“How can we raise 3 kids if she only makes $15k?”

Are you afraid of money right now?

Like in this very instant? Yes. I feel like we have a lot of potential and if we can't get on the same page, we're not going to be able to realize that.

It's hard for me to even like think about that because I'm like, well, we're not there. That sounds nice. Sure. I'd love that too.

It's like him saying like, I want us to fly to space.

Yeah, Pretty close. I know that. I know what the problem is.

You do?

I avoid money. Uh huh.

Why?

Because it gives me anxiety.

Why?

Because I don't want to have the responsibility. Why?

Keep going. Stay with me.

Because I can't trust myself.

Why?

Because I've never had to trust myself with money.

Now we're getting there.

I do have to change. Our relationship is suffering because of it and like our future is like on the line.

Meet Caleb and Alex.

They're 27 years old, they live in Tennessee and they are worried about their finances, especially because of their growing family. They have a two year old daughter and their foster parents about to adopt one and three year old sisters. Now what's fascinating about this conversation is how many stories they have about their perspective on money. And some of those stories might not be true. You're also going to hear about their fascinating religious background which has affected the way that they interact with money.

Let's meet Caleb and Alex.

It was probably a week and a half ago we had a fight, essentially. I was like, you worked really hard to get a bachelor's degree and I know you have a really awesome job, but settling for $12,000 a year is just not a great use of that knowledge that you've worked so hard to gain.

And what did she say next?

She doesn't want to leave her job.

Okay, and how did you respond to that?

Not happily. Essentially said, you know, I don't necessarily love my job, but I'm staying here because it's what our family needs and I'd love for you to find a job that you love. It just needs to be something different than what it is now.

I see. How long have you been having this type of conversation?

Probably since the aquarium decided to hire her as a non temporary option.

But there was another one where we were sitting next to each other in bed and I think we're both on our phones and I don't remember how it came up.

What time of night was this? Was this 9:00pm 10:00pm?

11:00Pm I think it was around 10:00pm.

Okay, that, that, that tracks.

Which for parents is about 12:00am yeah, right.

All right, so you're. You're sitting in bed. Everyone's like on their phone just trying to decompress. And then. And then one partner's like, babe, we need to talk.

And then the other one's like.

Is.

That pretty much how it went?

Yep. He likes to scroll reels on Instagram. So I think he had found, like a project. And he was like, you know what? We could do this.

What is a project? What is that?

Like some kind of home project?

Okay.

We built a tiny home. That's a fun project.

All right, Alex, he comes to you and then what happens?

And I was like, well, we have other things to do and we need to prioritize that with the money that we have and the time that we have. And he was like, well, if you were making more money, then we could do more things faster.

What do you think about that?

I agree to a point. But I also don't think he has a very fair assessment of what the job field is like in a non engineering field.

Okay. You think that he doesn't understand your industry? Yeah. Okay, gotcha. How many hours a week are you working?

20.

What do you do with the other 20 or so?

So we have an Airbnb as our tiny house. As an Airbnb. And so I flip that between guests and do stuff around the house and kind of just like try to clean up the chaos that the kids make throughout the rest of the day.

Got it. And your kids are 1, 2, and 3, I understand.

Yep.

That's amazing. The 1 and 3 year old are foster sisters, is that right?

Yes.

Awesome.

Okay, great. And how would you describe the way that you feel afterwards?

At odds.

At odds. Okay. What else?

Defeated. Just because we can't seem to get on the same page. I feel like we have a lot of potential and if we can't get on the same page, we're not going to. I feel like as long as we have to keep looking at coupons when we go grocery shopping. I like coupons, and you're really good at finding coupons, but I'd like to strive to move past that stage in our life.

That's kind of interesting, that back and forth right there. Alex, do you strive to move past using coupons?

No.

Yeah, exactly.

Even if we were to have more money, I would want to save that money.

Let me just cut in here for a second. This is a really important point in many relationships where one partner sees money differently than the other. One of them thinks the other Needs to get past doing something. Hey, we have enough money. You should get past needing to cut coupons. But that partner never actually asks this one question. Why do you cut coupons? The surface level answer is, I like to save 20 bucks. But if you go deeper, you might find out that they do it because they love the thrill. Still deeper, you might discover they cut coupons because they saw their mom doing it. And if you keep going, you might even discover that they equate their self worth to their ability to save the family money, regardless of how much money they currently have. I don't know what Alex and Caleb's situation is yet, but I wanted you to catch that quick exchange because it's so revealing about them and maybe even about your own relationship, I guess to bring you back.

We got married when we were 20 and completely broke. We didn't come from family money or anything. And we've been married almost, you know, at first it was, we can only buy things with coupons. So I feel like it's just a reminder of, you know, that time, and I don't. I want to get past that.

Okay. How would you say you feel when you find a good coupon?

Excited. Because then I'm like, the $5 that I saved there, I can put towards something I actually want.

Okay, Caleb, you have a smile on your face, but it looks a bit confused. Can you tell me what's going through your head right now?

I guess I'm still stuck on just. That's not something I want to have to use. And it feels at the moment like we're still in the place of having to use coupons.

Okay, Alex, what do you hear when he says that?

That he doesn't want to become his mom?

His mom is a couponer.

Not even a couponer so much as just, like, always worried about, like, every single thing. It's like, oh, this costs money. I need to find the clearance aisle, and we're going to get everything from the clearance aisle.

Yeah. So I know the coupon is not the main. The main part of the challenge in your relationship. I know that. But do you both find it interesting that it's. We've already kind of honed in on this one thing.

It all makes sense when you say it like that. I struggle with seeing the big picture. I'm focused on, like, the little details of being like, we need to save $3 a year, and that'll turn into, like, lots of money. Like, cumulative, Cumulatively.

Okay, great. That's a great candid comment. Do you Struggle in other parts of life as well to see the big picture.

And you.

You tend to go towards the smaller. What's in front of you.

Yeah.

Okay, cool. Great. Let's talk about that then. I'm very curious. So can you give me another example in your financial life where you tend to focus on the smaller picture rather than the big picture?

Well, with any purchase for myself, I get really stressed out. Even if it's like $5 for coffee, I'm like, ooh, like, how much do I need this coffee? I don't really need it. Like, I could be spending that money on the girls or on Caleb or on. Like, we could. We could save it and we could put it into, like, a different budget item that could go towards our vacation.

Hold on, hold on, hold on. Before we go on, how come none of those options were. I could spend it on something I love.

I have a really hard time spending money on myself.

If I can jump in real quick. So after reading your amazing book, we implemented a fun money budget.

Good.

And that concept was just absolutely mind blowing to Alex.

What do you mean? What happened?

When you suggested it, she was like, oh, gosh, I don't know what to do with this.

She's like, I'll buy the girls some blankets. And you're like, that's not the point. It's for you.

Yeah. She tried to get me my Christmas gifts with it, and I was like, no, you can do that, but the bulk of this is for you to spend on yourself. She loves spending on other people, but not on herself. And we've been working on that.

Okay, Alex Z. That a fair assessment of what happened?

Yeah, I just don't feel free to spend money. So when I had, like, free reign, like, I could spend this money on whatever I wanted to, and it was all mine. And there was. I don't know, at one point, I had almost $2,000 in it, and I hadn't spent, like, any of it. I don't know what to do with it. I eventually did spend it, but I spent it, like, on Christmas presents and then a bachelorette weekend with one of my friends.

What do you take away from that?

That spending money doesn't have to be scary.

Yeah. Or. Or maybe it's. It is scary the first five, 10, 15 times. Even, like, riding a bike or skiing is scary. But you start off slow, right.

Go on the bunny hill, and then.

You get a little better and a little better. You're going down the greens and the blues and still scary. But you're like, I'm strong. I can handle this. Do you see a future where you might be able to feel like that about spending money?

I think so.

If I were to say to you, what if you won half a million dollars tomorrow, what would you do with it?

I'd turn to kale and be like, how do we invest this so that we get more money and so that I don't have to worry about money.

Right, right, right. And same thing if you won 10 million. Huh? It would be the same thing.

I'd probably take like a million off the top and be like, we can go on a trip with this. And then the rest of it needs to go into savings.

You want to take a $1 million trip after you struggle to spend $2,000? Where are you going to go for a million dollars?

I probably wouldn't, like, actually spend it, but I'd be like, oh, like, I have a budget, like, up to a million, so. Which in my mind is like, infinite. So I'm like, I could do whatever vacation I wanted to do. I wouldn't have to worry about, like, the end of the money.

And where would you go if you had a million dollars set aside for vacation?

We are about to adopt our girls and Caleb will get six weeks of parental leave. And so that is, like our plan, once we're able to get passports and everything, to go for like a six week trip like all over Europe and see friends and see places and stuff I like.

I mean, it sounds amazing. Just out of curiosity, this. In this Hypothetical, you have $10 million and you're still concerned about a six week vacation policy. What do you think about that?

He has to go back to his job.

He does. Okay. And where would you stay when you took this trip to Europe for six weeks? Because that's how much PTO your 10 millionaire has been has. Where would you stay?

You're not going to like any of my answers.

I already love it, trust me. Tell me, where would you stay?

Airbnbs.

Airbnbs, okay. You're going to, like, get a discount, like, if you stay six nights, they'll give you the seventh free? Something like that, yeah.

Okay.

Yeah. And would you take your daughters with you?

Yes.

Okay. Three daughters, right? Three young daughters. It's a lot of work.

Yeah.

Just the two of you taking three daughters, Right.

I'd be open to, like, seeing if friends wanted to come for, like, parts of the trip. And then there'd be times where they could watch the girls and we could do something.

What do you notice about that hypothetical, Alex?

It's not like a dream vacation. It's like a realistic vacation.

Yeah, it sounded like you were living the vacation that you would have taken when you were 20 or 25. I mean, it's nice to go to Europe. That's awesome. But like, even in a hypothetical, if you can't dream with me, it kind of makes sense why it's so hard to deal with money on a day to day basis. Is that fair to say?

Yep.

That was striking. Most people find it really difficult to totally imagine a different way of spending money, even in this hypothetical. Alex was still staying at Airbnbs, Still. Still bound by a vacation policy, totally unable to imagine a different way of spending. You see, for someone who likes food, they might eat out at different restaurants. If they're spending more, they might splurge for their friends. They might even hire a chef to cook at a dinner party. Or they might even take a trip to Thailand to eat at an amazing street food place they saw on tv. But if you live in the weeds day to day with your Money surrounded by $3 questions, it's almost impossible to think like this.

Hold that thought. We'll be right back.

So here's my question for you. What would be your first vacation if you had $10 million? Let me know in the comments below.

Alex, how did you grow up with money? What do you remember about money when you were a kid? What do you remember your family, your parents saying?

Nothing. Like, blatantly, like, oh my gosh, like, we have no money, but more of like the we have food at home. Like, we don't need to eat out because we have food at home. I grew up part of my life in Georgia, and then we moved to Costa Rica and then Peru.

Oh, wow. Why did you move there?

My parents were missionaries.

Ah, okay. All right.

So then all of our money was not like, our money.

It went to the church.

We had to support Ray. So we had to go around for about a year and talk to churches and be like, hey, can you give us money so that we can go and proselytize?

And would they do it sometimes? Did you do this as well?

Yeah.

Any siblings you have?

Yep, all. All three of them.

Okay, so the four kids and then your parents were doing missionary work for how long?

I was on the field for six years.

Okay. Did you like it?

Yes and no. I had some very good experiences that I'm really grateful for. And I'm fluent in Spanish, which has been super helpful and I love it. But then also, yeah, it was very stressful in Lots of other ways.

Are you religious now? No. You're not.

Okay.

Are your siblings?

Yep, they are.

Wow.

This is. This is relatively recent. My dad is a pastor.

I see. How did your relationship with Caleb play into this?

We have grown a lot together. So we started. We met when we were 15. We started dating when we were 17. We got married when we were 20.

Wow.

So we were like children when we met. So we've done a lot of growing together through this whole process. I've talked to him and he's talked to me, and we've been very open about, like, where we each are, like, in religion and, like, and everywhere in life. Yeah. So, like, nothing has, like, changed, like, all of a sudden with Caleb, but, like, we have changed and grown together over the years.

That's cool. And Caleb, are you religious as well?

Maybe slightly more than Alex, but not very.

Got it. Okay. All right. Well, I definitely want to ask more about your upbringing in just a minute, Caleb, but it's helpful to hear. You two met at age 15, got married at 20. Okay. I'm starting to have a clearer picture. Alex, can you go back to your childhood? Who handled the money as you grew up? Was it Mom? Dad?

I think my mom handled it more, but my dad spent it more.

What do you spend it on?

Everything. He's like me in the way that, like, he has lots of ideas and doesn't, like, necessarily follow through, but he will have an idea and spend money on it and then drop it, and then whatever that thing is, is never used again. So.

So what, he, like, buys a guitar and then he plays it for two weeks and then that's it? That kind of thing?

Yeah.

Wow.

See?

Nods from both of you. Okay.

Yeah.

All right, so, like, give me. Give me the lightning bolt round of, like. What has he run through? Guitar is just one example. What is it?

Aquariums?

Yes.

Hold on.

Don't you two have aquariums in your house?

Yes, yes, but we take care of them.

Oh, okay.

All right.

We're a biologist and a wildlife and fisheries graduate, so.

Fair enough. All right, so aquariums. That's a good example. What else?

Random diets. So, like, not necessarily to, like, lose weight, but, like, paleo versus vegan versus gluten free. Like, all. And, like, all of those are expensive if you, like, start them and then stop him. So, like, buying everything that's gluten free and then never eating it.

So would you say that he's into bads? Is that what you'd say? Like, I'm gonna try this. It's hot. It's like the minute it gets hard, I'm going on to the next thing. That kind of thing. Okay, fine. All right. Any lessons that. That taught you consciously or unconsciously?

My dad and I are very similar, and that causes some issues as well as, like, it has made us, like, very close in some ways. But one of the things that I, I think, picked up from that is that I can't trust myself because, like, whatever I start, I'm just gonna stop it. So why spend money on it?

Wow, that's pretty interesting. That's pretty profound. The idea that you can't trust yourself is, I think, one of the saddest, most haunting things that somebody says. It's one thing. It's really heartbreaking to hear somebody say, I can't trust my spouse. You know, they don't follow through. They never do what they're going to say. But when somebody says, I don't even trust myself, I feel like I don't.

Have any examples because I, like, I hold myself back so much.

How do you feel?

Like I just don't even let it get to that point.

Tell me the sentence you say in your head.

I'll be like, oh, I want to learn how to make stained glass. I would love to learn how to do that. I'd be like, oh, but why would I try to start that if I know that I'm not that artistic? I might not like it. I don't have room in the house for it. I probably couldn't sell it or anything. So then it would just kind of be like a money hole. So then I'll just drop it.

So you talk yourself out of it before you even get started.

I just. I don't. I don't know. I've always been like a. A. A side gigger. Like, I always like to find, like, different ways. Like, I want to be productive, I guess.

If you're not productive, what does it mean about you?

I'm lazy? Or, like, I'm not. Yeah. Not living up to my potential.

And if you don't live up to your potential, what does it mean?

We're not going to have the future that we want, like, with money or time or whatever.

Okay, how much of this came from the somewhat puritanical upbringing of, like, we must be productive and, like, we're here for a purpose? I'm seeing a lot of nods from you.

Yes, a lot. A lot. And that has taken a lot of time to, like, detangle.

How.

How have you been detangling? It.

Just kind of looking at my childhood and experiences and being like, oh, I thought that was normal, but it was very much not normal, right? And I had all of these things just, like, thrown at me and drilled into me that I'm like, oh, like, that's not exactly what I believe or how I would want to treat or raise my children.

We all have stories that we tell ourselves about who we are. What do you think the stories are.

That you tell yourself?

Do you tell yourself you're a good parent? You tell yourself that you're bad at money? You tell yourself that you would be happy to pay taxes if they were actually going towards something productive? Each of those is a story. And sometimes stories are true, but often they're just something we make up because we heard it from someone else. Alex tells herself she's a side gig person. She also says she can't trust herself. Think about it. Imagine seeing her dad jump from one fad to another, Never understanding the joy of setting a big goal and following through. She never had that modeled for her. She would think it's normal to jump from one thing to another. And then, as life pushed her to have to finish things, she would realize she's never built the skills to do so. But instead of acknowledging that, like most of us, she creates a story to make sense of the world. I'm a side gigger. I just like to have a lot of balls juggled in the air. And eventually, the story might even morph to something like, I shouldn't start that because deep down I know I'm not.

Going to finish him.

Camouflaged by things like, I shouldn't start that because I won't be able to sell that and make money for the family. This is how so many of our beliefs start. They're just stories we tell ourselves. But the good news is, if we can acknowledge those stories, we have a very good shot at changing them. Now listen to the next story she tells herself.

Let's fast forward to adolescence. Anything happen with money that you can remember that stands out in your family?

Part of the visa process of, like, being somewhere else as a missionary is that, like, you can't make money. So I wasn't able to, like, have a job or anything while I was living in Peru. So I felt very, like, stifled, I guess, not being able to, like, make my own decisions because I couldn't make money. So then I couldn't, like, pursue things that I wanted to do because I didn't have money for it. My entire life was, like, devoted to doing mission work and stuff. So it made it hard to even find time to do stuff for myself. And even if I could, I couldn't find, like, I didn't have the money to do it. I guess I wanted the freedom. I wanted the freedom of having my own money that I could do with what I wanted.

I don't believe that. You told me you couldn't even spend your own money.

Well, yeah, because. So I. This makes it seem like he, like, withholds money from me, which is not the case, but, like, the way that I'm comfortable is, like, asking him. Because then if, like, whatever it is ends up not working out or I regret it, then it's not my fault. It's his fault because he approved me.

Mm. I hear you. I mean, as you say that out loud, you're smiling. What does it make you feel as you hear yourself say that out loud?

I'm a child asking for money. Yeah. Like, again, going back to the. I can't trust myself to make good choices, so I need somebody else to, like, okay it so that I'm not the one that is, like, the cause of it.

Right. Where do you think that comes from?

I don't know. Like, the whole concept of not being able to trust yourself, I think, like, comes from my religious background.

Can you just connect the dots? Because some people won't understand that.

Well, like, in Christianity and stuff, like, you don't trust yourself. You trust in God. You put your faith in God. Whatever happens is, like, meant to happen or as God's plan. Yeah. So I think that's probably a big part of it.

What else?

I guess also, like, not being able to make my own money as a teenager, so then having to ask and have somebody else approve it or be like, no, which the answer was most of the time, no.

Yeah.

So I kind of do that to myself now.

Do you like when somebody says no to you?

Sometimes. Sometimes. It's comforting.

Yeah. It reminds you of being a kid, right?

Yeah. I don't have to take, like, responsibility or even, like, think about it. I'll be like, oh, can we buy a thousand dollars worth of stained glass making things? And he'll say no. And I'm like, okay, cool.

Yeah.

Like, I don't have to think about that anymore.

Yeah. Caleb, does any of this surprise you?

No.

That's an honest answer. Caleb, what is it like for you watching Alex with this journey? You know, it's kind of about money, but it seems like it's a lot more than just money. Yeah.

I mean, I'm proud of how Far she's come in becoming her own self, true self. I guess so. And I'm here for her every step of the way.

Cool. Is it stressful for you to watch her go through this journey?

It has been. At times, it's just been fun to grow with her more than anything.

Yeah. How old are you both?

27.

27. So been together 12 years, and those are formative years. 15 to 27. Whoa. Like, you really change, and then you have kids in the mix. Three kids. So that's a lot of changes. Okay.

All right.

I appreciate that. I appreciate a journey where two people commit. We're going to change together. Do you have any resentment towards the way that you were raised when it comes to your faith and now how it affects your view on money?

In some ways, yes. It's taken a long time to even realize, like, how deep it goes. So for a while, I was just like, oh, like, I'm just fundamentally kind of, like, different or, like, messed up. I don't know. Like, I just don't know how to do things with money. And so I'm just gonna give it to Caleb because he knows how to do things, and he has, like, the. The time and the patience and the interest to do the research and figure out what to do. So I'll just be like, you. You handle that. I'll handle other things.

But. Is there a but? But I've realized that. What?

I've realized that he feels very alone in that role, and he doesn't want to have to make all the decisions and have all that responsibility. And also, like, I don't know what's going on with our money.

Yeah.

And I just. I just don't understand, like. Yeah. Where things are. Where or where things should be going or how to do things. And I've resisted taking on that role.

What do you get out of the current approach that you've been taking a.

Sense of control without actually having to have control.

That's profound. Caleb, what do you think Alex gets out of the. Ignoring money but worrying about it at the same time? What do you think she gets out of it?

Having something to worry about.

Yes, definitely. Definitely important. Because if you didn't worry Alex, what would you do?

Can't picture it.

Yeah. Yeah. You can't even remember a time where you haven't worried about something. Right. Right. Do you think that, to you, worrying means you care?

Yeah.

Okay. Caleb, what else do you notice about this?

I mean, I think your dad doesn't worry about spending money.

Oh, he doesn't. That's good. Pick it up, Alex. Pick up the ball that he just threw you.

Yeah.

He doesn't worry about spending money, so he's very reckless, and he's the reason that they don't have money.

Whoa. As a defense mechanism, what do you need to do so you don't end up like dad?

Worry about everything, right?

I worry enough for all of us.

I hear lots of religious beliefs and personal stories here, and we can't deny the effect that religion plays on people's beliefs about money. For example, if you've been raised to have faith and to trust in God, it makes perfect sense that you might translate those beliefs over to your finances. And by the way, collective religion and individual investing can coexist. As one of the signs on my mom's poster says, trust in God, but lock your car. The real point here is that you don't form your beliefs like a robot by reading a bunch of facts about compound interest and splitting different labor in a relationship. Your beliefs are a messy collection of random ideas that you hear from friends, parents, even TV shows. It's much more like a quilt that's been cobbled together and added on for generations now. I asked Caleb about his upbringing.

My parents were Christian missionaries in Costa Rica. My parents moved when I was about six months old. However, I did have to go back to the US to, I guess, ask for money from churches and families and stuff. And I didn't grow up with much parents. Never really talked about it. Didn't really have a job until junior year of high school. And then I got a job that paid something like 14 or 15 bucks an hour, which is pretty good for a junior, especially when it was doing almost nothing.

Where did you live when you were on these missions?

So we had a house kind of out in the middle of nowhere. Yeah. In rural Costa Rica. Before that, they worked in really rough neighborhoods, and my mom worked in the women's prison, proselytizing and doing, like, Bible studies, that kind of stuff. Once I was in middle school, I was too busy with school and homework.

And have you had the same journey with religion that Alex has?

Similar. I'm a musician, so it's been probably harder for me because that is one thing that Christianity does really well is promote musical talent. It's been a challenge leaving that. I guess I've had a very similar journey. Just feel like I have probably given up a little bit more as far as that being such a big part of my identity.

Got it. Okay. What else do you remember about your parents as it relates to money, let's say. As a teenager, any memories come up?

In part, we had to leave Costa Rica, which was one of the hardest transitions in my life, because my parents were getting a divorce and because of that would no longer be getting money from many of their previous sources. It was never, like, explicitly brought up that that was what was happening, but I knew I was smart enough to know what happens when a missionary family goes through a divorce.

Got it. What do they do for money? Like, how are they doing financially now?

My dad's not doing great. He has a family trust that provides him a boost, and then he works as a chaplain to get by. And then my mom is. I think she's doing okay again. They never really talked about money. It was very much a this is a grown up topic, leave the room sort of thing. She's doing okay. I've heard her talk about struggling with money, but she also has enough money to go on vacations and do home, like, home improvement type of stuff. So they're doing okay? I wouldn't say they're doing great, but they're doing okay.

Okay. What else do you think you took away from those experiences, particularly as in your teenage years? How do you think that's affected the way you view money?

I mean, I never want to have to rely on someone outside of Alex and I to survive and thrive.

Like with. Is that referring to the church?

Yeah. And I actually did work for a church out of college for a little bit. And so I guess that is part of it. But more than I just want to. I want us to be able to provide for our family on our own and do well. I mean, I had to learn it all for myself. I'm very grateful to my friend who suggested reading your book.

You want to give him a shout out?

Sure. Drew Tatum.

Drew, my man.

Big shout out to Drew for changing the trajectory of this family forever. Drew, DM me. I'll send you a signed copy of my book. I'm so thankful that you have spread the word about I Will Teach youh To Be Rich. And if you're listening or watching this podcast, I'd love it if you can think of three friends whose lives would be changed with my book, just as Drew changed this couple's lives. Send them a copy and send them a note of how I Will Teach youh Be Rich changed your life, and you might potentially change their trajectory forever.

Is there ever a moment where Caleb suggests something and you're like, yes. Unequivocally, yes.

I don't think so. Not like money. Not with money.

Not even a Panda Express meal. Okay.

Unless I have something for free. Then I'll be like, yeah, I have a free chicken sandwich. We can go to Chick Fil A.

Because free means what?

No guilt about spending money on myself.

I mean, usually. Usually I'm like, you know, I'm like, did you grow up religious? You know, religion, love, guilt. Then I found out both of you grew up missionaries, so I think we've kind of, like, crossed that one literally decades ago. Got it. So, you know, you can see that the guilt is deep.

Right?

Can you imagine, Alex, a future where one day you can make purchase decisions without feeling guilty? Do you think that that future is possible?

Yes, it's possible.

How else do you feel about money? You feel good about money?

When I don't see numbers in the red, I feel good about it.

Okay.

And, like, what about, like, spending on the family, taking a vacation? Something like that? Do you feel good about that or you feel bad about that?

Oh, I love it. This past winter, we took our first. I called it our. I'm pretty sure at one point I at least called it our remit vacation. We saved something like 7,000. And I was like, this vacation is going to cost 5,000. And we ended up spending all 7,000 of it.

Good.

And I didn't feel bad about it at the end. I was like, that was awesome. We saved for it, and I want to do this again.

Wow. Where'd you go?

Went to Puerto Rico for two weeks.

Awesome.

That's so cool with all the kids.

Amazing. What a great trip. Alex, how did you feel about that trip?

It was amazing.

You liked it? I'm going to guess you were not involved with the financial side of it. Is that correct?

Yep.

That's typical for each time you travel.

Yeah.

Yeah, I'd say so.

All right.

And we were able to bring my brother and pay for. We had two of our friends come with us the whole time, and we were able to pay for their. Or three or four nights at a hotel for them.

Wait, how come this real vacation is better than the hypothetical vacation where you had $10 million?

What the.

Can anyone explain that to me?

Because I had to plan it.

Like, it's kind of surprising that in the actual vacation which you actually went on, it was, like, cool. You went for two weeks, you took all the kids, you brought your brother and paid for them and all this stuff. But then in the real vacation, it's like, oh, like, we gotta get a coupon to Airbnb. And then let's like, stay at the place with the buffet next door. What the hell? Alex, do you find that a little, like, concerning?

Yes.

Okay, good. That's all I want. It is concerning, but. But very illuminated. Cool. All right, I think I got it. So, Caleb, if you had to, in one sentence, if you had to tell me what you wish Alex would understand about money in your relationship, what would you say?

Right now we are doing all right, but we have this shared dream, and we've talked about it, but we can't achieve that on our current trajectory.

Are you afraid of money right now?

Like, in this very instant? Yes.

Okay.

Yes, but I don't want to be.

Oh, okay.

All right.

Alex, what do you. What do you think? Hearing your husband say that he's afraid of money right now?

I understand.

Are you afraid of money, Alex?

Yes.

You are too?

Yes. So I don't mess with it. I let him do it.

Ah, so you're afraid of money, so you avoid it, Alex. And Caleb, you're afraid of money. So why. What is your conclusion?

Monitor it and control it.

Yeah, like, monitor it nightly in an app.

More than nightly.

More than nightly.

Like, throughout the day. He will open that app. What in the bubbles?

What the bubbles are. What are these bubbles? Actually, I don't give a about these bubbles. Some type of completion, gamification, whatever. So how often are you hugging into this app? Tell the truth, Caleb.

Honestly, sometimes I do it mindlessly.

Okay. And just out of curiosity, like, when you do it.

Not so explicitly, but I can tell when he wants to be in charge of something and, like, have it be done and closed out and completely. Fine.

Hell yeah. Look at that smile on Caleb's face. He's, like, dreaming about it.

He's like, I used Jira so well.

I closed that ticket so fast. He loves it. All right, fine. And Alex, do you think that when he asks you to get a job that pays more, do you think that maybe that has something to do with his desire for control in an otherwise uncontrollable world?

I don't think that does specifically. I think it's more like he has always wanted me to reach my full potential, and he sees that I'm not currently, and he wants me to just go ahead and, like, skip all the steps up to, like, getting my dream job.

I see. Do you agree that you're not fulfilling your dream potential?

Yes. But also, like, in this field, I feel like you have to kind of, like, work your way up. So I'm like, this is a normal part of me having to like, figure out my way to getting my dream job.

Did you go to college?

Yes.

How did you pay for that?

Scholarships and grants and some student loans.

All right. Still have loans?

Yes.

All right. And so you graduated. I believe you studied biology, right?

Yes. All right.

What. What kind of job did you think you were going to get when you were studying?

The reason I went for biology versus, like, a more specific field is that I could get a job wherever. I could be like a lab tech or I could be, like, a zookeeper. So I was hoping for something closer to, like, Aquarist zookeeper, something with animals. Anything in conservation, like a field biologist, anything like that. But I was willing to take whatever Caleb said.

Something to the effect of, we're doing okay, but we have this vision for our lives, and we're not living up to that potential. Alex.

I understand because it's our shared vision. But I really like my job, and.

I don't want to change more stories.

The idea that you get a degree and you're willing to take whatever job is a story. The idea that I have to work my way up also a story. And so is I like my job, and I don't want to change. That story implicitly says I don't want to change because the next job will probably be worse. Now, my philosophy is, if you're going to make life decisions based on a story, why not write a better story for yourself? Like in college, I wrote a story that I could get amazing internships even as a sophomore. And I created a story that I was going to make money and live a very rich life with amazing people around me. I have to acknowledge that I had a lot of advantages, and those advantages affect the stories that I can even think of.

Just remember this.

What stories are you telling yourself? And what if you chose a different story?

We'll be right back.

Now, I wanted to help them crystallize a vision together. So I walked Alex through. Through an exercise to communicate more effectively with Caleb.

Get curious. What shared vision?

What do you want to see us doing?

What shared vision? Can we make sure that we're talking about the same vision? What vision do you have? And then I'd love to share what vision I have. Try it, Alex.

What vision do you have? And then we can figure out if it's the same vision.

Hold on. This is a really important point. I want you to start using I, because right now you're invisible in this conversation. You're asking him, which is great, and you're talking about we, which is the two of you. But Nowhere am I hearing you. Just the same as nowhere do you spend money on yourself. And I need to bring you as a powerful woman into this conversation, so I'm going to give you the exact words to use. You'd literally just borrow the words from me. Caleb, I totally hear what you're saying. Can we make sure we're talking about the same thing? What is your vision of us together? And then I'd love to share my vision of us together.

Caleb. I totally understand, and I want to make sure we're headed towards the same vision together. What is your vision? And then I'll tell you what my vision is.

I would like for us to be able to take the girls on one or two trips totaling three to four weeks a year, either to other countries or national parks here in the US and not have to worry about where that money's coming from. Just like Puerto Rico. I'd like to have it all saved for and planned out. I'd like for us to be able to put our girls in extracurriculars without trying to figure out where the money's coming from. I'd like for us to be able to hire a housekeeper for, like, once a week. It's really hard staying afloat of with cleaning the house with three toddlers. I want us to be able to spend time going out to eat with the family and again, not having to worry about coupons.

You want to do this all alone, Caleb?

No, I want to do this with Alex. I want to be on the same page. I want her to be there with me every step of the way. I want you to take ownership of our finances with me, of our plans of where our money goes.

How's that feel to say, Caleb?

Good. I feel like I have said it in the past. Maybe not in that way, but I do feel like I have shared that.

I think you've shared the trips part that rolled right off the tongue. You did what I do. I love to talk logistics. Oh, let's.

Let's talk.

I talk about this with my wife all the time. She's like, hold on. Forget the logistics. How do you feel? And I'm like, what's a feeling? Let me pull out my wheel of emotions. Not a joke. I have a wheel of emotions. Therapist gave it to us. It's very helpful. Sometimes I don't know how. I'm like, I feel good. She's like, no, pull it out. So you were right. Like, you were just cranking. You said one to two trips, one to two weeks a year.

Girls in Extracurricular.

Hire a housekeeper, Go out to eat. Like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. You've obviously thought about this, but it was only at the very end that you said what I think is actually the most important, which is I want you to take ownership of our plans.

Of where our money goes.

I want you to participate as a partner. Have you said that before?

Yes.

Okay.

Alex, have you heard him say that before?

Yes.

And what was your response when he said that?

Okay, I'll try.

And you didn't, Right?

I'm open to trying it.

She has been better since we went on our first money date. But, I mean, it's participating in setting up the budget for the next month. That's in the extent. It's not really taking ownership as much as helping out.

Honestly, I think they should take the win on having a money meeting at all. That is amazing. What I'm really trying to do here is go deeper than the numbers on a page, which obviously does not connect with Alex. It doesn't even really connect with Caleb. In fact, numbers themselves don't really connect with anyone. They're not that inspiring. Oh, God. I know. A lot of Fire guys right now are sitting back cracking their knuckles as they gear up to write 15 paragraphs on how creating their crossover point calculation is actually super motivating to them. They love the idea of building an FU fund and all this other. But they're wrong. Numbers themselves do not equal a rich life. You've heard it time and time again on this podcast as I've spoken to multimillionaires who. Who still worry about money. Numbers are an important part, but overall a small part. And once some dude finally retires at age 51 with a 64% savings rate and no hobbies and no skills on how to spend money, I can tell you right now, his Excel model is not going to keep him warm at night.

It's hard for me to even, like, think about that because I'm like, well, we're not there. That sounds nice. Sure. I'd love that, too. But we're not there.

It's like him saying, like, I want us to fly to space. That's. Is it. Is it at the same level for you? Like, flying to space and what he said?

Yeah, pretty close.

Okay, that's pretty interesting, right, Caleb? Did you know that?

No, I didn't know that. You saw it as such an unachievable sort of goal.

Let me repeat what you said for your vision, Caleb. The one that Alex candidly says is equivalent to flying to space. Which is one to two trips a year for one to two weeks. Put the girls in extracurriculars without wondering where the money's coming from. Hire a housekeeper once a week. Go out to eat without worrying about coupons. And for you, Alex, to take ownership of our plans, including where our money goes. Be a partner. Alex, as I say that out loud, do you see the qualitative and quantitative difference between.