“Before kids, I made $20k/month. Now he wants me to be a housewife”

My dear wife doesn't understand what it's like to be a man and have the very specific drive that not all men, but most men have. Instead, it's looked at as an excuse and bull. Last month I made more money than I've ever made in my life. I brought home 17,000 dol. And the way it was received wasn't the way that I would have liked it to have been received.

I wasn't prepared for how much this unconscious idea of the role I should play as a woman and the role he should play as a man would affect our relationship. I was not prepared for that.

Ramit, let me say something to you. There's some fear. There's some fear with being direct with my wife. I want to be heard. I want to be heard. I want to say this one thing that I've been trying to say and have her hear me.

Well, we've been here for almost three hours. When are you going to say you guys have been together for 13 years?

I'll say it right now. I'll say it right now. I'll make it very plain. I need love from you. Respect. I need food, and I just need clean clothes. That's it.

You need me to be a housewife for the next three months.

Last year I was at an event for entrepreneurs, and when you're going around introducing yourself to people, I noticed that a lot of people, a lot, said, yeah, I moved here because save on taxes. And then they kind of waited as if I was going to applaud them. Oh, so cool. Tax minimization. So awesome. In my head I was like, get a life if you are an entrepreneur. And in the first 45 seconds of introducing yourself, you talk about how little you pay in taxes. I have a feeling you might actually not be that good of an entrepreneur. Imagine making a ton of money and out of all your options in life, the beautiful cars, the most amazing food, the finest sweaters you could buy, giving away to charity and tipping, you decide to use taxes as the overriding goal for how you're going to make your major life decisions. No, thank you. This Saturday, I'm going to break down two types of people who prioritize taxes when deciding where to live and why. I think this is really, really dumb. All right. By the way, when I post this, people get extremely mad, which is also hilarious to me because I'm going to respond to those comments. This is coming out this Saturday on my podcast newsletter. And it's Saturday 8 26. You can only get it@iwt.com podcast newsletter again, if you want to learn why I have no patience for people whose first priority is paying less in taxes, get on the podcast newsletter@iwt.com podcast newsletter now let's get to the episode. Welcome to part two of my conversation with Kara and Drake. They are 38 and 37 years old with two infant children and. And a very complex story. Please go back and listen to last week's episode number 117 to catch up with this couple. You will recall that they initially came to me because they've been arguing about money and it really took place at a grocery store. As I started to ask them more and more questions, well, we started to grapple with Kara's realization that her identity is changing as a wife, as a mother, as an entrepreneur, and some of Drake's very surprising reactions. Let's continue this conversation.

I'm going to be really very, very scarily honest on this very public platform. I think I'm afraid of what it means to a certain degree if I'm not doing all those things, if I am not all of those things. And by giving him this one, kissing him on the neck metaphorically, somehow represents a loss to me, a loss of control, a loss of identity. And I black out in the sense of, what, what now? How, how, how should I behave now? Who am I?

Because all the time you've been together, who would you say has been the leader in the relationship?

Five out of seven categories, I think it's been me.

Yeah, how about the money category?

It's been me.

What's going through your head? Say it out loud for me.

I'm trying not to cry. There's been so much loss of identity since we left la. I'm also an. An actor and I previously had an acting career and that was a huge part of my identity. I give the odd example to say, like, there's so many things that have died in my life and I never regained that control, I never regained that identity and any of those things that I previously was. And here I am, a wife and now a mother of two and still an entrepreneur and a leader with people that I love and I care for and they do well. Like, I'm. There's so many good things is what I'm trying to say. There's so many good things that have manifested in these last two years. I, like, I don't, I don't, like, I don't know how to fit into it. Like, I don't feel like I did before, where I felt confident. I Was on beat and like, I knew what to do and I knew where to go and how to be. And now it's just like I'm kind of doing a mediocre job at everything. So maybe I'm fighting to regain some kind of control or some sort of my old identity. And it end. And then we're here.

How old is your youngest?

Four weeks in a day.

I'm not surprised. It's difficult. I don't think anybody would expect it to be easy. You have two very young children. That alone incredibly difficult. You have partner with whom you have not been able to create a healthy dynamic about money. And Suddenly he's earning 17k in a month. And then your business, you know, there's all these different things. All that. To me, it's no surprise that you feel out of sorts, A little mediocre at certain things. Especially difficult when you used to be good at everything. Did you know that she felt this way?

I've been wanting to say that for the longest and didn't want to upset her, so I kept my mouth closed.

Tell her now. Now that the seal has been broken, she's brought it up herself. Go ahead, tell her whatever you want to tell her.

Okay. It's extremely hard to feel appreciated when I'm not being appreciated. And when I came into this relationship, you were making a lot of money and I wasn't. I mean, relatively. Relatively, I wasn't. And I knew that I had my work cut out for me. I knew that.

Can I pause? Right.

Yes. Yes.

I. I sense you gearing up for a long statement, but I want to make sure you're reacting to what she just said. It was extremely interesting and profound. Are we on the same page?

Yes.

Okay, go ahead.

Yeah, we are.

Okay.

It's very emasculating when you.

Wait, wait, wait. Where's this coming from? Hold on. What did you hear her say just now?

I heard her say that she has a loss of identity and it's very hard to come to grips with it. And she feels like she's lost control over everything.

Okay, okay. I agree. She said all those things. Totally agree.

Yeah.

Okay. So you heard her correctly. Okay, please carry on.

I did. Where this is coming from is feeling like I was being controlled and feeling like in the midst of you holding on to whatever you can control, I'm the closest thing that you can grab. And I tell you, what's that face for me?

I don't know. Is this just like one grievance session after another? I'm so confused. I'M so confused. She just opened up in a really deep way, and you're talking about being emasculated. Like, this seems absolutely crazy to me. Really? Yes. Like, God, I can't even believe what I'm hearing. If anything, what I would expect is a partner to say thank you for being so honest. I didn't realize how difficult it is. Gosh, you've taken on so much and to have your identity, which used to be A plus and everything, feel like you're doing a C minus. God, that must be so difficult. I love you. I'd love to support you. How are you guys going to communicate about money if you can't even talk about, like, really deep stuff like this, like, feeling a loss of identity?

Well, I. I guess this is the first time that I've felt seen in a while and understood in a while, and I wanted to give some perspective from my point of view on what she said. My apologies.

No, you don't have to apologize to me.

No, I'm apologizing to her for coming at that angle and not acknowledging the bravery that you showed by opening up. Because I truly do appreciate you. I appreciate everything about you. I appreciate the fact that you are a bad in your job. I appreciate the fact that you are an amazing mother. I am blessed that you are their mother, and I'm blessed that you're my wife. And I love that you support me, and I love that you put up your money to invest in me because you saw something in me. I love that. I love it. And I'm here. I'm showing up. I'm doing exactly what you thought I was going to do. I'm doing it. And all I'm saying is let me do it. Let me do it.

I appreciate that. That was, like, a tense moment for me, but thank you. Because you're right, Ramit. I just needed a little bit of softness and some validation in that. And I know that you feel those things straight. Like, literally could feel the muscles in my back relax as you're saying these things. And I'm like, oh, yes, that is true. He does feel that. I know he believes that. Like, it felt like breath. So thank you for saying that.

You're welcome, darling.

I love seeing that. I loved it. Drake, I know what you said was heartfelt. I could feel that. I'd love for you to be able to feel that more often. What do you think?

100%. I agree. I would.

Yeah.

Seal that moment up that we just had for a second and remember, that is transferable. That's transferable to your kids in terms of raising them. It's transferable to talking about family. It's transferable to money. It's a skill. You sealed it up in a fist, now you deploy it wherever you want.

Okay.

Kara, how'd you grow up with money? What do you remember about money when you were a kid?

Like, work hard, don't ask nobody for nothing, never accept a handout. Rich people are greedy.

Oh, are they greedy?

No, I don't think that's the case at all.

Okay, how did you come to that now, as an adult, even though you were raised as a kid, to believe that they're greedy?

I think I came to it because I saw the life that I, that my mom and my dad, but mostly my mom was living and say, oh, hell no. Like, I'm not gonna live like that.

What was it like?

Just like always working, working, working. And you gotta. My mom would wake up as long as I can remember it. I think she still does this. She'd wake up at like 4:30 in the morning, drive an hour to her job, work a full job, come home an hour, cook dinner for us and be pissed.

Just a couple questions, Kara. How many times you wake up in the middle of the night?

Oh my God. Every two hours. Every two hours.

Thank you. And then did you cook some food for the family?

I did, I did. I reheated the food that my mom made and put in the freezer.

Okay, and now that your mom's gone, who's going to make food over the next week or two?

I'll be reheating the food that she left for us.

And when that's done, then it'll be.

On me to figure out food.

Got it. And then you work in your business still.

Yes.

And then at the end of the day when it comes to money, how do you feel about money right now?

I feel not. I feel like I don't have enough money right now.

Huh. Are there any similarities? Am I the only one in this room seeing it?

No. Can I, can I speak on this, please? Really interesting, because go back two years ago. Pre. Pre marriage. Pre. Pre babies. I was. Had really shifted my identity around money from that specifically. Right, right. And I had created something that my mom just, she just couldn't believe it. She couldn't believe that I was earning six figures from something I had created. And I had left a job that was very much me living my mom's ideas.

Got it.

And so it was a profound shift. And then something, something so primal, like having children Happens to you, and all of a sudden, poof, I'm my mom again.

Yeah. And how does that make you feel?

I feel very disappointed with myself.

Poof.

I'm my mom again. How many young parents do you think suddenly blink their eyes and realize they are now emulating their parents? I wonder how many of us look around and realize we're rehashing our family relationship dynamics. And I wonder how many of us realize that we're recreating the way our family handled money. You know, when I speak to couples on this podcast, it's often strikingly obvious to me and to you how similar the patterns are. But it's almost never obvious to the person I'm talking to. Have you noticed that? It's the same reason you can have a friend asking for relationship advice and it's blatantly obvious to you what they should do. But when it's our relationship and our situation, well, suddenly it's infinitely more complex. This is why we all need a little help. Sometimes it can be with money or fitness or our relationship. And that help can come in the form of a book, a podcast, a trainer, a coach, a therapist. But the things that are totally obvious to someone else, they're literally right in front of our faces, are the same things we are blind to when it's our own situation. Kara, who admits she gets lost in the details, is now realizing that she's recreated the same dynamics that her mom did. Drake describes himself as thinking big picture and he's oblivious to these details. And this dynamics is part of the reason why Cara was crying at the grocery store over Drake using a different credit card. In her mind, she's trying to keep it all together. In his mind, who cares? I made $17,000 last month. Listen closely for this dynamic as we go on. What would it look like if you too were an effective team with money?

Well, the first thing that I would do is tackle the debt, get that completely out, get our credit scores back to where they were and buy assets and leverage debt honestly and spend money off of what the assets are bringing in and just keep making strategic investments, set us up for the future, for things that are literally making us money without having to wake up at 4:30 in the morning and work all day just to make a living.

I like your vision. It's a powerful tenure, 20 year vision. I love it. I actually think you could get there if you wanted to. But why don't we narrow the scope a little bit and think about the next six months? Because I think that makes it A little bit more real.

I would like to have a monthly meeting on. This is what we're going to do, and this is the goal. This is what we're going to tackle. We would quantify it. We would have goals, milestones set in place just to make sure that we are on the right trajectory. Pan down the credit cards. That would be really good. Like a percentage, I guess, of the.

Credit cards, what else?

From the milestones. We would celebrate our wins and we would not trip over me wanting to buy some Jenny's ice cream. It's expensive, but I. I love it.

I have a question, though. I. I like. Yeah, I don't mind if you want to buy some ice cream. Get some ice cream. Yeah. What credit card would you be using for that? Jenny's ice cream for the two of you?

Oh, man, I wouldn't use a credit card to buy that.

Okay?

I've been not spending on the credit card and paying it down. Oh, man, you're not going to like this. I spend with Wells Fargo. That's my bank.

Listen, Wells Fargo is a bag bank, okay? And if you want to do your business there, great. You know they prey on minorities, right? It's three minorities in this call right now. They're coming for us. All right?

Anyway, I listen to your bug.

All right?

Thank God.

Mother. Wells Fargo. Anyway, I agree. Everyone comes on this show like, ooh, can I say bad words? Can I name names? I'm like, mother. Wells Fargo.

Yes.

Let me take a second to make sure the millions of people listening to this understand how bad Wells Fargo really is. You know, I started this entire business because it's just a little too confusing how to manage money. And a lot of us don't know what we're doing, but we know we're doing something wrong. And the minute we try to learn there's some company out there trying to get us, and that drives me nuts. I don't think you should have to be a financial expert to make the right decisions in life. So when I hear a company like Wells Fargo coming after everyday people, it drives me insane. Let me read from some Wikipedia history so you can actually know what kind of company Wells Fargo is. The Illinois Attorney General filed suit against Wells Fargo for steering black and Hispanic customers into high cost subprime loans. Loan officers referred to black mortgage seekers as, quote, mud people, and their subprime loans as, quote, ghetto loans. What? Wells Fargo agreed to pay $175 million in fines. Years later, they discriminated against nearly 35,000 black job applicants. They paid $7.8 million in back wages. Wells Fargo has been fined billions of dollars for opening up fake accounts for customers, including illegally repossessing vehicles. Can you imagine if you make a low income and your awful bank, Wells Fargo illegally repossesses your only way of getting to work. Do you see how that single action could affect your entire family, in some cases for a generation? Wells Fargo. And if you use them. Switch now. Be sure to mention my name when they ask why you're closing your account. I want them to know it's me anyway. All right, so forget the credit card. Here's my question.

Yes.

How are you paying for this? Jenny's ice cream for the two of.

You from our fun find.

Okay. Your joint account where you have planned for ice cream and dinners out and things like that. Okay. I want to make that point because an effective team. You heard one thing that really irritates your partner? That grocery store exam.

Yep.

It's like, that's easy, because if something. If that. Something that simple, you can just fix. Fix it. Find a way. We can come up with strategies if you want some help. But, like, we can't be stuck talking about what credit card are we using? When you. When you're talking about building assets and leveraging, like, 14 bucks, I'm not going to let that get in the way of leveraging assets. All right, all right, fine. That's like a pretty powerful vision. I actually love what you said six months from now. You think you could be doing that?

In some respects, yes.

What? Okay, I like that. In what ways could you not?

If we fumble the bag, if we just get frivolous with our spending in.

The worst way, you're gonna mess up. That's.

Okay.

Like, if I. If I try to write a song today, is it gonna be perfect? No, it's gonna suck. It's gonna be all messed up. So what? I get better and, you know, we build it. Nothing catastrophic is gonna happen if you overspend by five bucks.

Yeah.

Isn't that actually quite telling? It's like, an effective team doesn't always win in a perfect game. They mess up, somebody trips. Mistakes happen. And what does an effective team do?

They learn from the mistakes. They watch the game tape and they get in a huddle and big each other up.

Bingo.

All right, I want to ask the same question over here, Kara.

What would it look like if we were effective as a team with money? It would look like having conversations about the finances with excitement, curiosity, even. To be effective. It would be. I hear loud and clear. Lots of celebration over all the wins. His wins, my wins, our wins. And I think having a budget or a way to track money that we both, like, feel good about.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, right now, neither of you feel good about it. You realize that. All right, so first off, who filled out this conscious spending plan?

We both did.

Oh, what was that like?

It was terrible. We got into a huge argument.

Huh. Why? How could you argue over a beautiful thing like this?

I was trying to give a more accurate depiction because I actually want. I not want. I need your help and your guidance, and I wanted to put something real in with the subscriptions, and I pulled out my phone to look at what the subscriptions were, and that caused. It caused an argument.

Carol, what was your perspective on that fight?

I was frustrated at the moment that we were filling it out together. As I'm reading them, I'm learning. Oh, it's the back of the napkin. I'm learning your details on how to fill it out. And I learned that he wasn't reading the instructions because he was trying to accurately calculate very specific numbers. And I was frustrated, Ramit, because I had the specific numbers, because I've been a budgeting warrior for the last three months, so I easily had already punched those current spending numbers in. I'd already done that because I had it because I'm the one who budgets. I was trying to, like, facilitate a conversation so that it wasn't just me filling out the whole thing by myself. And he was still back on a different part. And so I was extremely frustrated that we weren't on the same page, literally reading it.

Now that you've said that out loud, what. What do you notice?

It's a lot of me trying to, like, drive and, like, do things a certain way that ends up creating friction.

Keep going.

Do I have to? I'm anxious to get to the result. And I get very impatient with. I'll just say I get very impatient.

And what are the consequences of that?

I fight.

Yeah. In fact, I would go as far as to say sometimes the magic is in the process itself.

Yeah.

What's going through your mind right now?

I don't like to get things wrong. I don't. I don't like to get things wrong, and I don't like to. I want to get things right. I'm always trying to get it right. And I didn't get this right. And I understand. I didn't get this right because instead of being patient with what he was doing and just sitting there for however amount of time that it would have taken. I tried to get him back on track knowing that. It's not my conscious bending plan, it's not my process. It's like it's supposed to be hours, and I got it wrong, and that doesn't feel good.

And can I just say, maybe the whole principle of getting it right and wrong is not even the right principle.

Yeah.

How old's your oldest? You said about 16 months. Yes. Your daughter, when. When you go play, what is she playing with right now?

She likes to play piano and she has a little guitar.

Love that she plays piano. She have like a little. Little keyboard?

She does.

And what do you tell her when she gets it wrong?

Great job, baby. It's beautiful.

I love it. So you're saying maybe right and wrong isn't even the correct lens to view the way that she's engaging in play?

Yes.

With the CSP, whether you are $5 off or $50 off is irrelevant to me. And more important would be. Finish the sentence for me, Kara.

That we do it together.

Yeah. Yeah. And the way that the two of you play, you have some fun. You tease each other. You say you think we spent 4,000. Do you mean $4? No. You're crazy. This is driving me insane. Oh, my God. Okay, you're right. It's probably 250. Have some fun now. You laughed when I said tease each other. What do you.

I. I think I laugh because it's the total opposite of the energy that we currently have.

Correct. And that energy is terrible.

It's tennis. It's terrible. It's not fun.

It's.

It's.

That's what the energy is.

Doesn't this all sound familiar? In fact, in episode 115, I spoke to Ebony and Kevin, a couple who mirror Cara and Drake in many ways. They're just a little bit older. Ebony and Kevin have two college age kids. Ebony was the budgeting warrior, as Kara put it. Both women like to be right, hate to be wrong. Kevin was confident they'd be okay, just like Drake has said throughout this conversation. And both men shut down when it came to talking about money. Notice the cultural similarities. Notice the similarities in dynamics around money. Ebony and Kevin, who are a beautiful and loving couple, provided a crystal ball into what might happen if Kara and Drake continue their dynamic for another 25 years. This is the gift of being able to get wisdom from people who have gone through similar situations as we are in the couples on this podcast. Whether they are low earners, high earners, entrepreneurs, 9 to 5, whatever. They provide a Crystal ball where you can see where you may very likely end up if you don't make a change. And sometimes we listen and we go, wow, I love that couple. I love how they complement each other and boost each other up. Fantastic. That can be a crystal ball, or it can be, gosh, I don't want to be 50 years old and in $100,000 of debt. That can be a crystal ball. What I want to encourage you to do as you listen to episodes from this podcast, is to think, is it possible for us to end up in that situation? Is that a situation we would want to be in? What are we doing today? So we can either avoid that or make that a reality for us. Think ahead with money. That's one of the most powerful things you can do. Can you see a possible universe where the two of you could do the CSP and actually have fun doing it?

Yes.

Yeah.

What would it look like?

It has to begin with a mutual goal in mind. We are going to do this and have fun.

Okay.

Rather than we have to do this.

Did you guys do that on your first date? You sat down, you're like, we're going to have a mutual goal in mind. That doesn't sound fun.

Yeah.

Okay.

We'd be sitting on a patio somewhere drinking a cocktail and eating pancakes. I know the two don't go together, but it sounds amazing.

Who made the cocktail?

Oh, man. There's this restaurant around the corner that makes pancakes, and then we could get some to go. Cocktails.

Okay. Pancakes, cocktails, laptop, conscious spending plan. There's sunshine. So it's. It's a nice day. I have on makeup, and maybe, like, I feel good about myself. Like, I dressed. Maybe I got some heels on. I feel cute. Maybe you look cute.

Okay. I love this. All right. You're both feeling good. You got good food, good drinks. You're looking good. All right, Toss the ball.

All right, so I would go through and look at where we actually dropped the ball first and laugh about it and say, oh, I didn't realize that I spent that much on cereal or whatever and, you know, saying, okay, well, now that I see that, I know it can be corrected. So let's move forward. What did we get right now? And in on that high note?

Nice. Great already. Juices are flowing. We're talking about having some fun, making fun of ourself. I love that you did. That's a very, very powerful tool. And honestly, just calling out the elephant in the room, it's like, yeah, I kind of messed up on this one. But the fact that I'm owning it proactively, what are you gonna say about that? It's like, yeah, I messed up, and I have a plan to fix it. Oh, it's, like, the most attractive thing in the world.

So attractive. But I love it.

So that that's how a CSP process can be much healthier. Has nothing to do with right or wrong. Has no importance on if you're getting the decimal place perfectly correctly. It's really about how are the two of you gonna handle a simple task together like this? All right, let's start with Kara. Go ahead and read off assets and then the number next to it. Let's go through this net worth section.

Okay. Assets, $0. Investments, 4,500. Savings, 0. Debt, $339,000.

Okay.

Total net worth, negative $334,500.

All right. What do you think about that?

I think it's really not good.

Drake, what do you think about that?

Needs work.

Okay, what is the $339,000?