“I saved $5k for an engagement ring. She secretly took the money”

How do you handle your finances in a relationship? How do they change when you combine them as a couple? I get this question all the time. Couples show up, the money is separate. Someone's got one account over here. They're not sure exactly how to combine their money. This month on November 21st I'm hosting a live call. It's called Single versus Couple Finances. What stays the same and what changes? And you can only get access to this call if you're in my money coaching program. Every month I host a 90 minute group coaching call just for money coaching members. In these calls I go deep on specific tactics, big wins and hidden psychology around taking control of your money. And of course I do Q and A. So the only way to get your question answered is in these money coaching calls. To attend this live call, single versus couples finances join money coaching@iwt.com money coaching and I got to tell you, I love this program. I love being able to work with you every single month and keep you focused for at least 90 minutes a month on living your rich life. Iwt.com moneycoaching and I will see you on Thursday, November 21st. On today's episode, I pretty much got.

Myself in a huge student loan debt.

I don't have debt like that so seeing that now it's just like what do I here?

Meet 33 year old Michelle and 31 year old Matt. They've dating for seven years and they are stuck in relationship limbo.

Pretty shocking.

Just see the amount of bills that she has per month compared to what I have to pay per month.

Michelle is a nurse with a good income but she has a mountain of debt that includes credit cards, personal loan and student loans.

Coming here is going to be the only shot I have because I literally don't even understand why I do it.

Matt works in finance. To him money is simple. He just follows his system.

She just needs to be more responsible and held accountable.

Yet despite despite Matt's health, Michelle is paralyzed by the size of her debt. She's worried Matt is going to leave her.

I'm worried that he's going to realize that like he can't trust me with money and that he doesn't see a future with me because I'm financially irresponsible.

Can I help Michelle understand the root of her money problems so she can turn this around and create a rich life with Matt?

Have you ever taken money from him?

I've got Michelle and Matthew CSP in front of me getting ready for our conversation. Let's take a look, 0 assets. $47,000 in investments, 263k in debt. Since they don't have any assets, it's probably not a mortgage. It's likely student loans. Maybe there's some credit card debt, maybe a car loan. Moving down to income, Michelle makes a lot more than Matthew. But as I move down the fixed costs, I can see Michelle's debt payment is $2,542, while Matthews is only $136. Probably suggesting that the bulk of that $263,000 debt is Michelle's.

Hmm.

What's going on here? Okay, overall, Matthew's numbers seem fine. Michelle's numbers are a different story. Investments pretty low. Miscellaneous spending is high. Could be that she's overspending. It seems like it. That's interesting. Let's see what's going on on their application. We don't live together. We had to move back home because we couldn't afford it. He doesn't trust me with money. I'm very scared he won't trust me to have kids with me. We aren't engaged and it's holding our future back from moving forward. I want to feel some self worth. Looks like there are a lot of factors at play. Pretty big stakes in terms of moving the relationship forward, which is stagnant because of money. We're talking about marriage, we're talking about kids. I think this is going to be a pretty substantive discussion. Let's meet Michelle and Matthew.

You said in one podcast, if psychologically you don't understand why you're doing it, you're going to continue doing it and like the patterns with money. And I'm literally in that position where, like, I have no excuses for myself anymore because I don't know why. It's so big and it's so overwhelming and it's like it's even bigger than me that I can't even realize it.

What do you mean? Why?

Like, my relationship with money.

What is your relationship with money?

It's not good. It's not really existent. I've worked since such a young age. I have no money saved. I have a lot of debt. It's just not. It's not a healthy relationship. So when I signed up, I was like, I think you're really the only person that can help me. I want to pay off all my credit card debt, pay off all those debts first, and then also pay off my student loans. I feel like I'm constantly in debt to people because of my mistakes, and I'm. I just don't want to owe anyone anything. I'm worried that he's going to realize that, like he can't trust me with money and that he doesn't see a future with me because I'm financially irresponsible.

Has anyone ever told you that you can pay off your debt? No one.

Right.

You can. Let's talk about money in your relationship. So how long have you been together?

I would say about seven years.

Okay. And I understand previously you lived together and right now you're not. How long did you live together before you both moved in with your parents?

So we moved in together in like November of 2022 and then we moved out in January of this year.

Okay. So basically a little over a year living together. What happened that caused you to move out?

We came to the realization that we'll just save money living at our parents house and then hopefully one day be able to afford to buy a condo or a house or an apartment.

We were spending a lot like trying to fix the place, but it was like already kind of run down.

And were you both okay moving back to your parents?

No, I wasn't.

Okay. Why?

Because I knew that it was gonna suck.

And for me they're like my roommates now, but I have no problems with them and they accept me for, you know, being able to come back. They're always trying to help me and.

Okay, cool. So you moved out, you moved back to your parents. So it was you and your mom and my sister. Oh, okay. And living situation wise, how is it.

The three of us? Yeah, it sucks.

Oh, how come?

Because I feel like I'm the mom, so I'm the one that cooks. I'm also the one that spends at the grocery store the most because of that. And so that's one thing. I also feel like I'm just like the one that they go to for everything. Like it just always feels like I'm responsible for like my two kids, like my mom and my sister.

You ever have a problem saying no in your life? Oh, yeah, A lot of things, right?

Yeah.

Personal? Yes. Professional?

Oh yeah.

Okay.

She says no to me, no problem.

Yeah. Is that true?

No.

Sometimes. I. I recently realized that I am a people pleaser.

You recently realized? I realized it in five seconds. What do you mean you just recently realized it?

I remember that it was something to do with like my. I don't know if it was with my, my mom, like always doing favors for them or if it was with my sister where I even like sometimes put it before even like doing something With Matt, I'll even be like, no, I have to do this for them. And if my sister was having, like, she got out of a breakup and it really was a lot on her, I would always be there for her instead of, like, leaving to his house, which is, like, my spa, like, safe space.

It's interesting. The space that the two of you had together was your safe space, even though the rental was not particularly great. Right.

Honestly, wherever he is, it's my safe space. Wow.

That's pretty much the nicest thing you can hear.

Very nice. Thank you.

And yet you moved back into this tumultuous household, where you are de facto the person who cooks and manages all the responsibility. What do you make of that?

I don't put myself first.

Why?

I don't find myself worthy. I feel like when I do these things that they want me to do or if it makes their life easier, that makes me worthy, I guess. Like, it gives me a sense of worthy.

Has a chance to. Maybe if I cook this one dinner, maybe if I listen to my sister's challenges with her relationship, maybe if I do this and that and this, then.

They will respect me. Yeah.

Do they?

No.

Maybe if you give it 10 more years.

Yeah.

What do you think?

Yeah.

Or maybe there's a completely different way to look at this whole situation, because while you have put yourself back in that situation, what have you taken yourself out of?

My future with Matt.

Yeah.

And meanwhile, what's going on with your finances as you moved in? Presumably, you're saving a lot of money, right? No. Not paying rent anymore, are you?

I. I am.

Oh.

What? How? Who are you paying rent to?

My dad.

Okay. How much are you paying?

360. 3.

60. What were you paying when you and Matt were splitting it?

It was like, 650.

What?

Hold on.

Like, when people move in with their parents, I have no problem people moving with their parents, But I'm like, cool, you're gonna save, like, a thousand bucks a month or 2,000 bucks a month. So saving 300 bucks a month, and now you're cooking, doing all this stuff. Are you basically losing money now, living with your family?

100%.

This doesn't make any sense to me. Not only the relationship, the financial part of it.

Yeah.

What the hell's going on right now?

Yeah, I'm not sure. I didn't know she was losing money.

Yeah, I feel like I'm always losing money being there.

Did you hear what Michelle just said? She moved back in with her family to save money, but she's actually Losing money every month now, and Matt didn't even know. This is a very telling example of how money is not simply about numbers. So many of us make financial decisions because we feel we should. We feel we should save money. So we simply jump from one thing to another. I need to move back in with my parents. I need to buy a house. I should cut back on brunch. We are missing one essential thing. Actually making big financial decisions using real numbers. And if you really listen, you hear why. Did you hear the words Michelle used to describe herself? I'm a people pleaser. I don't find myself worthy. Matt is my safe space. She knows something is wrong, but without knowing how to probe into it, she defaults to her worldview of not trusting herself, leading to her moving back in with her parents. I'm curious to learn more. So let's get back to how they talk about money in their relationship.

When was the first time you had a real conversation about money?

I don't think we've ever had a.

Conversation about money in seven years.

She doesn't really like talking about that.

Okay.

And then I also don't push her on it because she'll be writing in a planner, let's say, of all her bills. I'll go over to take a peek. And she's like, no, no, no, stop. Don't look. I do keep peeking, but it's always the same thing.

You go across the room and you pull out your binoculars. You go, what? What's on that?

Like, set up a mirror behind her.

Why do you think that Michelle says no, no, no about you looking at her finances?

Probably because she's embarrassed.

Yeah, I am. I've even told him I'm not ready to show you. Even though it's been seven years. It wasn't until recently, honestly, that we had this coming up, that I actually was upfront about it in general.

You sat down and talked about the numbers.

We didn't sit down and talk.

She filled out the csp and then that's where I saw the number.

First time?

Yes.

What was that like for you? Pretty shocking.

Just see the amount of bills that she has per month compared to what I have to pay per month.

And what was it like for you to do the csp?

Honestly, it was very overwhelming. It was, like, depressing at the same time. Just because I saw, like, the debt ratio and it was literally all mine. It's just kind of like a letdown. I don't know where I went wrong with everything or I just never started. Right. I Guess. But it's just, like, a letdown. Especially now that I have, like, my, you know, adult job. And knowing that I make decent money and knowing that I have nothing to show for it is just, like. It just. It just puts me down.

Honestly, it's kind of interesting the way that you talk about money. Because you're early 30s, right?

33.

In a way, it's like you're talking about money like you're 75 years old. Like, oh, I just wasted my life. I got nothing to show for it. But when I look at it, I go, you're sort of at the beginning of your career. I'm seeing a young woman who has a professional career as a nurse, maybe didn't learn about money. And you're starting off. What do you think about the difference in our perspective?

I wish I would think of it like that a little more because I'd be a lot easier on myself, maybe a little more forgiving for the mistakes I've done. I feel like my own worst enemy when it comes to money. Especially, like, it's something. It's so embarrassing and so shameful. Like, I feel like I just carry, like, you know, like, this Scarlet Letter with money. It's something that, like, takes a toll on me, and I feel like I judge myself based on it.

Can you read back some of those words you just said to me? Did you catch them? Scarlet Letter. Forgiveness.

Yeah.

Worst enemy. Not even. Worst critic. Worst enemy. What else did you say?

Shame. The main one was the Scarlet Letter. I thought that was pretty interesting.

What do you think about that?

Pretty brutal to compare yourself to that.

Talk to yourself a lot like that about money.

Yeah.

And other things in life, too.

Yeah.

And then, Matt, do you talk to yourself like that about money?

No. I have, like, a good system, I think, where I just, you know, get paid, pay my bills, and then whatever's left over is what I either invest or, you know, kind of save.

Quite a different perspective on money, right? Shame, Judgment. Scarlet Letter. And then, Matt, you use the word system doesn't seem emotional to you at all? So how did the two of you relate about money?

We don't. Every time I'd watch the show on, when it was on Netflix, I would cry just because it's so relatable. They all said stuff that I've said, and to him, he's just like, no, well, it's not that hard. You just have to pay it. And I'm always like, it's not that easy.

Money's different. Why?

I honestly have no idea. I'm definitely irresponsible with it.

Notice the pattern of Michelle avoiding money conversations and ignoring money herself. When she finally confronts it, she immediately uses words of deep shame and guilt. You can see this so often in people's relationship. For example, with food, it's not as simple as telling them, just eat less or just spend less. When you truly understand the psychology involved, hearing someone talk about themselves like this always makes me sad. Think about it. Most of us would never, ever talk about our friends like this. We would never call our husbands or wives these words. Yet some of us use these words with ourselves over and over for years, and we really start to believe it.

She just needs to be more responsible and held accountable for herself.

I always let bills pile up. And because an insurance lapse, I guess that happened back in April, I had to give my registration, like, in. And so technically it was suspended. And so now I technically don't have it. Like, I can't drive it for two months because of that.

Okay, so what do you do?

Literally rely on my parents taking me somewhere, like, to my work.

Okay.

I don't go anywhere or him getting me.

It's.

It's only been a week with it. You know, I'm responsible for, like, people's lives at, you know, as my profession. And then it's like, hey, mom, can you get me from work?

It's just kind of like, I'm not laughing at you.

No, I mean, it sucks.

But let's get to the root of why it happened. You didn't file a registration, why there.

Wasn'T enough funds, because I spent it in other stuff that I shouldn't have been.

Which was what?

Food Ordering Uber eats. When I get home from work, I don't want to cook anything. And then living at home, like, like I said, my mom doesn't cook, so nobody's cooking for me. So just wanting to order something quick.

What do you get?

It's really depending. Maybe diner food.

You order a diner food to be delivered. I can't think of a worse meal. What do you get?

Pancakes.

That does sound pretty good. Okay.

Or a burger. If I can't make up my mind, it's pancakes and French toast.

And, like, how much does this cost? I do love understanding the total amount because, you know, when you order like a Chipotle bowl or something, it's like, I don't know, 13 bucks. And then if you get it delivered, it's like $37. But I'm like, okay, it makes sense. I'm not blaming anybody. Somebody needs to be paid for that. How much does your pancakes cost when you get it delivered?

About like 20 with delivery and everything? Probably 20.

20 bucks?

24, 24, 24, 25.

Like with the tip and everything for like two pancakes?

Yeah, pretty much.

Does anyone else find this funny?

No.

$24 for two pancakes. I know, all right?

And it's all because I get home so tired I don't want to make it for myself.

We once ran a pilot program on food and fitness. We hired a full time personal trainer and we helped people lose weight and put on muscle. And some people changed their entire lives using that program. But I have to tell you, the psychology of food and weight that we learned was absolutely shocking. For example, we had a student who would binge late at night and they would describe in vivid detail how they would be eating snacks at the kitchen counter, knowing they shouldn't be and hating themselves for every second of it. That's the word they used. Hating themselves. But they just couldn't bring themselves to stop. We asked them why they did it, and they said the same thing. Michelle said, it's dumb. I know I shouldn't. I guess I just can't get control of myself. I'm irresponsible. And we said, no, we don't believe any of that. And we pushed them to go deeper, using the five whys technique. It turned out they were hungry because they'd skipped lunch. Why? Because they didn't pack a lunch. Why? Because they were late out the door that morning. Why? Because they had stayed up the night before watching Netflix. They were blaming themselves for this massive moral defect. But what we found was something much simpler and behavioral. You need to set a time to go to sleep and follow it. Now, food, of course, has so many different reasons for why we behave the way we do. It's not often as simple as this. There are often much deeper issues, and for those, I would highly recommend speaking to a trained specialist. But today, do you see the connection? And do you see how I'm doing? The same thing here with Michelle. She let her insurance lapse. Why? Because she didn't have enough money. Why? Because she orders from doordash. Why? And so on. Sometimes the best thing you can do is to stop assigning moral judgments to to yourself and instead treat your behavior like a scientist. What am I doing? Why do I do that? Why? Why? Why? You can learn more about how to use this approach in my program. Success triggers@iwt.com products.

Okay, so that's one. You get the $12 each pancakes fine. And then what other bills did you have?

My student loans. That's a huge chunk of it. And then I have my credit card debt. Huh? My credit card debt.

What's that for?

A lot of dumb stuff. Like a lot of shopping, a lot of Uber eats.

You said shopping. You shop a lot. And you said it calms me. What does that mean?

It just makes me feel like I'm not in the position that I actually.

Am, which is broke.

It distracts her from her life.

Have you helped her with her debt?

Yeah, I did. I co signed a loan for her.

What? How much?

It was.

It was like 15,000.

What was a loan for?

Consolidating.

Consolidating your debt.

Yeah, I'm not really sure what she did with that.

What?

Hold on.

What's happening right now? You co signed a loan for your girlfriend, right? And did you ask like, hey, maybe I might be open to it, but I need to see your finances and we need to make a plan. Did you say that?

I didn't see her finances or ask to make a plan. I just trusted her to, I guess, do the right thing. I guess I just thought she would know what she was doing.

What do you mean? She's had debt for, like, so long. She tells you about money all the time, right?

Well, I didn't know what kind of debt she was in. I didn't know the amount.

Y' all hearing this as you talk about it? What does it sound like to you?

We just need to talk more.

Oh, well, that's for sure. I mean, that's the bare minimum. I'm glad you're here. That's why sometimes people need me as an excuse to talk about money for the first time. But, like, do you see the alarm on my face?

Yeah.

Yeah. What do you think is going through my head right now?

Why would you trust her with that?

Yeah, why would you trust her? Why would you co sign a loan? And it's not just about you, Michelle. I'm not saying that you are untrustworthy. I am saying I wouldn't co sign almost anybody's loan.

Yeah.

And if I did, I'll be putting them through the most. I'd be like, read my book and I would quiz them of every freaking subchapter.

Explain this to me.

What about this? What happens if this happens?

I would make them work.

So to me, this speaks to a complete lack of relationship about money between the two of you. A lack of transparency and honesty. The fact that he did not know that you had even 20k of debt, much less 10 times that. And, Michelle, your inability to handle money. You took a loan to consolidate money and ended up in a worse place. Have you ever taken money from him?

Yep.

What happened?

When I wasn't working, he had money saved up in his safe. And since I really wasn't working because I was studying, I would, like, take, and then I would say I was going to replace. And, like, before he noticed, I would replace it. And then it just never happened. And then one day he went to go grab something from it, and I didn't even know how to tell him what happened. Matt.

It was just missing, and I was just really disappointed.

Did you say anything?

Yeah.

What. What was the conversation?

I mean, honestly, there wasn't conversation. It was actually silence. But it was honestly, like, I still live with that guilt so bad because I literally. He's never judged me about it. He's never, like, made me feel less of a person for even doing that. And I went and I, like, betrayed him.

Does this sound like a healthy relationship with money to the two of you?

It hurt. And I just lost trust.

You tell her that?

I don't think so.

You want to tell her right now?

I lost my trust with you and it hurt.

Oh, I'm sorry.

It was. It was going to be her. Her ring. That's what I was going to pay for her ring with. She's always asking, you know about ring, and that's the reason why she hasn't.

Gotten it yet, because I took the funds that he had for it. I get really scared that he's gonna question if he sees the future with me and even my ability to be like a parent because of that dumb stuff I've done.

I feel like right now we're opening up, kind of lifting the lid on something, and it feels treacherous. It feels dangerous. Does he want to stay with me? Does he think I'm going to be a bad parent? I'm going to guess that you have lifted the lid up, and this is so scary. You've just covered it right back up and pushed it away in the past.

This goes so much deeper than spending money on doordash pancakes. Michelle feels guilty about taking money from Matt's safe, as she should. We're talking about $5,000, which is a big deal. And now she's scared that he's not going to stick around to build a future together. But he hasn't expressed wanting to leave. If anything, he hasn't reacted angrily enough for what I would have expected. Can you imagine what this conversation would be like if the genders were reversed and a boyfriend stole from his girlfriend's safe. I see gender dynamics here. I see personal psychology. I see a common dynamic where someone continues to blame themselves, but after a while you start to say, okay, now what? You can blame yourself, but it's almost starting to seem like a defense mechanism. And the question is, what are you going to do about it? I want to explore Michelle's childhood so I can understand what sorts of money situations were modeled to her when she was growing up.

You ever felt good about money?

No.

If you didn't feel bad about money, what would you.