Ramit Sethi and Pamela Slim discuss why people, especially women, undercharge for their work. Slim tested raising prices and giving away low-value items free while charging premium rates for core offerings, and saw improved results. They sort through feedback to separate vindictive criticism from useful input.
I'm Pamela Slim, author of Escape from Cubicle Nation and the upcoming Body of Work. I am a business coach and a writer and a speaker, and you can find me at escapefromcubiclenation.com welcome, Pam. Thanks for having me. Perfect.
So we talked about getting better at your craft. Anything else to become a truly standout performer at your corporate job?
Yes. Get used to getting feedback and feedback from people. Sometimes that will tell you that you really suck at what you do. This has been a learning curve for me that's taken a long time. I used to hate it. I was in the field of training and development, where everything I did always had an evaluation attached to it. Right. And being kind of a perfectionist, I'd get all like five out of fives for 40 people, and then two people would give me a three and I would feel all crushed and devastated. So it's really, really, really important to learn how to take feedback from and to sort through people who are just kind of being, like, vindictive and who like to just make people squirm versus people who actually see the potential in who you are and are willing to give you really tough feedback.
Okay, can we just put a real world example on this? Because I think that you talk the talk, but I also think you walk the walk. And I want to share an example, if it's okay.
Yes. You.
You called me. I don't know when it was, let's say, a couple years ago.
Yeah. November 2011.
There we go. Okay. And you said, ramit, I wanna have a call with you. I want specific feedback on these areas of my business. And I mean, it was. You really detailed it out. And so we got on the phone and of course I'm more than happy to help because not only do I know you, but someone who comes that prepared and is that open, anyone wants to help them. So I talked to you and I gave you some feedback. I told you that your prices were too low.
Yes.
That you were way too valuable for what you were charging. And as a result, it was marring your brand.
Yes.
And I remember a phrase I told you, which was, you should lead the market, not respond to it. Cause let's face it, you're not just some beginner level coach. You have amazing results. Your book is outstanding. I mean, I've brought you to I will teach stuff, which I usually don't bring anyone because I'm like, nobody's good, but you're outstanding. Okay. So do you recall how you took the feedback?
I do recall. I loved it and a big part is because I trusted you and that's why I came specifically to you. I had hoped, which I got from you, to get very specific, clear feedback. The other thing which you told me, which I never forgot, was there are certain things you can have that are products that are priced so low. If you want to make it accessible to the market, make it free. I thought that was great advice. So just make it free. Give away great stuff for free, but then what you charge, charge a premium. So it was extremely, extremely useful. I wanted the advice. I took it totally seriously and I made specific shifts in how it is that I did programming. The way I am and the way I know myself is I get advice. I like to test it in small bits. I like to raise my prices kind of in a couple iterations in order to really test it with my market and make sure that it makes sense. That's just who I am. And I kind of know that. But I did. I consolidated a lot of programs and I also followed up with you with an email where I gave you very specific feedback about the results because I wanted you to know that it made a difference. I was like $12,272 off my target, but I didn't whine about it. I mean, there were a couple things that happened that didn't quite meet expectations, but in general, I was really pretty on target.
This was one of the favorite emails I've ever gotten. Okay, appreciate that. Let's now talk about undervaluing ourself. This is something that it's chronic among creatives. I believe it's chronic among coaches in particular. I mean, I undervalued myself with my $4.95 E book.
I remember that you were sweating bullets.
Oh, I was so scared. You know, the sales copy is still online. It's horrible. It's like, hey guys, I know you could probably get this for free, but. And I'm like, I look at it and I want to vomit. I can't. I wrote that. So let's talk about undervaluing ourselves. I want to talk about undervaluing ourself as an employee and then as a self employed person. And I'm curious if you can share any personal insights and also any insights you've got from coaching people as well.
Yeah, a couple. That has been one of my things for sure. So when I was making a career transition earlier in my 20s when I was working for companies, I remember, I never forget this advice that I got from somebody that really helped me to think differently about Undervaluing myself. I had been asking, was interviewing at different places, and it was a woman who had been on her own for a really long time. And she said, well, what salary are you asking for? And I said, well, I probably need something like $50,000. That's probably pretty good at that time. That's more than enough. I don't need any more than that. Right. And so she told me, she said, when it comes to compensation, especially if you're a female, so this may resonate more for females rather than males, but I think also males can have this. You must charge what the market will bear, especially in relation to your male peers. And the key is, though, is then if you choose, you can give it all away.
Oh, how interesting.
And this was. It was very interesting for me because, you know, and she wasn't saying it in that you don't deserve to have a good life. You know, that. What I was saying is, you know, I'm not, like a fancy person. I don't need stuff. Yeah. I mean, like, you know, like, it's nice to stay at a nice place to go on a nice, you know, vacation. Right. But, like, I'm a woman of the people. Like, I don't like to be. It would be a nightmare for me to only be, like, rubbing elbows with, like, fancy rich people.
This is so interesting, right? This is a total invisible script, which is to say, if I get paid, let's just make up a number here, 70,000, which is a lot of money, then I'm going to have to buy a Mercedes and I'm going to have to give up all my poor friends and I can only go and eat, like, with a white napkin. It's ridiculous.
It's totally ridiculous.
But it's one invisible script that we use so that we don't have to step up to the plate and ask for what we truly deserve.
Exactly.
