Our Primal 5: The Simple 5-Week Guide To Self-Care (Part 2)

Welcome to Readers, the podcast for the lifelong learner. Join us on our weekly dose of wisdom where we talk about the real life lessons and applications of books. Enjoy. Welcome back to Readers, everyone. This is part 2 of our Primal 5, the new book, the new series with Dr. Matthew Campbell. Welcome back to the podcast, Matthew. It's great to have you here.

Yeah, looking forward to it. Thanks for having me back. Absolutely.

You know, in part 1, you know, we covered sunlight and sleep, the foundation that sets your mood, your energy, and your emotional stability, right? And today we're moving into weeks 3 and 4, movement and social connection. Now, this is kind of an interesting pairing here, which I like because it hits two things that I feel like people underestimate. First, right, your brain is not designed to sit all day and just feel good, right? Movement is not just fitness, it's regulation. And second, humans don't do well alone. And this is something I think all of us know, but even if you're introverted, even if you're busy, connection is a biological need, not just a social preference. And I think there's a lot of misconceptions about what connection truly means, right? Is that just proximity? Is that about deep relationships? What does that really mean? What does that mean for your introverts and extroverts? Um, so I'm really excited to get into this today. And today is all just about making these two things practical, right? Movement that doesn't require some sort of crazy culture and connection that doesn't require becoming someone you're not, right? So without further ado, let's jump right into it.

Sounds great.

Awesome. So we'll start with week 3 movement, right? Because I feel like people hear this almost like gym cultish mentality and lifestyle of exercise, and they just picture your perfect bodies, intense routines. I mean, the things you see on Instagram and your David Goggins speeches, you know, and they just check out right away, or, you know, it's a turnoff for so many people. How do you reframe movement for, you know, your everyday normal person? When you talk about movement, right, what do you mean? Are you talking about this kind of gym culture? Are you talking about, hey, you know, take up and— or get up and take a walk every 30 minutes or so? Like, what does that really mean for you, and how is that accessible for your everyday person?

Well, what we're going for is literally physical movement. That is the key. And I, I think you hit the nail on the head when you were talking about what people associate with movement. More specifically, when they hear exercise, they are thinking something that is a bit more of an extreme approach. And that, that can be a really big roadblock to getting people to move. In fact, when I was putting the workbook together, I had a friend who is in the exercise physiology department in the town I live in, and I had originally used the word exercise, and she gave me a great suggestion and mentioning that in, in their field, they were trying to use movement more as the word because of that very association. So, we're literally just trying to get human movement. Walking is a fantastic exercise. And when we say that, it's even movement within the day. It's very good for us if we have desk jobs to have periods of time where we're walking around, we're doing things, you know, and then you hear the things like take the steps when you can, things like that, using these opportunities to move our bodies throughout the day.

Yeah, I think there's so many barriers that we encounter in our natural lives. Looking at a lot of the lifestyles a lot of us live, movement is just not something that's prioritized. You know, I feel like when I talk to a lot of my friends that have just come back from Europe trips or people who've traveled abroad and they talk about like, hey, it was just so easy to get like 10, 15, 20,000 steps in a day. And here we're like barely struggling to get in our 10,000, right? It's just a huge, huge barrier. I think another big barrier that a lot of people tend to feel, right, is shame. People don't start a lot of things because they feel behind, right? Out of shape, embarrassed, or just like they can't do it enough for it to really count. And it's hard for people, and I'm sure you know this as a psychologist, right? It's hard to put yourself out there and do something difficult without any guarantee of a return, especially when you feel like you're starting behind the 8-ball. What do you feel like is the best entry point for someone who feels out of shape, intimidated, or just too busy to even get started with something like movement or make that kind of a conscious shift in their lives?

Well, using what you had said there to begin that question, you used feel behind. So feel behind indicates a comparison. Behind what? What standard are we using? That's a huge problem.

Sure.

Comparison is the thief of joy. Comparison is the thief of progress. What we're really trying to do is improve ourselves. We are our measuring stick. And so we are trying to get our bodies moving more than they currently are. I think it's fantastic. You mentioned a few personalities that are in the health and fitness industry. I think that's great. I think that's great for the people who that clicks with, who are at a higher fitness level. I think that's fantastic. I think for so many in our country, and when we look at the numbers, and as you said, here in the States, when we look at the numbers, it's pretty overwhelming how much of a deficit this is in moving our bodies. And really, given all of the benefits of physical movement, how much better things could be for us.

Yeah, I think a lot of it also goes back to, you know, why am I doing this, right? What about myself? I think if you don't see an instant kind of shift or change, especially when it comes to your body, you know, those things are hard to come by. You know, you don't see much change come right off the bat as soon as you start going to the gym or something. But I think something that does happen almost instantaneously is how quickly movement can shift your mood. Right. I think people often think about movement in the same sentence as your looks or things like that, but the mental effect can happen almost the same day. You know, if you wake up a little bit earlier than maybe you used to, go to the gym or just take a nice walk. Um, I feel like that just tends to boosting my mood. Right. And I don't know if this somehow ties back to the sunlight that we talked to in the first episode. Um, but why do you feel like movement helps mood and anxiety so quickly for so many people?

I think it has many different benefits that we know. Specifically, I think oftentimes when we start moving from being sedentary, from having, you know, little activity in our daily life, I think that there is a sense of accomplishment. And I think that one of the answers to what you described or alluded to a moment ago, which is a very, very important part of this, which is the short-term That is something that we're trying to address here. That short-term focus can certainly get in the way of progress. Short-term goals. What am I going to try to do this week, or what do I want to be able to do by the end of the week? What is the goal there? Break up our goals into short— in the short term. In terms of mood, one of the things with movement that I think is so important is something you mentioned at the end of your question, which was anxiety. When I'm working with clients who are under a lot of stress or have high levels of anxiety, I find movement essential. I find something to release energy essential. In fact, I think a lot of times when our anxiety is at a really peaked level, many of the things that we naturally think of for anxiety— breathing, relaxation, things like that— can seem inaccessible to at least my clients that I've worked with over the years. And so some level of physical exertion of getting out energy can be very, very helpful in reducing that.

Yeah. I wanna harp a little bit on that short bursts or just getting started aspect that we talked a little bit about. Right. I think a lot of people talk about like, hey, you know, the hardest part of anything is starting. Now, I think, I don't know if I necessarily agree with that in this specific context though. Right. I think it's easy to, I think our generation calls it your 3:00 AM motivation. Motivation where, you know, you wake up and you're like, "Man, I'm just going to do all these great things and change the world and do all this fantastic stuff." But, you know, when it really comes around to it, when it's actually difficult to do so, when you have to choose between the meal you really want versus the meal you should have, that's when that 3 AM motivation or whatever fades away. And I think I can personally attest to this because actually last time when we recorded, I believe it was last week, and we talked about waking up, getting sunlight, I actually did end up shifting my daily routines. I started sleeping at around 10 to 10:30 every night, and I would wake up around 6 and go to the gym, and then I would go for a run, right? Now, obviously a part of that was the weekend, and that kind of threw me off track, just to be very honest, right? Now, I think this is something a lot of people can probably attest to, right? Consistency. People start strong and then life hits and then they stop, right? What do you feel like is the biggest reason people can't stay consistent with movement? And what's your simplest fix?

Well, I think that the word motivation is the thing to focus upon here. We are waiting on motivation. We are waiting on this feeling to get us to be healthy. And that's a problem. Anytime we wait on a feeling to direct our behavior, we're in trouble. Our feelings are going to fade. So the easiest example of that is one that's relatively universal: New Year's resolutions. And so someone says, I'm going to do this. They're excited. It's usually going to be health or fitness related in most instances. And I'm going to do this. And they may well hit the gym. They may well start an exercise program. For a week, maybe two. But what ends up happening, and the reason 90% of these are gone in a few weeks, is because they're wanting to remain motivated and excited. And that is wonderful to feel motivated and excited about healthy things. It's not going to stick around though. That excitement part isn't going to stick around. And so we need to take the approach of Behavior first and my feelings will follow. And so if we can get a structure, a routine, that's really big. You mentioned something about sometimes our schedules change. It's the weekend versus the week. Okay, well, that, that's okay. That's, that's real life. That's understandable. And we just try to make adjustments. We try to keep going with it. We're going to fall down. We're going to slip. That's just part of the process. I think that One thing that people find, the research also bears this out pretty well, is that maybe especially when we talk about movement, is having an accountability person, having someone you do something with, having someone who is going to prompt you that, you know, you know, I'm going to talk to them about this. That can be very helpful too in trying to get us to sustain something.

Yeah, I was actually going to talk a little bit about that accountability point. Is, I feel like for some people it works really well, right? When you know that, okay, I should go to the gym because I know my gym buddy's waiting on me, I know we're going to work out together and whatnot, right? But I also know a lot of people who it's had a negative impact on, um, and, and I'll use an example here. I know there's a lot of teenagers out there that are just starting to get into lifting or going to the gym or certain healthy habits, right? But The fact is this can also lead to some sort of a toxic kind of challenge, right? Um, and that happens often when you go with a friend or someone and they're lifting more than you, so then you try to ego lift, and that kind of leads you in a certain cycle that's just not good for your own health, right? And I think we often see a lot of fitness content, a lot of health content online on social media, and I think when we start to compare— and again, I know this is just going back to that first question, right? But when we start to work with somebody, we often tend to compare ourselves or use them as a benchmark of what our growth maybe should look like. Do you have any tips on how to maybe avoid that and how that kind of social connection is maybe not the most, you know, the most ideal for something like movement?

One of the things I would say just from the jump, from the beginning here would be, I think we do need to pick our workout partners well. I think that when we go in and we have someone that is, that there's a huge disparity or a notable disparity between the two of us, unless that person is helping us figure out how to do exercises and things like that, if they're actually our workout partner, that's probably not the best fit. Or maybe it's someone with whom you're competitive. Well, that may not be the healthiest approach for you. I think that generally speaking, it's good to have someone who's in a similar place that we are to begin it. Again, maybe you have a great friend who's going to be really encouraging, who's not going to kind of stoke the competitive fire within you and things like that, or they're there to show you how to use equipment and how to, you know, arrange exercise routines and things. That's great. But in terms of having that partner, I think that oftentimes We just want to make sure that it's someone we click with. You know, when I played tennis, USTA tennis, they made sure that you were at a level. They would— you would get a level of proficiency. You know, how good are you essentially? And there were these different levels, and that's who you would play with. That's who you would have matches against and things like that. Because undoubtedly, if I went out there against a 5.0, which is an extremely good player, I would get really discouraged quite quickly. That match would not last very long. Sure. So we really— it's important to match things up with those at a similar place.

Yeah, I feel like that's one of the reasons why you have so many cool communities nowadays when it comes to movement, when it comes to fitness and just personal health overall. Right. I think you see a lot of run clubs, you see a lot of gym communities, even teams, right? When I played basketball in high school, That was just always something to look forward to because even though practices may have been hard, I may have been forced to do things I didn't want to and whatnot, I was kind of in it with these people, right? And so it was always something to look forward to. I think in a similar way, the gym is something that's become almost a social thing for a lot of people, you know, where they end up going and they see some of their best friends or just people that they know at the gym, and it ends up being an outing that kind of refuels them. And now I think this is a perfect kind of segue here into Week 4, connection, right? And I think this is a really, really interesting concept for me because being on, you know, a place like a college campus where you see so much social connection happen, it makes me question a little bit, what does true connection mean, right? I think you see a lot of, you know, and I'll give an example of myself here as an extrovert, right? Obviously meeting a lot of people on the basketball court or at the gym or just in my classes. I'm somebody who tends to, put myself out there a little bit more, just talk to people, which is great. But does that really— is that the same thing as connection? I don't think so, right? Now, what's the difference between having a lot of friendships or acquaintances as opposed to finding true human connection? And what kind of that connection do people need? Does that vary? Is that dependent on your personality? Or is there kind of a blueprint that we all need, and that's something we should all strive to maybe achieve.

Generally speaking, or broadly speaking, I think that having one interaction with a person a day, having one interaction with a person whom we have a relationship where we hear them, they hear us, it's what is called reciprocal, it's a back and forth, that there is caring concern over our best interests, that's the kind of relationship that we're talking about here with the social connection. And that is, in the workbook, we describe it as kind of a garden, thinking of it in those terms, is we're really trying to nurture these positive, healthy relationships. Because, you know, using that metaphor, weeds grow really easily. We can find times around other humans. That oftentimes isn't a big, a big issue. You know, you're in college. It's pretty easy to be around people, but is it a connected situation? Are these people— do they care about us? Do we care about them? Do we feel positively after our interactions with them? These kind of things. You know, Rose is not a rose is not a rose. I mean, this is not something where it's just if you're around people, you're— that's a connection. That, that's not it at all. It has to have that aspect of it where it's a back and forth and that there is caring that's involved.

I want to talk a little bit about facilitating that kind of a relationship, right? Because like you mentioned, right, I'm on a college campus where I see connection all the time, right? And as an extrovert who hangs around with a lot of extroverts, I see this in a lot of people as well. And it brings me back to a conversation I had with a friend the other day. This isn't somebody I see so often, but just, you know, one of those people that you see down the hall or just lives in the same apartment building or has the same class as you. And, you know, it was just a later night and we were both kind of studying and he just told me kind of out of the blue, like, hey man, you know, we often hang out with a lot of people and do a lot of things together and whatnot, but it's hard for me to feel connected, right? And that was actually the word he used, which is kind of funny because it ties directly into this this week here, this part in your book, but you know, for people who are social, for people who are extroverted, tend to have a lot of exposure to people outside, it's hard often for them to facilitate maybe as deep or meaningful of a relationship, right? High-fiving or fist-bumping someone on campus is not the same thing as a deep and meaningful relationship, right? And I wanna ask you almost two questions here. Do you feel like it's harder And this may be a hot take here, but do you feel like it's harder for extroverts in this way to even create a deep and meaningful relationship? And if so, how do you feel like one should go about that kind of a process, especially when they enter a new and challenging environment?

Well, I think that it could be, in fact, the case for many people who are extroverted. The idea behind introversion and extroversion is what is our energy source. And so those who are introverted get their energy from time to themselves. People who are extroverted, it's the opposite, is they get their energy from being around other people. I think that the key aspect of the kind of healthy relationships we're talking about— another way to put it is the person, the other person is the main thing. Right? Like when we're interacting with them, they're the main thing. We're the main thing. It's not a means to an end. It's not a means to, I just gotta be around people. It is a connection where, no, it's this person that's the main thing. As I said, and vice versa. I think that that is the key aspect of it. I think that if I'm extroverted, I think it's good to take stock of that. There's nothing wrong with the fist bumps and the high fives. You know, that can be fun in and of itself. It's always fun. I always tell, you know, my kids when I'm talking about social skills, I think the best social skill in the world is treat people like you like them. We all like to feel liked. You know, it's like the show before your time called Cheers. That was the theme song, you know, is, you know, where everybody knows your name. So just those things are great in terms of really connected relationships. I do think we need to take stock of it. I think it, it's not just, you know, who am I going to party with? Who am I going to just do this with? It's like, is there a part of this that it's that relationship is the thing?

I love it. I love it. I think this is so interesting because it ties into the fact that we don't need a bunch of friends or tons of people constantly around us right now. Obviously, there's people that are comfortable in large groups and large crowds. There's some that aren't. You know, you're extroverts, introverts, who gains energy from what types of interactions. But at the end of the day, right, all you really need is a few people that you're very, very close with that you can confide in, that you can be vulnerable with. But, you know, for all of us out there, and obviously I think it's easy to look at our lives and be like, oh, you know, I have friends, I don't need advice like this, or, you know, I have this checkbox already filled out. But when we talk about connection habits, and, you know, I'll kind of wrap this up with this final question here because I know our time is running out, right? But Um, when we look at the friends that we have, the social circles that we're a part of, the people that are in our network, we don't need maybe that to be expanded. Um, you know, I'm sure there's people out there who do, but for the most part, we have a social circle, we have people, but we need a couple of small connection habits that just make you deepen those relationships. Maybe, you know, and I think a lot of people don't know how to go about that process, especially in the different stages of their lives. Right. I think, in my age, in my stage, it's maybe a little bit easier because you don't have as many responsibilities. You may have more free time, you have more things in common, which is the fact that you go to the same school and you root for the same sports teams and, you know, you play the same games or whatever, right? But at the end of the day, when it comes to my generation, your generation, different ages, different stages in life, what are a couple of the small connection habits that you can, you know, look at and tell our viewers or our listeners here to start to adopt to build more deep connections in their lives.

Absolutely. The first thing I want to say is just in terms of the social connection, I was interested one time I did a few weeks ago, actually, it wasn't that long ago. I did a thing with AI when I was looking into it and having it look at these things. And one of the things I found interesting is it was referring to the fact that obviously these concepts are out there. But the one that was relatively unique about this workbook and this approach was social, social connection. And I found that really interesting because it is— we are pack animals. When you look back at our ancestors, you had to have people to survive. That was the only way. Our bodies are the same. We still have this need. And so it's just so essential that we attend to it. In terms of your question, I think that one of the, the research-wise, they say research, they say frequency and proximity. We have to be around people. We have to be around them with some frequency to develop our relationships. With the ones that we have, I think it's really important if we can take a posture of interest in others, if we can take a posture of genuinely focusing on their experience and that being reciprocated, that being given back to us. But if we can do that, then we're really nurturing the relationship. It's, it's just like when you meet someone and they remember your name immediately. You know, you've met them a time or two and they ask you questions related to the conversation. We feel good. Our connection grows when people are, are showing care, are showing concern. I think a lot of times when people are isolated, they, and particularly if they're anxious over the social interactions, they get so focused on their experience that they lose sight of one great way to address that. Let me focus on them. Let me focus. Let me show interest. Let me do these things. So I think that's it. And then getting back to the frequency thing, it's just really important to nurture relationships through time. We're busy. And sometimes maybe that means we can't spend an evening with people. We, you know, can't do the things that we would like to do. We can still check in. We can still check in, catch up, do these things and make it a priority.

Absolutely. Absolutely. That's so cool. Dr. Campbell, thank you so much. I feel like that note, especially the one of being a better listener and just trying to take a bit of time out for somebody else. Is probably the best thing because we look at connection and we feel like, oh, this is something I need, this is something people need to take their time out to give me, and I don't feel like people have done enough to give me that social connection. Whereas in reality, it's just about how much are you able to give to that person, you know? And hopefully that facilitates some sort of a connection you can look at in the future. Um, I think this reminds me of something, you know, someone once told me a while ago, and that was that every relationship shouldn't be 50/50. It should be 90/10, and both people should be trying to be the 90, you know. You should both be trying to put in more effort than the other. I feel like weeks 3 and 4 here, movement and connection, they sound simple on the surface, but they're so powerful, right? Movement, I mean, it changes your entire state of being. It changes your, not just your physical state, but also your mental health and connection, of course, changes your mental health, but also changes the way that you maybe perceive the world, the way that you interact with the others around you and the way that you form new relationships for the rest of your personal and professional life. And when those two are off, life feels a lot heavier than it needs to. So to everyone listening, right? I don't think you need some sort of an extreme workout plan or a huge friend group, right? I think what Dr. Campbell, you're saying is that just start with one small movement habit, whether that's waking up a little earlier and just taking a walk first thing in the morning, or, um, you know, whatever that may look like for you. And, and one small connection habit, increasing your proximity to the people that maybe you want to be around, the people you may want to learn from, and start listening a little bit better. Um, you know, I think the goal here from what I'm hearing is consistency, right? Not intensity. Next episode, We'll finish off with week 5, consumption, and the part everyone needs, right? How to maintain these sorts of healthy habits when your life gets chaotic, stressful, or unpredictable. Dr. Campbell, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been an incredible episode.

Thank you so much. Look forward to finishing up.

Absolutely. And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in to Readers. We'll see you in part 3. And until then, keep on learning, keep on changing, and keep on growing. We'll see you next time!