“He used to help me with debt…Now he’s making it worse”

I got to tell you something I'm really proud of with this show. In the last few months, we've gone in studio, we've gone around the country and done live shows, we've added more and more diverse couples and we're doing longer and longer follow ups. This gets me pumped because we are making the show better every single week. If you like what we are doing, do me a favor and leave an Apple review. I read every single one of them and it helps our podcast grow. You can leave the review at Apple Co Ramit. It's going to help us get better guests, it helps us recruit better team members, and it helps us make this show better every single week. So go to Apple Co Ramit and leave that review. If you and your partner want my help with your finances, please listen up. I'm especially looking for couples who have been affected by identity theft or they have been a victim of a scam. And if that has affected your finances, your money psychology, your relationship, I want to help. If this is you, Please apply@iwt.com apply if I think I can help. My team will reach out for an interview with you and your partner and if it's a good fit, I'll invite you to join me on the podcast. I'm only looking for couples who are serious and ready to do the work. So if that's you and you've been affected by identity theft or some kind of scam, Please apply@iwt.com apply on today's episode.

Our mentality is always like, it's just me and him and if we just put enough stuff around us, then we'll be all right. We'll be able to function. And it's not true.

Meet Frank and Jill.

Groceries have quadrupled since the start of our debt.

Frank is 29.

Jill is 33.

They're married with two young children, and they are stuck in a vicious cycle of overspending and credit card debt.

I'm angry at the cycle, I'm angry at myself. I'm angry that we can't be aligned. I'm frustrated.

Frank and Jill both struggle with the money messages they grew up with.

I was taught by my mother that the credit cards are the devil and if you get them, they are going to ruin your life.

We'd ask like, oh, can we have this cereal? And she'd be like, no, we don't have a coupon for that. And so it was just constantly like, no.

They tell themselves stories that prevent them from taking responsibility for their poor spending habits.

My rich Life is not driving a Ferrari. I want to be able to just relax and go places and go hang out with the kids and not fear poverty.

And their inability to talk about money has driven a massive wedge in their relationship.

I felt like he's checked out. Like, even when I asked, hey, can you figure out what your retirement is? It was like, I don't care. And to me I'm like, don't you understand? Like, that's what we're working towards.

If things don't change soon, they might face some major consequences.

The biggest fear is we're going to be bankrupt. And all of the fears that we have been fueling are going to be reality.

Can they ditch their old money habits and start working towards building their rich life?

We need to stop doing these things to us and we need to come together and make time for each other and make time for our money.

Now let's meet Frank and Jill. I'm about to open Frank and Jill's conscious spending plan, which breaks down their net worth, income and exactly where they spend. You can download and create your own conscious spending plan or CSP using my.

Free template@iwt.com CSP okay, Jill and Frank, they write, we both want to live a rich life, but we continue to block ourselves from making sustained changes. We are back in debt again after our second child. We're trying to get out of debt before our credit cards go high interest next August. She says, I always want to plan and think ahead, so I often bring up money conversations, but I end up chasing him and nagging him for things to happen. We struggle with overspending, me out of emotions and him out of resentment and emotions. He never spends anything and I always end up making the purchase. For the kids and the household, this is a very common dynamic. Let's take a look at their CSP assets. $341,000 investments. 27,000 savings. $42 not $4200. $42 in savings and debt is 449,000. Total net worth of negative 80,000. Okay, before I go on, I should point out that it's often that people have a negative net worth, especially early on in their lives. That is when you factor in things like student loans or other types of debt. But what is obviously and immediately concerning is the fact that we have anyone with only $42 in savings, but especially young parents. If I saw this in my own life, I would stop everything and I would focus on this. This is a red alert. It is a 10 out of 10 emergency. Let's keep going along. Gross monthly income is about $120,000 a year. Okay, nice. Fixed costs at 107%.

Okay.

Right there is the ballgame. They are broke. They are spending more than they make every single month just on fixed costs alone. So this is it right here. We know why they feel stressed. Why we know why they are fighting about money, avoiding money, using words like chasing and nagging. It's right here. Let's break down what's going on in this. Fixed costs, housing costs are not crazy. They're at about 21% or so. Got a car payment of $750. Nothing crazy as well. Let's see what else. Whoa. Debt payments at $1,571 a month. That's a big deal. Okay. And then groceries at $1,500 a month. It's difficult when you have two of those things. Let's look at investments. They're at. Predictably, they're at zero. Savings are. What the hell. Savings are at 5%. But that 5% is $300 a month for Christmas. And then guilt free spending says negative 12%. I don't believe that. I believe they're probably eating out, probably spending on a bunch of discretionary stuff. I almost guarantee that they are spending a ton of money on kids stuff, people, people who are in debt, especially credit card debt. It's almost 100% correlation being in credit card debt and an inability to say no to kids. So there's a lot going on here. But I'm actually really excited to get a chance to speak to them. I think that we can make some big, big changes with their spending and probably zoom out and really help them think about money in a different way. So looking forward to talking to them.

We have big problems to attack here. The biggest fear is we're going to be bankrupt. And all of the fears that we have been fueling are going to be reality. We've tried to get us, our, ourselves out of this process three times and we're back here again. We don't have the tools. There's something deeper here we need, like a behavioral change. And I've seen your podcast and your videos and I'm like, okay, this might be the person who can like, help us get to that space that we're trying to hide from.

And if I could wave a magic wand right now, what would I do for you?

Showing us the mirror, right? Like how we're both playing a role in this because it's, it's two of us. It's not Just him. It's not just me. It's both of us.

What do you say, Frank? If I could wave a magic wand, what would you want me to do for you?

So that question's tough for me because like the magic wand is just obviously just erase our debt and be done with this. What does that do for me? Ultimately, I want you to do it again. You know, like I want to learn how to stop going into debt, how to stop these compulsive behaviors of just, oh, it's 50 bucks, oh, it's 20 bucks. You know, I want to stop getting myself into more and more problems. The one thing I want to take away from here is hope. I want hope that there is something that we can do to problem solve. And I want there to be just this like motivation that, that we can find to just get out of this what feels like a forever ending hole, like a tunnel that's just slanted downwards.

How would you describe your financial situation today?

Our financial situation to me is credit card debt. In this economy with two kids is tough. You know, you felt like you get ahead, but then you don't because clothes, kids, school, you know, everything is just getting expensive and more and more each day. And so our financial situation is right now we're just bearing through these first five years while childcare is like 1500 bucks a month. So we're just like grinning this out because we're just going down just enough every month in the red.

Okay, Jill, how about you? How would you describe your financial situation?

I feel like it's self inflicted. I think the childcare is a piece of it. If we could just hone in our impulse control and the once, I think we would be fine. To me, I think it's a communication and being on the same page thing, and being proactive versus reactive and being conscious and able to make decisions together. And to me that's where the problem is, is that we just can't be on the same page ever. Or it's an argument or the other person's like, okay, whatever, just do whatever.

So I'm hearing a few different things. I'm hearing your financial situation is self inflicted, which is kind of contradicting what Frank said about clothes are getting expensive, childcare is getting expensive, groceries are getting expensive. And I'm hearing communication is an issue. You don't really talk about money. Or if you do, it's quick, it's fly by night, it's disagreements or fights, one person retreats. Did the two of you have a shared vision of money?

I mean, we started your program, and we realized a lot of the things we want for the future are very similar, but we never had had that conversation before, so we really never knew that.

That's good. Which program are we talking about, My book or my money coaching program? What are we talking about?

The online money coaching program. Oh.

And what happened when you finished the program?

We sure didn't really.

What happened?

The same cycle that we always have fear.

We get scared. We don't want to look at the reality.

So you go through the videos. Did you attend one of the calls?

Yes.

Okay, cool.

What did it feel like when the two of you were on the live call?

Beer.

I got hope.

Hope.

Fear, shame, and hope. It's interesting. Were the two of you sitting together?

We couldn't.

We have to divide and conquer with the kids.

Okay. How old are the kids?

Seven months and four years.

Wow. Okay.

All right. So you're really in it. Young kids.

Okay.

Did you talk about the money coaching after you attended the session? Yeah.

Yeah.

We're hearing all these things about how people can live your rich life, how to. How to be somebody that is enjoying your own current financial situation as opposed to someone who's Dr. A Ferrari. Like, I don't want that. I want to be able to just relax and go places and go hang out with the kids and not fear poverty. That's. I want to be able to enjoy the. The small things. Just being able to eat out, not look at the bank account. That's what I want to do.

What does it take in order for you to do that?

Get our finances together in such a way that I don't have to question that the money's not there.

Okay, but then I'm confused because you all didn't finish step two of the program. Yep.

Why? Got busy. As we say.

As we say, we didn't have time. Is that a phrase you use a lot?

Every day.

Is that true? Do you not have time?

It feels like it. Between kids and work, it just seems like we're. We're running around like crazy people. We're like, well, our one son has autism. Our other son's seven months old. So between daycare and work, you know, we barely cross paths until it's Saturday or Sunday.

How long would you say that this disconnection of time between the two of you has been going on for seven months? Since the baby came.

The second one?

No, no, no. For 11 years.

Wow. Different.

Come on. It's been the entirety of our relationship.

As far as the disconnect. Of the time. I mean, we've always avoided the conversations, but now that we're trying to come at the conversations, I feel like more times than not, we're struggling to get the time.

Jill, if I asked you, what is your rich life? What would you say to me for.

Me to be able to spend time with the kids and my husband and to, you know, have shared memories and build memories with the kids and be able to take care of our health, to just be able to live through the day and not be stressed and on edge because our finances are on my mind all the time. Not being where I want to be, not being able to have those conversations. I have tried to figure out ways to come at conversations, and I always feel like it's not successful.

Do you remember what my question was?

What's my rich life?

And do you see where we just ended up?

Me feeling like I can't have a rich life with my husband?

I would say you talking about your problems versus painting a picture for me of your rich life. What I can hear from both of you is a really narrow vision of where you are today. So much so that when I ask, what is your rich life? Within 30 seconds, we're back to why you can't live your rich life.

Yeah.

Frank, do you see that pattern as well? Yeah. Do you both believe that there is a future where you can answer a question like the one I just gave you with a positive?

When you asked the question earlier about, like, how did you guys feel after you went on, like, the monthly call? We both felt like, oh, look, people do do it. People have done it. And so the conversations to me was like, oh, like, we can do this.

Well, I appreciate that. And that's one of the things I love, is being able to expose and show you other people who've gone through tough times and made it so good. Okay, it sounds like you two conceptually believe that there's a future that can be brighter than today.

Perfect.

You've got to believe that. Let me understand a little bit more about day to day lifestyle. Jill, what do you do?

I'm a therapist. I own my own private practice.

Cool. All right, Frank.

I work from home. I work in it.

Okay, great. All right, let's talk about the finances. If you had to describe how you feel about your finances in one or two words, what would be the words?

Busy like a hamster wheel.

Okay.

Have you ever felt calm about your Money in the 11 years you've been together?

Yeah.

Yep.

I used to be the sole income where for a While when she was going to school. And so I, I had no debt. I just had to worry about affording the next thing. And that, that was calm. Even though it was. I now realize looking back, I had it good. Then I was like, oh God, what.

Am I gonna do?

So you're a worrier. So it's interesting that, you know, you worried back when you were even calm, you were worrying. Now you're worrying more, you're going into debt more. And you mentioned to me if I had a magic wand, you would have me wave it, pay off the debt. But even if your debt was paid off, would you stop worrying?

Absolutely not. Okay.

Something deeper than the amount on the spreadsheet.

Right.

Do you notice that when I ask questions around how they talk about money, Frank uses the phrases we're too busy or we can't find the time. Now remember, they're parents with young children and it makes a lot of sense. They are incredibly busy. It's also a story that we commonly tell ourselves. We are too busy to do X and we find that the results show up, for example, with their finances. I'm not here to tell anybody how to run their time or even how to run their money. But once you get comfortable with the story that we are too busy, suddenly it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. In fact, it's easy to dismiss most parts of managing your money. As Frank just mentioned a moment ago, he's been a worrier since before they had debt. So there's a lot to unpack around his relationship with money.

Let's listen in as he talks about.

The money messages he heard as a child.

I grew up in a house where money was like, you didn't have it and if you did have it, it was spent. Ridiculous. You know, Bill's not getting paid, but you go order 90 in pizza as a kid, you're like, oh yum. Pizza as an adult, that's a poor choice.

Did you grow up poor?

I would say middle class. Was self destructive behaviors.

Very interesting. Where, what part of the country did you grow up in?

Columbus, Ohio.

Okay. What do you remember your parents saying about money when you were a kid?

We don't have any.

What else?

We got some. Let's go spend it.

And they spend it on family stuff like pizza or anything else.

Pizza, toys, adventures. We would go like tubing down the creeks, you know, we would go to camping, eating out, stuff like that.

And then what happened when you didn't have money again? What would they say to you?

There's no money, can't Go do those things. We gotta wait till the next check.

Do you ever see your parents talking about saving or investing?

I didn't even know what stocks were. I heard of, like, people investing. Of course, you know, you've watched movies, but you're like, how do you even approach that?

When you look back at your childhood, what lessons do you take away about money? Save it.

I know it kind of contradicts what.

I just said, but save it.

That's the lesson I took away.

Save it all.

Don't spend anything.

But it's a little contradictory based on how much you're spending right now, right?

Yep.

When the kids came along, it was like a brain switch for me. I was like, well, they need it. I have to give it.

Wait, doesn't this sound like you just switched right into your parents?

I don't want them to know, oh, we can't afford it. I tell my son, you know, you gotta. You gotta save up for that. I'm trying to teach him lessons that I need to teach myself. You know, I'm trying to say, like, we only have five bucks. He goes, picks out a $8 toy. And I'm like, oh, the budget's fine for this one.

You can get away with this for about a year and a half more.

And then.

And then they get too smart. They know what's going on. Dad's over here telling me one thing and doing completely the opposite. Kids are really smart. You better find a new line that's.

Not going to last much longer.

Yeah.

What do you think will happen when your son starts to point out how you're saying one thing and doing another? How are you going to react to that?

You know, I'm gonna feel horrible. Like, dad, we don't have it, but you can go do that.

Very interesting response. You're going to feel horrible. Not, I'm going to make a change right now so that he never has to point out that I'm saying one thing and doing another. What do you get out of that? Out of saying, I'm going to feel horrible instead of talking about what you are going to change behaviorally, I have.

This path in my mind that it's not changing. Sounds like I'm looking in the future and I see no change.

It seems to me I agree. You believe your future is already determined. And therefore, when you look at your future, which is a future you don't like, the only natural conclusion is, I'm going to feel horrible. Can I tell you I look at it differently? I look at your future as Unwritten, of course, you have some clothing that you are wearing. It came from your childhood. These are messages you picked up. These are lessons you learned consciously and unconsciously. So, yes, you're bringing those with you. But the next chapter of your life is not written yet. And I believe I have control, I have agency over what is going to happen to me next. Do you think that way or not?

I think I can learn to think that way. I think I can change and do something different. That's why we're here. I wanted to come here.

I'm glad you're here, and I appreciate you showing up and going full force with me and with your wife. Okay, so you grew up. Not a lot of messages about positive saving, investing, a lot of we can't afford it. Now, I'm curious about you, Jill. What do you remember about the phrases your family, your parents used when you were growing up as it relates to money?

I mean, I grew up poor, so the phrases were usually that we don't have it or we can't have it. We'd go to the thrift store for clothes. When we go to the grocery store, my grandma would always go down every single aisle, every. And then she'd have her coupons, and so she'd whip out every single coupon. And I remember, like, we'd ask, like, oh, can we have this cereal? Like, all of our friends have the cereal. Can we have this one? And she'd be like, no, we don't have a coupon for that. And so it was just constantly like, no.

You mentioned your grandma.

My mom has mental health issues, so my. My grandparents raised me, I think, after like, two or three.

Got it.

Well, I'm sorry to hear that. And did that lead to you getting into the world of therapy?

It did, yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, it was a rough, rough childhood. But my grandma was a big proponent of, like, getting services. So, you know, even though, like, we were poor, she made sure, like, we had the state insurance and went to therapist and saw people, and she always made sure we went to the doctors and dentists. So health was, like, really important to her. We were poor, but we didn't need anything. We just wanted stuff.

Of course. Every kid wants stuff.

Yeah.

So you grew up a lot of talk about, we can't afford it. And did that same type of conversation continue throughout your teenage years?

It changed. You know, I would say probably in elementary, my grandpa started talking to me. Like, my grandpa was the. The financial guy. So he would be always sitting on the porch reading a finance book. Like, he would always talk about the investments he was doing. So there was three of us, my sister and my brother that they took care of. And I'm the youngest, so he always would talk to me about like, hey, these are the books. This is where I keep all of your guys, stocks. And when I started working, he was like, you gotta put back, you know, your 30% for savings. And I just. No, I. I didn't want to hear any of it. To me, it was like I finally had my own money to do all of the wants that I was always told I couldn't do. I wanted a cell phone when I was in my teens and they were not going to pay for a cell phone, so I had to buy my own cell phone. You know, I wanted extra clothes more than what they were going to be able to afford. And so then I would purchase those extra clothes. So it bred this concept of like extra money, when in reality, like, that was the money that I needed to be preparing myself for life with. And he was constantly telling me that, but I just was like, in one ear and out the other. It wasn't until we got out of debt, like the second time where I was like, oh, like, this is what he meant. This is why this is so important. I'm getting older and I don't have any savings, I don't have any retirement. And I'm like, man, all of that extra money that I was using for, like, things that I wanted, that I didn't need, I could have had all these savings because my needs were met with my grandparents. They're just like the ones. And so that's exactly how I spend as an adult. And that's the challenge I have is the telling myself, no, you do not need that. You have your needs met. That's my issue.

Is that the challenge you currently have as well?

I still fight it. Yeah. I mean, there's. I go through periods of time where I'm like, I'm on it. This is my plan. I want a retirement. I want to not work my whole life. And then literally, like, I'll just be like, oh, but I really want that.

Feel like a battle, like you're fighting a battle with yourself.

It does. It literally feels like my adult self is fighting my child self. Like, I'm trying to like, tell the child self. Like, dude, like, I know you want that, but like, you really. Time is running out. Like, you gotta get yourself together. And then the child self is like, I hear you, but I really don't care. Like, let's just get this one thing that's powerful.

How Jill admits that her grandparents provided for her and tried to teach her to save. But because the message she internalized was, you can't have that, she struggles to manage her impulse control. It's like driving a car. Her grandparents only taught her how to hit the brakes, and that has turned into all or nothing for Jill. Earlier, we heard Frank describe the money habits that he picked up from his parents and is now passing on to his own kids.

There's a lot at play here.

But I will say, even the very situation they are in gives them the opportunity to rewrite their story. Let me tell you what I mean. They're the parents of young children. That's incredibly stressful, overwhelming. Of course you're busy.

Maybe true.

But what if we rewrote that story to say yes, we might be a little overwhelmed? Of course we're going to be busier than we ever thought. And we get to make amazing changes and to build a healthy relationship with money that will be passed down for generations to come.

We'll be right back after this short break. You know what? You don't need somebody coming online in.

Their little YouTube video telling you, here's how I travel.

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