“I quit my job to care for our son, but can we afford it?”

He could end up in heart failure on Friday and we would need to move into the hospital. That is our reality. It was too much. So we made the choice to have me stop working.

I've doubled my income, but I feel like we have way less money.

If I compare our network to other people with our similar backgrounds, we are behind.

It felt like we were just taking our foot off the gas a little bit, but now it feels more like we shifted into. Into neutral.

I worry about everything. He worries about everything. We just don't align on what to do with that worry.

You are weaponizing the tropes of this podcast against me.

Can I pause things for a second? I don't think the point of this podcast is to, like, win ramit over. All right, I'm looking at Anna and Will's CSP today. They are 33 and 37 years old. Assets, $654,000. Investments 3, $366,000. Savings, $188,000. Debt, 495,000 for a total net worth of 714,000. All right, that looks amazing. Gross monthly income is 15.5k for 186k. Also very impressive. At first I was like, why am I talking to this couple? But in their application, Anna writes, our family dynamics have changed drastically since 2022. We were earning $260,000 a year with one child. Then we bought a home and had our second child. He was born with a severe congenital heart defect and our lives were upended. After two open heart surgeries and with months in and out of the hospital, I left my job because I had too much on my plate. We are now spending more than we make every month though we are not spending it on anything fun. This is a reminder of why the numbers alone do not tell the story. I'm very much looking forward to speaking to Anna and Will, figuring out what happened, where they are today and where they can go in the future. Can you help me understand the dynamics of your family finances? What changed since 2022?

So 2022, we had one kid. We were dual income, both earning over six figures. In 2023, I was 20 weeks pregnant with our second baby and and we went in for our anatomy scan and they discovered that there's something wrong with his heart. And it was obviously an extremely earth shattering moment. There was before the anatomy scan in my life and then there's after and I was trying to figure out what to do with having a baby that quite honestly, we didn't know if he was going to survive. We were Going in for checks every two weeks, um, meeting with cardiologists and surgeons and all of these things, and building up our community. And during that time, I was trying to ramp up my career, and I couldn't anymore. Like, there was a part of my brain that was in constant panic and fear and just trying to survive every moment. So he was born. Amazingly, he had survived two open heart surgeries and about three months in the hospital in total over the past year and a half. Really defied the odds in a lot of ways, but will be a heart patient for the rest of his life. He's going to at least have one more surgery, but anyways, he's doing great. We've been through a kind of incredible turmoil and back to the income. When I did go back to work, it was after his second surgery. So I had been off for six months, in and out of the hospital, all of those things. When I did go back, I was brought back part time, which was working really great. But ultimately he was still having so many struggles. It was too much. And so we made the choice to have me stop working.

Wow.

Thank you so much for sharing. I'm sorry what you've had to go through. And also, I'm really happy that your son was born and that you've been able to see him grow. Are you comfortable talking a little bit more about your son and the medical issues? I want to get to the finances, but it helps me understand what's going on. If I can ask a few more questions. Yeah, okay. You seem very conversant about it. Like, you've obviously thought about it and talked about it a lot. How. How did you get that way?

I'll toot your horn for you.

Go for it.

She processes her feelings through writing a lot. And so Anna started a blog that was primarily for friends and family, just to, like, get them up to date. And through that, she started getting connected with a lot of other families that were going through the same thing. And she also made a lot of great connections in the hospital with other families that had children with heart defects. And I think that both of us going through that experience really developed a lot of empathy and concern over how difficult it is for so many families when they have children with chronic conditions and they're spending a lot of time in the hospital. And I think Anna's really taken that a passion of hers, and she's now involved with two charities and volunteers at the hospital.

I love the mission that you, Anna, and both of you have taken on. Honestly, I'm so Glad I asked. Like, forget the finances. This is way more interesting.

Obviously, it's easy to get swallowed up by fear and the overwhelm of this life that we now leave. But what we've learned together, and me specifically, by writing this substack, is if you just tell people what's going on, it will help you process it. And what I've learned is that there's so many people out there who need so much help, and I have the skills, and so does Will, to connect with people, speak with doctors in a really productive way, connect with nonprofits, all of these things. We are extremely privileged, and I think we have a duty to serve this community, and it's been extremely rewarding, honestly.

Thank you for bringing me into your world. Everybody goes through something rarely as serious as this. But the overwhelming feeling, I know having gone through certain things in. In my own life and certainly talking to the people who speak to me, is how lonely it can feel. And I love that you've found a purpose, even in a way that's totally unexpected. You wouldn't have predicted it three years ago, so thank you for sharing that. I want to turn to what the effect of this was on your finances.

We went from earning like 2:65 a year to like 1:50. And we kind of thought it was going to be a little more temporary than it's been. Things with our son are. Are incredibly great right now. So in January, I've started taking on some contract work that I am absolutely loving. My hope is that I can ramp that up and then be able to ramp it down if and when needed for my son's care.

Listening to Anna and Will share their story, we can all hear how fragile our lives can be when something unpredictable happens, especially with kids.

What strikes me is not just how.

Resilient they are, but the fact that they had actually planned for this. They're still in survival mode, though, understandably. But it's quite impressive, quite amazing, all the preparation that they had done before this moment. This is one of the reasons that I stress how important an emergency fund really is, because when you need it, you will be so thankful you planned for it. But with Anna and Will, you can.

Tell that they aren't sure how to.

Pivot from survival to something a lot more intentional. And I can tell you that answer is going to surprise you. That is what we are here to uncover.

I don't think we made the right adjustments of, like, okay, you're not working anymore. Like, pull both kids out of school. We were like, we have the Buffer. We're going to use the buffer. And now we're, like, a little nervous about where we're at.

Okay. Well, I have to say that most couples, when they experience a layoff or one person stops working, most of them don't know their numbers at all. First of all, most of them don't adjust. Okay. And they certainly don't make as strategic of a decision like, hey, we have this buffer. We are going to use it. So, yes. Okay, you probably overused it. We'll talk about that. Look at the numbers. But just the fact that you even knew it is quite a good sign. Will, I want to hear from you. What did it feel like to go from two incomes to one?

It felt like we were just taking our foot off the gas a little bit, which is fine, but now it feels more like we shifted into neutral.

Anna, what about you? What did it feel like to take that household pay cut?

Horrible. It felt horrible. It felt bad because I'm a career driven person and it was really hard to step back. I think there's an anxiety that and stress that drags me forward. Whether it's taking care of my son in the hospital and advocating for his needs or hitting a deadline at work, I thrive in that kind of crisis mode. Giving myself free time was scary, and I'm still panicking about it a little bit. Like, did I completely derail my career? How am I ever going to recover from this? Oh, by the way. But also, I want to be an amazing mom and present to both of my kids. It's like there's two versions of me that I want to be perfect at. So when I can't do that, it feels bad.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You alluded to you've thrived on accomplishing things and achievement and would tinge with a little bit of anxiety probably for a long time. Do you enjoy relaxing? I think that answer tells me all I need to know. All right, thank you. And Will's over here shaking his head subtly. He's like, will, tell the truth. The partner always knows best. Does she? Yeah.

No. Relaxing for her is like, oh, yeah, I went to the park with the kids. But that's not relaxing because she was like, I checked off the box that we went outside today kind of thing.

Okay, so when it comes to your finances today, I think, Anna, you described it as, quote, survival mode. Do you both agree that you are in survival mode when it comes to your finances?

Will, I don't think we're in survival mode. I think we're in like a planned negative cash flow.

I think that he's saying it in order to downplay the severity, but I think that the math will still show that if we keep going on this trajectory, it's not great. I also think I wrote that we're in survival mode because of the hospital. Right. There's still like that element of us and it's like this weird moment of waking up, like, okay, we actually might be able to count on things happening that we plan on happening in the next month, which is not how you can live when you have a child who's in the hospital. So I think were still in that mindset in terms of our finances, because I'm not back to full time work.

How long did you go through complete uncertainty in your life?

I mean, I would argue that from April 23rd onward, we are in a state of uncertainty. There are different degrees of that uncertainty. Some of them are in the icu, everyone rushing in and all the beeps, beeping and saying, is this bad? How bad is this? What? You know, that uncertainty. And then there are much lesser levels of uncertainty of like, we're at the chillest point we could possibly be. He still needs to have another open heart surgery at some point. He could still develop heart failure in the next week. So I don't know how to answer the question about how long we're in uncertainty because I think there's always a level of uncertainty that we as a family need to learn how to live with and hopefully for the rest of our lives. Because that means that he's still alive.

Yeah, that's a fair answer. Your baseline for uncertainty will always be higher than another family's.

Absolutely.

And I think I'm hearing you say, like, we have to accept that. Now the question is, where is that floor? Will, would you agree with the way that she's characterized where you are today?

No, I think this is one of like our core issues when we talk, when we, when we approach not just money, just like our lives in general is. She's still operating in that survival mode. And to me, I think, yes, our baseline level of uncertainty has risen. But when we are in super high uncertainty, to me that that ended when he was about a year old. And we've slowly been getting less and less uncertain. And when I look at our finances, we're not racking up debt. I still contribute to my 401k. We still have a lot of money in savings, although we are spending more than we take in every month.

And I see you nodding while Will is Speaking. Do you agree with him?

I do agree. I'm saying my version of the truth and then you are saying your version of the truth, both of which are true. The way that you are saying it will is by taking down the intensity and removing the emotion is the emotion.

The bad thing is that like the toxin we need to cleanse from this situation.

The emotion that comes into it when we have these discussions is always negative emotions.

Ah.

There's never a positive emotion of where we're going to go, what we're aiming for. A lot of times it will be like, I'll try to talk about longer term plans. And for Anna it's like, yeah, but we could be back in the hospital by that time. And so for me, I've taken emotions out of it because if I start bringing in those positive things, then it. I kind of feel like I just get shot down. And so if I'm getting shot down, then it must not really matter what I'm aiming for, what my vision is for the long term. And, and so I think I kind of just shut down. And so my, and my defense mechanism is to just look at the numbers as themselves and say, we're, we're going to be fine and try to take the emotion out of it.

Do you say we're going to be fine to Anna?

Yeah.

Okay. And then I was gonna ask, does that ever work? But I already know it never works. Anna, does it work?

No, it doesn't work.

I think if we sit down and look at our conscious spending plan or look at like our account balances, I think at the moment Anna can see the numbers and agree. I don't think we have a disagreement on, like, the facts of the numbers, but how we interpret them, and especially how we interpret them day to day and how. And how that emotion impacts us day to day. We're in different places.

Okay. I'd like to get it to a specific example. Can you think of a time recently where the two of you were not on the same page about money?

One of the areas that we have had a number of conversations about is with childcare. Our older son goes to preschool, and our plan is to have our younger son go to that preschool starting in the fall. And childcare is expensive. And our biggest question is, does it make sense to spend that money for them to go to childcare? When Ann is not working full time but asking that question, it's very easy to say, no, it doesn't make sense, so we should stop that. But if we look at the potential and where we're trying to get in the future. She doesn't just want to stay at home. She wants to do things with her time. She wants to grow the consulting business that she's brought in. She wants to be involved in the charities that she's involved in.

Who's saying which position? Just so I understand.

I think that I'm more committed to pay for childcare. And I think Anna is very much torn by her identity as a mother versus her identity as a professional and also stressed about the money.

Anna, let's hear from you. What's your take on this?

I get panicky when I look at the numbers. And the easiest thing to do is to say we gotta pull em from childcare and I need to just stay home with them even though I have other aspirations. But in order to make the numbers work out, it seems as if that's the answer. And whereas for Will, he's saying, like, it's not a question. Like, we will continue to make our numbers look bad until we get our income up. Like, why are you still talking about this?

And how do you respond when he says that?

I guess I don't believe him. He can tell it to me and look at the numbers all you want. Like, it still doesn't feel right to me. I still feel like I am being pulled in so many different directions and I'm not making a decision. And feeling uncertain about the way I should be spending my time feels uncomfortable to me. If I commit to sending them to childcare, then I'm missing out on time with them and potentially risking being in another stressful work environment that I might have to pull myself out of for medical reasons, all of that. And if I do the opposite and I keep them home for whatever reason, there's millions of reasons why we might do it, not just for money.

So you all have had this conversation for how long about going back to work?

Spend nine months.

I like spending a lot of time on big decisions, but I don't like being stuck. I like to make a little progress one way or another. Is this decision irreversible?

No. There are ways to solve the problem in either direction.

All right, so it's a reversible decision. Can I just ask a really dumb question? What if you just flipped a coin and picked one and did it for a year?

Would happen.

I would need some emotional support in sticking with the decision, shutting down the thoughts of whether it's right or wrong.

How much of this is the script? Like, I'm a good mom if I dot, dot Dot, all of it is.

About tying it to my worth as a mom and a wife and all of that, and a career person.

Yeah, yeah. And you're deeply embedded in this decision. But as guys, there are things that we just can never understand about that messaging, like it doesn't exist for us. So there's something you're seeing almost like you have a different set of lenses that Will can try as hard as he wants. It seems like he's engaging, at least on the numbers, but ultimately this will be something that you will have to grapple with.

Sometimes when people listen to this podcast, they look at the numbers and they're shocked. Why do you feel like you don't have enough? Why are you so worried? I would love to have that much money. What Anna and Will are experiencing is an identity shift. This can happen when you make more money than you ever thought, when you lose a bunch of money, or like in their case, when the world forces you to change your identity. They used to be purely these high achieving professionals. That's how they identify. But now they have to identify as something else. And changing your identity is incredibly difficult. Hannah's trying to be the present, hands on mom, and the ambitious professional Will is adjusting to a totally different role than he ever expected. Until they accept these new identities, every financial decision is going to feel like it's pulling at them and they're going to be confused. They're going to be second guessing. They're going to be trying to make it through the way they used to do it. Coming up, a raw, emotional, revealing conversation.

Stay tuned.

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You all catching up?

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Anna, how would you characterize your discussions about money with Will?

Our discussions about money can get derailed. I would say we try to have a meeting every week about the week ahead. It's hard to do big picture work because of the uncertainty of the numbers and getting used to the privilege of right now being able to think big picture.

Because before you couldn't.

Yeah. I mean, when you have a child who has so many needs, there is no big picture. There's the next hour.

Totally.

And it was like that for months.

Can I tell you something? I can't imagine what it was like to be in the situation that you were in when you got the news. I can't imagine what it was like to be in the NICU and be in the hospital through one open heart surgery. I can't imagine what it's like to know that your son is doing better and he still has another surgery ahead of him. But I can tell you one thing. I can tell you that if I were in your situation, I would not be able to look at the big picture. I would have done probably exactly what you did, which is focus on my son, pay attention to my other kid as much as I can, Try to stay connected with the two of us and just hold on by the seat of my pants and try to live another day. I just have a lot of empathy for you, Anna, and for the two of you. And there's no shame around not being able to do what you would have done before you had your son.

Thank you for saying that. I think that we both have really high expectations for ourselves as individuals and as a family. And we look at the privileges we have and think that in our own little ways that we can be, you know, doing better. And for me, I think there's a lot of pressure. But, like, you know, we have a child who we didn't know if he was going to be born alive, and he's here and he's amazing in every way, and I want to give him the best life possible. Like, I don't think his life is more worthwhile than other people's. But, like, the fact that he's had to go through so much and still has to go through so much, like, we better do our job and be the best parents, have the best life, best schools, best house, be really, really smart about the things we let in our life and in his life to create this environment. That will will help him grow and thrive.

What would be the thing that could make your kids have the best parents they could?

I think having parents who are confident in their decision making and aligned in their decision making and present as much as possible, that's all they need. And we know that we don't do a great job of it because of stress and all of that.

Yeah. Will, what do you think?

I totally agree with Anna's vision. We want to provide them this amazing life. I often feel that because I'm not in survival mode right now and Anna is still in survival mode, that her desire to be perfect and provide this perfect life is sort of like strangling our ability to actually do it. And she's worried about every single minute being perfect. But that doesn't give us a chance to plan and work towards making sure that the next month is perfect, the next year, the next 10 years are perfect. And it also sets a really high expectation that if something's not perfect, that we failed.

What do you think about that, Ana?

I think that you nailed it. That's correct.

Wow. I totally get the idea for wanting the best. I totally get it. Like, I want. Where is this freaking thing? I have this notepad I got somewhere in Italy. I freaking searched for, like, six months to find this notepad. Okay. I went to Milan. I found it. It's like, custom. It's the best for me. I like that. I like that kind of thing. Finding this artisan, etc. I also think sometimes it can become very destructive. It's like, yeah, it's good. I'm glad I can do this once in a while. I can get that thing I want. But also, life isn't about finding the perfect ex all the time. Sometimes it's actually about enjoying the mess. Anna, you said, I worry about everything. He worries about everything. We just don't align on what to do with that worry. Is that true? That's a little surprising. Will, you sound, like, very calm and cool on today's call. Is it true you worry about everything?

I disagree that we both worry about everything. Our roles in the family are different, and so we worry about the things that are in our spheres. And it becomes difficult for us to communicate in a way where we can find alignment on what are the most important worries.

What the. I'm getting lost. Too much talk about worrying. I got to get you guys out of this worry sinkhole. Freaking philosophizing about my frameworks of worrying about worrying. No way. Enough of this. That's why you guys came to me. And also, are you seeing a therapist?

We're currently seeing a therapist, but in the context of our eldest son who's having some emotional issues.

Ah, okay. It's kind of an interesting manifestation of focusing on your son, which I totally get. But also, what about the two of you?

Yeah, the two of you, who I.

Would argue might be the most important in this entire dynamic, is that relationship between the two of you not taking the time and effort to nurture that shows up downstream in your kids experiencing their best life. What do you think about that?

100%. I agree with that. And I think we need help on making time for each other and ourselves.

I need your help to keep creating these conversations with people all over the world where you can listen in. Do me a favor, hit subscribe. That helps us grow our channel and find more people whose conversations we can share with you. Something happened that really surprised me. It wasn't a huge argument. It wasn't some dramatic blowup. It was a trip to Walmart. Listen to how something as small as buying a laundry basket opened up a whole new view on their relationship dynamic.

I primarily do most of the grocery shopping. I am constantly thinking about what you will think about what I'm buying if it was too much or too little. I was at Walmart last week. We need an extra laundry basket. I was standing in the aisle and there's one that's $5 and there's ones that's $6. And I didn't think either of them was perfect. And I didn't want to come home with one that was not perfect and have her make a judgment over what I bought. So I didn't buy a $5 or $6 laundry basket because of her potential judgment.

Perfect kids, perfect house, perfect time in the park, perfect laundry basket. Is there a pattern?

I see the character that we are building right now. An anal type. A mom who can't sit down and has to micromanage everything and doesn't trust anybody to do anything except her. And she's burnt out because she doesn't ask for help and doesn't let other people help her.

Okay, okay. Wow, that was that, like, rolled off the tongue. Okay, now is that accurate?

I don't think it's accurate at all. I understand the fear that I might have an opinion about something, but he said, I'm going to go to Walmart. I'm going to get a laundry basket. I was like, cool. I don't care about the laundry basket. You also need to know, Ramit, that this laundry basket is tied to his notion document about how to change our laundry setup.

You are weaponizing the tropes of this podcast against me. You know that you will get ramit on your side if you mention the we have a notion document because that's the easiest way to collaborate on something.

Can I pause things for a second? So I don't think the point of this podcast is to, like, win ramit over the point. And the reason I do this is to try to talk to couples about money. And when we talk about money, of course, we end up talking about who we are and what our rich life really is. And always there is a disparity between what we say our rich life is and what we are actually doing. And guess what? There's nothing wrong with that. That's being human. We all say we should call our mom more and go to the gym more and eat healthier, and we don't. And for me, the primary fascination is why. And can I help nudge you slightly in a little bit of the right direction? I have to say, I love how honest you both are. I love it. I don't care if you're talking about your laundry basket. The stakes seem so low. I agree. It's so absurd, and yet it's real. It's not about the laundry basket. We all know that. But it's an argument that compounds for 30 years, and in your case, there's extra fuel behind it because you had something traumatic that happened to you. And I'm sure you know from other parents and families who have gone through something similar.

There's also the potential for it to.

Become a wedge that sets you apart. The reason that I want to talk about this laundry basket is it's a microcosm of your finances. Can we do something here? Let's flip it right now and let's come up with a new way of handling a purchase like the laundry basket. Here are the ground rules. Let's acknowledge that the laundry basket is so absurd that we're actually going to play because the stakes are low. And now I want you to come up with a solution. If you could wave a magic wand and figure out a better way of handling the, quote, laundry basket, what would you do?

A way we would handle the laundry basket and similar purchases is for me to say, hey, you love going to the store and buying stuff for the house and groceries and all of those things that I do not like to do at all. And it's awesome that you know how to do those things, so go for it. I don't need to be involved. And even if I don't like it, whatever my opinion is, is not a value judgment of you and your worth at all.

I don't want to hear an opinion because an opinion is a judgment to me. And so I either want you to engage with me in what I'm trying to do and work with me, or just not even talk about it because it makes me very, like, uncomfortable and makes me feel just not accepted.

Okay, do you all think that's a good solution? And do you think you could follow that solution?

My only question is, if you don't want to hear an opinion, what if it's a positive? I'm like, this is awesome. Thanks for doing this.

That would be great.

Okay.

And maybe sometimes you should just. You should just say that even if you don't think it.

Do you all lie to your kids?

No.

No. What the.

Yes, we do. Yeah.

I love lying to kids.

I need to define lie.

All right, hold on. We need to talk about this. Indians love to lie to kids. Like, they love it.

Really?

They'll tell them, like, if you don't stop crying, I'm gonna put you in the back of the car and take you to the police station. They'll put you in jail. They actually take them in the car. Sometimes they literally will start driving, and the kids are like. And then those kids dominate spelling bees later in life. How does it happen? You gotta lie to these kids.

I know all these, like, white people.

Are going to be listening to this podcast. Ramit Sethi. So unethical. Doesn't know anything about parenting. Just keep it to yourself. Sometimes it's cool to lie to each other. Why not? I love your hair. I love that pink laundry basket. Who gives a. What does it cost you? What do you guys think?

I'm totally.

I agree.

I agree.

Oh, both agreeing. You know, usually when people finish this podcast, I give them a challenge about do this, do that. Today's challenge is lie to each other in a positive way. Okay, that's it. And you go, wait a minute. That actually, like, really helped. And then guess what? Over time, by doing the action that you want, you might actually come to find that you actually feel good doing it. And best of all, it might actually come true. I do love that purchase you made something I never would have even thought of. And it actually tastes so good or helps our family. Amazing. Okay.

How fascinating is this moment of choosing a laundry basket? It really reveals something deeper. Will's hesitation isn't about $5 versus $6. It's a fear of judgment from Anna, whose approval matters deeply to him. It's not about household purchases. It's more about trust between the two. And until they trust each other's intentions, even these tiny little decisions feel almost existential. But you can tell they're starting to see it. They're showing up, they're laughing together. They're being honest with each other. They're willing to experiment. That is progress. And I want to say something to some of the commenters. Oh, break up. You should run. I see this all the time in my comments. Do you understand how difficult it is to come on a show like this and share some of these intimate moments? I am not looking for people to go from A to Z in one conversation with me. I'm looking for them to go from A to B. A to B is huge. Just going A to B means that you realize, oh, there's a problem here. Oh, I can do better. Oh, I want us to do better. And I'm willing to try just one little thing. So please understand the courage that my guests show when they come on here. Recognize issues and then start to make small steps. Small steps turn into big ones. Now, speaking of small steps, we are going to look at their conscious spending plan. And trust me, the advice I give them is not what you're expecting. You know, when I started my blog, I had no clue what it would eventually become. Yes, I wanted to grow it, but I was also a college student running a blog for free out of my college dorm room. That's why, years later, I made a rule for myself. If my blog earned the same amount as my day job for three months in a row, I would consider going full time. Well, it took a while, but eventually it happened and I'm so glad it did. Starting a business totally changed my life. And if becoming an entrepreneur is your dream, you can get started faster with this episode's sponsor, Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world, including household brands like Mattel and Gymshark. They help you handle anything from website design, managing inventory, customer service, global shipping, all in one place. And if you're looking to grow your business internationally, Shopify has global selling tools. If you sell more in person, Shopify's award winning point of sale connects your online and offline sales all in one place. With 99.99% uptime and the best converting checkout on the planet, you'll never miss a sale again. Only with Shopify, get all the big stuff for your small business. Right? With Shopify Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com ramit. Go to shopify.com ramit shopify.comit let's see.

Will, can you read off the word in bold and the number in full next to it for this entire box?

Assets, $654,004. Investments, $366,825. Savings, $188,884. Debt, $495,000. Total net worth, $714,713.

What do y' all think of those numbers?

Good. Could be better.

Okay, I agree. Not bad. Could be better.

Okay. All right, that's fair. Let's continue here. Anna, read your gross combined monthly income, please.

Gross combined monthly income is $15,566.

Okay, cool.

So that's $186,000. Did you all know that?

Kind of. But Anna's income is new from this month.

You made $2,983. Let's just round up to 3,000. That's an extra $36,000 a year gross. If you just continue. That's. That's quite amazing. What do you think about that?

I think it's amazing, too. I am very focused on getting the next contract and making that 70,000.

I know you. You're looking at it from what you used to earn, and I'm looking at it from somebody who as of recently earned zero. And you've now added $36,000 while being a mom of two, one child having serious health conditions. To me, amazing. But it's a great example of how we can all look at the same numbers and all see something completely different. Okay, let's continue going on here. Your fixed cost percentage, what is that number?

Anna, fixed costs are 84%.

What do you think of that?

Bad.

Okay.

Too high.

It is high. I agree. Let's keep going down. Your investments are at zero. Although I know you're doing some pre tax investment. How much are you investing, will, in your 401k?

It's a thousand dollars a month in a 401k. And then so. And then another, I think 750 in HSA.

All right, cool. So like 20,000 bucks or so per year. Fine.

Yeah.

And then your Savings are at zero. You're saving zero percent. Although I want to point out you have $188,000 in savings.

Yeah, yeah.

What. What's that reaction?

My parents were very savvy with their money and they have a lot of extra money. As they're approaching retirement and they want to use it to help us make their grandkids have a great life. And so they had some kind of insurance product that was in my name that was just sitting in cash. And we finally just ended up transferring it to us so that we can use it for our kids.

How much?

This was 55,000.

Do you feel like you have to apologize for your parents giving you this?

Like, five years ago, when we, like, just before we had our first child, we were both working.

We where our.

Our careers were really, like, heading in a really awesome trajectory. And now I feel like it's the opposite and like I'm back being a child again and they're providing money and they want to give it because they love their grandchildren and we're both only children. And so our kids have four grandparents who only care about them. And that's amazing. And so it just taking a little bit for me to adjust to that.

Yeah, your identity has to shift.

Yeah.

Just as Anna's identity, yours has had to shift. And it is hard. Yeah. It's the hardest thing there is. Anna, in your case, from being high achieving employee to still being high achieving and being mom who stayed at home for a while. That identity, incredibly difficult. Will also high earner who was planning to take care of his parents and now his parents are, quote, taking care of him or giving a $55,000 gift. Can I ask you guys a question one day? Do you want to hand some money to your kids? Yeah. Every single person I talk to, I want to create generational wealth. I want my kids to do better than I. And then when the minute they actually receive something from their parents, they're like, this is so uncomfortable. I'm stricken with anxiety. Does anybody not see how ridiculous this is?

It's a whole thing, and yet we.

Turn around and want to do the same thing to our kids.

In the past few weeks since they gave us this money, like, I've been thinking about that and I was thinking about the same thing, like, oh, well, I would do that for our kids. But like you said, it's like my identity as like, this independent person who's like, making it for himself is like, at odds with getting this gift. And I'm only now really willing to grapple with that and integrate that into my current identity and make that okay and not feel shame about all of this.

Honestly, I love this journey that you're both going on. It is a journey of, yes, finances, but fundamentally is a journey of your identities individually and together. The Fact is, you're both individually successful, financially speaking. You have been successful together. But I know just from the stories you've told me about your life that you didn't do it alone. You had parents, you had a social infrastructure around. You probably went to pretty good schools. These are all things you cannot do yourself. Right. We may be successful individually, but we live, we are embedded in a society. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with saying, like, yeah, I work hard and I feel proud of what I've accomplished and I get help. Yeah, all those can be integrated. I know it's easier said than done. There's a huge stigma in America about accepting money from your parents. Although, ironically, every parent wants to give it to their kids. I'm on a quest to get rid of that. Let's be open about it. Shine a light on it. The only shame that should be felt here is why did your parents buy a insurance product? That's the real problem. And truthfully, it's better you all have this money now, when you actually need it, than 40 years from now. What are you going to spend it on then?

That's exactly what my mom spent.

Says your parents are very wise. That's actually quite progressive. You know, these days, wealthy people, they're smarter about distributing their money. They don't wait till they die. They know their kids need it in their 30s and 40s. It's much more valuable, especially in your situation. So if anything, will. I hear you. I. I simply would work hard on rewriting that script. And it sounds like you have. Yeah, okay. Yeah, right. Let's keep going down the list. Guilt free spending says 16% or 1,500 bucks a month. Is this accurate?

That only may be accurate going forward until this month. When Anna got paid for this first.

Tranche of her freelance, it was whatever's in Will's call.

Yeah, that's. And that's all the expenses are in my column. Because up until this month, like I had my paycheck was going into our joint account and covering everything.

All right, fine. You guys are disciplined. I believe you. A lot of times I don't believe people when they show me their guilt free spending. I'm like, this is. There's no way you're only spending this. But I love that you were responsive. Meaning when we had one income and we really had to buckle down, we cut from where we are supposed to cut from guilt free spending. And you spent effectively nothing. It's good to see it here. I'm going to go out on a limb and say, I don't think you've spent fifteen hundred dollars this month on guilt free spending. True.

Absolutely true. We've not.

Yeah, exactly. Y' all very good at intellectually putting it on the csp, but you haven't gone out to a nice dinner, huh?

No.

Is there a world where the two of you would go out to dinner?

We want there to be. Yes.

In the next two weeks. What if I challenged you to go out to dinner, the two of you? Would you both want to?

Yes.

Yeah. Who's going to plan it?

I want Anna to plan it. Because if I plan it, I'll get stressed about if it's the right restaurant or not.

I'm so glad you said that because I was so hopeful that you would say that you would plan it, because I plan everything else. Our life. So it would be really meaningful to me if you planned it.

Okay, okay, first of all, that was awesome. I love that. Both of you advocating for yourself. Amazing. And do you all see the similarity between the laundry basket and the restaurant choice? It's the same thing. So, Will, sounds like you agreed to choose the restaurant. Anna, what is your commitment?

I will be happy because he would get something that he likes and I would enjoy that.

I love that. All right, so cool. What I'm really going for here, it is responding to the changes in your life. Anna, you are now earning $3,000 a month, which is awesome. And should you save and should we talk about your fixed costs? Of course, yes, we'll do that. But also, can we step back from survival mode and adjust? We can adjust one degree at a time. That's okay. It's totally up to the two of you how you want to adjust. But. But let's adjust. Yeah. Okay. Let's go back to the csp. I want to talk about the fixed costs. We're at 84% here.

Yeah.

Let's take a look at what's going on. You have a mortgage for 3,700 bucks. The mortgage was more reasonable when you had two incomes. And now that it's one income, it has become proportionally much higher. Is that right?

Yeah.

So honestly, it's not the house, it's childcare.

Yeah.

Childcare is incredibly expensive. It's 2,500 bucks. I'm going to assume that you've looked around and this is the best option for the two of you.

Oh, yes.

Okay, fine. So we have to have this cost in here. Let's keep it. We'll work the rest around it.

Yeah. And the gift for My parents. We'll just use that to pay for childcare for the next year.

Great.

And that eliminates that for this year.

Roughly $30,000 a year. And your parents gave you 55,000. All right, Anna, any comments on that? It looked like you wanted to say something.

I'm not super convinced that's the best use of like a lump of cash. I. I actually wonder if it would be better if we invested a decent amount of it and just kind of kept being tight each month so that we could make up for some lost 401k investment time.

Is there an optimizer in the room here? Someone who's going, hey, we have two kids, one of whom has a serious heart condition. We need to invest all this money in our 30s even though we've already invested $366,000?

Yes.

Anna, how do you know you're behind? I mean, I know you are quote behind compared to what you used to make, but like, are you behind?

If I compare our net worth to other people with our similar backgrounds, we are behind.

Oh, who would those people be? Can you just tell me the name of their kid who has a congenital heart condition? You tell me that.

No, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about people that we went to school with and grew up in the same upper middle class.

It's really funny because we all hear about comparing ourselves to the Joneses and we're like, so stupid. I would never. And then we all do exactly that. It's a saying for a reason. We can't help ourselves. We are social animals. We compare ourselves to others. I get that. I'm not going to tell you to stop comparing yourself because it's pointless. You're still going to, no matter what I say. But I will add a layer on which is comparing where we are today to the rich life that we want to lead today. And tomorrow, a rich life could be taking your kids to the park and playing with them. Whether it's checking the box off or not. You're outside, you're playing with the kids. Is that part of a rich life for you, Anna?

Yes, it's a small part of the rich life for me.

Great. Give me the bigger part. What is it for you today?

My rich life today is feeling excited about living each day and feeling secure in our decisions, feeling aligned as a couple and confident as parents. And it would also include more frequent, like, self care stuff, like manicures and hair stuff, and time with girlfriends. Time to invest in my nonprofit work and engaging in the heart, community and sustaining connections there. I still think I'm getting off track. I don't know. I've been so focused on rich life of the future that I'm hard. It's hard for me to do it for now.

Yeah, it's hard. That's a really good insight. Articulating what your rich life is doesn't happen perfectly the first time. It's like asking a kid to draw something. They suck. They don't have any skills. They don't know how to do it. But that's not the point. The point is they just put a pencil to paper and they're trying it. Like, truthfully, I don't know any parent who would be able to do all of the things you said. It's awesome. I don't mind getting it all out on paper. Let's do it one more time. And this time I'm going to give you a little constraint. I think constraints help you. Three things, just three, that would be part of your rich life today. One of them has to include your kids. One of them has to include Will, and the third one is totally up to you.

Okay. Going on a walk with me and just the kids or playing outside with them with Will. It would be that after bedtime is done, we have a few minutes sitting together and, like, talking without all of the noise of life and social media and the Internet and the news and all that. And then time for myself would be extra time in the morning to get ready instead of just throwing clothes on. So, like, I actually feel good about what I'm wearing and what my hair and face look like. No matter what is happening that day.

How'D it feel to say those three things?

It felt good to say those three things. It also feels kind of vulnerable to be like, oh, like, you don't get ready every day.

I love that. I think a lot of people, parents listening to this are like, that's me. Like, every day. And I do think it was incredibly courageous of you to say, I want to have some time in the morning for myself, regardless of what I'm doing that day. That's awesome. That doesn't seem outrageous to me. You're not asking to fly on some private jet all the. It's like, yes, let's figure out a way to make that happen. Okay, great. Will, how did it feel to hear Anna say those things? Does that not, like, make you excited?

Yeah, it does, because she doesn't put herself first. And I want to support her and do that.

Love it. Some of this is wanting the best for yourself and your partner. Part of it is recharacterizing what best means. Best doesn't always mean the most expensive. Best doesn't always mean the highest achieving. Sometimes best is just a thing that fits you and your stage of life. The best. Anyway, these are things that a good therapist can help you work through and I would encourage you to do it.

I agree.

Yeah, I agree too. That feels correct and good.

Love it.

For the vast majority of couples who are spending more than they make every month, they're in a huge, huge red flag position. But once in a while, I will meet a couple who is spending more than they make on a given month or even for months at a time and I say keep doing it. Why would I, Ramit Sethi, say that? Well, because sometimes they have saved enough that they can afford to do that for a while. Sometimes they're in an extraordinary situation where they absolutely have to do that and they can fix things later. That's what's going on right now. They planned and this advice works for them because they built up a sizable reserve fund. They actually didn't even realize how well they planned for it. My job is to help them see that and to act accordingly. I'm reminded of what happened during COVID when a number of people had major, major emergency funds and they would write me saying, should I use my emergency fund? I'm really nervous about. I'm like, what the people are literally dying. This is the time to use your emergency fund, stay home from work or get your parents medical care or safety. Emergency funds are meant to be used in an emergency. Now the bigger question here is not just about numbers, it's about really defining what's enough. I can tell they're going to earn more money, and it is my job to help them zoom out and see the big picture. After the break, we're going to dive into the question of Enough.

My podcast recently started using Notion, this episode's sponsor. As the podcast has evolved, the workload has increased, meaning we need to keep on top of things like social media content, newsletter callouts, VO recordings, and writing ads, including the one listening to right now. My team loves using Notion to handle all of this, and if you're looking for a flexible workspace for your next project, you should check it out. Notion combines your notes, documents and projects into one space that's simple and beautifully designed. Unlike other specialized tools that have you bouncing between tons of different apps, Notion is seamlessly flexible, making it easy to get to work. The fully integrated Notion AI Helps you work faster, rev write better, and think bigger, doing tasks that normally take you hours in just seconds. Notion is used by over half of Fortune 500 companies, and my podcast team loves using it to organize our production calendar, keep up with projects, make sure nothing slips through the cracks. Try Notion for free when you go to notion.com ramit that's all lowercase letters, notion.com ramit to try the powerful, easy to use Notion AI today. And when you use our link, you're supporting our show. That's notion.com ramit have you calculated how much money you're gonna have at retirement, Anna?

Yes.

How much?

I don't remember, but I think that the calculation is around 5.6 million.

Will is furiously shaking his head no. Will, what number do you know?

I think it's about 3.4. I think the number that Anna's quoting is before our income changed.

I'm actually pleasantly surprised that you have run the numbers. A lot of times when I talk to people who are worrying constantly, they don't even run the numbers. Let's just look at the CSP again because we gotta nail these numbers. You have $188,000 in savings, which, by the way, is like well over a year. The rest of your fixed costs are quite nominal. I just want to point out your groceries are at less than 800 bucks. Your subscriptions are $31. There's nothing else you're spending on except your mortgage and your childcare. Those are the two primary things. Your investments. Even though it says zero, you are investing about 18,000 or so, ballpark. And your savings are at zero, which I understand. And then you do have 1500 bucks a month leftover for guilt free spending, which is 16%. Of course, that's new. You're not spending it yet. But we know that you're going to try to go and do a date night. We got to understand if you have enough or not. So you currently have $366,000. We're going to plug it into the calculator. How many years?

Like 30 something.

Well, how old are you? 37.

So 28 years?

Yeah.

@ least.

Yeah. All right, let's just say that. And then you're adding $18,000 a year for now. What's that number right.

There? 3.89.

Million. 3.8 million. What do y' all think about.

That? Way too.

Low. It's a lot of.

Money. Whoa. Will says that's a lot of money and it goes way too little. All right, well, how much is.

Enough? We need in the 5 to 6 range to have a comfortable annual.

Withdrawals. Okay. Will you agree or.

No? It is a lot of money, but I agree that if we wanted to maintain our current spending levels, it's not.

Enough. Well, you're not going to have childcare forever. Your house is going to theoretically be paid off. Isn't that like almost all of your fixed costs?

Yeah.

Yes. Yeah. Listen, high earners don't want to compromise. I wouldn't in your position either. I'm like, I'm not trying to live on $130,000 when I'm.

65.

That.

Exactly. I want options. Yeah, yeah. However, high achievers can also only live for the future and not live for today. I'm going to pose a hypothetical to you. What if you took that $18,000 a year that you're currently investing and you actually just spent it for your family? Let's look right now it's 3.8 million. That's with $18,000 a year. If we drop the $18,000 off, the number drops to 2.4 million. I agree. That's a big drop. Not sustainable. So let's do this. Let's say that for one year in this hypothetical, you did not contribute the 18,000, you'd have 3.6 million instead of 3.8 million. What do you take away from that.

Anna? I don't think it's.

Significant. Yeah, the money compounds. Of course, we all know that at the end, 18,000 in a year turns into relatively lot 25, 30 years from now. But also sometimes, especially with young parents, that money is more valuable now. Like way more valuable. And what if that 18,000 could be used to fix some deck issue that you've all been arguing about for two years? Like what if. Wow, a lot of smiles around the room. Suddenly everybody wants to dip into their 401k. Hey, a 401k fix this deck. What about the idea of taking the money in your savings account and investing it because we're losing money right now. You all want to do that? Let's do, let's. Oh, they're both nodding yes. Yes, we want to do it. So what do we want to do.

Here? We need about 50k for a 6 month emergency fund. That's. We have to have.

That. Okay, so you have $155,000 in savings. You told me that 50k you need for an emergency fund. So let's just take 55 out, put that aside. You have 100k left. Your child care costs are like $3,000 a month. Or 36,000 a year. Out of 100k, how much do you want to.

Invest? So let's say.

50,000. Okay, so 50,000, meaning you would have a little bit over a year's worth of childcare costs in your savings. All right, fine. So instead of 366, we're going to do $416,000 is what you're starting with. And what is that number you see at the.

Bottom? 4.2.

Million. Instead of $3,800,000, it's 4,200,000. What do you make of.

That? Not as big of a change as I would think. Yeah, yeah, because it's like 50,000 turns into.

400,000.

Yeah. Over that many years. That's less than I would have.

Imagined. There's two things I want to point out that I take away from this. First off, one time investments, of course, they compound. But what really moves the needle is consistent investing over a long period of time. That's the first. The second is honestly to make an extra $400,000 when I'm 60 something years old. I'd rather have that money in my savings account at this high intensity time as young parents with a lot of uncertainty in my family. What do you guys think of that? That's my approach. But I don't feel the need to optimize everything. Sometimes I want to have a little extra cash just to know that I can weather the.

Storm. Yeah, I, I agree with what you're saying. Having extra in savings now means it covers if I don't renew a.

Contract, if he loses his job, and what happens next year with childcare? Yeah, right now at least you have the breathing space. Why put yourself in a position where in December you both are.

Scrambling. You're like, we have no money.

Left, no cash flow because of a decision you made several months ago. Why not give yourself a little bit of Runway? And the trade off is you're losing $50,000 compounded over 30.

Years. Yeah, but we're behind on retirement. I need to see that retirement number getting into the $6 million range. It's very hard for me to accept what you're saying without a way to get.

There. Okay, fine, I, I'm with you. What I hear is again, and I love, I love the honesty. This is like so good. Anna's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, whatever. But like, get me to six. We can do it. What I'm saying is the approach to a rich life is not always going all in. I don't want for the two of you to Go all in on everything. I want you to be selective. So we know that you could take one year of 401k funds and use it for something if you want it, you don't have to, but it's in your toolbox now. Okay, we know that you could theoretically take $50,000 from savings and invest it. But at least from my perspective, I wouldn't do it because it's very risky. And I would rather have the money sitting in a savings account knowing that I'm going to need it next.

Year. Most people listening are not in Anna and Will's exact situation, but we have the ability to interpret and adapt it for our own lives. In fact, what's happening is actually extremely relevant to what's happening right now in America. This episode was recorded before Trump's new rounds of tariffs and sent the market spinning again. But even with all that major tumultuous moves in the market, my advice here does not change. Have money in your savings account. Keep investing. Yes, but make sure you have a large emergency fund. I'm currently recommending 12 months of an emergency fund. The only other time I recommended that large of a reserve was during COVID which I hope suggests to you how seriously I take the situation. Build that emergency fund up. If you can't get to 12 months right away, very few can start aiming for three then six. But build your emergency fund up. If you need it. You will be glad you have it. Now let's get back to Anna and Will. Listen as I show Anna how despite her reduced income, she can still help them hit their retirement.

Goals. Okay, so what else can you do? Well, you could earn more money. Shall we talk about.

That?

Yes. You have this consulting business that you recently started and how much did you earn from it last.

Month? This is my first time ever doing anything as a non full time employee. So it's brand new. I'm signed on for a project with a client and I'm earning $35,600 or something like.

That.

Huh? Over five. Five.

Months. Hold on. What the. Are we all getting lost in the details that you just earned a $35,000 project? Is that what I heard correct? Okay. What the. Round of applause. Does anyone else think, like, big pat on the back time? This.

Cool? Yes, I actually, I'm really glad you're saying that because yesterday I saw the marketing for my project on the client's website and I sent a text to Will and I was like, I'm really proud of myself that I did.

This. Yeah, I love that. Okay. Great job. Amazing. We teach this in our earn 1k program is like how to take the skills you already have and earn money on the side. And people often start off making an extra thousand dollars a month, and then if they want, they can turn it up to 2, 5, 10, 000 or more. You got a $35,000 project, which is incredible. Do you think you will continue doing this and maybe start earning more with this freelance.

Business? That's a great question. I want to, I hope, is that the client will sign on for a second year. The leap is how do I get another client? Ultimately, in these good times with our family, I'm scaling up. I'm exceeding the salary I was making as a full time. And then I can say no to things if I need.

To. You want some.

Help?

Yes. Okay. I'll send you my earn 1k program. All right. I'll give you access to it. Take your idea that you've already seen. The marketplace wants will help you slice and dice it so you can understand why it worked, where to find other people like this client, how to charge, how to scale it, and then how to turn it into something where you control how much money you make. Okay, awesome. Let's plug in some numbers just to see how it might affect the finances. Let's say, Anna, that you're able to make. Let's be conservative here. How much are you going to be able to make per.

Month? What I currently have listed. Which is what? About three grand? You could double that, and I think that would be.

Conservative. Okay, six grand per month. Love it. Okay, how much would we be able to invest of that money? Let's remember things like.

Taxes. At least a thousand of it. If not.

1500. I think that's right. Let's say a thousand. So we got $30,000 a year, right. 18 of will plus 12 of yours, that's $30,000 a year. Shall we take a look at how it changes the numbers? Yeah. What's that number down.

There?

4.8. You just went up a million dollars. Yeah, just with a thousand dollars. That's pretty good. What do y' all think? Yeah.

Okay. It's really.

Good.

Awesome. I actually think, by the way, 4.8 is pretty freaking good. Have you all calculated what the 4% on that.