“I helped pay off his $30k+ credit card debt but he didn’t care”

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Let me read what you wrote in your application to me, Nicole. Gosh, can I read from this?

You can read from it.

You wrote, We recently had an argument that escalated our previous conversations. From quote, are we financially ready to be engaged? To quote, this man needs to pack his bags. How are we going to make big purchases together when his credit score shuts it down? I'm now angry, upset, frustrated that I didn't find out our huge financial differences four years ago. Am I overreacting or is it time to find a partner who matches me financially?

Oh, gosh, I'm sorry. I just. I was in an angry place and I hate just hearing those words. I don't mean that to Jordan. I was just an angry place.

Can I. Should I continue or not? It's. It's totally.

I. I don't. I don't even want Jordan to hear. I feel like that's not honest. I don't want Jordan to hear that.

Jordan, what do you think of all the things that you just heard from Nicole?

That's.

That's a lot to me. Secondary.

Nicole is 30 and Jordan is 34. I'd like to introduce you to this couple today. She's an orthodontist. He's a personal trainer, and for most of his life, he's carried credit card debt. That issue is leading Nicole to question their relationship. In this episode, you're going to hear about income disparities and class and ambition. Listen closely, because I think a lot of the issues affecting Nicole and Jordan also affect a lot of us. Now, if you'd like, you can watch this full episode on YouTube where you can see their body language and facial expressions, and those add a whole new dimension to these conversations. One last thing before we start. A lot of you have been listening for a while. I appreciate you listening. I appreciate you sharing this on Social media. Thank you. If you have not yet taken control of your money, then I want to encourage you to. It's one thing to listen for entertainment. It's another thing to listen to. Find some tidbits and lessons you can apply to your relationship. But I don't want this to just be entertainment for you. I want you to take control of your rich life. You can do that in a few ways. One, get my book. Get it from any bookstore or the library. It's called I Will Teach youh to Be Rich. In six weeks, your money will be automated. Next, you can get my journal. Design your rich life. Do it solo or with a partner. Third, you can join my money coaching program, iwt.com moneycoaching take control. I will be happy to coach you there. I do it every single month. And of course, you can watch my Netflix show, which is coming out.

Thanks for listening. Thanks for watching.

Let's get into it.

I was helping Jordan pay off the credit card debt I started in the summer of last year. And when I we were getting close to the end of paying it off, I walked into the kitchen and I was like, I think we're going to pay off. I think we're going to pay the last payment this month. And I was really excited. And I was like, we should, we should do something to celebrate. And then Jordan was cooking and he was, he was busy in the kitchen. And he was like, well, I just don't think it's as dire as you do. And I was like, what do you mean? It's not like, what do you mean by the credit card debt's not dire to you? And from what I remember, Jordan was telling me that I've always had credit card debt. It's always been something I've had. I'm used to having credit card debt. It doesn't seem like something that's extreme. And in my head I was thinking, well, there's no point in investing. There's no point in doing anything else if we have a high interest credit card debt. But I couldn't really communicate everything that I wanted to or really see where he was. And so we just walked away from that conversation.

You just walked out of the kitchen.

I knew where that conversation was going to go. I could see Jordan getting stressed and I knew it was going to go to I just don't make enough money. I feel like I am doing everything I can with my business. It's going to go into that way of him stressing about his business and how much income he's making. I was shocked. Before he had communicated about the credit card debt and were living in Colorado, he would say, like, I feel like I make progress towards paying it off, and then I get a setback and I'm back to where I am. And so the whole time we're in Colorado, I'm like, well, when I start making money, like, we're going to be a team. We're going to have a second income, and I'll be able to help you with that because Jordan supported me a lot when I was in Colorado and I had no income. So I thought that was my way of giving back and I was going to be able to support him for our future. So I. I just felt like, wow, we are not. We were not thinking about this the same at all. When I started contributing towards that, I didn't feel like he understood me at all.

How much was this debt that we're talking about here?

It was probably. It was around. What was it? 25,000?

Roughly 30.

31. About $31,000.

Okay, $31,000. And you both together paid it off in about six months, is that right?

Yeah, five, four or five months.

So she was coming in to celebrate. Like, first of all, do you both think that that's good, bad, impressive, mediocre? What do you both think about paying off 30k of credit card debt in about 5 months?

I was excited.

Okay. Jordan.

I mean, when. Yeah, when you look at it like that, it's. I mean, it's probably not a lot of people who could accomplish that.

Yeah. Look at it like what.

Like looking back, kind of just looking at it in simple terms. Like, you know, he paid off $30,000 in five, six months.

What would be the opposite of simple terms?

I guess the way I look at it through my. My lens. Tell me my viewpoint of, like, again, this is great, but it's like not fixing the root cause of. Of what. Of what stresses me out. For me, yeah, it was. It was great. But, like, this has been a situation that I've been in before where I have paid off my credit card debt and then business would be really slow and I would have to rack it up again just for basic expenses and stuff like that. So for me, it was very like, yeah, this is great, but, like, it's not fixing the root of my stress.

I guess you get nervous talking about money.

Nervous. Yeah, a little bit.

I notice your breath is catching even as you're recounting that story.

Yeah, it's. It's. I guess it's a. Like, I Said it's a tough conversation because it is something that is. Causes so much stress for me.

Like what. What kind of stress?

I guess, like, maybe fear, you know, not being able to help provide for us or our future family.

You want to reflect on that at all now that the other person is here in the room?

Yeah. I mean, I definitely have looked back at that conversation a few times and be like, that was kind of been a catalyst for me to, like, okay. Figure out, like, okay, I need to handle my stress better. But it's definitely something that, you know, not. Not a conversation that I was. I'm proud of by any. Any means.

Have you two talked about that conversation since then?

I don't think so.

You want to do it right now?

Sure.

All right. Why don't you two talk and I'll observe. Go ahead.

Nicole, I. I appreciate everything that you have done to help and support me, including helping me with my credit card debt, because I know that that is something that is important for our future. And while I still have some things to figure out and work on as far as, you know, growing my business to avoid having that issue in the future, I really appreciate that you have that. You helped me with that, and that's one of the things that I love about you.

Thank you. I was like, one of the first times Jordan's thanked me for that, so thank you.

It's kind of beautiful to watch. I almost wish it had happened earlier. It's. It's such a way of connecting. What did you feel, Jordan, as you were saying? What you said?

Gratitude. Appreciation.

Yeah. That's cool. And how about for you, Nicole?

I know that Jordan is grateful again. I know that deep down because Jordan have been together for four years. I know he's not great with apologies, but I know when he's sorry. I know how his body language speaks more with me than how he verbalizes things, but it is really nice just to hear in words sometimes that he's thankful.

All right, well, I love watching that. Let's talk a little bit more about the credit card debt. And let's talk a little bit more about what brought you here. You had this credit card debt, Jordan. What was the credit card debt incurred for?

Part of it is just business expenses.

Like what?

Like just, I guess, general operating expenses, like coaching, and then just basic living expenses. Groceries, gas.

How long did it take you to incur that 30k of credit card debt?

It was probably over a couple of. A couple of years? Two, three years.

Did you think at any point, like, this is a problem, or was it more like, I'll solve it when I start making more money?

I guess I didn't look at it as, like, a big problem. I looked at it, I guess, as more as, like, I was doing what I had to do to, you know, live and build a business. And there are times where, you know, I'd have a really good month or two, I'd pay off a lot of it, and then, you know, fall back into, slow down again. Um, and so it was something that I always felt like, eventually I'll be able to, like, figure it out and. And even. Even things out.

So many things to notice already. First, Jordan is literally shaking as he's talking. And if you're not watching this on YouTube, I would encourage you to. I have to step back here for a second and tell you how much I appreciate my guests coming on this show and talking about these topics. It's not easy. Would you come on a show in front of millions of people and share every bit of your finances, or would you talk about your relationship issues? Of all these people, I have to give it up for Jordan and Nicole for coming on here and for every single guest who has the courage to come on here and ask for help. And I am honored that they come here and put their trust in me now for Jordan. We can already see, we can even feel that money goes way deeper for him than numbers. And all of us are emotional about money, but his body is screaming it. I also noticed that his views on debt are really different than Nicole's. He shrugs off debt as he says, quote, I didn't look at it as a big problem, but Nicole sees it as a huge problem. And I can guarantee there's more to this difference than just debt alone.

When did you first realize that you might not see money the same way?

Probably towards the end of 2021, when she was getting ready to graduate and we were planning to move to California.

We.

She wanted to buy a house. I was very on the fence about it, but there was a lot of conversations. That was really the first time, I think, is when we started having, like, the contentious conversations around money. I felt it was going to be a lot more expensive and stressful than just continuing to rent for a year, especially since we were moving halfway across the country. I just felt like it was not a great time to be. To be doing that.

Okay, and what do you remember Nicole saying?

I. I basically, like, remember a lot of it was like, this is what she really wanted, and with the money that she was going to Be making that it was something she. We could afford to do. She wasn't going to, you know, ask me to contribute to the mortgage if I didn't feel like I could reasonably to start off with. So eventually I was like, okay, this probably makes sense for the both of us, given where we are, but it wasn't something I was completely comfortable with.

Can I go out on a limb here and make a wild guess? So this, this whole conversation about we can afford it did. My guess is that neither of you ever pulled out any specific numbers about a house and calculated actual income versus how much you could afford for total cost of ownership for a house. Wild guess. Am I right or wrong?

I didn't because I wasn't ready to buy a house.

What a shock. What a. A shot.

And.

And how about for the person who wanted to buy the house?

Nicole, I did do numbers. No, maybe not as specifically as what.

What numbers did you do?

But I was thinking how much money I'd be bringing in. And I was. I was calculating the property tax I'd be paying, how much I would be paying in the interest and my mortgage and in the area we wanted to live for. We. We were looking. We were looking to rent. We were both on the same page to rent in the beginning. We thought we'd rent for a year or two to figure. Wanted to be. And so we were looking at apartments, and I'm looking, and I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like to just have what we have. Right now, we're going to be paying almost $4,000 a month.

So keep going. I'm waiting for the final sentence here. Keep going.

And then I thought, we might as well buy the house. I know.

Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you.

So that is your analysis. Those are the numbers that you. You basically said, hey, it's really expensive to rent here, therefore we might as well buy.

I know, I know. It fell into the trap. Yes.

Okay, hold on. I'm not letting you off the hook yet. Okay, we're going to get to your numbers, too. I see them here. When you said, I looked at the taxes and the mortgage. That's good. That's more than 90% of people do. How did you decide if you could afford it or not?

I was thinking how much income that I would be having, how much money I would be taking home.

Red flag number one is when you. You answer my question by saying, I was thinking, that's like, okay, all right, fine. So you were thinking, I'm going to be making a lot of money and the mortgage is less money, so therefore I can afford it. Is that the analysis you did?

Not quite. It's like that basic. I. I knew. I know I have a lot of student debt too. So I was accounting for my student debt payment, and I'm thinking I'm still going to have money left over way more than I have right now.

So. Did you do any ratios at all? Was there a ratio like a percentage in that analysis?

To be straightforward, I did not have a percentage.

Thank you.

There was not a percentage.

Admitting it. Okay. All right.

Why is my greatest joy in life catching someone in the act of saying they bought a house by running the numbers, but then discovering they actually didn't like what is wrong with me? You know, some people like to do thousand piece puzzles. Some people go and build houses. I sit here on a podcast and relish every second of finding someone in a money lie and then slow walking them to the very end of the plank where somebody like Nicole finally admits, no, I actually did not have a percentage. And the worst part of this whole thing is I have a gigantic smile on my face right now. I love my life. I actually love what just happened. And this is why I think there's.

Something wrong with me.

Anyway, let's all take a moment of silence for yet another person who listens to this podcast and subscribes to my free newsletter, and that does exactly the opposite of what I say.

What can you do?

People are people, and they want to buy what they want to buy. Let's take a look at their numbers. Remember, she makes a lot of money. He's mentioned not earning a lot, and she helped him pay off his credit card debt.

Let's look at your income. I find this to be very interesting. Jordan, can you give me your gross monthly income?

Yes. On average, just under $6,000.

5,800.

Yeah.

A month. Okay, and.

Hold on.

All right, so you make about $70,000 a year. And Nicole, how about you?

Monthly gross is 33,000.

33,000. So collectively you make $465,000.

Yeah.

That sound like a little or a lot.

More than I ever thought I'd ever make.

Yeah, Jordan, it's definitely, definitely a lot.

You ever find it interesting that there's so much stress around money and you're making almost half a million dollars in your early 30s?

I guess when you put it like that. Yeah.

I'm just reading the numbers off. I mean, maybe if you guys make a million dollars, then all the problems will vanish. What do you think? No, a lot of silence.

On this call, probably not. Hmm.

That's so shocking. All right, so I think that's a lot of money. That's why I'm not super concerned about the debt, nor are you. Nicole, it sounds like you're pretty savvy financially. Savvy person goes, yeah, I have a lot of debt. Yeah, I know that. And I make a lot of money. That's how I make money, because I incurred that debt. How much are you making per month? If you. If you subtract your business expenses out.

Gross, it would be around 3,500.

Okay, so you're making 3,500, she's making 33,000. What do you all think about that?

I would like for mine to be a lot closer to her.

Okay, how are you going to do that?

That's what I've been trying to figure out, I guess, is what. What has contributed to a lot of the stress.

I totally get it. I'm just asking for your plan. Do you have a plan as to how you're going to increase 3300A.

Yeah, I mean, I'm putting in more work as far as producing more content, trying to generate more leads, talk to more people. In my business, you know, that would be an extra one to two clients a month.

Okay, great. What's the deadline?

I guess I would. Being realistic, say, The end of 2024. I would be realistic. I'm gonna be. If I'm gonna be optimistic, I'd say.

This year, I don't know. Just give me a deadline. So you don't have a deadline, it sounds like.

Is that fair? That's. No, that's fair.

Do you think that this is a major source of the contention in this relationship?

I think so. I think it's not knowing when we can really start planning for kids in the Future.

Nicole makes 33,000amonth, and he makes 3,500amonth. So she makes about 10 times what he makes. There's a previous episode, number 65 and number 66, where Connie made $200,000 a month and Wes made $2,000 a month. She made 100x what he was making in those episodes. I talked about class differences and assortative mating and all kinds of subtle differences that emerge in couples like this. We already see that here. Nicole is saying she's alarmed that Jordan didn't really consider his debt a problem. That's a different way of looking at money that goes beyond jor. She's also saying that indecision is a problem for her. Another typical class difference in Planning, you know, socioeconomic systems in class are things we rarely talk about. And when I got my master's degree in sociology from Stanford, I never thought I would be talking with couples in this format. So if you are curious to learn about some of the class dynamics that I refer to, a great place to start is this book called the Power of the Past by Jesse Stripe.

The way you make decisions is what I'm trying to understand right now. The fact is, you were going from basically making not that much money as a student, right. Nicole, how much did you make?

Negative $100,000 a year.

Okay, so you took out loans, and during that time, Jordan, were you basically the financial provider?

For the most part, she would pay, like, rent and a few things out of her loans, but for the most part, yes.

Got it.

Okay.

So you took some of your loans, you used them for living expenses, Nicole. Jordan, you made up, let's say, over 50% of household expenses. Would that be fair to say?

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. And so you go, hey, let's. Let's buy a place. Because we're. Even if it costs more, we're still going to have a ton of money relative to what we used to have. Right.

And we. We wanted to be settled. We want.

What does that mean?

Jordan and I, cumulatively, we've moved like seven times in the past four years we've been together.

Oh, that's a lot. Why?

We were living separately. So he helped me move. I helped him move. We moved into a place together. That place became too small, and there was a shooting in the parking lot, so we moved to another place together, and then we moved to California together. So we had a lot of moves.

That's a lot of moves. I feel you on that. And so just to clarify, in your mind, being settled means what?

It means that we're not moving. It means that my family is here in California. We bought a house here. We are staying here. There's no potential for us to pick up and move to anywhere else. We are here in California.

Once we were here and had the house, and I feel like at that point, I was at peace with it.

Nicole, was your experience basically the same? You felt good? You feel good now with the house?

Yes.

Great. Okay, good, Good. All right. So you're in the house. This is the house that I'm currently seeing you in right now, right?

Yes.

Okay, great. So you're in the house. And what started happening from when you moved in until now as it relates to money?

I think at one point I introduced her to your book and your podcast.

My man, how that. First of all, what'd you say? You know, I wish I could be in all these rooms listening. But what did you say to her?

I don't know if she saw it this way or not, but that was like one of my first attempts to be like, hey, I know this is important to you. Now here's maybe some way we can get into it more together.

Wow. Wow. And how did you receive that when he brought up my book, Nicole?

Well, the book was like, long before the podcast. That was when we were moving and we were sorting through things to get rid of. And the book was. Your book was one of the things that got to say that wasn't the key.

Yes. All right, I made it. Okay. And so what was that like when you heard him say, we're giving away all these Robert Kiyosaki scam books and we're going to keep. I will teach you to be rich. What did that feel like to you when you heard him talk about a money book?

That was. We weren't even really in the money conversations. It was the podcast. It was the podcast that started the convos we had. We were in the car to on our way for a road trip, and Jordan just put the podcast on. And I, I know what that meant. Like, I, I knew that that was what Jordan was trying to communicate was this is my attempt to speak about finances because we were in a little bit of a tip at the start of that road trip those couple days before. We had had a conversation about money. And so he turned that on and we just listened to was a four hour ride and we listened to like four of the podcasts.

That's awesome. I love hearing that. And when, when he made that gesture of turning on the podcast, what did you feel? How did you receive that?

I love that. The first one we listened to was the one about the couple who the woman made, like, she made like, I don't know, 10 times more income than the.

Yeah, 100 times more.

100 times more. It was even more. It was a crazy amount. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, wait, they're talking about gender roles. They're talking about, like, all these things that we like, we. We feel. And it was, it was really nice to. To learn more about that too. We both like to learn about human psychology. That was very interesting to, to listen to.

Connie and Wes, thank you for coming on this show on episode 66 and 67 to share your story and to every guest for coming on here and sharing your Story. There are so many people who see themselves in you, and it makes me so happy to hear that Jordan was actually the one to bring up money with Nicole. That means a lot to me, and I think it means even more to Nicole. Sometimes one partner just wants the other to be proactive with money and to show some interest, and this is a great example of doing exactly that.

So you start listening to the podcast in the book, and what happens? Is it all, you know, you live happily ever after or what?

Go ahead, Jordan.

I was going to say, well, no, because we're. We're having this conversation, but I would say.

The.

I don't think that the contentious conversations didn't stop, but I feel like we have had more conversations, more activities, like we're going through the journal together.

Right.

So there is more. More activity in this area, I guess.

Okay. And out of curiosity, what is your rich life?

Um, if I had to know, keeping it short, if I had to sum my rich life up in one sentence, it would be to not have to stress, not have to make decisions based solely on money.

Okay. Okay, cool. Nicole, what about you?

I want to have more freedom with my time, and when we have kids, I want to be 50% nurture to my children and 50% provider.

Great. Crisp. Sounds like you've both thought about it. Okay. All right, that sounds good. What do you wish that your partner understood about the way that you see money? I'd like to start with Nicole first.

I wish that.

Well, can you tell him?

I wish you knew how frugal I was with money in the way that when. When I see you spend money differently than me, I don't tell you, but it's. Sometimes it's like in my gut, I'm like, oh, my gosh, I wouldn't spend money like that. What if we did this instead? And I. I just don't know how to communicate that to him without feeling like I'm. I'm treating him like a kid or being overbearing or saying that I'm restricting him on. On things. I keep that hidden from you because I don't want to, like, really restrict how you spend. And maybe you feel that off of me anyways, but I grew up very frugal, and especially as a student for 11 years, I'm very frugal. So it's, like, hard for me to. To spend money on. On certain things that I just haven't spent money on before.

Okay. All right. Thank you. And, Jordan, what do you wish that Nicole understood about the way that you see Money. Tell her.

I. I wish that you understood that. Sorry.

It's okay. Take your time.

I wish that you understood that I want to see that. It's my goal to see me money as something that we can celebrate and enjoy, but it's hard for me to get to that point because of how much it stresses me out.

Can I ask a question? So, Nicole, you said, I wish you understood how frugal I really am. And Jordan, you said, I wish you understood that I want to get better with money, but I'm stressed out by it. Now. I'd like you to zoom out for a second. Do you think if your partner truly understood that thing about you, that it would change anything? Nicole, say it out loud. You're shaking.

No, because he. He already knows that. He knows that.

And do you know that he's stressed out by money?

Oh, yes.

So what are we dancing around here for? It's like I. It would be like me going to my wife and saying, I deeply wish that you understood that my hair is black. It's like we all know. Everybody knows everything you both said. So here you are. In a sentence, how would you describe the primary problem that you believe you're facing?

I'm really worried for the future when we have children, that I'm not going to be able to take time off, that I'm going to be still working the amount that I'm working when I really only want to be working two to three days a week.