last month from this alone. That would have, that would have not happened. So.

Yeah, I agree. Thank you for the compliment. It was like not very good, but it ended up working. So that was good. I do want to ask you a little bit about the. You mentioned about that you have maybe 230 some like gift cards or something that people can go to. Like, what does that look like? And then is it like a points based system where they accrue money and then they can do it? What have you seen has been the best thing to like incentivize people to take action on that?

Yeah, so there, yeah, we have a whole, a whole, we take care of that whole piece, the incentive. So all the business has to do is, you know, when Johnny refers Jane, we automate and help facilitate that message to Johnny. Johnny, congrats. Your referral to Jane was successful. Here's your x amount, your $250. He can then go into the system and redeem that for whatever he wants. And so what we've seen is that's cool because then the business, you know, the business just pays the 250. Johnny can go redeem that for anything, you know, cash, automated gift card, you know, Amazon or any kind of retail restaurant. But if he books flights or takes the family to dinner, when he's doing those things, he's associating the business. He's saying, hey, this was on Elite H Vac. Sent this over. Who else can we refer to? Elite H Vac? So it becomes this, this momentum, flywheel of hey, I got paid out the next day versus previously I sent a referral last year and I never got paid out. Now I got paid out the next day. I got to choose how I wanted to use that. And now as I'm using that, I'm thinking about that business and who else I can refer. So it's a really powerful thing to keep that kind of close, that loop. I don't think businesses realize how detrimental it is to their relationship when you offer an incentive or you get a referral, a trusted referral from a friend and then you don't call them, you know, you don't take care of them. I've had that happen so many times. My buddies come back to me like, hey, I can't even Get a hold of your guy, I want this done and I can't get a hold of them. Or when you offer an incentive and then you don't pay that out. So it really does just help, you know, obviously drive revenue but just take that lift off of your back office team and make you more, much more efficient. So they're not spending two hours a day tracking and sending all these rewards. That's just happening in the background for the most part.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think, I think a lot of people they, they hear this and it's like that sounds like a lot of work. And y' all have come in and be like, okay, no, let's just streamline this and make it very simp for everyone to be able to go and do and implement in your business. Where's like the friction point that like people like eh.

I don't know about do I need to hire like a whole person to manage my relationship or like what is the friction point usually at.

Yeah, I think there's certain things that we can do and automate and you know, we have the best practices. There are some things and we talked about this whole sales funnel as a whole. Once we get you that lead, you know, you've got to, you've got to call that lead quickly. You've got to, you've got to contact multiple times. These best practices further down the sales funnel, I think sometimes that can still slip through the cracks. And so we've got full time account managers who help facilitate that. But you know, there are some businesses that are, you know, we make it easy. Well, it'll be in the dashboard, it'll be in your service type and we'll also send a text and email to you and your, your users, whoever you want. So you can just click on your phone and call that lead immediately. But there's still times where you know, businesses don't call those leads fast enough. And so it's hey, we're getting you those leads. They're so valuable. Let's call those quick, let's make sure we convert that to successful business. And so there's you know, varying levels of CSR depending on the size of the business. And so I think that's huge too speed to lead, making sure that we're converting that business over getting them booked. And we do a lot to help automate that. But there are some things that once we give you that lead and turn it over to you, we can help automate the booking with the customer. But if they don't book, it's you know, it's up to the business to call. So there are some pieces there.

Yeah, I get that. Hey, we turn on this referrals thing, getting referrals, but they're not closing. Okay, well, they're the warmest leads you could get. So. Come on. I do want to ask you about this, because this comes up and, like, people listening. This is not financial advice or tax advice or anything, but, like, people say, oh, well, if I'm paying all these people money, you know, then do I need to 1099 them? And what we used to do was we paid out via gift cards and we check. We. We put it as a marketing expense as well. But, like, I'm curious, like, maybe people ask you this or, like, what's the ramifications on sending someone thousands of dollars? Like, what. What is your take on that?

Yeah, that actually just changed this year. So it used. There used to be a limit around. I think it was 600, and now it's. I think it's above 10,000. I don't know exactly where that landed, but, yeah, that's. That's a much bigger now. So we do help, you know, with that tracking and reporting for the business.

So, you know, restoration, for example, some of them will offer $5,000 incentives. That's. That's really powerful and, you know, meaningful for both sides. And so, yeah, we have all that tracking, reporting. You know, we don't. We don't handle that. That tax stuff, but we have the reporting. So the business can. Can very easily see what they need to do if. If and when they decide to do that with their accountants at the end of the year. Yeah.

Okay, cool. All right, man. Well, this has been great. I appreciate you breaking it down. I think you have a really awesome business. I wish I had this when I was into trades, to be honest with you. So where should people go to learn more about Refer Pro? Maybe see how they could get a demo or. What's that look like?

Yeah, check out referpro.com is our website. You can book a demo on there. There's a lot of info there. And, you know, book a demo with. Our team. Would love to walk you through, learn more about your business. See. See how we can help. In most cases, we can. The ones we love talking to are, you know, you. When you were running that business, you. You're doing all the hard part. You. You made it a focus. There's some people that just don't even think. You don't even think about this and just let it happen. There's others like you who are just awesome and. And running it manually. And those are the ones that makes a huge difference for. Because we can just take that off your plate and make it so much easier. So we'd love to chat.

Yeah, I appreciate that. What I would say is if you're, you know, stalled out and you feel like, where's my growth going to come from? And you talk to your marketing company, they say, spend more on ads. Spend more on ads. This is like a whole nother side of things that most people never unlock in their business that can literally, I know for a fact, can generate millions of dollars because that's how my home service business was. So if you feel stuck and you're like, maybe there's another angle to this, I would highly recommend looking at some program like this. Cool, man. Well, it's been great to connect and appreciate the conversation and look forward to continuing.

Thanks for having us on, Phil. It was great to be here. We'll talk soon.

Yeah, man.