How the best get even better -- with Marshall Goldsmith

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Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here from I Will Teach youh to Be Rich, Growth Lab and Brain Trust. Today I'm thrilled and very honored to have as my guest Marshall Goldsmith. Marshall is the author of the very famous book what Got you here Won't get you There, one of my favorite titles of all time. And he's going to talk to us about how he has coached and worked with top leaders from Ford, GlaxoSmithKline, and many other companies that you've heard of. He's going to tell us what happens at the very highest levels of business, of success and of performance. Let's take a look. Marshall, thank you for being here.

Thank you.

It's a real pleasure. I have loved your book. I love the title. What got you here won't get you there. And I love the concepts inside it.

Killer title.

So good. So let's talk about all this. While we were backstage, you mentioned something that I thought was so interesting. I just want to dive right in. You said, I don't work with losers, I work with winners. And that could be the whole theme of today's discussion. I want to start with what's the difference between the two? And why do you choose to coach Fortune 500 executives, people in the Middle east who are very, very wealthy and successful? Tell us about that decision that you made to work with those people.

Well, you know, I've got to credit one of the greatest leaders I've ever met in my life who is one of the great leaders in the world. His name is Alan Mulally. 2014 ranked the number three greatest leader in the world in Fortune magazine and number one greatest CEO in America. So I'm Alan's coach. So in my coaching, you see, I don't get paid if my clients don't get better. Have a very unique coaching system. So I'm working with Alan. Alan improves more than anyone I've ever coached. I spent the least amount of time with him. Something is interesting. So I did a chart. Time spent with Marshall Goldsmith and improvement. There was a clear negative correlation between spending time with me and getting better. So I thought, that's a humbling chart. So I go talk to my buddy Alan. I said, alan, of all people I've ever coached, I spent the least amount of time with you, and you improved the most. So I showed Alan my chart. I said, alan, the way this troubling chart looks, had you never met me, you would really be good. So I said, what should I learn about coaching from you? He said, your Biggest challenge as a coach is customer selection. You pick the right customer, you win. You pick the wrong customer, you lose. And he said, really focus on helping great people get better. Well, if you do a Google search, helping successful leaders in quotes, the top 500 hits, 450 are me. And the rest of the world is 50. That's my brand.

I see. So the thing I love about today is we're not going to spend a bunch of time focusing on the criteria or things where if you're at a certain stage, you need help sort of managing your basic finances, etc. We're not talking about that. We're talking about success and becoming even more successful.

Exactly.

Okay, great. I long ago told my team, we're not here to help everyone in the world. We're here to help the right people.

Right.

There are a lot of people who need help, but that's not our role in this world. We're here to help the people that we are built to help.

That's what I do. I have a very limited. My coaching clients are very tiny. Tiny base of people.

Now tell us about your coaching clients. Who are these people? Why do they come to you?

I can tell you who they are. In my book Triggers. I'm very proud of this. 27 of them endorse my book.

Aha.

So I can. It's not a secret who I've been. The coach. I've been the coach of the CEO of Ford and Pfizer, Glaxo, the president of the World Bank, CEO Walmart, the head of the Mayo Clinic. Really, very, very distinguished people. Head of the New York Public Library, Red Cross. Just a lot of very, very important leaders from around the world. So it's interesting working now with a potential leader at Alibaba.

Oh, yeah, yeah, Interesting.

China was just in China last week.

Now these. You know, you think about any successful athlete, every single one has a coach.

Right.

But the average person doesn't have a coach. And even the average executive doesn't have a coach.

Well, they didn't used to. Okay, this is changed. I'm very proud of this. See, 30 years ago, one thing I'm proud of, that 27 major CEOs endorsed the book. They all admit to having a coach. Yeah, they all said, I have a coach. Yeah, well, 30 years ago, I'm not sure any CEO would have admitted to having a coach.

So what changed?

This is a big change. Well, I think people realize, just like you said, the top 10 tennis players all have coaches. These are important people. Why wouldn't they have a coach. Why wouldn't they have someone try to help them improve their leadership behavior? Let me give you an example. I maybe end up working with one of the most successful people in Dubai, and he's a billionaire, multi billionaire. So I said, why do you want to coach? And he said, you know, I want everybody that works in my businesses to try to get better. And he said, I'm a leader. I want to look at every one of them and say, I have a coach. I'm trying to get better, and I just want you to do what I'm doing. Yeah, well, to me, that's powerful. Lead by example, don't lead by talk.

Yeah, okay. I want to talk about habit number two in your book. Habit number two is adding too much value already counterintuitive just by the name alone, right? What does it mean?

Well, a classic problem of smart people, particularly especially technical, technically engineers, scientists, electrical engineers. The worst mathematics major is terrible. Adding too much value. Now, what does that mean? I'm young, smart, enthusiastic. I come to you with an idea. Now you think it's a great idea. Rather than just saying, great idea, our natural tendency is to say, well, that's a nice idea. Why don't you add this to it? Well, the quality of the idea may go up 5%. My commitment to execute the idea may go down 50%.

Why is that?

It's no longer. It's no longer my idea. Now it's your idea. My commitment goes away. One of my good coaching clients retired a few years ago. J.P. garnier. He was the CEO of a very large drug company, Glaxos Medcline. I asked him, I said, jp, what you learned about leadership as a CEO of this huge company? He said, I've learned a very hard lesson. He said, my suggestions become orders. Now, I said, if they're smart, they're orders. If they're stupid, they're orders. If I want them to be orders, they are orders. And if I do not want them to be orders, orders. Anyway, so I asked, jp, what did you learn from me when I was your executive coach that helped you the most? He said, you taught me one lesson. Help me be a better CEO and have a happier life. I said, what was it? He said, before I speak, stop and breathe and ask myself one question. Is it worth it? Is it worth it? And he said, as a CEO of this huge company, 50% of the time, if you had the discipline to stop and breathe and ask, is it worth it? What did I decide? Am I right? Maybe. Is it worth it no, see, effectiveness of execution is a function of a, what's the quality of the idea? Times B, what's my commitment to make it work? We get so focused on improving the quality this much, we may damage the commitment that much.

Yeah, Very interesting. You know, when I was in college, I'm now reflecting on experiences I had in light of these frameworks. When I was in college, one of my professors, he's one of my mentors, he gave me one of the best pieces of advice I'd ever been given on presentations. He said, okay, you're all going up to do a group presentation. There'll be four of you up there. When one of you answers a question right, as long as it's 80% correct, everyone else just shut up. If it's horrifically factually wrong, then one of you can step in and correct it. But just shut up. And so I'm up there with my other team members and somebody answers a question and they say something, I feel like I have something really important to add. But I heard his voice ringing in my ear. Just shut up. And yeah. Could I have answered it a little bit more accurately? Maybe. But as you point out, win the battle, lose the war, not worth it. Okay, let's talk about habit number five, which is starting with no but or however.

Classic. Classic problem of smart people. No, but, however. I talked to you. The first word of mouth, no. When you said shut up, you're wrong. But. What does but mean? Disregard everything you just said, however fancy word. But I find my clients $20 every time they start a sentence with no but or however, $20. And most of these are rich people, to be honest. If they drop $20 on the ground, it wouldn't be worth picking up. But they don't like to lose the $20. Someone would rather die than lose the $20. So one of my clients, I'm going over the feedback. He's stubborn. We're going over his feedback report. He goes, but, Marshall, no. I said, that's free. If I ever talk to you again, you start sentence with no, but or ever, I'm going to fine you $20. But, Marshall, 20. No. 40. No, no, no. 60, 80, 100. He lost $420 in an hour and a half. At the end of an hour and a half, you know what he said? Thank you. He said, I had no idea. I did that 21 times through throwing it in my face. How many times would I done it had you not been throwing my face?

Now isn't that interesting? Somebody who made it to the very highest levels of his or her career and had never realized that, well, nobody's.

Going to tell him now. I find them $20, and the money goes to a charity, and they pick the charity. It's so funny. People hate losing money. So One guy went, 20 bucks, 40 bucks, 60 bucks. He goes, this is expensive. I said, you made $35 million last year. This is $20 going to a little homeless child. Shut up. Go. Sure, right. Take 50. My worst example is my friend, Mr. Jim Rao. I'm going to see him a little bit. Mr. G.M. rao is a wonderful man. He's in India. He has a company called gmr. They made the. They built the airport in Delhi and Hyderabad. He's just a great guy. And he's donated. I think he donated. I Forget the number. $340 million to charity or some ridiculous amount. Anyway, I'm working with him. A couple days Later, I'm finding $20. He goes, same charity. 20, 40, 60. So he goes, this is expensive. I said, what are you talking about? You just donated $340 million the same charity two days ago, and now you're carving about 20 bucks. What's wrong with you? So he looks at me and goes, oh, I forgot. I forgot. How do you forget donating 340 million bucks? Well, here's the point in his value system. Him donating 340 million to poor people, that's winning 20 bucks, losing.