Our Primal 5: The Simple 5-Week Guide To Self-Care (Part 1)

Welcome to Readers, the podcast for the lifelong learner. Join us on our weekly dose of wisdom where we talk about the real-life lessons and applications of books. Enjoy! Welcome back to Readers, everyone. Today we're starting a brand new series on a book called Our Primal 5: The Simple 5-Week Guide to Self-Care with clinical psychologist Dr. Matthew Campbell. Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Campbell. It's a pleasure to have you here.

Thank you, it's a pleasure to be here with you.

Absolutely. And you know, before we kind of begin, I'd love to just give it up to you here and ask you to introduce yourself, a little bit about your background, a little bit about, you know, what you've worked on, the research you've done, what kind of led you to write this book, and, um, yeah, just a simple overview of the book itself.

Absolutely. So, um, as you said, my name is Matt Campbell, or Dr. Matt Campbell. Um, I've been a licensed psychologist for over 20 years and have worked, do, done a lot of psychotherapy and as well as psychological assessments. I came to where, where I, where I've gotten with the book and our Primal Five. I got to it through years and years of working with people and noticing this pattern, repetitive pattern with my clients where they were, they were depleted. They were lacking in some of the most basic areas of human functioning. Those being, you know, getting out in the sun, sleep, moving their bodies, having meaningful connections with people, what they're putting in their body. And when I started to look at this more and more and thinking through it, it was just the recognition that much of the problem that that most all of us really have is that the environment we live in, the cultural moment we're in, technology, one of the consequences of that with all of the benefits, but one of the consequences of that is it's taken us further from our basic biological needs, the things that our bodies were made for. And so as a result of that, we often feel, as I mentioned before, we feel depleted, we feel fatigued, we have difficulty with emotional regulation, our focus is off, anxiety, all of these things that by no means is this the only cause of it, but it's certainly part of the human foundation. And when that human foundation is shaky, those things that we're predisposed to are going to be more likely to show up and affect us.

Yeah, I love it. I mean, I think, you know, before we kind of get into this book here, I want to set expectations for everyone who's listening right away, right? This is not your typical kind of trendy self-care type of book, right? This is almost delving into the depths of your basic human maintenance, right? The stuff that almost seems so basic and surface level that people skip it until they feel anxious or foggy, drained, unmotivated, you know, and then they just start looking for some sorts of complicated answers or medication or whatever else that can kind of fix them. And I think the whole point of this workbook, from my understanding, is that for a lot of people, right, The fastest and most effective improvements just come from regulating your body first, right? Um, not because your problems aren't real, but because when that foundation is shaky, everything just feels a lot harder than it needs to. So, you know, today this episode is part 1 and we're covering weeks 1 and 2. Uh, this book is divided up into 5 weeks and weeks 1 is sunlight and week 2 is sleep. So essentially all about getting that internal clock back online. Stabilizing your energy, your mood, and how to stop waking up feeling like you're already behind. So without further ado, Matt, let's get into it.

Sounds great.

Awesome. Now, you know, before we get into sunlight and sleep here, I want these listeners to understand the bigger claim you have here, that for a lot of people, right, improved mental health starts with improved physical regulation. Now, this sounds very simple, it's easy to say, but it's almost controversial today because people almost seem to be looking for complicated answers. You know, when they talk to psychologists, as I'm sure you're aware of, you know, what made you confident? And I know you touched on this a little bit in this intro here, but what made you confident that these very basic pillars, something like sunlight that people don't even think about, is, you know, are often the biggest levers for mood and emotional stability?

A lot of that was, was experience. A lot of that was going through it as a psychologist. The first time you meet with a, with a client, I call it— I was in my training, we work with clients, not patients, but I guess you, you could use either. But in working with clients and going through background, so consistently I was hearing people describe these different areas and how they were depleted. And I think you said one of the things that you said that I find so important. I say it and you said it. And again, the importance can't be understated, is that these are very straightforward things. These are, these are things that, that we all know, that, that we've been taught. We don't need to, to hear these. These aren't revelatory. But interestingly, there are also things that the great majority of people aren't hitting on, aren't doing to the extent that we know our bodies need. When we look at these 5, for example, we're talking today about sunlight and sleep. About a third of people are sleep deprived. You know, they have inadequate amounts of sleep they're getting. So often with our activities, we're indoors, climate-controlled environments, very limited sunlight. And we know from the data and the literature how impactful these things are. But, and then across the board, the other 2 segments that we're going to do also involving things that, you know, we really have so many deficiencies in these regards. And oftentimes, you know, 3 or more of these 5 areas, there will be a deficiency in any particular person.

Yeah, I think it's interesting because we've heard a lot of this advice for so long. You know, our parents always told us to, you know, just go out and play rather than being on the phone, or, you know, get our full 8 hours of sleep and I feel like it's not really that people don't know about this. It's just almost that the modern environment we live in today, the lifestyles that we've chosen to live, it makes the basics hard to actually act through. And I want to ask, you know, I know we're in different generations here, but why do you feel like this modern life makes these very basic things that we know about, you know, we know about the circadian rhythm, we know about the optimal amount of sleep. And, you know, as research comes out more and more, we just find that we should turn back to the basics. But why do you feel like the modern life that a a lot of us have chosen to live makes living these basics a lot harder than it should be.

I think a lot of it has to do with short versus long term. And as humans, we're often programmed— I mean, it's part of our wiring is about maximize pleasure, minimize pain, a very short-term focus. We live in a world where there are so many options, so many choices, so many Band-Aids that we can put on deficiencies. That are not going to really address those things, but in the short term, we're gonna get some relief. We can chug coffee or one of these hypercaffeinated beverages. We can do all sorts of things that are a short-term fix, but there are so many choices, so many more deliberate choices that we need to make to be healthy. Whereas for our ancestors, they had to do these things to survive. They didn't do these things and they didn't survive. For us, We have to be very intentional and really make choices. And you mentioned your generation. Your generation has— they've grown up. You all have grown up. These things are second nature to you. And so even more so than, say, my generation, middle-aged generation, we grew up at a time where all of these things weren't available. Many of these things weren't available and weren't choices. But for you all, They very much are. And I think without having had that prior experience of what things might be like without a phone at our, you know, within arm's length at all times, that we can get instant entertainment. For you all, it really, again, takes a concerted effort.

Yeah, yeah. I think one of the, you know, the first week that you talk about here with sunlight, right, is so interesting to me because I think a lot of this is— when I say common knowledge, right, it's we know that a certain level of it is good for us. Obviously implementing that in our lives and kind of trying to make it a regular thing is definitely another challenge. But this whole week 1 that's about sunlight, right, I think that was such a shock to me. You read a lot of self-help books and you look at a lot of this kind of material and you see so many things in terms of what you should practice, what you should get more of, and habits and all of that. But a lot of people underestimate this, I feel like. It almost sounds so simple to understand, but you know, when you realize that you wake up, you go inside, you stay inside most of the day, and at night, you know, most of the people just blast their eyes with screens, whether that's watching a couple episodes before going to sleep or scrolling on Instagram or whatever that looks like, you know. And I think just in plain language, you know, what does sunlight actually do for the brain and the body that you feel like is so important to put in this 5 here? Um, what does it really do that affects your mood, your energy, and your performance?

Well, I think that when we're talking about sunlight, it is the anchor for, as you mentioned earlier, you, you referenced our circadian rhythm. It is the anchor. It is so essential for our energy and our mood and you know, in concert with what we're also discussing today for our sleep. These are— these things are significantly affected by sunlight. And to your point, I couldn't agree with you anymore about sunlight. Of all the ones that are in the workbook, sunlight being one that may be minimized more than any of the others. I think I'm guilty of that too. I live in Mississippi, you live in Texas, we are not in short supply of sunlight. But you speak to someone, you know, who lives in the Northwest, they would have a different take on that. They have less sunlight and they definitely feel the effects of it. I have siblings that live up there, and when I was talking about this, they weren't surprised to hear sunlight as one of these 5, not whatsoever. But I think that, as you said, there are so many options for us to be inside. Again, coming at it from the angle that the human animal, these most basic aspects of our functioning, we were not made to be sitting inside all the time. One of the things that was really eye-opening to me when I was doing the research for the workbook. And of course, this is not going to apply to many people. It will for some, but for your audience. But one of the things that really hit home to me when I was, was looking at this were these studies that have been replicated. So multiple studies have found a similar effect, but it was for people who were hospitalized with bipolar disorder. And what was found was that those people who had a room with a window had a 4.5 shorter day stay at the hospital than those who were in rooms without a window.

My goodness.

Wow. The impact of sun on us is enormous. It is such a fundamental human need.

Yeah. But, you know, let's talk real life, right? I mean, most people aren't trying to ignore sunlight on purpose. I mean, I think obviously we talked about how it is understated, it's underemphasized, but at the end of the day, right, our routines are not made to optimize the amount of sunlight we get. We sit in the classroom, in our offices, in the car, at home. I mean, everything is essentially almost kind of planned out to avoid that. And especially in this Dallas heat that I'm sitting inside from right here, a lot of people do what they can to avoid it as much as possible. I think, you know, when I think of my university experience, the most sunlight I really get is on my way to class, you know, and most of the people on my campus use electric scooters anyway. So, you know, for a lot of our listeners that look at their own daily lives that are, you know, able to reflect on their own routines and realize that, hey, you know, my day is not optimized for sunlight, What is the simplest kind of addition to the routine that you've seen people either stick to consistently, that you've recommended to your clients, or that you've practiced yourself that you feel like, hey, you know, by doing so, I'm not taking time out of my day and, you know, you know, important time out, or it's not very difficult for me to do, but it's able— it's something that I can do consistently, and it's something that's been a positive addition to, you know, you or your patient stays?

The simplest thing that we can do, which is actually optimal, is when you get up in the morning, if the sun is rising or has risen, when you get— say you get a cup of coffee or whatever that is in your morning routine, if you can just step outside, you can be on the porch, wherever, getting some sun. If you're having that cup of coffee, perhaps, that many people do, or whatever that is, and spending that time getting sun at that time, that really is optimal. For myself, I get a great deal of benefit. I walk my dogs every morning. That's just part of my routine. And that really works for me and helps set my day up, and I really enjoy it. But just that, that initial part of the day, morning sunlight is the ideal. It is the ideal because when we refer to, you know, the circadian rhythm, this part of the human functioning is that that helps set the circadian rhythm, that morning sunlight. So it really is the ideal. And then you're talking about, you know, Dallas, Texas or Austin, Texas and the oppressive heat that you all get. The nice thing about the morning time is it's not going to be quite as hot as 2:00 PM.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think that's such a universal thing that so many people can kind of try and encompass in their day. You know, when I think even about my own living in Texas, which like I mentioned already is a pretty hot place, morning sunlight, something I think everyone can kind of introduce as part of their day. I think the biggest struggle with that is not actually getting out, it's, it's getting up in the first place. And I think that's a perfect segue into week 2 here, right? Sleep. I think this is the one Everyone knows matters. We talk about this so much. There's more and more research and studies that are coming out about, you know, the importance and effect of sleep, but it almost feels like people still treat it as a luxury. And I think I can definitely attest to that as somebody who lives on a university campus. And I think the scary thing is people normalize being underslept for years, and it's almost glorified in our society today where people will be like, man, you only got I don't know, like 5 hours of sleep and that just means you must be so busy or you must be prioritizing so many other things. And in reality, you know, for the majority of us who are, you know, under-prioritizing that sleep, it's not because we just really couldn't get it. It's just because we didn't prioritize it enough. And I'd love to hear a little bit about your take on what that deepest misunderstanding people have is about sleep. What are the biggest problems that you've seen them fall into it with or because of? Uh, and, and why is it so that even though we know how important it is, so few people actually get enough?

I really like one of the things you mentioned because I do think that there can almost be a credibility, like, I work so hard that I can't sleep.

Yeah.

As if there is a positive aspect to that. Uh, so I do, I think that that can be part of it. I also think we are so accustomed to sleep deprivation. In so many cases, I think that that's something that people have grown accustomed to. That's universal with, with these 5 things that the workbook goes over is that we are so accustomed to being deficient in these areas. It's all, well, it's all we know. And we are our own basis of comparison. If it's normal to us, we have this perception that it's normal. This is just the way things are. And don't realize how much better they could be with improvement in these different areas. In terms of the mistakes or, or where people struggle, one of them, and perhaps the thing we hear the most frequently with sleep, and it is appropriately so with how important it is, has to do with a schedule. Having something consistent, again, getting back I keep saying circadian rhythm, but that 24-hour daily cycle, sleep is easily loaded into that. If we can get a routine going in the evening at approximately the same time, that's something we often don't do that is extremely important for our sleep as well as, and perhaps this is much less appreciated for sleep, is having a similar wake time. That also is very important in creating that structure and routine for our sleep.

Yeah, I, I think when I talk to a lot of people who struggle with, you know, sleeping, I mean, me, myself included, you know, I don't think I'm somebody who struggles to go to sleep, but I'm definitely someone who struggles to incorporate that schedule like you mentioned into my life, or at least when it comes to sleep. And it's funny because I live and die by my schedule. You know, my Google Calendar is probably the most important thing of my day, But it's funny because going to sleep, and I don't wanna keep going back to this university thing here, but it is a reality that it almost feels like I'm so alienated from what kind of lifestyle I used to live in high school or back when I was at home. And I think coming back for spring break like I am now, at the time of recording this episode here, it's funny because the day here is ending at like 10, maybe 11, and my parents are like, "All right, we're gonna go to sleep." And I'm like, oh, you know, I just, I just finished whatever I needed to do. Like now it's actually time to, you know, live with the rest of my day or hang out with friends or whatever else that looks like. And it's funny because the most common complaint I get from a lot of my friends, even those who have days where they're like, oh, I'm going to try and get my sleep early, is my brain just won't shut off.

Right?

People are exhausted. People have lived a full day. They've done the work, they've done whatever they need to, but their mind is still sprinting. And they, and they just feel frustrated because they feel like they're doing everything right, but they still can't sleep. Now, I think I'd love for you to address that kind of a crowd of people who realizes how important it is, wants to go to sleep early, but not only struggles with incorporating it into a schedule, but just feels like they wouldn't be able to sleep that early. What's usually happening underneath that, and what would you recommend them to do to actually fix that?

The first thing about what you said there is something very important across the board here, which is, and I think it's actually something that turns people off to these different areas. It's the idea that we need to be perfect. Like, if we're going to work at our sleep, if we're going to try to address some of these things, then we have to do it just right. We have to follow these instructions or these guidelines or suggestions or what have you. But there's also this thing called the real world and real life, and we can't be perfect with all these things. And that's fine. That's just the way it is. I think that when you're talking about people who are having a hard time getting their brain to slow down and things like that, even if you weren't able, let's say it's not possible you know, you're in academics, you're doing something like that, your schedule, maybe it's someone who has a certain work schedule that doesn't allow them to have the consistency to get that bedtime. We can do some of the things. I think one of the more important things with sleep is having a routine, a 30-minute to an hour routine prior to going to bed. What that does is I guess you could say subconsciously, it's telling our brain, it's telling our body that it's getting ready to go to bed. It's getting ready to go to sleep. And so during that 30 minutes to an hour, we really don't want to be doing highly stimulating things. We don't want to be, you know, our face in a phone or other things. And certainly social media, those algorithms are just going to You know, they're, they're made to keep us on them. So they're going to be stimulating. They're going to pull us in. But we want to have a calm 30-minute to an hour routine that is signaling to our body, that's what we're trying to do. That's what we're moving towards. So that can help a great deal. But then also with our having a difficult time with our brain slowing down, reducing the stimulation in anticipation of, of getting in the bed is very important.

What would you say to people who talk about this kind of night owl, uh, morning bird kind of example here? And I think me, myself included here, I definitely struggle to wake up early in the mornings. Right. Um, I mean, unless I have to, I don't know, catch a flight to a vacation or something, you probably are not going to find me waking up first thing in the morning. Um, I think, and of course, yeah, that's a bit of a, just, I haven't made as much emphasis on that as I should. But there's definitely people who find themselves more productive at night, late night, as opposed to first thing in the morning. Do you feel like, do you feel like that's just a myth? Do you feel like that's, you know, the reality for a lot of people? And if so, you know, for a lot of these people who kind of feel a lot more productive at night when everyone's asleep and they're able to just kind of lock in and get their work done, but then struggle to wake up earlier in the morning. What would you say to these people? Because, you know, I'm sure they would end up struggling with getting that early morning sunlight. They would obviously struggle with maybe getting adequate sleep, uh, cuz the world doesn't run on that time. And I think in relation to their productivity, how would you say they should deal with that?

I think the answer to that really depends on the person and on the situation. I think first of all, for what you were saying, there are people who have sleep phase problems. That are consistent with what you're describing, like their body is not falling into sleep, isn't ready for sleep until later. Really, that's not necessarily going to be a problem if their schedule permits. Where it becomes a problem is the person who does need to be up early in the morning to do something. And then yes, we absolutely need to figure out something to address that. Yeah. In terms of sleep phase, there's a really great technique, therapeutic technique called— the acronym is CBT-I, cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia— that is a very strong treatment approach if it's genuinely a problem for someone that really tries to help reset that clock. And as I'm saying, it's a very effective approach for someone who this is a real significant problem for. But otherwise, You know, for the kind of person who finally has time to themselves in order, you know, that they can actually get things done and such, it is possible to get that done in the morning too. Many times that they can find that time to themselves to be able to do those things that could probably be a bit more optimal for, for their day to be able to do so, to really try to prioritize the sleep. But again, I think it's very individual dependent. I wish there was one overall answer I could give for that, but, but it does really depend on the individual.

Gotcha, makes a lot of sense. And, you know, I know we're coming to the end of our time here, so I'll ask you one kind of final question here. I think, you know, here on Readers, we prioritize being able to implement something actionable into our lives with every book, every episode. And I know we've touched on a lot points here, whether that was, you know, go to sleep at a decent hour that's in line with your schedule, or, you know, try to reduce a certain level of stimulus before bed, or have a routine, or even, you know, upon waking up, get some sunlight by taking a walk first thing in the morning or something like that, you know. And I think obviously we've touched on a lot of these kinds of habits, but if there's just one habit, one or two habits that you could recommend for everyone listening in on this episode to kind of do, whether that's a habit shift, a, you know, a physical shift, a mindset shift, a schedule shift. What would that change be? Just so our listeners listening to this here can, I don't know, have something to write about in their journal or diary tonight, or that they can act on tomorrow morning.

One of them you've already mentioned, I think, in particular when we're talking about sunlight and sleep, the number one thing that combines the both of them again would be that morning sunlight that I would suggest. From a wider lens perspective, I think the appreciation that these things require more of an intentional, effortful focus that even though we know them, that doesn't make them easy to implement. I think that that's very important. Our goal is not perfection. Our goal is progress and improvement. Those would be the things that I would want people to keep in mind more than any other.

Love it. Love it. Dr. Campbell, thank you so much for walking us through weeks 1 and 2, sunlight and sleep. I feel like this is really the foundation that a lot of our listeners needed. It's almost humbling how much better your life can start to feel when you actually start with the basics and do them consistently. I feel like a lot of the compound growth that we see in people who are trying to achieve their goals starts from something like this. So again, thank you so much for, for hopping on this podcast, and I'm really looking forward to episode 2 here.

I am too. Look forward to it. Thank you.

Absolutely. And you know, to everyone listening here, don't overthink it, right? I think if there's one thing we've touched on here, you don't need some sort of a perfect routine. There's no, you know, one size fits all here, but you just need one or two small habits that you can repeat every day, every week, especially on the days that you don't feel like it. And I think that's probably one of my biggest takeaways from reading this book and getting into this. Next episode, we'll be moving into weeks 3 and 4, movement and social connection. How to change how you feel, your mental state, your physical state, by changing what your body does and how it moves every day, as well as the people you're connected to and how that affects your mental state as well. So thank you all once again for tuning in to Readers. We'll see you in the next one. And until then, keep on learning, keep on changing, and keep on growing. We'll see you next time.