“I feel like the parent in our marriage. And I hate it”

One of the things I love to spend money on is travel. My wife and I will travel for months every year, and in the last 12 months we've been to Japan, Mexico, New York, Vegas, many places. Now, over the years, my wife and I have developed our own rules for travel and I want to share those with you this Saturday. Those rules include which hotels are worth it, why we tip $20 every night for housekeeping, and how to use money to create magical experiences. So this Saturday, I'm going to be sharing my travel rules in the newsletter. Notice I said my for all those Internet reply guys who want to sign up and tell me all the reasons I'm wrong, don't even bother subscribing. I don't want you. But for everybody else, if you want to have a magical experience when you travel and if you want to avoid just doing the touristy usual sightseeing, I want to share my travel rules with you because it's not going to be shared anywhere else. To get these rules, you can sign up for free@iwt.com podcastnewsletter and make sure you sign up right now because it comes out this Saturday, July 22, and it will not be shared anywhere else again. Iwt.com podcastnewsletter.

Acting took me some great places, and then I came back home to New York and all of a sudden none of that mattered. Like you were just another head servant. Stakes being a waiter actor sort of makes you feel like you're failing in life. I went from being someone respected in my field to just some schlub. And that, I think, made me feel pretty diminished for a long time, made my alcoholism that much worse. I have a really hard time admitting that I'm worth saving my money for. I feel sometimes like I don't have the tools necessary to live up to the expectations I promised I could meet. My reaction is to back away from all things money related because I scared. I'm scared of money, to be honest.

I'd like you to meet Nicole, who's 41, and Matt, who's 37. They've been together for nine years, and you can tell in this conversation that.

They really love each other.

But in their relationship, there's been alcoholism, family deaths, and career difficulties, and all of that has left lasting marks that.

Make it hard for Nicole and Matt.

To be on the same page about money. Nicole feels that Matt doesn't care that she's always in the front seat pulling him along, and in fact, he will even admit that. But recently he started making a Lot more money. And he's realized that even though he's making more, he continues to struggle with his money psychology. Let's get into today's conversation.

We share a budgeting tool together. You know, I mean, and the truth is that I use this budgeting tool, and he'll occasionally jump in and try to make sure that everything's in order. And I was kind of going through and making sure that everything was where it was supposed to be. I checked in on his budget piece, and I saw that he had a credit card interest payment that got charged.

And what happened when you saw that interest charge?

I got pretty upset, and I came to talk to him about it. Hey, what's going on? You told me that you paid your credit card off in full.

What did you say to her?

I'm sorry. I'll fix it. And I did. But it doesn't mean that behavior that caused that to occur isn't a problem.

The illustration there of kind of not being on the same page is that an interest charge. 35 bucks, whatever it is, all that stuff adds up. I've got future plans in mind that I want this money to go toward. Right. When these sort of things slip through the cracks, it makes me feel like we don't have our. We're not both looking at the same big vision.

Is it about the $35? Like, if you incurred a $35 interest charge every three months for the rest of your life, would you be able to afford that?

Yeah, it's not about that. It's about the. It's like the principle of the thing, and it's about, you know, feeling like things are being kept for me.

And so when you mentioned that you are the one who primarily logs into the budgeting app and then you check on his budget when you check on it, what does that mean?

I'll check in to see if it's updated. I'll check in to see if he's where he told me he is. You know, if the savings looks like what we've talked about and if, you know, the credit cards are paid off. I wasn't entirely surprised to see that.

How would you characterize that relationship where you check in on his budget?

It's like a parent, child. I hate it, you know?

You hate it? Why?

I don't think that's a healthy relationship for partners. You know, it puts me in a position to have to feel like I'm. I'm the boss and I have to come in and, like, you know, tell somebody else to be responsible and like, it just doesn't. I don't know. It doesn't create a good environment between us. Right.

How long have you two been together?

Nine years.

And how long have you been what you would characterize as the parent when it comes to money?

The whole time.

Day one?

Yeah.

What. What. What do you mean, day one? Like date one?

No, date two.

How did that come up on day two?

Well, no, as soon as we started spending a lot of time together, I was living in Manhattan. I'm an actor, and I've always been just getting by, just paying the rent. Nicole had this great corporate job. A salary. That was something I was not familiar with. That was something that was astounding to me. And I have a really hard time getting out of this mindset of earn it, spend it. And I'm also. I've also got. I've got addiction issues. I'm a recovering alcoholic. I've got impulse issues. And that all adds up to how I spend my money. I just built bad habits, I think, and I never got a system in place to take control of that and to put away from my future.

Just so I'm clear, are you in recovery?

Yeah.

Okay.

Five years.

Oh, congratulations. Was your spending behavior different when you were not in recovery versus when you got into recovery?

Well, I was spending a lot less money on booze, but I don't think that. That doesn't surprise me, since COVID actually gave me an opportunity to get a job in tech, and now I'm earning a salary. And we always say that now we have a partnership. I would say the last year and a half or so has been more like a financial partnership instead of this parent relationship. And I understand why Nicole was so upset about the credit card thing, because I spent so many years lying to myself, promising myself I would do better, but I never really did. And you know how an addict talks. Oh, I'll be good for, you know me. I'll be good. Next time, I'll be good. And it just felt a little bit like that when she noticed that discrepancy that. That charge of interest, and it. It really didn't feel good. I was really excited that we were going to be able to talk to you, because I. I need some guidance. I don't know how to. I always said I was never a numbers guy, but that's really just an excuse to be lazy, I think.

So do you act? Do you get paid for acting work that you do? Okay. And I assume that that is sporadic or, like, variable income. Is that fair? Okay. And Then you have a full time job. Which is what, freelance? Or is it W2?

No, that's A.

That's a full time salaried position, stable income.

Yeah, I did a few things like making sure I take money out to put toward my 401k. I put aside a little bit of money in an emergency fund, but day to day I'm not really changing. I just have simple tastes and like 10 times more money than I used to. So I'm spending maybe twice as much as I was but earning a lot more.

Matt's spending hasn't really changed since the addiction has stopped. Because I think the real difference is that he's got more money now and can sort of COVID himself. Right. He was in a position before where, you know, every paycheck, every dollar was like just making it to the next one.

It's. Is it one of those examples where somebody has bad habits with money and they start making a lot more and the habits don't really change at all. There's just more money to use the same habits with?

I think so.

Why are you paying off credit cards manually, Matt?

I don't know. You're asking a six year old how the car operates. I don't even know how to set up an automatic pay. Like honestly, it's. I have not given myself the time to think about how to do this properly because it's just, I just like get it done, like taking my medicine and move on with my day. And I don't think about it again until I have to think about it.

Okay, that's a fair answer. What I'm already hearing is certain behaviors that are more indicative of someone just starting out their career. Someone in a career with really variable income, like an actor. They're always like, am I going to have enough to make it by this month? I got to borrow from here. Da da da. But you're not in that situation anymore.

I've really got to find a way to make it more meaningful to me, at least a little bit. My expenses are chaotic and erratic. And if I set a specific amount to pay off each month, I don't think that I'm afraid I wouldn't have it.

Or do you like money?

My reaction is to back away from all things money related because I scared. I'm scared of money, to be honest.

And so when you think about it, what does it feel like?

It feels a little overwhelming to me, to be honest. Thinking about how I'm going to split up and what I need to survive and what I need to enjoy my life. And I would like to be making enough money that I don't have to think about it.

Are you?

Not yet.

How much do you need to make more?

I think if I could do about. And, Nicole, back me up here. If you think my numbers are right, if I could double what I'm making.

Okay.

Okay.

Hold on. I have a question for you. If you doubled your income, would you still be manually checking on your credit card every month? Tell the truth. Nicole's smiling.

I don't know. I like to intervene and do it manually. I feel like I'm taking more control of it. Maybe. I don't know.

I do it, too.

Okay, you do it too. Why? You like the control?

Oh, yeah.

You both like control?

Yeah. No one's into control over money as much as I am.

Oh, okay. You're like a 10 out of 10 controller.

Yeah. Yeah.

Does it work for you?

I mean, define work. If work is, like, constant anxiety over money, even as a person who has money, then, yes, it is working. So good.

Is there another definition of work that we might use? Like, what might my definition of money working for me mean?

Knowing that your money is going to the places where it needs to go and where you want it to go.

Yeah.

And then not worrying about it.

Yeah.

And just living the life that it gives you.

Do you ever see a future where that's possible for you?

I think it would take a lot of work. There's a lot of big, big anxiety tied up with feeling like I have enough and feeling like I'm going to be able to, you know, like having enough now is going to translate into having enough down the road.

Yeah. And is that independent of Matt? If Matt were not in the picture, would you still feel that way?

Yes, absolutely. I think that it is amplified having a partner who, you know, I like. I don't know if we're gonna get there together.

Do you only talk about money when there's a problem?

For a long time, there were only problems.

And from the beginning. Nicole made it very clear from the beginning of the relationship, I want to partner, even if we're contributing 70, 30. Contribute what you can toward our future, toward paying for renovations for the house and trips. We love to travel. It's very important part of our lives. And she wasn't going to be in a relationship with someone who couldn't do it. And I thought I could, and I tried, and I'm just not very good at keeping that promise, I guess. But I want to take a little bit of the onus off of her. Because she made it very clear from the beginning what she wanted.

And finally, during COVID you said, okay, you lost your job, you got to find something else because you. You have to bring in some money. Yeah. And then he did.

Yes.

Any lessons from that?

The first lesson was like, why didn't you do this? How many years ago? Because you always weren't capable of doing it.

And what is the answer to your own question? Why didn't he do it? Can you answer that for me, please, Nicole?

Because he wasn't ready. I don't know. Maybe there wasn't enough pain.

Keep going.

And. Oh, I see. Yeah. Because there were no consequences, right? Because he would fall short and I would pay for the thing and we'd get to still go on the trips and like, do all the fun stuff and go out to dinner and like, I'd be pissed about it. But apparently that wasn't enough.

So that just becomes part of the relationship. Right.

You turn this into an episode of intervention. Found the enabler.

I mean, pain, what we think of as pain is. Is construed differently by different people. To have one partner a little pissed off once in a while is very acceptable to most people in a relationship, especially if you get to live a good life and travel and. Etc. And, you know, we have these sort of cultural examples of the Costanzas and this and that, you know, like, ah, they're always sniping at each other. It's funny, but I think what's happened now is that from what you two have told me, you've had this huge change in your relationship and the income and the.

And now you both have more money.

Than ever before and the dynamics have changed, but there's still some remnants of those old behaviors and attitudes. And that's concerning.

Right.

Am I reading it right, Matt? Yeah.

There are a couple clues I want to highlight. First, it's always so funny how people have this deep belief about how they'll act one day in the future. And if you ask them even a single question, their entire belief structure often just crumbles. Matt's like, I need to double my income to not have to think about it. I'm like, if you tripled your income, would you still be logging into your credit cards manually? And then he sheepishly admits, yeah, he would, and that he likes control. Then Nicole goes, I like control. I go, is it working? She goes, well, I feel constant anxiety over money, so I guess not. Honestly, I just love these answers. They are so real. Most people have very little insight into their own attitudes and behaviors. We think we know what makes us happy, but really, we often just mimetically chase what other people do, which is why so many people end up buying a house in the suburbs or getting a fancy car buying, making a certain amount of money and still feeling empty inside. So whenever someone tells me if I had $5 million, I would never, I.

Just start going.

In my head. I'm already thinking about something soothing, like my favorite hotel rooms. Around the world, you don't know what you would do with $5 million or $10 million. We don't know what we would do in different life circumstances. We often don't even know why we bought that thing last Thursday. This podcast is about helping you understand why you do the things you do so you can live your rich life.

Complete the sentence for me, Nicole. If I don't invest as much as.

Possible, then I might end up living under a bridge.

Thank you. Thank you. That's real, right? Have you ever said that before?

Yes, many times.

And where did you get that message from? What movie? What mom or friend said that to you?

I don't know. We always feel broke even though we have tons of money.

Nobody ever knows.

Nicole, did you grow up poor?

No. No. Middle class.

Where did this come from? This need of, like, oh, my God, I'm going to end up in a van and I'm going to lose it. Where did it come from?

You know, I think sort of seeing people I know and relatives get to their retirement and not be in the position that they thought they were going to be in or that they're on a very fixed income, so they can't do anything. They can't do anything. And these are folks who I had always thought of as really, like, having their shit together. And, you know, the. The travelers and the family who was always hosting and had the pool and had it all together. And, you know, now life looks very different. There was a moment when they had to sell their house, when they couldn't afford the house anymore, and they'd sell the house and move to a new and much smaller place in an area that they didn't want to live in. And, you know, now they're waiting for sales at Walmart to make it to the next paycheck, and that was never the case.

Do you think that they know what happened? They understand?

I don't know.

It's very difficult for us to make the connection between what we do now, for example, in your 30s and 40s, with what happens 25 years from now. It's very difficult. It's even harder to look back in your 60s and 70s. First of all, just mathematically, we don't understand compounding and things like that. But psychologically, it's really devastating to look back and. And admit, oh my gosh, that pool actually cost me $500,000. When I add up all the expenses, it's really hard. We would never say that. Nobody who's 70 years old would say. They would say, well, we loved it with our grandkids. I'm glad you took that lesson away, Nicole. But I wonder if there's a way to do it more positively, less fear based. Yeah. What would that look like if you were to say instead of, I don't want to end up in a van, what could you say instead that would be more constructive?

I think. I'm not in that same position and I am making conscious choices now so that I won't be in that position.

How does that feel?

That feels really good. And that last piece, I mean, I don't think I'll get there without him.

And if I can interject with something, I think that just by virtue of being the intelligent, careful and fantastic person you are, you're already on the trajectory not to end up that way. I'm not saying that things can't happen. I'm not saying that things are automatically going to go according to plan, but you don't have to try so hard.

You already do it.

Just by virtue of being true to yourself. We've also had a series of deaths in the family where they were in, I'm not going to say dire straits, but complicated financial situations and having to be the ones who cleaned all that up really put it into perspective that we can't be like this when it's our time to go. We don't want to leave our loved ones with a bunch of bills to pay him.

The deaths in the family were. Were they unexpected?

Yeah, my uncle passed away. I was his caretaker for the last couple of years. I mean, spectacularly terrible with paperwork and with, you know, so. So we had to learn a lot really fast about how to manage a lot of this stuff and get a will put together and make sure that his home was in his name and not the name of his ex partner of, you know, from 20 years ago.

What did you learn from that process of your uncle passing away? And I'm sorry he passed away.

I think how much. There are a couple things. I mean, how much people will just ignore the circumstances that are right in front of them, like to. I Mean, you know, my. My uncle going through this, had a year and a half and. And probably a good portion of that. He was in good enough health that he could have taken care of a lot of these things, and he just didn't want to talk about it, didn't want to deal with it. And. And seeing how each time he put these decisions off, it was exponentially more difficult for us to get them taken care of down the road. Right.

I'm curious what lessons you took away for yourself.

That I don't want to be that kind of a burden for my nieces and my family. I also took away how much easier it is, frankly, to die when you have resources.

Okay. Thank you for that, Matt. Were you involved in Nicole's process with her?

Very much so.

You were. Okay. What lessons did you take away?

Denial is a powerful thing. It can. It can change a person from an intelligent business person to a shell of a person just. Just trying to get by without any real options in their life. It can. It can force you into a corner until you have freedom left. I think he was afraid to face a lot of things. Fear of facing his bad choices, fear of facing the reality of the situation, of how much time he had wasted doing this or that. Instead of making sure he had a better future, pretending things didn't exist, like his sickness, he would constantly talk about how it was not a big deal and. And it really was. And the same thing was true with his finances.

Did you ever do any of those things in your own life, Matt? Oh, yeah.

Oh, procrastinate.

Okay. So you see the similarities between her uncle and your own decisions?

Definitely.

And does it change anything for you?

No, I don't think it does.

First of all, all you freaks are going to die. It's going to happen. Why are we so afraid to talk about it? I already told my wife the several conditions under which I don't want to live anymore. For example, if I can't squat at least 225 for one rep. And it. I made my parents talk about a will and appointing an executor. If you can't even discuss the fact.

That you're going to die, how are.

You going to live a rich life? It's impossible. You're not even acknowledging basic biology, much less calculating how much money you need, how compound interest works, none of it. It's like sitting there asking an orangutan to run a nuclear reactor. They don't know what a button is. Whatever. You don't want to talk about your impending death. It's your life. Back to Nicole and Matt. Now let's get specific with their vision. Let's focus on Matt, who hasn't allowed himself the space to dream when it comes to his money. And when I do that, it actually opens up a pretty interesting conversation.

I wish there was more specificity around what he wants.

Ask him. I'll listen.

What do you want? What do you want the money to do for you? And like, where do you want to be? What do you want to do?

In some ways, I don't know how to be more specific than I already have. I want to be able to live to 110 in a nice retirement community with a pool. And I want to go to Japan every year for the rest of my life. And I want to eat at five star restaurants with you and have a house full of dogs.

Yeah, that's great. I often feel like I'm in the driver's seat, you know, like I say, hey, you know, I want this. I want to be moving toward this goal. I want this kind of house. I want, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And a lot of times it feels like you just say, yeah, me too. I'll do that too.

But when you. But when you are so concise and clear and your ideas are so good, what else can I say?

Like what?

I. I'm not going to have a competing idea to your great idea to get us this house. It was fantastic. I know that you feel like I'm not engaged enough, but just saying, yeah, okay, that means that I agree with you. So if we are both thinking the same thing, why would I have more input?

I'm looking for like an improv. Yes. And I think, you know, sure.

Okay.

I'll keep that in mind.

Nicole, can you tell him why you're looking for that?

I think it goes back to feeling like we have this kind of parent child relationship and I don't want to feel like I'm just dragging you into doing the things that I want to do.

What do you want to feel like if you're. Right now you're dragging him like, what. What are those things on a boat? You pull people on a boat with those large. No, like a jet ski or whatever.

Yeah, yeah.

As you can tell, I don't really do water sports. Yeah, that's the metaphor that you currently have.

He's in the back.

He's having the. He's having the time.

Yeah. He's like, oh, he's got one of those sofas. You know, you're like flipping Around.

He's having a great time. You're in the boat. You're deciding, do I turn left? Do I turn right? Am I going too fast? I gotta look behind me? Is the wake too big? What's a different metaphor for what you would like instead of this boat?

You know, those things that bachelorette parties ride on where, you know, everybody's in the back pedaling together.

Like in Nashville.

Like a bike bar?

Yes. What do you think, Matt? You want to get on the bike bar in Nashville as a bachelorette?

Look, even the bike bar only goes in one direction.

I have a feeling, Matt, you seem like a pretty smart guy. I have a feeling you could have a really great idea that's actually better than Nicole's. From what I have observed, you've mentioned travel, dogs, Japan. Matt, take one of those. That's meaningful to you.

Which one would it be right now? Japan.

Love it. Who plans your trips to Japan? We both do. All right, that's good. That's a great answer. Matt, what would make your next trip to Japan magical? Not just nice, not even great, but truly magical?

Well, we're. We're going in August, and we're gonna be there during the Festival of the Dead. And I'm gonna be lighting a candle for my brother passed away in October.

And.

It'S going to be really special.

I'm sorry to hear about your brother.

It's okay. That would make it really special.

I love that. Sounds like you're planning to do that and honor him. Is this a trip centered around the memory of your brother?

No, we just happened to go places where cool is happening. We were just in Lisbon, and they were just doing Marty Grand. It's just. I don't know, we just go and. And it just happens to be the best time to be there. I don't know how it happens.

There's something special about that.

Yeah.

So keep going on that for me. You're there. You have your brother's memory. You're honoring that. That alone, very special. And maybe there's a reason that you're ending up in Japan at that very specific time. What would make this trip memorable for you, magical for the two of you.

It would be great to go away for three weeks without wondering about paying Nicole back for anything. Because that has been the relationship pretty much so far. She puts out the money, and I spend a few months paying her back. If we could just go with everything already paid for, that would be very satisfying.

What would it feel like to you?

It would feel. It would feel grown up.

Every.

Every time I. I hit. Every time I hit a milestone financially, I feel more grown up.

I love that.

Being a waiter sort of makes you feel. Being a waiter actor sort of makes you feel like you're failing in life. I was 32 or 33, feeling like I was 21.

And you felt like that because what?

Because I was living off tips, paycheck to paycheck, not setting anything aside, not planning anything financially.

And you're not doing that anymore?

No, not really.

Have you internalized that? No. No.

I have a really hard time admitting that I'm worth saving my money for and preparing a future for it. Being really poor for a really long time makes you. I don't know, makes some people. Gives a fire to some people, puts a fire under their ass. For me, it made me feel like I was failing. Made my alcoholism that much worse. And it's because of Nicole that I was able to stop drinking and start focusing on the things that are important. I. I went to school and got my master's, and I taught for years, and acting took me some great places. And then I came back home to New York, and all of a sudden, none of that mattered. Like you were just another head servant Stakes. And I remember coming back from grad school, and then my fiance and I broke up, and that was a terrible time in my life. And I didn't have anything, not even a. A chance to take a break and. And absorb that because I had to go back to work and start working my fingers to the bone right away. Living in Manhattan, paying a lot of rent, I went from being someone respected in my field to just some schlub. And that, I think, made me feel pretty diminished for a long time. I just. I feel sometimes like I am not. I don't have the tools necessary to live up to the expectations I promised I could meet.

Still feel that way or. No.

I'm searching. No, I don't think so.

Okay. I don't think so. Nicole, I noticed you were also wiping away some tears hearing that from Matt. Can you tell us why?

Hearing him talk about not feeling worthy, you know, wondering if I've contributed to that. It is huge to go from working, you know, in the service industry for your whole career to pivoting to sitting at a desk and being in tech, and not just it, but being great at it, which he has been. He doesn't give himself the credit. He doesn't take the time to really ingest. Kind of what an amazing transition he's made.

You want to tell him and What.

A huge deal it is, what you've done in the last three years. And I see this in you every time you apply yourself, whether it's your sobriety or, you know, making this career transition. I have never seen anybody do work like that for themselves. I'm so proud of you. And I. You know, I hope I tell you that enough, but I'm so proud of you. It's not easy, and it's not something that everybody could do.

Thank you. I love hearing that. Matt, how do you receive that from Nicole? How does it strike you?

I love her so much, and I. I appreciate her for that. She saved my life. She got me to stop drinking. She got me to believe in myself again. She got me to.

But you did that.

You know what I love hearing from the two of you is a lot of gratitude. I really, really love it. And it's very clear. It's evident there's a very complex relationship you both have with money, individually and together. And a lot of it is operating rationally from the situation you used to be in. Nicole making way more. Matt having sporadic income, Matt being an alcoholic. All different dynamics. Uncles passing away, it. It makes sense, but it's not serving you anymore. And I wonder if there's a way for us to change this dynamic, to more align with where you both are in life.

Yeah, I hope so, Matt.

I. I hope so, too, but I don't know what the answer to that is.

I was gonna say it's gonna take trust from both of us.

Let's go back and forth, one by one, toss the ball back to each other. Nicole went.

Now, Matt, any kind of reliable technique, any kind of system that I can use, because I feel like I'm floundering sometimes.

Matt, I overheard you in the screening video. You said that you love systems and techniques, I believe. Did that come from her acting background?

Yeah, I. I was. Before I went to grad school, I just sort of flew by the seat of my pants. And then when I went to school, we went to the Moscow Art Theater School, and I learned Russian techniques, and I learned the Meisner technique. Makes you director proof. It makes you budget proof. You can do anything, anywhere, because you know how to do it step by step.

Okay, I love that. So you see the power of a system. I like that a lot. Makes my job easier. Do you have any systems that you currently use with your money?

No.

Honest answer. So can you imagine what it would feel like to put in a couple of systems and they just work?

I would love that.

Maybe one of Us has to give up some control.

Matt.

Making sure we stick within budgets instead of saying.

Okay, what's it going to take? Doing more of.

Putting more of what we're doing on autopilot. Because it works, Matt.

What's it going to take more of? What did Nicole just do that really moved you? Just a couple of minutes ago, she.

Told me that she was proud of me.

What was she doing there?

Expressing her gratitude.

Yeah, I think you could do more of that. Yeah?

Yes, I do.

I think that would be great. What's it going to take doing less of in order for you to both update your views on money? Nicole?

I think for me, at least, I need to get out of the weeds and stop checking balances every day.

Yeah. By the way, when was the last time you logged into your account on your phone? How many hours ago?

Like, right before we got on the line.

How many hours?

One. One. Okay, very nice. So you have to stop playing in the weeds. That would be checking accounts every day and, like, updating your spreadsheet all the time. Maybe not that. Can you imagine a future?

Yeah, I can.

Yeah. It's called Utopia. What would you have to do less of to update your view on money?

Add to cart.

Oh, really? Just like buying random, impulsive stuff.

Do less of emotional shopping.

Thank you. So when you're feeling down, for whatever reason, you'll have to replace that behavior with something else.

Cool.

It works. All right. What are you noticing as we do this little exercise? Doing more, Doing less. Updating your view of the way you think, talk, and behave with money. What are you both noticing?

It feels we can focus on behaviors. Right. I can look at things that I'm doing. Right. I can look at things that I'm doing wrong or that I should be doing less of. It takes a lot of the, like, heaviness out of it.

Really, what talking about this does is peeling the onion, getting down to the core. The. The issue is emotion. The issue is emotional addictive behavior, whether that's shopping or whatever, and an emotional need to control the money. Once those things are addressed, it'll be easier for the other things to fall into place.

You know, the addictive behavior is something that Matt should talk about with his therapist, but what you noticed me doing there is helping them rewrite their story and doing it in a very, very specific way. Nicole admitted that she checked her accounts one hour ago. Matt talked about his specific behavior of impulsive buying. Changing your behavior takes getting very, very specific in acknowledging what's happening. That's specific attitudes, specific Behaviors and then coming up with a plan for change. Cognitive behavioral therapy is really effective at this type of therapy. And change also involves some softer skills like gratitude and appreciating how far you've come.

Let's take a look at the numbers, and then let's talk about some techniques.

How about that?

You can start with assets and then tell me the number next to it.

500,000.

All right, next up, investments. Go ahead, Matt.

$350,000. And that includes my 401k and my 401k.

Great. Okay. Both your 401ks. Fantastic. Next up, savings.

Savings. $20,000. And that includes probably $1,000 from me and $19,000 from Nicole.

All right, and debt. Debt.

$450,000. And that includes $92,000 in student loans from me. And the rest is the mortgage and miscellaneous credit card debt.

How much credit card debt?

We would have to look at the breakdown because, like, ballpark. 10.

No, from where?

I mean, last month we had 10. When we wrote this, we had 10.

Oh, no, there's no credit card debt. All the credit cards get paid monthly. So there might have been.

Nicole, Nicole, hold on.

Sorry.

I want you to see this. Okay. Watch this, Nicole.

Yeah.

Okay, Matt, when you mentioned credit card debt, what does credit card debt mean to you?

How much money you have to pay off on your credit card.

Okay, so if you guys spend $10,000 on your credit card one month, how much credit card debt do you have?

I feel like this is a trap, but I'm going to say $10,000.

Okay. And if you pay it off in full, does that change your answer?

Yeah.

How?

So it goes back to zero.

Okay, so if you have $10,000 and you pay it off every month, do you have credit card debt?

I guess not. No.

Okay. Nicole, what did you hear there?

That. What? That sort of like different understanding.

Yeah. It seems like you have a different understanding of money and financial systems than Matt does. Would that be fair to say for both of you? You agree? Yeah, Matt.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think that's fair. So look, let's just acknowledge that, and then let's build from the ground up.

You're absolutely right. And I think part of the challenge is that sometimes when we talk through this stuff and I try to explain it from that place, I get a lot of. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I know, I know, I know. And so then I don't want to over explain if he's telling me he understands.

Remember the questions I was asking? What are you going to do more of? What are you going to need to do less of? Can you use that tool reaction?