“I make 2x more than him. He feels ashamed”

At this point, he has to work forever. I'm planning on retiring. Am I going to spend all of that time alone?

What do you think the solution is?

That he makes more money.

Oh my God. So if she makes like double that I make, for me, it's not comfortable. That's how I feel.

Is it because she makes more and she's a woman?

Yeah.

We've been having this conversation for years.

Ah, I feel shame.

He's just been in survival mode. And it definitely would feel more comfortable for me too if he was able to contribute more.

I work so hard. I deserve to have like a better life. I deserve to go to a restaurant and look at the menu to the left side, not the right side.

What if you never make as much as Maria?

Okay, she makes more money, but I was supposed to be the one taking the lead.

You would like him to make more, but you also mentioned that you want him to be able to not work all the time and take time off.

Yeah, yeah.

Can you be a leader if she makes more money than you? What would you do if you had a solid retirement plan but your partner did not? How would you handle it? Today I'm speaking with Maria and Andre. Maria is 53 years old, Andre is 50, and Maria is happy with her retirement, but Andre only recently opened up his retirement account for reasons that might surprise you. Let me take a look at their application. Maria writes, Andre is a recent immigrant and has no savings or assets. I'm concerned about his ability to contribute to our retirement. "As a teacher who's been saving, I have a good job and a solid retirement plan, but it's not really enough for two. The question I have is, what would you do in this situation if you were only 8 years away from your retirement?" That's what I'm here to find out today. Let's get started and meet Maria and Andre.

We've been together for over 5 years now, and I was hoping things would be more cohesive by now.

Okay.

Andre, did you know that she was applying?

Yeah.

Okay. And what was your take on it? Were you supportive or not?

The first time I wasn't supportive about that. So I was thinking like, so why do I want to open my financial life to a podcast, for example? Yeah. I was a little bit resistant about that. I'm working with a therapist. We talk about that all the time and she helps me a lot to see the things differently. And then I said, so why not? Now I can build a career here in the United States, and I want to be more active in our lives, you know? It's like making a good amount of money and managing this money the way that's going to be a benefit for both of us.

Okay.

Where did you move here from?

From Brazil. Okay.

And how long ago was that?

It was 12 years ago.

12 years.

All right.

Do you have your green card or what's the ability to work right now?

Yeah, now I have my green card. Okay.

How long ago did you get that?

September 2025.

Recent.

Recent.

Okay.

All right.

Any children?

Yeah, we both have children. Adult children.

Okay.

Mine are 23 and 26.

I have an 18-year-old daughter. She lives in Brazil with her mom.

Got it. What do each of you do for a living?

I work as an HVAC guy. But when it requires a license, I have my boss with me to help me out. So I'm working on my license now.

I've been a teacher for over 20 years. I work with adults. I have students from 18 years old to 60 years old. And it's very fulfilling work for me. I love it. Great. Yeah.

Cool.

My mom was a teacher as well, and my mother-in-law as well. So teaching runs in our family. That's awesome.

Okay.

André, I'm curious about, your work experience and the income, were you able to work before you received your green card?

Yes, I was working as a subcontractor and I had a company. They used to pay me by, I don't know the words, like commission.

Okay. How does the income you made then compare to the income that you make now?

So basically, I think that is about the same because before I was like as a subcontractor, but it was like all the expenses that I had, it was on me. Car, Uh, gas, helper, uh, insurances and everything. So it's about the same thing. I feel shame sometimes because I'm putting all my effort on it to make more money, to manage the money, and to get a nice result. But I know that I'm far away from that.

I see.

And I don't feel comfortable about that.

And have you saved for retirement?

Not that much.

Okay, how much are we talking about now?

We have like $16,000.

Okay, that's your retirement?

Yeah, this is my retirement.

Got it. So what is the crux of the question here today? Maria, you applied. What are you hoping to get out of today's conversation?

I feel concerned for Andre's situation. He hasn't really been in a place where he felt like he could could make a plan for retirement. Like, he's just been in survival mode.

And now, are you in survival mode still?

I think so. Okay.

We're together and we recently combined finances, but I only recently started thinking about retirement in the last few years, and I feel like I have a good plan that covers like one person's life. With him in the picture, it just makes it a lot tighter to try to do to have like a future together on basically one income?

I still working on it. So it's a very beginning of my career. I don't get paid as much as I would like to have to get paid, but it's enough to pay for my bills and send some money for retirement. But that's it. Okay.

Can we take a look at the numbers? Yeah. Okay. What was it like coming up with this conscious spending plan together?

It was fun. Yeah, I like it. And I'll let you speak more about it.

Yeah, for me, it was a totally challenging thing. My main concern was like, make money, but not manage the money. I was like, okay, I need to— my bills are about $4,000. I need to make more than $1,000.

This is very common. It's like common across almost every culture that I speak to. Every country, every culture, the guy is single-minded. I need to just make more money. It's classic. Okay, so that was your mindset. Yeah. And then looking at these numbers, what did you notice?

I noticed that in certain way of making more money makes sense. But if I manage the money, I can get a better life. Nice.

Yeah.

Honestly, that's a huge insight. Okay, let's take a look at the numbers. Maria, can you read off the word in bold and the number next to each of these items, please?

Assets, $44,000. Investments, $454,000. Savings, $32,500. Debt, $33,600. Total net worth, $496,900.

What do you think about those numbers?

Need a few thousand more to hit that half million.

You might get it by the time we leave this room.

It's true. It's true. When I was looking at this just as my plan, I felt really good about it because I also have a pension that will cover at least half of my salary.

Let's talk about you and what you feel about these numbers.

Yeah, how do I feel about them? I feel really proud and grateful and happy.

Cool. André, how do you feel about these numbers?

I don't feel comfortable about that because I know that most of the money that is there It comes from her. I don't feel that I'm contributing enough for that. I could be— I could do it better.

Let's look at the income. Andre, can you read off your combined gross monthly income?

$15,600.

$15,600 a month? A month. So around $187,000 now per year. And then it looks like it's going to go up $201,000 soon.

Mine's going up. Maybe we haven't put— we don't know how much his would go up yet, so we haven't added that yet.

Oh, okay. So in, in other words, you're going to jump up by $14,000 a year in a few months, and probably more considering Andre is going to get his license. Yes.

All right, great.

What do you think about that number?

Wow, I think that is amazing. But at the same time, I feel that I should be like— the percentage that I was contributing with that should be much better.

She makes $10,500 and you make about half of that, $5,000.

This is uncomfortable for me.

Uh-huh.

Because you're making less?

Yeah.

Why?

I feel like that I'm starting my career again, and as a man, I don't feel comfortable with that, so Because I know that she doesn't put me in charge of this. She's very, very gentle and understanding with me. But my feelings, I like, oh my God. So she makes like double that I make, you know? It's like, for me, it's not comfortable. That's how I feel.

Is it because she makes more and she's a woman? Yeah. Okay, got it. In Brazil, do men typically make more than women?

Make more money.

Okay. And are they in charge of the finances?

Yes.

All right, let's take a look at the rest of the numbers. Your fixed costs are at 68%.

It was lower before we combined. Mine was lower before we combined.

Okay.

But we do live in a high cost of living area.

All right, let's look at the rest. Investments at 12%. Is that accurate?

A lot of my savings comes out pre-tax.

Uh-huh.

So the savings rate is actually much higher for me.

Oh, because of the—

Yeah, it's more like 25%. Yeah.

What?

I've been saving aggressively the last few years because I just started.

Oh, I see. And is that reflected here when it says 23%?

Oh, not the savings, the investing. The investing's much higher.

It's not showing up here because it's pre-tax.

Yeah.

Okay, fine. And then savings, it says that of your income, you are saving 23%. Uh-huh. Is that accurate?

It was until a few months ago, but it's probably more like it. Took that down to $1,200 a month. Yeah.

But it says $1,700 right now.

Yeah.

You took it down?

So yeah, because I'm not— haven't been saving for the wedding for the kids, and I haven't been saving for the car maintenance. So that's $500 less.

What do you do with the money now?

We've been having some extra expenses lately.

Like?

Yeah, like taxes. I never had big taxes before, but I got one of those this year.

Why? Why did you not have the high tax bill and now you do?

I'm making a lot more than I was until recently, and last year I sold a house, so, um, that offset my income a lot.

Maria, you mentioned that you were able to recently invest a lot more money. How'd you do that?

Oh, well, I made a lot of big changes in my career. Um, I went back to school. I was able to— my, um, my kids fledged, so that was the big life change, is now I could focus on my career. It was never a priority before that. So I put myself through grad school twice, and then I asked for a promotion, and they were like, tell us what you want. It was really cool because that was my first experience of like, wow, I get to decide what I want to make here. This is awesome. And then I did that again, um, when I switched school districts. And then this new raise that's coming up is also a promotion. I've been kind of like doing various proposals throughout the year. And then I, and I said, there's all these things that I want to do. Can I, can I do them and get paid for it? And she was like, definitely.

Whoa.

And it was a 10% promotion, so it was awesome.

You know what, well done. I love that you've been doing it consistently over and over, and I love that you have done this most recently as a teacher, because one of the common critiques I get when I talk about increasing your income is, hey, I, I'm a teacher or I work for the government. This won't work for me. And while there are pay bands and there's certain things that private industry doesn't have, there are ways to get creative, whether it's doing what you have done or starting a side business. I think it's amazing what you've accomplished. Thank you. Well done.

Yeah.

André, what do you think of these numbers? Are you familiar with the conscious spending plan?

Yeah, we go over it like once a month at least.

Really?

Yeah.

Great.

Yeah. You sit down and you sit on a computer and you go over and she tried to— she goes like, she's the manager. She goes explaining to me what's going on. Okay. And I tried my best to understand what's going on and try to do my best to follow it.

Okay.

And what would be an example where you try to follow the conscious spending plan on a day-to-day basis?

Not spending money on things that I wasn't supposed to expand. Because, for example, before, I'm a big fan of going to bakeries, okay, for example, and go—

what do you get?

I like chocolate things and things like that, so nice treats.

All right.

And I was doing that every week, every weekend, for example. And when I, when I go there, I don't care about money. I don't ask for how much you're gonna cost. Just give it to me. And I'm not doing it anymore. We do sometimes when we think that makes sense, but not like before. Like another thing, like spending money outside of home. For example, I used to go every day to have like a lunch somewhere else or going to gas station and get like snacks, things like that, some pizza and things like that.

That's actually a great use of the conscious spending plan.

It—

I love what you said. It's like I used to just go to these places and not think about money at all.

Mm-hmm.

And now we have the conscious spending plan. Sure, I can still go once in a while, but in general, I'm not going every day mindlessly, unconsciously. That is exactly the point of the conscious spending plan. So that's a great job. You've heard me talk about how one of my money dials is convenience, but one of my more recent money dials is health. Which means I love spending money on things that make me healthier. This is why I pay, for example, for a personal trainer. It's why that I've worked with experts to learn how macros work for the foods that I eat. And what's great about the concept of money dials is you decide. And if health is one of your money dials, then I recommend checking out Superpower. Superpower is a membership program that gives you real data and insights about your health. The process starts when they send a licensed professional to your home or you can visit a nearby lab. And with one lab test, you get access to over 100 biomarkers, things like cholesterol, iron, creatinine, sodium, cortisol, testosterone, to unlock a better understanding of your body. Basically, to get a baseline. Their app shares detailed information on your heart, liver, thyroid, hormones, metabolism, vitamin and mineral levels, all tracked and assessed over your lifetime, not just a single snapshot. Make this the year you stop guessing about your health with Superpower. For a limited time, our listeners get $20 off to unlock their new health intelligence. Head over to superpower.com. Make sure you use code Ramit for $20 off your membership. That's code Ramit. After you sign up, they'll ask you how you heard about Superpower. Do me a favor, and if you could tell them Money for Couples sent you to support this show. Two misconceptions about Ramit Sethi. Number one, he doesn't like Italian food. That's not true. I like pizza. Number 2, that I'm categorically against all financial advisors. Also untrue. I'm simply against paying a percentage of your portfolio to an advisor. I would rather you pay a simple flat fee or an hourly rate. That is where our friends at Facet come in. Facet charges a flat membership fee for financial planning, never a percentage of your assets. And you get access to a team of CFP professionals— always a CFP, always a fiduciary— who help you create a personalized financial plan that meets you where you are. They can help with big things like investments, moving across the country, saving for kids' college, traveling in retirement, estate planning, all of it. Your financial plan should match up with your rich life vision, and Facet can help make that possible without the exorbitant fees. As of the date of this recording, Fasset is waiving the enrollment fee for new annual members. And for my audience, Fasset is offering $300 into your brokerage account if you invest and maintain $5,000 within your first 90 days. Head to fasset.com/RamitSethi to learn more about which membership option is best for you. Fasset is an SEC-registered investment advisor. I'm not a member of Fasset and have an incentive to endorse Fasset as I have an ongoing fee-based contract for cash compensation based on this endorsement. All opinions are my own and not a guarantee of a similar outcome. You said it, I listened. A lot of you have been asking for me to do more around single people and money. It's time to do it. I am casting a new reality series about love and money. So if you are single and you live in LA, I want to talk to you. Go to iwt.com/datingshow.. And if you got friends who are single in LA, send them the link, iwt.com/datingshow. Let's talk about the disparity in income. So right now, Maria, you earn $126,000 a year, and Andre, you make $61K per year. How do you feel about that, Maria?

I know that it makes him feel uncomfortable, and it definitely would feel more comfortable for me too if he was able to contribute more. But I'm happy to do it if he's building his career and investing in himself. That hasn't happened as quickly as I would've liked. Like we've been having this conversation for years.

Ah, what was the conversation that you had?

Basically like, you need a plan so that you're not just spinning in survival mode. And like he said, he's still there. So I need some kind of reassurance, like, this is actually gonna happen and it's not gonna be like this forever.

When you say he needs a plan, what does that plan look like to you?

The purpose of it, I'll start with that, is that he'd be in a position where he wasn't working all the time and stressed out and that he'd have more time to relax and enjoy life with me. Like as it is now, I do a lot of things for leisure that he doesn't, not that he can't do. Like, he's working on Saturdays, he can't take time off, he doesn't have paid time off, things like that. So, like, we just took our first vacation together last— or in February.

All right.

In 5 years. And it was the first time he had had a week off.

What did that feel like?

In 12 years. Like, he doesn't do vacations.

Wait, are Brazilians, uh, connoisseurs of leisure? When I talk to Italians They don't, they love leisure. They're the world's foremost experts at leisure.

Yeah.

What is it like for people in Brazil?

Yeah, we love leisure.

Okay, that's what I thought.

The situation before was my status. I'm working in my career. Yeah. I can take like days off, like, because I don't have like a plan. I work for a company that they gave, basically they gave me a schedule. Yeah. So they are okay when I ask for days off, but at the same time, when I know that, so I need to stop for a week, 3 days, 4 days, I know that that thing going to impact my income.

That sounds pretty reasonable. You're now in the building phase of your career, so if you take time off, that's going to affect your income. Makes sense. And Maria, I hear that you have built a career, you're making more now than you have ever made, and you want to take some time together.

Yeah. So this is the day-to-day, but then the other side of that is at this point he has to work forever, you know, and I'm planning on retiring in like 8 years. And so am I going to spend all of that time alone or with friends, or can I— I want to enjoy some of it with him too.

What do you think the solution is?

That he makes more money and he has a plan and that he can save more, invest more. And then, and then he would know like, oh, I, if I work this long and save this much, then I can retire at this date. And we've kind of run some numbers where if he, he could work till like 70, if he's making more and being strategic about it, it's still like 9 years longer than— or actually more because he's a little bit younger than I am. So that would be like almost 12 years later.

So if he retired at 70, how old would you be then?

73.

How do you feel about that?

Kind of sad. Yeah, yeah, I'd like to spend more of that time together.

What would the ideal be for you? What age would he retire at in your ideal world?

Maybe like 65.

65.

Okay.

Do people in Brazil save for retirement?

Not really.

Okay.

So not that much. So that is like a retirement in Brazil is like a buy. You can choose by this, the amount that you're making, or you just can wait for the maximum age. They're going to pay you the minimum.

What's the age that most people retire there?

It's about 65 years old in Brazil.

And what does it mean to you that you might have to work past 65?

Some way for me is like scary because I don't know how I'm gonna feel after that age, but at the same time I kind of enjoy working. Okay. So I feel that I'm gonna be the kind of guy that I'm not gonna stop working even if I don't— I have money enough to not do anything. Okay. No, I would like to keep active and doing things.

And you are planning to retire at 61?

61, full-time. Yeah, I could— I'll probably teach part-time after that.

Okay, so I'm hearing a couple of things I'm curious about. You mentioned that you would like him to make more, have a plan, but you also mentioned that you want him to be able to not work all the time and take time off. Yeah, yeah. Those two seem connected. If he has to make more, he probably has to work more. What do you think about that?

He can't work any more than he is. He already works a lot. Yeah, he needs to be more focused and strategic about it. What does that mean? Well, like having a license where he gets paid more.

He's doing that, right?

Yeah, he just started. Yeah, he's been much more proactive recently, but it's very recent.

So beneath the surface, if I'm reading it right, yeah, are you a little frustrated that it's taken so long for him to start being more aggressive?

Yes. Okay.

Yeah, that's what I'm doing now is like to increase my—

your skills.

My skills. Because for example, when I start working with this company, for example, I was just doing appliances. Yeah. And the amount of money that you get on it is not that much. Yeah. But when you're talking about HVAC, it's much more. Yeah. And I was pushing my boss all the time. I was like talking to him, hey, I come to this company since day one. I talk to you that I came here, I don't mind working with appliances, but my goal is HVAC.

Okay.

And then finally he gave me opportunity. So I'm studying every day. And when I go over it, I go like 3 hours over the paperwork to learn. And because it's like a test that takes like 100 questions and requires a lot of understanding of that thing. So as soon as I get that license, I can apply for different jobs that pays me more. So for now, I need to build it. Okay.

Let's go back to the numbers. I have a few more questions on your numbers. Fixed costs are at 68%. And if we take out the miscellaneous, they are at 59%. Would you say that it's fair to include 15%?

Yeah, for sure. Like car registration.

Yes.

Perfected things.

Okay, good. So let's say it's accurate. I found 15% is remarkably accurate in what most people forget to include. So at 68%, what do you think about that number, Maria?

Um, it's too high.

Too high.

It's been, it's been tight since we combined, um, resources. It's felt tight for me, and, and it's— but it's also been good because he's been able to start saving for retirement. So that was the trade-off there, and it didn't feel good to have our separate finances separate. And I had like all this extra income, and he was like just barely getting by month to month.

Yeah, as an example, if we split out your fixed costs, they're 59%, which is right in that zone of 50 to 60%, and Andre, your fixed costs are 85%.

And actually, before we combined mine, we're like 48%.

Really? Yeah.

It's because I'm covering a lot more of the expenses than he is.

What, you're covering like gas?

And, well, like the rent.

Oh, you're covering more? Is that proportional? Yeah. Okay, well, that's how it should be. Yeah, you make more, you should probably cover more.

Yeah, but I'm covering like insurance, car insurance, health insurance, all the savings, trips to Brazil, pretty much everything that's not his essential stuff.

And you combine your money, right? Okay, so then like, I'm curious about the covering this 50/50, etc.

Why do you— um, well, we just recently started doing that, and we haven't like worked out all the account logistics yet. But also, I think that because of the way that he manages his money, is seeing how much he has left in his account, yeah, that it would be taking away a sense of autonomy. And does that seem fair? Like, yeah, yeah, it would be hard for him to know how much to spend if he didn't have like his situation in his account.

Y'all ever read a book called Money for Couples? We shoot.

I'm always like placing it before him.

He hasn't picked it up on his own because it's interesting to me that you, you're married You have combined your finances, which I think is great, but you're still doing this 50/50, but also kind of proportional. Like, it just seems like a lot of work and you've already gone 70% of the way by combining your finances. But right now you're in this very confusing liminal space. Why not just go all the way? When you have been managing your own money in your way for a long time, when you get married, that changes. You can't just do it your own way. You have to talk to each other. You have to compromise. She's been managing money her own way for a while. And now to bring in a partner and to have to talk about it, that's one thing. But it's yet another when you are the higher earner, because after all, you make more money. So shouldn't you be the one who makes the call? And actually the answer is no, because when you are married, It doesn't only matter that you make more money. You're now partners. You have to talk, you have to compromise. And that is a challenge here. It can be difficult to combine incomes, especially the longer you have done it on your own. But it's also really important because if you continue operating as single people when you are a married unit, you're not really going to be a team. If you and your partner are struggling to truly get on the same page so that you're cooperating over your money, this is a perfect time to join my money coaching program. We do live events every month, and even if you don't see money the same way, come to our program. I will help you build a plan that works for both of you. Join at iwt.com/moneycoaching.

Part of the issue is that he hasn't separated his business expenses from his personal expenses in a clean way. Oh, and that's been really, really messy.

That's messy.

Really messy.

Why don't we just, you can fix that in like one day. You got a business credit card?

Yeah, I just use for my business expenses. I just use my credit card.

That's awesome. That's ideal. And then what's, where is it getting co-mingled with your personal?

Well, because I need to pay for that credit card, you know? Sometimes I feel that it's not being fair from the company that I'm working for. For example, when I, buy a part or something like that, they should refund me 100%. And they're not doing that.

They're not refunding you 100%?

No. So they're not refunding 100%. And when I get my paycheck, for example, let's say I spend $100, they put like in my paycheck as like a commission.

Yeah.

And I pay taxes over it. I see. I know that is wrong. That is wrong. They should pay 100% and no taxing on it. So for example, the gas is from my pocket too. They gave me like a little bit money to cover for my gas, but it's not enough.

This is like one of the many ways that companies screw over people who don't have a lot of power in the labor force.

And I tried to approach a company, they ghost me. Really? And at this point, I—

Should we put this company on blast right now? No, no, no, I don't want you to lose your job. Fuck this company.

When I talked to her and I said, I'm not going to go more aggressive with that because probably going to fire me. Yeah. And I'm going to use this company as a step for my next job.

Good.

So I'm working on my license and I'm sure that I'm going to get it as soon as I can.

Let's go back to the numbers. Current savings that you have would last about 4 months.

Okay.

Not great, but not horrible. Investment at 12%, but it's actually higher. Because it's pre-tax. Let's talk about retirement. So Maria, have you calculated how much you will have at retirement?

Yeah, between $10,000 and $12,000 a month gross.

That's a lot.

Yeah, for one person. For— and it would cover two of us too. And that's part of the reason why the emergency savings, like the same thought, is not that high. Because like I have tenure and we have a very well-funded program, like the possibility of me losing my job is really, really slim.

Okay, you currently make $10,500 a month gross, so you could make more in retirement than you make now.

Yeah.

So grand total, we're talking about retirement roughly $100,000 to $115,000, maybe a little bit more, it sounds like. Is that accurate from what you know?

Yeah. So maybe similar to what I'm making now. Yeah.

Okay.

Is that enough? Yeah. What do you think about that? Like, you have kind of guaranteed to make six figures in your retirement.

Like I said, I feel really grateful and yeah, that's the biggest word because I really didn't plan until a few years ago. Honestly, I was even on food stamps a few years ago because I was reeling from a cancer diagnosis and things like that. And so I had to make a big shift of like, oh, I get to have a future for one thing.

Mm-hmm.

The time when I don't want to be working anymore is closer than it used to be. That's why I said I started investing really aggressively and focusing on that.

What age were you when you started aggressively investing?

49.

49?

Yeah.

What do you think about the fact that André has just recently started his career path and is, in my opinion, aggressively moving up the value chain?

Well, we've had this conversation before because we can make fun of the age difference, like 2.5, 3 years. Well, when I was your age, I didn't have a plan either.

But you mentioned your frustration with André that he has not changed, developed his plan fast enough. Kind of similar, right?

Yeah.

What do you think of that?

I feel like I have been really patient. Like, we've been having these conversations since I was 49, and he really has only started taking it seriously more recently.

More recently means what?

Like, the last couple of months.

Okay.

It's not that he didn't think it was important, and probably I would have felt the same way at 45. It's just that there's more pressing issues. And because he's in that survival mode, he hasn't been able to make a plan.

Okay.

It just has felt like it was a focus issue because there's no reason he couldn't have gotten his license before. Like, he didn't need a green card for that. I think he could have been ready. And those were conversations that we had.

I was in a fragile situation before. Uh, I didn't have the many choices to have a different job. Uh, the company that I was working before, that was the only thing that I found. That accept me working with them as a subcontractor. At the same time, they knew that situation. They knew that I didn't have choice, and they took a lot of advantage of it. So I couldn't make a plan. I didn't have the chance to make a plan. So now I have, uh, I was like not feeling like up to making a plan because I didn't have the basic to make a plan. So how I'm gonna make a plan? I don't know what's gonna happen tomorrow.

You know how hard it is to move to the US and to become a citizen? I have known many people from when I was a kid who waited for 10 to 15+ years just to get a visa to come to the US. And once they're here, it's not easy either. There are all kinds of barriers put up. As you can see, there are companies who take advantage of people who don't have a lot of negotiating power, and it's expensive. We have to factor all of these things in when we hear Andre's story. Exciting news! One of our longest running sponsors, Element, has just launched their new Lemonade Iced Tea, and it's built on the same formula as Element's core drink mix, but now with a full spectrum black tea extract for a natural source of caffeine. It makes a great blend because you still get that same meaningful dose of electrolytes, but now with a source of caffeine that won't cause you to crash later. Element is a tasty electrolyte drink mix and sparkling electrolyte drink made specifically to replace essential electrolytes lost throughout the day. It's used by professional sports teams, Navy SEALs, Olympic athletes, and my wife loves it. Now Element has launched their Lemonade Iced Tea made with full spectrum black tea extract, not isolated caffeine added in later. It's built on the same formula as Element's core drink mix with a meaningful dose of electrolytes, no sugar, no artificial colors, No other weird ingredients. Get a free 8-count LMNT sample pack with any purchase at drinklmnt.com/ramit. That's drinklmnt.com/ramit. Try it totally risk-free. If you don't like it, they'll give you your money back, no questions asked. My philosophy with your money is you've got to fight for simplicity, and we use the same principle in my company. At IWT, we fight for simplicity because we have a small but incredibly capable and talented team. We all work remotely, so we don't have commute time. We only partner with brands that we love and respect and that are easy to work with. So if you are looking to simplify parts of your business like payroll, HR, and more, check out Gusto. Gusto is online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses. It's all-in-one, it's remote-friendly, and it is incredibly easy to use so you can pay, hire, onboard, and support your team from anywhere. Whether you need help with automatic payroll tax filing, simple direct deposits, health benefits, commuter benefits, workers' comp, or 401 matches, Gusto makes it simple and has solutions for nearly every budget. It also helps you save time with automated tools built right in, like offer letters, onboarding materials, all of these things so you don't have to create everything yourself from scratch. Plus, it's simple to switch. Just transfer your existing data to their system and you're good to go. Try Gusto today at gusto.com/Ramit and get 3 months free when you run your first payroll. That's 3 months of free payroll at gusto.com/Ramit. One more time, gusto.com/Ramit. Can I flip this situation for a second? Let's say that a man lived in the US, meets a woman who moved here from Brazil. She doesn't have her citizenship or residency. He's making more, he's been working for a long time, and then they move in, get married. He's paying more proportionally, her income is lower. Would this be an issue at all? No, no. What do you say, Maria?

Probably not.

Why is this an issue here?

I think that's because I'm a man, you know? That's like, like that, that belief that she brings from her, uh, culture, and I bring from my culture too, that the man is to lead, is the one that takes like the, the initiative to do things.

Good.

And takes care of things. I think that I'm being negligent on that at this point because, uh, it's okay, she makes more money, but I was supposed to be the one that taking the lead, ah, to do the— to manage the thing and make the thing happen.

Okay, can you be a leader if she makes more money than you?

I think so.

I think so too.

It's kind of challenging for me first because I just got my immigration situation done. Second is the language. So I think that I speak English enough, but sometimes it's not that great for to take care of things. I don't know how the laws and the opportunities work here because it's 12 years. Seems like a lot, but it's not enough to get everything that I should know about how the system work in here. I try to learn a lot, but anyways. Okay. She is much better. She's a native.

And Maria, what about you?

That's a really interesting thought. I didn't make that much money until recently, and I had the— I was child-rearing. I was a stay-at-home mom for 6 years. I really like being a homemaker, and I didn't really want to work full-time. On the other hand, being with Andre, it's been a good push for me to like, okay, Nobody's taking care of you here. Like, you gotta figure this out. And that was part of the, like, shifting gears because none of the women in my family, like my blood relatives, um, they were all homemakers primarily. They didn't put their careers first. And at some point I realized, like, I was waiting for money to come from somewhere else. At the same time, like, there— I've always been very, very active with the community, with starting projects and like planning the meals and do all the social engagements and all of that. So it's a lot of that has to fall by the wayside when I'm working full-time, because that's not the kind of thing that he does at all. Like I do almost 100% of all that. So that's why it's an interesting juxtaposition, because it's not as simple as like just trading off the finances. There's other trade-offs too.

Of course, yes, that makes sense. So much of what we're talking about here is about gender and identity. Yeah, expectations. And those are real. Like you have said repeatedly, André, a man needs to be a man, a man needs to lead.

That's real.

That's in many cultures. I also hear what you're saying, Maria. You were waiting for a long time for somebody else to help with the money. That's real. And at the same time, I'm wondering, do we have to simply abide by those roles that we grew up with?

Yeah.

Honestly, this would not be a conversation if the roles were reversed. If we had a man earning more than his wife and she was working to make more money, but she probably never would make as much as him, and he had to cover some of her expenses because they're married and in their 50s. This would not be an episode. You would not be listening to this right now. But because the gender roles have reversed, this is challenging and even controversial. And I want to be candid about this. We have gender roles. They are real, but we should still be questioning them. I actually think that people are more capable than they themselves know. Just because they grew up seeing gender represented in a certain way doesn't mean it has to be that way. I know plenty of young women. In fact, women in cities earn more than young men in their 20s. So what does that mean? It's having quite different effects across the socioeconomic spectrum. And the fact is, we have to start dealing with a new way of relating to money. Let me understand a little bit more about how you each grew up with money. Maria, what do you remember your family saying about money when you were young?

They didn't talk about it a lot. There was always enough for everything. And I always knew that I'd have, like, my college paid for. But aside from that, it was like if I wanted anything, I needed to earn at least half the money myself. We didn't do any kind of, like, luxury things, really. Um, that's not the way that my parents wanted to spend their money.

What part of the country generally did you grow up in?

Central Coast, California.

Got it.

Okay.

And, um, Are your parents still alive, still together?

Yes, still alive, still together.

How are they doing financially?

They're doing okay, but they don't like to spend money. Ah, yeah.

Do they have it?

They have enough.

They have enough and they don't like to spend it?

No.

Tell me more.

I think they're afraid of not having money. They both grew up in situations where there were at least periods of poverty, and so they have that that scarcity of feeling of like somebody could lose their job and we would lose all their money, even though they're retired.

You think that they are reasonable to believe that, or has it become unreasonable?

I think it's become unreasonable. I wish they would enjoy their life more.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

You tell them that?

Yeah.

And what do they say?

They just kind of blow it off.

It's hard to change. Decades, sometimes generations of belief. Do you think any of that also lives in you?

One of my money dials is being able to give generously to my family. I really have loved being able to spend money since I started making more money in ways that feel really good and satisfying and fulfilling. So for some reason I didn't take that on.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Did you think that was accidental or was it purposeful?

When I left for college, I just really shed a lot of my family beliefs and—

Really?

Didn't take those with me, yeah.

How'd you do that?

I don't know. I was just really open to new thoughts and ideas and did things really differently than my parents. Even if I would come visit for a little while, I'd be like, "So, how long are you staying for?" Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah, they, my dad basically had the thought that like, once you're 18, you're on your own financially except for paying for college.

Wow.

He instilled a lot of independence in that way.

And did both of them work or just one?

Just my dad. My mom, um, she had a career, so to speak. She was also a teacher. She got her master's in linguistics, but she only worked really part-time. She put everything else first, and she never made good money doing that.

I see.

Or significant money, I should say.

Does she ever talk to you about money?

No, not really.

And your dad?

No, no, not really.

Okay.

Where have you learned about money from?

From you.

Okay.

From other people on the internet.

How'd you do that? Did you go online searching for like— yeah, investing and things like that?

Yeah.

Okay, that's cool. And when you encountered this, what was your reaction to all this material, books and things out there?

Well, I think that he and I both had this sense of like being responsible with money, but not planning it or managing it, like, beyond the month to month.

Okay.

And so I definitely had a feeling of like, I could have been doing this differently all this time. Yeah, but I do remember my thought process when I was younger was like, the future is uncertain. And who knows, like, if the world was going to implode by then and And then what good would all that money do me at that point?

Right.

So now I'm like, well, it's probably going to be around in some form in 8 years. So it feels more real.

This is very common, especially when people are young, kind of like a little nihilistic, and they go like, ah, who knows? I'll be dead by then. And so you can't take it with you. All these phrases that we've absorbed. Yeah. And then as we get into typically 40s, We go, oh, wait a second, like, I actually know people who are older and they're not in a good situation, or the word retirement starts to loom as more real. So that's classic, classic path you were on.

Sure.

That's pretty interesting. Um, what messages about money do you think you bring from your family to this relationship?

I definitely carry, um, a sense of responsibility for the household in terms of like the grocery shopping and food and household finance management in that kind of way. I think a lot of women that work full-time joke like, "I wish I had a wife," you know, that kind of thing. And so I'm doing both of those roles. I definitely feel like men should work. Like, it would feel awkward to me if I was, you know, supporting him 100%. So I guess that's a message that I'm bringing on. And I don't necessarily feel that way about women. Like, Because I see that women do so much caretaking, and so I feel like it can be more acceptable.

André, what about you? What do you remember about your family saying around money when you were growing up?

No talking about money at all.

None?

None.

Is that common?

Yeah, I think that is common in Brazil. So my dad was like a hard worker the whole life. He was like always providing. We never had like a hard time at home. Okay, it's like a tight life, you know, not the rich people, but always we were living in a nice place, um, having everything that we need. We went to the school, my father was providing for everything. But I remember that was like when I was asking him, oh, would you like to have the bicycle, would you like to have this and that, or a trip or something, or the answer was always No.

Really? No. And then what?

No, and period. That's it?

And what did you say when he said no?

Well, I didn't have a chance to say anything.

Okay, just end of story.

End of the story. And then when I became 14 years old, I started working to make my own money, to get the things that I couldn't have from my family. But I didn't have an idea how to manage that money because we never talk about that.

Did your mom work? No. Okay.

Just at home.

She was at home.

All right.

And how many siblings do you have?

Just one brother.

Okay, got it. All right. When you were 14, what job did you get?

I was working in administration.

Like a messenger kind of thing.

A messenger.

Okay. And what'd you do with the money that you made?

Basically, I was using to have fun and buy clothes that I would like to have, my parents never gave to me.

Got it.

So in Brazil, we have a different culture. Teenagers in Brazil, they like to wear brands. And I never had a brand sneaker, for example, or something like that. That was okay. Now I can buy it.

Cool.

All right.

And he was hustling too. Like, in Brazil, they let teenagers go to school at night.

So he was working full time during the day and then going to high school at night.

Really?

Yeah.

Like, we both started working around the same time. And I felt like I was doing a lot, but compared to Brazilian standards, no.

Wow.

That's quite interesting. Andre, what messages about money from your childhood do you bring to this relationship?

Money is tight. Money is like scarcity.

Yeah, it's not enough.

You have to make money and hold it. Ah, don't spend money. At the same time, I think so. I work so hard, I deserve it. I deserve it to have like a better life. I deserve it to go to a restaurant and look at the menu to the left side not the right side. I don't want to— I don't care about how much they're gonna charge me.

Yeah.

So I want this dish, you know. I feel so— if I don't have money, I don't go, period.

And if I do go, I'm gonna get what I want.

Yeah, exactly.

I think he definitely brings that, that like work hustle ethic of like just keep on working, keep on working, keep on paying the bills, and rather than like the vision.

Yeah, you know.

Yeah, definitely.

And to a higher degree than like anybody I grew up with or know from the US.

Meaning work harder. Yeah, yeah.

Like it's more of an immigrant work ethic that I see. Yeah, like you're gonna work two jobs in one day, you know.

Many people who come here are just, I just need to work hard and I, that vision thing is, I don't understand what that is. I'm just gonna double down and work harder than anybody else. How much of this is resonating with you?

I think that is 100% accurate.

How do you think all that contributes to where you are today?

The main thing is like we never knew about money before. We could start earlier. Yep. For saving money and planning the future and everything. Yeah.

One thing I heard about you, there wasn't a lot of planning going forward. It's just like work hard today.

Work and pay the bills. That's it.

That's it.

And that's for life.

Okay?

What's the laughter?

Like, that's not a plan. Yeah. But I definitely, like, respect that he is a hard worker, and that's something I've always appreciated about him from day one. But yeah, that balance. We really need that balance.

Do not wait to learn about money, and definitely do not wait to talk about money. She didn't start taking action on her money until her late 40s. He didn't take his money seriously either. And this is exactly what happens when it comes to personal finance. This is why I want you to learn about your money and then you to talk to your kids about money. I am sick of so many people growing up with their parents never talking about money, and then they are left defenseless to figure it out on their own. That's why I wrote my books. That's why I started this podcast. Take control and stop waiting for someone to come save you. What else do you make of what I said about the clues from your childhood, Maria? How do they combine to bring you to where you are today?

I know it adds to his sense of shame that he mentioned.

Because?

Because like he said, he feels the man should work. And I think by that he means should contribute more financially than the woman does.

Should make more, should contribute more.

Yeah.

Yeah. I don't think that should be more. I think that should be balanced.

Does that mean equal?

Not equal. I don't mind if it was a little bit less. For example, I would like to share at least 50% with everything, you know? Okay.

What if you never make as much as Maria?

I wouldn't care about her at all. It's like, uh, about how much she's— she was making or not. Oh, she— if it was me in her— in her— in her place. Yeah. I would say like, okay, making money enough to have your, uh, to do your things, to contribute with this and this and that. I would take care of the rest. I really don't care. Okay, that was my position if I was in her shoes.

I'm okay with that if he has leisure time and he's, like you said, kind of covering your own bills, because honestly, in the last well, almost since we met, I've been actually covering some of his business expenses, mainly the vehicle. He's never really been able to cover a work vehicle that's needed for his job, and it's a huge money drain.

Yeah.

I think if he had those bases covered and didn't have to work until he was 80 or whatever, then yeah, I'm okay with it being imbalanced for sure.

Okay, that's cool. That's actually, that's actually pretty different than how you were both raised. So I appreciate you coming up with perhaps a different vision than you grew up with, but that might be right for the two of you. Let's dial in a little bit more on that, uh, rich life. Have you talked about it?

Yeah.

What is it? What's your rich life, Maria?

Well, then I'd have more time with my husband. In many ways, I feel like we're already living it. I really happy with our life. Um, get to live in a beautiful place and be in nature, go to the beach almost every day, and get to spend good time with my family. And most of the family is pretty close. If I could wave a magic wand and have everything I wanted, then we've both mentioned that we would like to have our own house. I don't see how that could happen where we live now very easily in our current situation, but, um, And then I like to travel. You could see on our CSP that that's like a high area where we save for and stuff.

Where do you like to go?

I just got back from the desert with my kids. I like to go there every spring. Our vision is to go to Brazil every winter and not have to do winter over here.

Nice.

Cool. Yeah.

Okay.

What about you, André?

Rich life for me is balance. Being responsible with the money. But, uh, if I want to do something or buy something that I, I think that is reasonable or just for a desire, let's say that I want to buy like a boat or something like that, that was like, oh, really wouldn't buy this, and I can count on the money and go there and purchase whatever I want, being reasonable for sure, and have a balance of life, talking about how many hours and how hard I work.

How many hours you want to work in your rich life?

40 hours a week. All right. And that's it.

And, um, what about traveling to Brazil? Is that part of your rich life?

Yeah, it is actually. It is. That's like, like she said before, we would like to spend the wintertime, American wintertime, in Brazil because it's summertime over there. It's going to be great. Okay.

And the sense of relaxation that comes from that, because we're both kind of exhausted at the end of the day.

Yeah, that's one thing that I would like to say too, is like she is mentioning that she would like to have more, uh, my presence more like doing things after work and a weekend. I'm exhausted, man. I can't. I even if I go, I'm gonna sleep, you know. I'm not gonna be present in there. It's just gonna be my body in there. My soul is going to be in another place totally different because I feel totally tired, exhausted. I work really hard. For example, Friday I was working underneath a house all day long replacing ducts, and in a space like maybe 11 inches. Wow. I barely fit in there.

So to come back home after that, uh-huh, it's like you're checked out.

Oh yeah, I want to take a shower and eat and don't bother me, like leave me alone. Okay.

And he often works Saturdays.

Yeah, sometimes.

So then he's just spending Sunday recuperating.

I think I have a much better understanding of both of you and where you came from and the financial situation now. I'm curious, you have told me what your rich life is. It seems quite aligned. What do you think you could do with your numbers to make your rich life possible? Just conceptually. What major big things might you shift in the conscious spending plan to be able to live the rich life that you described?

I think he needs a job that values him and pays him better.

I'm working on it. I'm working hard on it. First of all, I need my license, and then there is a good opportunities over there.

I agree. So what you said, I totally agree with. I think everybody here agrees. A better job that's more stable. And that values you.

Yep.

Number one, that solves a lot of problems, right? And you're on the path to doing that.

Yeah.

Okay, so that's number one. What else?

Having the joint accounts so that it's more smooth and doesn't feel like a who's doing what kind of thing.

Agreed. That's a great insight. Number two is the two of you truly acting like a team. Your money is already combined for the most part, so just go the extra step and the two of you look at it together, that would be awesome. That will make you much more of a team instead of this his and hers mentality. I agree. Anything else?

Keeping the business expenses separate.

Yes.

So it's not a drain.

100%. Yes. There's got to be separation because that makes everything too confusing. It's just unclear what's going on. Then there's resentment. We don't want that. Yes. Clear separation. What else?

Understanding.

Tell me more.

Being understanding about the situation that we are.

Yes.

So, uh, for my, for my side, I need to understand that she makes more money than me. She is— she knows my situation, and I, I, I don't need to be like that, that defensive about that. And she, from her side, understand that what's my situation now and understand that it takes time. I'm working on it, you know.

I think that's actually beautiful. Understanding, acceptance. I love that you led with yourself first. You said, I need to accept, I need to understand that she makes more and not be defensive about it. That's, uh, yeah, very powerful. And I love that you then said, this is what I need from her. Very powerful. Kind of want to acknowledge Andre. There's so many things that I notice and that I admire about him. Before we started recording, he mentioned that his English was not particularly good, and he asked if sometimes if he didn't understand what I was saying, if I could repeat it in a different way. And I was kind of surprised because I thought his English is excellent. What really surprised me about André is his self-awareness. Growing up in one culture and coming to another is not easy. He talks about the culture he grew up in. He talks about the culture here. He acknowledges that he has not done a great job being a leader. And he also talks about how tired he is when he comes home from 6 days a week of work. There's a lot to be said for being able to acknowledge where you are, your weaknesses. And one of the things that I hope to be able to help them with is where to go from here. What I'm seeing here is you were raised in the US even though you were not taught about money and you were relatively recently on food stamps. But actually your career has done very, very well. You married Andre, who came from another country. Grew up hustling. That's what he saw from his dad. Now, yeah, I don't think that according to maybe US standards, you have not strategically operated your career in the way that somebody who's taken my Dream Job program would. But you've worked hard. You have been agile with these companies that may not have treated you particularly well. You're getting a license and you're on the path to get another job. I think that's really powerful to accept. Maria, you're always going to make more money. That's just the nature of you having chosen this career path, etc. And that means you're probably going to shoulder proportionally more of the expenses. I think that's— you got to accept that. But then I just zoom out and I go, wait a minute, why are we even talking about this? The two of you are married, so it's less about who's shouldering what. And more like, what's the rich life vision and how can both of us get there? Now, if you're— Maria, if you're like, look, I make more money, so I don't want to have to go grocery shopping anymore. Fair enough. We can talk about that. We can find a solution. That's totally reasonable. But I think that the moment we get out of the me versus you and instead go to us, you actually are in an amazing position. How does that strike both of you?

It sounds reasonable.

Yeah, it sounds true. We had that conversation like 2 or 3 weeks ago and ran some numbers and it was like, you know what, even if nothing changed, we're gonna be okay.

Really?

Yeah, in terms of financially.

Okay.

We still want him to work less and not be so exhausted all the time, so that piece needs to change. But, and it wouldn't be as much as we would like, and that I think that he deserves, but it's not like a dire, scary situation, which that was kind of a shift. I was like, I think we might be in a scary situation here together. But when we looked at the numbers more closely, it was like, okay, we're gonna be okay.

Wow, that's powerful. How did you feel when you came to that realization?

I felt relief.

Nice. Yeah. What about you, André? I don't think you realized it.

Yeah, no, we talk about that.

But did you feel it, or did you say, uh, okay, I need to work more?

I feel that because the culture that she has and the beliefs that she has, she understands that what's the best idea to get there. But like, as you said before, so you're not like that. From since the beginning.

Yes.

So it's not your setup.

Yeah, that's not your default.

It's not your default. Yeah. And then once in a while, that's the default pops up, and I think I need to work more, and then I feel threatened. Okay.

Yes. So this is not just one person who needs to change, it's both. Because Maria, as I've spoken to her, I I told her, look, you make more, and that is something you're going to have to accept. If you want to live this rich life together with more time together, you're going to have to accept it and get comfortable on the expenses. But she's not the only one who has to change.

No.

You have to take the leadership on other areas like making the plan, communicating it effectively, working with your boss. Jobs, etc. How do you feel about that?

I would love for him to take more initiative.

Okay.

I'm definitely the leader manager in the relationship right now.

Actually, we were talking about yesterday and we were having like a pizza last night and when she was like, I was trying to say what I wanted to and she was taking the decision and I let her do it. And then at the end of this, I need you. Would you like to choose? How would you like to take the lead on it? How would you like to say what I want and you don't let me? I'm not fighting with you. I'm just suggesting that you let me do it. Wow.

That's true.

This is a very powerful lesson over pizza. Actually, very amazing. I know you see a therapist. Do the two of you see one together?

We should. We do not.

I think that would be amazing. This pizza is the first thing that I think you should bring up. This dynamic is co-created. It is not just one of them. And the good news is that even though they are in their 50s, they still can make a change. And the powerful thing they have here is a vision of a rich life that is inextricably together. We're going to go to the numbers and what we're going to do is we're going to look at them and see what changes, if any, you want to make specifically in your conscious spending plan to be able to live the rich life that you want. We have a gross monthly income. I'm actually going to just increase this. Are you okay with that? Sure. Let's fast forward. Okay. So September, how much should I put?

$11,670. $11,670 would be my, of course, my contribution.

Okay. $11,670.

Yeah.

Right there. 63% now.

Mm-hmm.

Fixed costs.

Yeah, it's much better.

Much better. So we went down from 68% to 63%. Rent isn't going to change. Utility is not going to change. Insurance, fine. Car payment at $770, not changing, correct?

Not for 4 years.

What car is it?

Tacoma.

Toyota Tacoma.

Toyota Tacoma.

It's a very reasonable car. How'd you get it at 2.99%?

I have amazing credit.

Yeah, because her credit, it was really nice. Yeah. And we got like, at the end of the year, and that's what I think they gave me.

Oh, best time to buy a car.

Yeah, yeah.

They're desperate.

Yeah, because they need to put in a market the new one, and the one that they have in stock, gotta go.

I love it. This is what I did exactly, walking in and watching the absolute desperation on the sales floor. And people are like, oh, Ramit, you're so mean to car salespeople. I'm not mean, but I'm going to extract every last dollar when I am buying a car. So amazing. December Mid-December to the end of the year. Beautiful time to buy. Great job.

Okay.

And then after that, that goes away as well.

Well, he burns through vehicles. That's the thing.

So, yeah, you can't burn through a Toyota in 5 years.

Wow. At least 3,000 miles a month.

Okay, we'll see.

We'll see.

You're not going to find me arguing against a Toyota on this show. Okay. Debt payments at zero. Well done. Groceries at $800. All right. Child support at $325, not changing?

Not changing. Okay, actually, we— it's about to change because she turns 18 years old.

Oh, so she should be taken off?

Not, not for now, because that is like, uh, the laws are changing in Brazil. I don't know what's gonna happen.

All right, let's leave it. Okay, look, cut to the chase. The miscellaneous here, if you wanted to, you could reduce that. It's $1,000 a month.

Mm-hmm.

People who do not track carefully at all, they incur 15% extra. But if you make it a point to track, you can usually cut this number down by 50% to 80%. So it just depends on if you want to do this or not.

My sense is that it's covering things that we're aware of, but it just for the simplification of the spreadsheet, just put them all in that one category.

So keep it?

I think so.

Okay, great. Let's keep it then. All right, investments, you're at 11%. Savings, including $1,000 a month for Brazil travel. Is that accurate?

Well, and other vacations. Yeah.

All right, keeping it. And then, wow, look at this, down. You now have $1,832 $500 a month in guilt-free spending. That's 15%. Right now you're spending less than that, correct?

Uh-huh.

Yeah.

So, I mean, again, you have money to play with. You could take $500, $800 a month, whatever the number is, and put it into investments if you like. What do you think? Why is it getting so quiet in here?

I think because we haven't experienced those numbers yet because it's— they're happening in the future. So I'm like, where'd all that extra money come from? Yeah. So this is thinking ahead of like, okay, when we start making more money, where do we want that extra money to go?

This is— it's kind of hard, right?

Yeah.

Okay.

I just now actually clicked that in.

Yes. This is why. So I love this. The difficulty you are having in, like, first of all, just believing that this is going to happen. And then second, like, what do I do with this? That is so common because most of us never plan. Never. We're literally just reacting day by day. Oh, this expense, that expense, where's the money? And what we are doing here with the CSP is zooming out, even zooming forward in time a few months when the new raise comes in. And now we're like, whoa, we have way more money than we thought. What are we supposed to do with it? But notice that it's difficult for you to make a plan. It's also difficult for him to make a plan.

Mm-hmm.

So the two of you are actually in this more together than you realized. Making a plan is not natural to most people.

No, definitely not.

So let's work the plan. Right now, according to this, you have $1,800 a month in guilt-free spending. I think you should spend some money guilt-free. Go out to nice dinners. And—

Yeah, I think doing $500 a month in investments to help with retirement would be good.

All right, let's do it.

For 2 people.

Let's put it in there. Wow, 15% of take-home. It's actually more than that. Because you got some pre-tax stuff. That's pretty good. That's, uh, $2,000 a month being invested post-tax and another roughly $2,000 a month being invested pre-tax. That's $4,000 a month. What do you think?

That's great. That's awesome.

It's pretty good.

Close to $50,000 a year.

And now we have not factored in one other major driver here. Your income, what do you think it's going to be? You have a sense?

Yeah, so I can, uh, after I got a new job and after the license, I can make like the— my net is going to be around $8,000.

$8,000? You currently make $4,200 net?

Yeah.

You're gonna double that?

Yeah.

Okay, do you want to see what happens? Did you do this in the CS? No, no, no. Why not? The CSP, the whole point is to play around and project. People go, no, I didn't do the one thing that would be amazing.

That would be fun.

Why not? Because do you believe that it's going to happen?

I think so. I think to be more realistic, it's like in the very beginning it was going to be about 6. Okay. And then when I get stable, it's going to be about 8.

All right, well, let's see what happens at both. I do love that It is so funny. People love to worry about money. They love to agonize about money. But the one thing they rarely do is actually plan for when things go well. Mm-hmm. So sometimes I get to have fun like this and show you. Let's take a look. $6,000 instead of $4,200 net. Watch the numbers. It dropped to 55%. Net per month is now $14,380. This isn't a fantasy. This is very likely to happen, right? Yeah, yeah, very likely.

Very likely.

Let's take a look at how much you now have left. You now have $3,000 a month to spend on guilt-free spending. Just to bring this really down to earth, this is going to happen. It's a matter of time. If you had $3,000 a month guilt-free spending, how would your lives change?

I'd love to hear what you have to say about that.

I think that it's kind of— I consider like a financial freedom.

Keep going.

To be reasonable and responsible, but spending money the things that I would like to do.

Like?

Going out for dinner, like a trip here and there, something that I would like to buy and I can't now.

Chocolates.

Chocolates and things like that, or some electronic that I would like to buy.

That's what you do. Love that. What I'm hearing is be reasonable, keep saving, keep investing, increase those numbers probably, but also spend a little bit on things I love. That's how, that's how money works. That's exactly what I would do. What do you think, Maria?

I agree completely. Yeah.

Okay. What's interesting is having this conversation where we are plugging the numbers in, We are fast-forwarding, even going as far as me showing you what happens when you make $8,000 net. Watch this.

Wow.

Fixed costs drop down to 48%. You now have $5,000 a month. Okay. We ran some numbers, and I would like to show you some of the possibilities of what might happen with your finances.

Okay? Okay.

Andre, with your additional income, if you increase your retirement contributions by an additional $2,000 a month, by the time, Maria, you are 61, the two of you will have $1.53 million. What does that mean to you?

Well, it means like we did it. Yeah, yeah, we bid it.

Okay, let me give you a little bit more color on what that number is. If you were to take 4% out every year, which is kind of a conservative estimate, that would mean $61,000 a year in safe withdrawal income from your investments, which is basically double our earlier projections. So if we include the pension at 50% and the new investment income that you could take out starting at age 61 for Maria, that would mean that combined with Social Security, a small amount, you would have $135,000 per year. What do you think?

Can you go? And then I follow you?

We would be comfortable. We would be— we could live a good life.

It's gonna be a reasonable life. Reasonable. Okay. Not like a rich, rich life that we can like do fancy things, but it's safe. Okay.

Would you want more?

For sure.

Both say yes.

Okay.

This is how we think strategically. This is how we go from just working every day to building a plan. What are your options? Each of you give me one.

He'll only be 59, so I imagine he's going to want to work longer.

Okay, so you could work longer. Work a few more years. That will allow you to invest even more. That will allow your income in retirement to go up.

Saving more.

Yes. You could cut your expenses now and contribute more to retirement. Absolutely.

Downsizing. Yeah. For example.

Great. You could move to a smaller place.

You could—

cut down on XYZ expenses, for sure you could do that.

Mm-hmm.

Okay, back to you, Maria.

Did we mention making more money, like increasing his income even more?

Could do that, because right now I have $2,000 a month going towards retirement. Because if, for example, if you're making an extra $4,000 a month, if you want to get really aggressive you could take $3,500 of that and put it towards retirement and take the $500 and have a nice time. It's up to you. That's a variable. I agree.

Yeah.

Maria suggested to you that you could work longer. What if you suggested the same thing to her?

How about you?

I was— I was— the next thing I was gonna say is I could work towards another promotion where I'm making more. I still want to plan on stopping working full-time as soon as I can. But that does— but I can work part-time for longer. Nice. While you're still working.

Yeah, lots of options. So there's so many things that I see. Again, this is what I'm trying to show you is how to think about a plan, because your plan has lots of different opportunities for you. If first of all, just to find out that you're going to make over $130,000 in retirement, retiring age 61 is amazing. Incredible. Second, the fact that you have lots of different levers to push in order to make more. You can work longer. You can work longer. You can get a promotion and go— because I only conservatively used 50% of your salary. You can take it up to 60%. You can make more. You cut expenses. There are a lot of different things that you can do, but all of it is up to you. You all just get to decide. But the difference is it's not just up to chance, which I think has been kind of an underlying belief for a long time. We just need to work harder and hope that it all works out. I don't think so. There's a plan. You all get to choose.

I like that there's, um, that there's lots of options, and none of these have to involve Andre working till he's 80. So that means we would get more time together.

Definitely. That's the core lesson from this plan.

Yeah.

This is a conversation where we're talking about what do we get to do? What do we get to do? And it's fun. It's like, let's stay longer in Brazil, or let's treat our family to something beautiful. All these things, right? In order to do that, two things have to happen. One, you got to keep moving forward on the career that both of you have agreed to. But second, you actually have to probably leave some of those beliefs behind, both of you. The beliefs that it needs to be yours versus mine, that we need to split everything 50/50. Why?

You're married.

You all have a future together. As I say in Money for Couples, our future is together.

It's not a competition, it's a team going to the same direction.

We're more powerful together. Yeah, it's nice to think it's not that far in the future. It feels like I've been waiting for so long that I, like, I don't have my head out of the, the weeds, and it's like, oh, this could happen really soon.

Actually, there's advice that you're giving to us, it gave me hope.

Really?

Yeah. I was like, I was like, okay, focus, work, work, work, work, make it happen. But I couldn't see the future, and I was like, when finally it will happen, and how far is that? I couldn't see that. Yeah. And then it brings me It brought me hope.

Yeah.

I'm so glad.

I think this couple is adorable. I mean, between us starting to shoot, they were holding hands with each other. There's a lot of asking each other what they think. And I have a lot of confidence in this couple, not only because financially they're actually in a pretty impressive position, but because they are talking, they are communicating, they are listening. And I can see the wheels turning. As they both realize they are going to have to change the way that they interact with money. You know, one of the most powerful things in life is to know that you have levers you can pull. That's because so much of life feels out of our control. So when I was asking them questions about what might happen, they were just stuck in this one-dimensional view of their finances. But when we zoomed out and we showed them they have different options, they can work longer, they can save more, they can contribute more. There's so many ways they can do it. That was very empowering. And I want you to know that you have levers you can pull with your own finances as well. Let's check out their follow-ups.

Hi there. Following up on our session with Ramit Sethi. I would say the biggest surprise was seeing that our financial future as a couple wasn't as dire as I was concerned it might be. And a key takeaway was feeling how important it is to be a cohesive team to move forward together. And now that Andrei's more solid, I don't have to figure this out alone. And that feels really good. The change that we will be making is me stepping back and trusting that Andrei wants to take more initiative with the money dates and also planning our first trip to Brazil.

Hi, my biggest surprise is I had the opportunity to understand that even with 15 years old, if I manage the money and combine the finances with my, my wife, we can have a good result and reach our goals. My takeaway was the discipline and knowledge is the key for the success. And the change that we decided to do together was combine our expenses assets, bills in one account.

Since we met, André and I have worked out most of the logistics of directing funds from our personal accounts to our shared accounts, which has allowed André to contribute 10% of his paychecks to his retirement account. And we've been more clear about how we're in this together, and together we're doing fine financially. I see André really dedicating himself to reaching his career goals, so I know we'll have a stable future where he's not just in survival mode and we'll have more free time together. Speaking of, he did the work of purchasing our tickets to Brazil. It'll be his first time back in 12 years. So yeah, thank you for the intention that you brought to help us create our rich lives together.

I would like to say that I feel more confident now. It helped me to feel more financially safe. So I check my credit every day to make sure that I need to take some actions, check my budget weekly to make sure that it's in good shape. I talk to my wife about expenses and I watch my business expenses to make sure that I'm not going to spend money and having a problem with my credit card. So this has been amazing. Uh, it's much better relationship with her. So thank you, Ramit Sethi. You helped me a lot.

Listen up. If you want my help with your specific money questions, there are only two ways to get it. First, you can apply to be on this podcast at iwt.com/apply, or second, you can join my money coaching program instantly at iwt.com/moneycoaching. In that program, you get access to live virtual events, monthly group coaching calls, live Q&As, and an amazing, huge community of other people like you. Check it out at iwt.com/moneycoaching.