Dropout to 6 figures: How to reinvent your career

Last time you were here, you were not on video.

That's right. Hi, my name is Julie and with Ramit's help, I've actually been able to just about triple my salary into the high six figures area.

So today it's really a thrill to be able to go behind the scenes of Dream Job. From some of the origin material that this program actually came from over a decade ago, we will go through you going to law school and moving into Wall street and then tech. But your current stage, tell us what you're doing and tell us in a nutshell how your dream job now, what does it look like?

So right now I am the CEO and co founder of a company called Methodology and it is my dream job. At this moment in time, it's woven together all the things that I love most in life. It's helping people, it's food, it's giving me a flexible lifestyle on the personal side of things. And like from where I am today, I see why I had to do all the jobs and milestones that have led up to this. So I have this job now. I'm prepared for it at this stage in my life. It's not something I could have, I could not have started this company at age 27. Right. I had to go through the things that I went through and yeah, I couldn't be happier. I feel so blessed every day with the foundation that we built years ago and it's serving me now. It gives me confidence that no matter what stage of my career I'm in, like, at any given time I feel like given my current skills and given my current values in life, I can have my dream job at any given point in time.

Even though that dream might change over time.

Oh yeah, they definitely change.

Yeah. So you've gone through all of the seasons. You were very growth oriented in your 20s, willing to put in the work. As you started off in law school, pretty early on, you were unhappy. And I remember we would, what was it? Instant messenger event. And you were just telling me like, this is horrible. And I was like, how do you have so much time to instant message me when you're supposed to be in class? And I guess that's what happens when you hate your class. Yeah, so you told me.

I was like, 10 years from now, I already knew by my first year, 10 years from now, there's no way I'm going to be an attorney. I will probably, you know, practice law for long enough to pay off, you know, any debt that I have and then I definitely need to switch Right away.

So what's going through your mind when you say something like that?

How I remember how painful that was because I didn't like what I was doing. I was bad at it because of that. So you just, you feel like a failure and you end up in this negative feedback loop where you feel like a failure. But when you feel like a failure, how do you have the confidence to even make a change, to get to pull yourself out of that darkness? So it felt really hopeless at times and it was scary because a large part of my identity growing up, I was always this high achiever, student body president, Stanford. And to have to let go of my attachment to this idea that I live this successful life and everybody thinks I'm smart and to have to set that aside and be willing to drop out of something and admit that I made a really, really bad decision, that was hard. That was one of the hardest things I've ever been through in life. Even to this day, I would say that was one of the hardest years of my life and the decision making around that. And I always say, thank goodness you were around to help coach me through it. I don't know if I would have had the courage to leave when I did, or maybe I would have been one of those people who became a lawyer and then changed careers years later. Who knows when the change would have happened. I'm glad I dropped out after one year. I guess that's fast compared to a lot of lawyers who hate their jobs 10 years into their careers.

Absolutely. Like, I know from talking to you that it couldn't have come easy. I also know you had family pressures of being a successful Stanford graduate lawyer. I know that most of our friends when we graduated went on to really great things. They were either in grad school or working at Google. How do you know you weren't just hating it because you were new to it? Like, if I go try to learn a new sport, I'm not very good at it. So I just feel bad and I feel uncomfortable. And as an adult, I'm not used to feeling like that. But you really hated it enough that you actually quit. What's the difference between feeling bad just because you're new at something and feeling bad because it's not a right fit?

That is a really good question. And I think the analogy that comes to mind that I used then and that I used at other stages in my career was it wasn't just the day to day work that I didn't like. It's kind of like, you know, when I want to get in shape. I don't like the workouts. Like, that's not fun. But what I always think through is when I look at people several years ahead of me, do I want that job? So when I looked at what lawyers were doing day to day, I didn't feel like there was a light at the end of the tunnel. I looked at that job and I was like, wow, that's not going to be that different from the stuff I'm doing in law school right now. So, you know, it's not going to get better. And whereas, like, with the workouts, which I hate, I do want that physique. So, you know, like, the pain is worth it. So I just, I didn't see, you know, the vision to me, didn't resonate.

Wow. So you're looking at your future and you're saying when I win, I actually lose.

Yes.

When I graduate, when I become a lawyer, maybe even make partner, not only is that unexciting, it actually seems awful.

Exactly.

So that's when you knew.

Yes.

Okay. So you made the decision to drop out. Let's just think the first week after you're out of law school. So here you are, it's a Tuesday afternoon. You're used to being in class with all these other lawyers. And I remember you taught me all these words. There's gunners and there's this and that. And here you are sitting in your apartment. Maybe you walk outside, It's Tuesday at 3pm and walk down, get some coffee. How do you feel? At that moment?

I felt really lost. And just to set the scene, I think that at that stage, I very quickly knew I had to move home. So there was a lot of packing up my closet and moving back into my mom's house because I had no job lined up and no income. And at that point, as you may recall, I felt despondent about whether anyone would even hire me. So I didn't even want to take the bet on keeping my apartment. I was like, okay, I need to move to a lifestyle where I have no expenses or minimize expenses. As close to zero as possible, because who knows how long this job surge is going to take? Am I even employable right now? So I played it really safe, packed everything up, moved in with my mom, so she was simultaneously ecstatic and miserable because she's like, my daughter's home. But like. But also, I dropped my house.

My daughter's home.

Exactly. And so at that time, I felt, yeah, a lot of fear because there were so many unknowns. I Didn't know at that point what is the career path I'm gonna go down. And even if I knew, would anyone give me a chance after I dropped out of law school? But yeah, it was scary because in a way, I had to admit that I made a mistake. And I had to admit that to everyone I knew, all my friends and family, that going to law school was a mistake. It wasn't the right decision for me.

Looking back on that now, more than a decade later, what do you see young Julie as going through with your perspective now?

Yeah, there was an obsession back then with what do people think about me? That drove a lot of my decision making in life. And I think that's why having to let go of what people think about me or even just be willing to accept that, oh, she's, I guess she doesn't have her stuff together as much as I had thought, letting go of what people think, I was forced to learn that lesson. I had no choice because if I had continued to care at that point in my life, I, I would have been miserable. So it was so bad that I had to let go of that. And, you know, as it's turned out, looking back eight, 10 years later, that's one of the most freeing things that's ever happened to me because, like, as I've moved throughout my career now, I don't walk into a conference room today and everything, I'm going to prove myself. Everyone's going to walk out of this room and think, damn, that bitch is smart. You know, like, I don't have that attitude. I never feel like I have to prove myself anymore because I just let go. I was forced to let go very early in my life and career of, you know, do people think I'm smart?

You know, you recently said something very offhandedly that has stuck with me and it surprised me. You said, if my company fails, I hope it doesn't, but if it does, I won't take it personally. I'm not defined by my company. And I've been thinking about that since you said it, because I don't think I'm at that level where if my company failed, I wouldn't take it personally. I would. And I do think in a lot of ways it does define me. So I share that because I think you have done a lot of internal work, starting back there where you had to do it and it forced you to develop these skills of not caring. I haven't been forced into that situation and so I could do it, but I haven't. And I just have to say it's very inspiring to hear someone actually living that.

Thank you. I mean, I hope you never have to learn. I feel like that kind of lesson is only learned when you go through something, like, so dark, you know, where you. You literally have to fail pretty badly at something. You do feel like a failure at the time because you always feel that way when you say that you're going to do something and you don't see it through to the end. So in a way, I did feel like a failure that way.

Now, looking back, do you still think that now? And if you had young Julie, he here in front of you agonizing over going back to law school tomorrow because she just hated what she went through today and yesterday and for the last three months, what would you tell her?

I still do in general think that when you don't see something throw, you know, I feel like a failure. But it's more nuanced now. Right. So there are. It's all about learning when to cut your losses, frankly, because there's something better on the horizon and you, you know, knowing when there's a time where you really should see it through. I don't. I definitely don't regret dropping out of law school ever. Not for a single day of my life. But I still feel that way. I think that I'm more careful now what I commit to. I don't feel like I've had a lot of situations in my life since then where I've needed to not go through with something because I've learned to not jump into something so big without thinking it through so much more deeply now.

So you made the decision to pull the plug on law school, and then you're at home, despondent, very down. Will anyone ever hire me? Because in your mind, you represented a failure. So you came to me and I remember and we talked about it and I remember encouraging you. There are jobs like these companies don't even know about law school. You don't even have to put on your resume if you don't want. But I did say to you, I will help you if you do everything I say. You remember that?

Yeah, I remember it now.

And I said, you have to do everything I say. And you agreed. You put your trust in me, and that is the best kind of career relationship you can have if you need help. I know you put your trust in me and I try to steer you the right direction. So here you are. You dropped out of law school. You go through a lot of turmoil, internal. You do A lot of work you have to just start doing stuff, even though it doesn't feel good. And I want to fast forward through the process and you end up working at a top tier Wall street firm. So that is amazing. How did it feel walking into that lobby in downtown San Francisco the first day and you're walking into that lobby and flashing a match. How did that feel?

Oh, my God, it felt like such a relief because of all the obstacles I had to go through, mostly my own mental blocks. Like I never even thought it would be possible, that what was real was even within the realm of possibility in my mind. It was very surreal. And I probably had that surreal feeling almost the whole time I was there. And I had a level of gratitude probably that others in my analyst class didn't have, because I felt like something like that shouldn't have happened to someone like me.

Yeah, but you did do the work to get in there. It did not just fall down from the sky. You had to apply, you had to go through a lot. Interview very well. Yeah. And your competition was fierce. Yes. So you earned your role there. If I'm the hiring manager at this Wall street firm and I said, why'd you drop out of law school? Your failure story would be, well, I don't know, I couldn't cut it. I wasn't good. I just don't know what I want in my life. But instead, what story did you tell that hiring manager in that interview?

Yeah, I remember telling them. I looked at what lawyers were doing every day. I talked to lawyers and realized that I would not enjoy my day to day work. I would probably end up wanting to switch careers. So why would I finish law school, spend all the time trying to become a good attorney, only to change careers later? If I can just do that now, life is short. And my interviewers, they had so much respect for that because they were obviously older than I was and had friends who were lawyers. So the story was reasonable. Like I said, they're like, of course that makes a lot of sense.

You took ownership of that decision. It didn't just happen to you. You owned it. And you flip that story into something positive. And I think that's very inspirational. That's the reason that you got that job and you earned it. So here's something interesting. You told me by the second year you felt you weren't learning anymore. And you even said about that role, you said, six months where I'm not learning isn't worth the money. Now you were being paid very well. So tell me about that now?

Yes. Let's see. At that time, I was around. Yeah. Two years in. In my mid-20s. And my mind was still sharp and.

Like you're some geriatric. My mind was still sharp, my joints still worked. What are you talking about?

No, but it felt so. I was just so hungry then to learn. Not that I am not now, but I just remember picking things up so easily. And so, yeah, I felt bored very quickly and I had the rest of my life to make money. Yeah, right. I knew I wanted to front end load my learning for, you know, during as much youth, during the youthful phases of my life.

Yeah.

So that's why. Yeah, I did feel like six months, like, wow, I could be somewhere else learning from a bunch of genius, smart people. And that's worth more to me than the money.

Yeah. You know, I think the way you're talking is really interesting. Most people don't talk like that. It almost seems morbid where, you know, I was sharp then and there's a limit to your malleability of your mind. But I think there's something to be said for that. I think the same about money. You know, my uncle taught me something very interesting. He said the prime years to spend your money are between 40 and 60. Of course, after, you'll still spend it, but maybe you have health issues, maybe somebody in a partnership passes away, but you have that time now. You don't want to run out of money, but you really want to be intentional about how you spend your money. And I think what you're saying is you also want to be intentional about how you spend your time because you have this prime period where you can absorb things, where you're humble enough, where an extra $3,000, it's just going in the bank, or it's just going to be spent going out with friends. You're not supporting a family. So you made the decision after going through reinvention season, where you went from law school to a Wall street firm. You're in your growth season. You're like, I want more. I want to just soak up everything there is. And you decided to interview and switch to a tech firm. Okay, so now you've gone law school, Wall street, tech firm. You told me, I knew I wanted to work somewhere small where I would be rewarded for. For being hungry. Classic growth season. What did you mean by that? And how did you know that this company was the right one for that?

I developed that point of view because at the Wall street job, I wanted more responsibility. And they said, no, this is A structure. You have three years in the analyst program. You have to finish those three years before you can get promoted to become an associate, at which point you can do these additional responsibilities. I thought that was crazy because I was so skilled. I was like, I'm already better than these associates. I want more responsibility. They wouldn't do it in tech. When I interviewed for the company I ended up joining, one of the reasons why I picked that company over others was the manager that I would be reporting to, who's still my mentor today and was the first investor in my current company, was the smartest person I'd ever met in my life. And learning was the most important thing to me. So even though I had a job offer on the table from Facebook at the time, which was worth a lot of money, I would have been reporting to a mid level manager who was smart, of course. But I didn't think that I was going to learn as much from that guy as I would from the person I antically picked. So I actually picked my job based on my manager and who I would learn from more than any other aspect of the job, actually.

Amazing. And you did tell me, you said I focused on learning first, knowing money would come later. You still believe that?

Definitely. I still believe that to this day because I, I made that. I made a joke about how I used to make more on Wall street than I do now. And it's because even now at age 38, I'm still not optimizing my life for my salary because I still feel like I'm in learning and growth phase, largely.

Yeah. And as someone who's spent so much time in the growth phase, I think you probably know that if you wanted to make a lot of money, it actually wouldn't be that hard. You have five companies you could probably send an email to and have an offer within five days and you'd be raking it in with a very good lifestyle. But that's not what you've prioritized right now. So everything you said was just classic growth season at this point. What made you realize that a dream job could change over time? That what you were looking for now was different than when you started your career?

Yeah, I think every year as I get older, I get to know myself better. I become more in tune with things that I really value in life and want to get out of life. And so what my dream job is becomes more nuanced and evolves along with that. So at the time I was in tech, it felt like the dream job at the Time I was there for six and a half years. Loved it, learned a ton, but developed while I was there, a really strong passion for nutrition because I had had to master nutrition to solve my own health problems. And so my dream job evolved because I felt like I wanted to take all the skills that I had built on Wall street and in tech and do something interesting in the nutrition space. It was something I cared so deeply about. So, yeah, my dream job evolved because for the first time, I wanted to weave in a passion of mine which that had never been included in previous dream jobs. It wasn't. I don't know, it wasn't on. There wasn't on the radar. It wasn't important enough at the time.

Yeah, that's. That's a classic move. I think we probably both see it with a lot of friends. They start off, they sort of take the job that a lot of others do, then they start making money or taking on responsibility, and then one day they wake up and they're like, okay, I've won. I won the game, I made the money or got the title, but I'm not fulfilled. And there's something that I actually love doing. Can I weave that in to my job? Taking the Dream Job program with you along the way, almost like you put it in a tote bag and just carried it with you throughout your career. What has that been like for you?

It's been so helpful because I've gone from working from someone else to building my own company. And so Dream Job has evolved to become a framework not for. Just for what I want to do day to day and what my job is. Does to empower me in other areas of my life. It's also. It's more like dream company, dream business, dream product. So it's trained. It's trained me on this idea of having a clear vision of what I want and working backwards to get there. And then, you know, on top of that, I feel like I try to coach people on my team, my managers, to use all the same. All the same tools that I've used. Like, I want them all to have their dream jobs, whether it's at methodology or at another company. I just think everyone in life deserves to feel that way about their job. Whenever people tell me they're feeling confused about their careers at methodology, you know, we have them go through the course.

Amazing. I love what you said. Everyone should feel this good. And I agree. Everyone should. You had a quote that I will never forget. This is a decade ago. And you said, get impatient with yourself. You get impatient with your friends, you're impatient with your family. Why don't you get impatient with yourself? Tell us about that. And looking back, what would you say to that young Julie? How has that changed over time?

I definitely still feel that way. I'm so glad that she was fired up and impatient and didn't just wait for things to get better. And also, you know, it's this idea that I talk about all the time. Yeah. We're so obsessed with other people's business. We don't focus enough on our own business and our own issues. So yeah, I'm glad that I did that then. And that kind of discipline about career progress serves us well in any area of our lives.

Yeah. The amount of impatience you displayed back then 10 years ago and those hard conversations and interviews and wondering, am I doing the right thing? That was critical and that was important. But now, a decade later, it is truly incredible what you've achieved. And so here, hearing your story, I hope everyone wants to put in that amount of work and get impatient with themselves because the rewards when you do it right are so enormous you almost can't imagine. What I take away from your story is you set these goals, but you did the hard work of achieving them and then you realized what's next. Like today I said I was going to climb that mountain. I did. What else is there? And that's a hard journey as well.

Yeah.

I want to hear what you would tell someone who's not even sure what their dream job is. They're watching this, they're thinking about joining Dream Job. Maybe they've followed me on some social media or email and they're thinking about joining Dream Job. What would you tell that person?

There's almost nothing more important you can do in life than get clarity on what your dreams are and learn how to make them come to life. And especially with career, it's where we spend most of our time and it completely affects not just our happiness, but our well being and quality of life. What your life is like. If you have a job you don't like and you're making 45k versus a job you love and you're making 200k, that's. I mean, just think about the difference between those two things. And you don't have to be a genius because I'm not one to have your dream job. You just have to be willing to put in the work. I know tons of people who have their dream jobs. They're not genius smart, they just, you know, they're focused on it. And they put in the work.

Well, Julie, thank you so much for being here. Seeing Your career progression 10 years later is absolutely amazing, and it's a real gift that you're giving us to be able to come back and reflect on what you told us last time. So thank you so much.

Thank you for having me. Thank you for helping me get to this point in my career. Your advice, My friend asked me, when you went back and heard your old interview, were you, like, cringing? And I said, you know what? Ramit's advice, like, still rings true today. I did not listen to it and think, oh, that only made sense at that age. Like, honestly, all of it still applies, is just as applicable today. So. So thank you for that. It's truly timeless advice.

I appreciate it.