Our Primal 5: The Simple 5-Week Guide To Self-Care (Part 3)

Welcome to Readers, the podcast for the lifelong learner. Join us on our weekly dose of wisdom where we talk about the real life lessons and applications of books. Enjoy. Welcome back to Readers, everyone. This is part 3, the final episode in our Primal 5, the new series with Dr. Matthew Campbell. Welcome back to the podcast, Matthew. It's a pleasure to have you here, and I'm looking forward to this final discussion.

Yeah, me too. Thanks for having me.

Absolutely. You know, over the last few conversations, we've talked about a lot of things. We've talked about sunlight, we've talked about sleep, movement, and social connections, right? The core habits that kind of help regulate your body, steady your mind, and also create a healthier baseline for daily life. And so today we're going to be closing the series with week 5, replacing junk. And I think obviously this sounds pretty simple and it's just like, oh, you know, one week, what are we really going to talk about? But I think this means a lot more than just food, right? It, it It means taking a look at everything from obviously, you know, the food and drinks that we consume, but also the substances and information that we consume every day, right? The things that quietly shape how we feel, we think, and we function. And really this episode is about something even bigger, right? How that change actually lasts. Because, you know, the truth is most people don't really struggle because they never begin in the first place. You know, they struggle because sometimes they do begin with good intentions, but they They hit a stressful week, they fall out of rhythm, they start to believe that they failed. I think I can personally attest to that as someone who tried waking up at 6 AM after that first discussion and failed miserably the second week. I think your work, Dr. Campbell, here pushes against that idea. The goal is not a certain level of perfection. The goal is building compounding habits that are simple enough, realistic enough, and human enough that you can keep returning to over time. So today we're gonna be talking a little bit about what to remove, what to replace, and how to actually make healthy change stick in real life. We can begin whenever you're ready.

I'm ready, let's go.

Awesome. So let's start with the core idea behind this section, right? Because I think a lot of people know that they have unhealthy habits, but I'm not sure if they fully understand why those habits feel so powerful or just so alluring, right? I mean, I think in week 5, you frame junk as something that hijacks our primal wiring. I think, You know, what, what do you think people misunderstand most about why either, whether that's junk food, social media, alcohol, or even the news can just feel so hard to resist?

Right. And, and we refer to it as junk because as you said, it's, it's hijacking the primal aspects, our, our primal functioning. And so for the most part, this has to do with hitting dopamine. And hitting these, you know, short-term pleasure areas of our brain or fear or other things that are used that are very basic and essential to us as humans. And these different things kind of approximate them. So they give us something similar, like, for example, our foods filled with processed sugar and things like that. And of course, you know, we hear that. And I think oftentimes when we hear things like that, it can almost sound paternalistic. It can sound like, you know, maybe too goody two shoes or something like that because it's, oh goodness, they're talking about our food and all this. But, you know, the message is not, again, that we're made to be perfect. We— that's impossible. But what we're trying to do is get better at, for example, with food, trying to consume as naturally as we can. We're gonna have days where we're, you know, the time is short and the wallet is light and we're gonna just try to grab something quick and cheap. But for the most part, we want to just try to recognize that we want the natural benefits of things rather than these ones that are kind of just created.

Yeah, I got you. I think This really makes me wonder about what's going on underneath these habits almost, right? Because if I feel like people aren't just reaching for this sort of junk for no reason, right? Whether that's, you know, the news or just social media in general, food, anything. I think, and let me know if I'm looking too deeply into this maybe, but I feel like there has to be some sort of almost psychological principle or, you know, something underlying, underneath the behavior, right? Whether that's, you know, a need or seeking comfort, escape, stimulation, right? Maybe it's numbness or something else, right? What do you feel like is really the deeper psychological almost reason that we're so attracted to these things that we know for a fact in, you know, long-term are not going to benefit us? And often we even want to stop, but it's just, you know, it's just so easy to, I don't know, pick that piece of candy off the shelf or, you know, finish the last cookie in the jar or scroll on Instagram or TikTok or whatever, right? A few minutes before class or in the elevator or whatever that may look like, right? Knowing that knowing that it's bad and even wanting to change it, why is that so hard? And does that really tie into a deeper psychological need somewhere down that we don't even know?

Well, what, what I'm trying to do in terms of the, our Primal Five and the workbook, I'm trying to kind of keep it simple and keep it uniform. Things that we know that for just about everyone are goals or things to work towards. To your— when you're describing a more deeper underlying psychological process, I certainly think the answer to that is often yes. I, you know, I think that really you can actually just go to the principle that as humans, we seek to maximize pleasure and minimize pain. The minimize pain part is going to often be avoidance. It's going to often be, you know, getting away from a painful feeling. And we hear that with all sorts of things. You know, people think of that with substances. But listen, you hear the term comfort food. Well, what does comfort food mean? You know, is that broccoli? No, that's not, you know, vegetables. That's not— it's food that just kind of, you know, again, it's comforting. You know, it feels good and things like that. And so I certainly think that these different areas of consumption load into that desire for both the immediate, and it's the immediate in terms of maximize pleasure, minimize pain.

Yeah, I think something interesting here that you include is that you're not just telling people to cut things out entirely, right? I think there's a lot of people out there who will just tell you like, you know, have discipline, stop eating the, the chocolate or stop eating the sugar right after you know, dinner or whatnot. Don't eat too late, wake up early, go to sleep early, you know, all that type of stuff. But I feel like as opposed to just telling them to cut things out, you're asking them to build something better in its place, right? Um, you don't just say to stop the bad habit, you emphasize replacing it. Why is replacement so much more effective than self-denial? And how do you, you know, how would you suggest people even go about that process, right? Because I think something that we've seen through a lot of works, whether that's Atomic Habits or a lot of these self-help books that have gone big is we've realized that, okay, people have decided on a certain habit or change they want to implement. And then they've tried to implement systems that then kind of give them just a bit of, you know, intrinsic motivation right at the jump, you know, instant gratification almost that will get them to start a behavior or habit that then has a lot more delayed gratification responses later, but it's hard to get that in the moment, right? How would you suggest going about that process, and why is replacing so much more effective than, you know, um, just eliminating?

Well, I think that replacement is absolutely essential. You know, we can't not do something. We have to do something. You know, we can't just stop doing this behavior. I just can't stop eating this category of food, or watching this thing. I have to have something to replace that behavior. And when I'm looking into doing that, that's when I try to take stock of, well, what is this doing for me? What am I getting from this thing? And then I try to problem solve and think of what other things might be able to do that for me. The reality is, and, and this is— needs to be said, is that whatever those replacements are, we need to give them a chance because we're doing what we're doing for a reason. It's really giving us something. That's why I so admire people who can stop, can stop doing unhealthy things because it's really, it's a challenge for us as humans that even if we understand that this thing is not good for us in the long term, We know in the short term we've already opened that door. We know it's going to help us right now. And so it's that the part of it with replacement is this is going to give me something similar. And if I do it repetitively, then that can help me tremendously in terms of cementing change. If I'm not doing anything, if I'm just allowing the discomfort I'm experiencing to just sit there with me that it can lead to all sorts of things. I really want to focus on, okay, what else can I do in this moment? What else can give me some of what I'm looking for?

But how do you really implement those replacement habits or behaviors in your own life, right? I think a lot of people try to talk about these that just sound so ideal. Like, for example, my idea that I'll just start waking up at 6 as opposed to like 9, 9:30 as a college student, you know, like It's just an idea that I had, and it's definitely something I want to still do, want to still work on, right? But for someone who wants to change but keeps failing after a few days, maybe getting discouraged, right? How would you recommend that they choose a replacement behavior, and how do they go about creating a system that's actually sustainable? I think there's a lot of really, really cool resources in the book that I'd recommend a lot of our listeners here check out, right? Whether that's, you know, kind of an example log of things that you want to replace, right? Or even like a mood log and replacement behaviors that you want to implement as opposed to an area of consumption, things like that. And so obviously that's something I highly recommend everyone check out, but even when looking at your own life, maybe you've implemented some of these into your own daily life or your kids' lives or people that you've seen do this effectively. How would you recommend someone like me or you know, just anyone in general actually go about implementing these sustainable replacement behaviors? I know there's no, you know, one-size-fits-all magic bullet that you can give me here, but if you can at least walk us through a mental framework of how to find something that is real and sustainable, or at least a place to start, I think that would be great for a lot of our listeners.

Well, I think what we need to start with is setting ourselves up for success. I think that for you, for example, if I typically get up at, 9:00, 9:30, and I'm saying I'm going to get up at 6:00. Okay, well, maybe we change that. Maybe we change that to a few days a week that I'm going to try to do that. Or maybe we change that to how about I start with 8:00 or 7:30 or something that's not such a shock to the system, you know. So, so maybe I try in a more reasonable, do something more reasonable. Maybe I put a carrot for myself. That, hey, this is what I'm going to do when I get up at this time, you know, and it's something that, you know, I can only do at this time. Like, for example, I like getting up early because it's a time where there's more free time, you know, available at that point. I can do some other things. But in terms of that replacement, and as you know, you referenced the workbook and we have a number of ideas in there, you know, just general suggestions for people that they can do. To help with that. And I think that again, it's trying an approximation. So instead of that candy bar, maybe it's a fruit, maybe it's something else. It's replacing it. They both have sugar in it, one natural, one's not natural. But trying those kind of things can be so beneficial. And I know this sounds nerdy, but reading as opposed to, you know, watching television or, you know, something of this nature, but And that doesn't mean we can't, again, to emphasize, that doesn't mean we can't look at our phone, watch television, things like that. But it's the amount that we're doing these things. That's really where the problem is, is it's just in the amount. I mean, that, you know, mentioning screens, it's pretty remarkable how much time we spend on screens. And I think that simply planning some other things to do with our day, we can actually find and experience how much different things can be, how much more positive things can be when we get away from them.

I think one thing I want to emphasize is that this is not always— obviously, right, change is not a journey of just like constant rainbows and roses, right? Obviously, once you start changing habits, discomfort does show up pretty quickly, um, and I think a lot of times that makes people second-guess whether they're doing something that's sustainable or even the right thing in general, right? I think you mentioned maybe me waking up that early is not sustainable, or maybe I should set a more realistic goal at least to start with, right? But, you know, in your tips for change, you also say people do need to accept discomfort, right? How can someone like me or anyone else trying to imbibe certain qualities like that into their lives or habits, how can they tell the difference between healthy discomfort that comes with a certain level of growth, you know, pushing themselves into the challenge zone. And, you know, the difference between that and a sign that, you know, maybe my plan is a little too unrealistic or unsustainable. Where do you draw that line and how do you know when to keep pushing and how do you know when to maybe take a step back and reflect?

Well, that's a tremendously important part of the change process. The, the example that I often use is if, if I were to ask you today, if you were to go into the gym, if you were to go into the gym and you walk out of the gym and you feel the exact same way as when you walked in, what would you say about that workout?

Probably wasn't very good.

Why?

You didn't push yourself too much, right?

Because you're not sweating or you're not experiencing any fatigue, those kind of things, because those are uncomfortable, but they're indicators that we did something. So change inevitably involves discomfort. You know, any change that we engage in will involve discomfort. It's growth. Growth is, you know, discomfort is going to be part of growth. And so I think a lot of times we can just tell, for example, You know, if I'm, you know, feeling kind of that urge for sweets or things like that, hey, that's, that's part of it. You know, that, that's part of it. We know that logically, we know that moving in this direction is healthy. And that's the key of it. We're going to be uncomfortable cutting down, especially your generation, younger generation is going to really fear that they're missing something. You know, if they're not on social media or what, you know, one of these platforms as much, that's going to be uncomfortable. We understand that. But that acceptance that there will be discomfort is essential in the change process. And I think generally speaking, we know, we know that these are things like especially these, you know, 5 areas, we know that, okay, drinking more water, right? You know, spending less time, you know, watching or looking at media. I think that one area of consumption that actually is kind of tricky for people oftentimes has to do with news media consumption because I think that we're taught that you want to be informed. You know, we want to be an informed pop— which of course is true, but it wasn't made for the 24-hour news cycle. It wasn't made for when the news has become so commercialized that it's just trying to grab us. It's just trying to grab the views and the clicks and things like that. And so it's often not very evenly provided it's going to tend to evoke outrage or anxiety and things like that. We can be, you know, the rule of thumb I use is, you know, if you, if you did look at the news for 15 minutes in the morning and 15 minutes in the afternoon, you've gotten everything that you need to get from the news.

Yeah. Yeah, that's fair. I actually want to go back to a bit of an earlier conversation we had. I think it was in the last episode where we talked about social connection. What role do you think the people you surround yourself with or the people that you ask to actually hold you accountable to certain processes plays when developing certain new habits? And I know obviously there is the obvious answer of just like, yeah, you know, you are the sum of the 5 people you hang around most with, all of that, right? But when going a bit further into whether that means distancing yourself almost from people who may be making you go further from your goals or making a conscious effort to surround yourself with a diverse group of people so that you can grow in a well-rounded way. You know, what advice do you have to a lot of our listeners who want to build an active environment around them so that they can actually go about that process, right? I mean, at the end of the day, it is all about that choice architecture, right? Whether that's physically, mentally, or, you know, socially.

Well, that is really an insightful question because these things often can be in conflict, right? Because if we've been doing these things and, and that's who we've hung out with, um, and then we want to change some of them, then yeah, that can make us feel that distance, you know, from them, or we're not doing some of these things that are, uh, you know, things that folks do together that are, that kind of create cohesion and shared experiences. I think that by and large, if you think back to that conversation and what we were talking about in terms of what qualifies as healthy connection, I think that healthy connection, you're generally going to find people who you can do other things with too. It doesn't just have to be this one thing. In fact, it may be kind of a sign of an issue if all you can do with them is this one thing that is unhealthy for everyone involved. I think that could be a sign that maybe I need to broaden my group here. Maybe I need to have some other people included in my life that are healthier that, you know, can help me in that way. Because if we're just focused on I want to hang out with these people, then to your point, it could lead to a lot of difficulty in doing some of these other things.

Yeah, I love it. I love it. I think one thing that is so important going through this process is a certain level of awareness of how this all makes you feel, right? I think a lot of it is honestly just instinctual of like, okay, you know, I woke up early all these days in a row. How does that make me feel? How does that affect my productivity, my mood, et cetera, et cetera, right? And I think something I definitely noticed about the workbook that you actually have inside of your book is that it keeps bringing people back to this aspect of awareness, right? Not just their behaviors, but also how they feel while doing it. And so I wanted to ask, how does mood tracking actually help people find things that maybe they might miss, you know, otherwise if they were trying to change a habit without it, right? And what role does that really play in, you know, overall growth, especially with habits? And then I know this is a layered question here, but lastly, what trends have you also seen when it comes to people's mood when trying to change a habit, right? Because I think obviously as that learning curve goes or as you, you know, start off in, in a habit or a new habit, um, obviously that mood may not be the best in the first few days, the first few weeks, right? But I think once you reach a certain plateau of, okay, this is my normal now, um, then that mood may change. And hopefully you get to a point where it's eventually even increasing, right? What trends have you maybe seen in that? Uh, and why is it so important to notice?

I think it's so important to notice getting back to this aspect that we get so accustomed to how we feel, we don't know anything different. So we want to pay attention to these things. To me, one of the most important parts is that as humans, we have so many things in our life that are out of our control that affect us. So many things that, that, you know, are going to have an impact on our functioning. And these are things over which we largely, largely do have control. So just being able to have that experience of noticing changes. And as you said, some of them take more time than others. I think that perhaps social engagement, meaningful social engagement, has a little bit more of a rapid mood bump than some of the others. But I think that, like, if you talk about sleep, well, you know, sleep is one of those things that it may take a while to get into that rhythm. The difference can be absolutely profound. But I think that it's, it's stacking these things one after the other when we start to really experience it differently. And furthermore, I think that sometimes we don't catch on when we're in deficit in these different areas. I think we're, we're missing how impactful these things are. We, like, if I'm consuming a bunch of junk food-wise, I think I can miss that, man, that was— that sure tasted good on my tongue, you know, but look at how I'm feeling now. And I think that sometimes we don't, we don't always notice or make these connections or associations and recognize these. And after all, these are things that, you know, in the group, for the great majority, that we have control over.

Yeah, I love it. I think thinking back and reflecting a little bit on how that actually made you feel afterwards is such an important part of even making that decision in the moment. You know, taking it back to maybe a bit of a shallow example from my own life. I think I obviously live with roommates, right? And I think like the go-to meal on like Friday night sometimes when there's nothing better and we just don't want to spend a lot of money is like Taco Bell, right? And that's like obviously easy, cheap, simple, obviously not good for you. And obviously does not make you feel the best afterwards. And definitely doesn't leave your bathroom the best afterwards either. And I think, you know, maybe reflecting on that, I think one of my roommates actually made a decision that like, hey, you know, I'm not gonna eat this for the rest of the semester, which is, which is pretty awesome. Mind you, I think I'm pretty sure he had it yesterday. So, you know, I won't, I won't give him too much credit there. But that being said, you know, hopefully there's some reflection going on there. There will be some growth happening. But, you know, last question here. I know we're getting to the end of our time here, but just to close out, right, I want to talk a little bit about maintaining these changes, right? Because I think obviously beginning is tough, even in the middle, getting to that place where, you know, even at least in the beginning, I feel like you have a certain learning curve that's so steep that you're almost motivated by your own momentum. But then you get to a point where you're just like, man, I'm just going about the same action every day. I know I personally felt this, especially when I started off at the gym, right? When you're like, seeing rapid growth, or you're seeing, you know, the plates go up, the numbers go up, and you're feeling all good and everything. You're meeting new people. And then obviously it gets to a point where you're just like, all right, man, like now I'm— it just feels like I'm doing the same thing until months and months and months later when maybe I move up by a little bit, right? You plateau a little bit. But just to zoom out and look at that bigger picture, right? Because the real challenge here isn't just making changes for a week. It's actually about carrying them forward and compounding them so that you can grow in other ways as well. What does maintaining these healthy changes actually look like to you in real life, right? I know this whole book has been through this framework of 5 weeks, but is that, you know, is success to you success about a certain level of perfect consistency? Is it about just working on 1 or 2 habits and getting really deep into them and perfecting that? Is it about casting a wide net and trying to improve just a little bit in a lot of different areas, you know, being well-rounded? Is it about returning to these practices and constantly be trying to work on a new habit every time? You know, what does success in maintaining healthy habits really look like to you? And what can our, you know, listeners today take away from this discussion thinking that, okay, you know, when I start this and when it gets hard, here's what I want the endpoint to look like.

So the first thing that I would say is that it can be helpful for us, and the workbook tries to do this, and holding on to these things can be helpful, but it's really trying to remember where we started from. And it goes back to what led us to want to change any one or all of these 5 areas. You know, what was happening? So we have a recall, because sometimes what can happen when we hit, as you described, the plateau, one of the things that can happen is our memory oftentimes is not crystal clear. And so we can think back to some of those things that we enjoyed with how we were doing it previously, and our memory is not going to be really sharp with, you know, why did I want to change this in the first place? There was a reason. And so I think that that can be very helpful. But in terms of an overarching idea behind this, What I have found is that when people recognize that being a human and living is constant movement, it's— we never get there, essentially, is, is the thing. No, we're not made to. So, for example, I've worked with a number of people who have had some really amazing achievements in their life, have have done some things that are pretty amazing, pretty awesome. And there was this idea that once I achieve this goal, you know, it's almost like a romantic comedy. You know, they cut it off right there at the happy point. They don't talk about the rest of it. But it's this idea that we're going to hit this mountaintop and then that's it. I don't know what we think of after that, but that's not life. We're always moving. There's always going to be energy and we can't stay still. In our lives in general. And so I think that one of the things I've seen very helpful to people is once they start improving in these areas, if they set, okay, now what's a goal for myself? You know, what else can I do? So I'm, you know, let's say I'm, I'm getting up every morning and I'm walking, you know, and I'm, and I'm trying to increase my percentage of clean meals throughout the day. Okay, these things are great. Well, what about I'm going to walk a 5K? I'm going to run or jog a 5K. I'm going to do something else that can help me because it's this other goal. But it's going to be really important to keep these habits that I've started to develop. And so it's trying to recognize we need movement. We're made to move. We're made to be active. We're not going to reach a point at which, okay, you know, it's all done. I just do this and everything's fine.

Yeah, yeah. Dr. Campbell, thank you so much. This was, this was incredible. I feel like one of the things that makes this series so powerful is just the fact that it brings something, you know, brings our listeners, brings people back to something that's honestly so simple but really easy to forget, right? I mean, a lot of the time feeling better doesn't actually just begin with some crazy or huge life overhaul. It just begins with getting back in rhythm with the way we're actually meant to live, whether that's more sunlight, better sleep, more movement, more connection, right? And at the end here, cleaner consumption. These things sound really basic. I don't think anyone would argue that any of them are bad for you, but they're powerful and they're very, very forgotten. And I think the most important part of it is doing each of these very intentionally, right? I think there's a lot of facets to a lot of our lives. There's a lot of things we all find important here, but I think the real takeaway from this conversation and the past two that we've had is that there's no need to go and revamp or fix your whole life tonight, right? You don't need the perfect routine, the perfect mindset, the perfect week. You just need one small change that you can go deep with, that you can actually carry into your real life. So, you know, to everyone listening, let this be your challenge. Pick one thing from this series and start today, right? Maybe that's, stepping outside for a 10-minute walk tomorrow morning, right? Maybe it's putting your phone away a little bit earlier tonight. Maybe it's going on a walk, texting a friend you haven't talked to in a really long time, or replacing one unhealthy input with a bit of a better one, right? Keep it simple, keep it realistic, and hopefully let that one change become proof that you can build momentum, even if that's starting in, you know, your college apartment, right? So, and Dr. Campbell, Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us for these episodes. It's been an absolute blast. And before we wrap up here, I'd love for you to share where people can find you, where they can get the book, and anything else that you just want the listeners to, to check out.

Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. And, you know, the overall message, as you said, is we need to live in a way as close as possible to the way our bodies were made. And when we don't do that, we tend to become depleted. And whatever we have a predisposition to, whatever things that we're more likely to struggle with, are much more likely to come about and affect us. As far as the workbook, it is available on Amazon. And so that is available, our Primal 5. And we're in the, in the final stages of developing an app. And so the app will be something that people can use to record, uh, their— these different areas, these different behaviors, um, you know, throwing in some features that are going to help with what you were saying in terms of finding associations between our mood and our tendencies and what they make these things more helpful. So that'll be out soon, so hopefully you can check that out. And, uh, but yeah, definitely pick up a copy of the workbook.

Absolutely. To everyone listening, you know, if this series helped you, if it just grounded you a little bit, made you remember something, send it to someone in your life who might need it too, right?

Something—

sometimes the best thing you can do is to share it with someone, you know, and, and not just share noise, but hopefully something that, you know, makes them feel a little bit more grounded and brings them back to the basics. Thank you all so much for listening to Readers, and until next time, keep on learning, keep on changing, and keep on growing. We'll see you next time.