“I shouldn’t have to ask for $20 to get McDonalds for the kids”

It sounds weird saying it because I trust my wife, but when we first got into a relationship, she explained to me the problems and issues she's had with credit cards and her spending.

Do you trust her?

I feel like I can trust her. I'm gonna be honest, but it's to a limit.

I ran up too much credit card debt, so I had bad credit. Wasn't able to use any credit for years.

I've never really had credit card debt. I've never had it before. I've never had credit, for that matter. And so I see my balance up by hundreds of dollars that she's just been buying things. And I'm like, have you been using the card? Like, what are you using it on? You should ask me for the money to pay for this. I need her to be on the same page as me, to trust me, same way I want to trust her and kind of stop the arguments over the little things as small as McDonald's or whatever.

Meet Dhoni and Casey. Donnie's 30, Casey's 40, and they have three young children. Now, Donie used to be in credit card debt. So early on in their relationship, Casey took on the role of helping, and he became the money person in their relationship. But now that's causing problems as Doni stays at home with her children, and she has to text Casey if she wants to take the kids to McDonald's. Today you're going to hear lots of surprises, including surprises about money psychology. So let's begin my conversation with Doni and Casey.

About two weeks ago, I went to the grocery store and bought the groceries. I spent $60, and he wanted to actually pay for it. And then instead of it coming out.

Of my account, he wanted to pay for it. Out of his account instead of your account?

Yes.

Okay.

So I stay at home, and sometimes for me, going to the store is a break just from three children. So I take my youngest with me, and in that particular day, we both needed to go to the store. You know, it became like a disagreement. I was like, I'm still gonna go to the store. So I went and paid for it without him sending me, you know, the money or using his card. I just pay.

What do you mean sending?

I'm on his account, but I don't use the card. I use a different checking account. And some he'll send me money to my account.

How often does he send you money?

Whenever. Like, if I'm going to do something for the kids, he'll send it.

You'll say, hey, I'm taking them to McDonald's or whatever. And you say, like, send me 15 bucks.

Yes.

Okay.

He can say. He can say yes or no. Sometimes he'll say no.

What would be the last example of when you had this conversation? Like, where'd you take the kids that you talked to your husband about?

Probably was McDonald's. It gives me a break from not having to cook, and I get to take the kids somewhere, and they really enjoy it. They have a playground.

How much did you ask them to transfer?

No, I just say, we're gonna. We wanna go to. Can I take the kids to McDonald's? And he'll just send, you know, like, $20 or something. I like the coupon, so I use the app, and I have points, so normally I know about how much it's gonna be.

Got it. Okay. All right, Casey, I want to hear your perspective. I like this McDonald's example. Walk me through it from your perspective. You get what, a text message or. Or does Doni, like, come up to you and say, hey, I want to take the kids to McDonald's. How does it go?

Well, it usually goes, I get a text message that. That they want to go to McDonald's for the day, or she wants to get. She needs to get some things from the grocery store. So once she kind of gives me the rundown of what it is and the price for it, I will either just kind of like she says, give her the money for that to take care of that. So that's. That's pretty much has just been our arrangement. Just because I just feel like I need to. Like I said, I want to be able to know where everything's going.

So how do you decide if you're going to say yes or no?

You know, I honestly try to decide for the best of our family. In my mind, I want to make sure we're monitoring how much we're spending on each thing, because eating out has been an issue that we.

Hold on. Let me pause you right there. I can hear those kids in the background. How many you have? Three kids. How old are they?

Yes. Four, two and four months.

Wow. You got a handful. Okay, if we need to take a break? No problem at all. Just let me know.

Okay. Thank you.

All right. You got it. Three young kids. We'll make it work. We can be flexible. All right. All right. Casey, you said you're looking out for the best of the family. You said that sometimes eating out has been an issue. Okay, how do you decide if it's worth it? Like, if it's 20 bucks, 50 bucks. How are you making those decisions about that number?

And that's the thing. Having this responsibility of a family is fairly new to me, to both of us. And so I feel that I want my kids to have fun. I want them to have memories of exciting times, and I feel like I already spoiled them so much. I just want to make sure that we're making the right choices at the right time so that we're still ahead of all these payments or bills that are. That come regularly.

Just out of curiosity, I'm going to go out on a limb here, and guess what. You're not tracking your spending and investments, et cetera, very carefully, right?

Not.

Not. Not as much as I should.

Okay. You know how I knew that? It's because I asked you about the numbers, and your answer was about, I want to do right by my family. I don't want to spoil. It was a very qualitative answer when I'm just trying to talk about the numbers. So I don't mind it. We could work with that. Doni, you're staying at home, Is that right?

Correct.

All right. And, Kasey, are you the sole income earner for the family? Yes. Okay. And was that kind of the plan when the two of you met, that that was how it was going to shake out?

I would say once we had our first son, then yes.

Got it.

I want to be able to. It sounds weird saying it, because I trust my wife, but she's. When we first got into a relationship, before marriage and everything, she explained to me the problems and issues she's had with credit cards and her spending and just the situation it's put her in. And, you know, once we got married, I wanted to clear all that up because I've never really had credit card debt. I've never had it before. I've never had credit, for that matter. And so, you know, she would go to the store, shop. I would be at work. I'd be making our bill payments, and I see my balance up by hundreds of dollars that. That she's just been buying things, and I'm like, have you been using the card? Like, what are you using it on? And it's just, oh, we needed this. And that's when I'm explaining to her, you should ask me for the money to pay for this. Don't just use especially the credit cards for these purchases. And then not talking to me about it. I have the credit cards now. I had to get them back. She gave them to me. Because of that situation, taking on these new responsibilities, I Just felt the need that I needed to be in control of everything, to make sure we're secure and safe. And I just want to be able to trust her. I want us to have an account together. I need her to be on the same page as me, to trust me the same way I want to trust her and kind of stop the arguments over the little things as small as McDonald's or whatever.

She texts him for money for random purchases like McDonald's. Notice that he has no real way of making these decisions except vague feelings like, I want to do right for my family. Neither of them think there's anything wrong with this. And yet he openly says that he has a limit for how much he trusts her with money. That's a problem.

He has so much on his plate. He provides financially for the household. I try to take whatever I can do to try to help. So something like grocery shopping to me would make sense, that while you're at work, I would do that. But he tries to take on all those roles. So for him trusting me, that would allow me to help him in that way as well.

Can you explain that? You said that you are at home with the kids, therefore you'd be happy to go to the grocery store. Would you take the kids with you?

Yeah.

Okay. What's the problem with that?

Well, I think that sometimes he doesn't think I get the best items. I don't know. Or sometimes he's saying that I spend too much at the grocery store.

Like, how much is too much, Casey?

350.

350. And what is a reasonable number for.

You on a weekly basis? I wanted to know. She doesn't believe it to be realistic, but I want it to be around $75 weekly.

What? 70? What the hell?

That was a while ago.

Where did that number come from? 1912.

I know. I changed it to $100.

You just picked that number out of thin air, and you have, like, three kids. I'm not even the big grocery connoisseur. Even I know that's crazy.

That honestly was the last time we did a budget was when we were able to make that work, which has been over a year. And we've been breaking that budget for sure every week.

If you pick a number on a budget and you're breaking it every single week, you probably picked the wrong number.

I did.

Is this part of the reason that this dynamic exists where Dony, you say, I want to take the kids to McDonald's or I want to go grocery shopping? Casey says, yes or no or I'll go to the store and get this stuff. Is that why this dynamic emerged? Yes.

Yes. He believes that he can shop better than me. But I've proven over and over again through my couponing that and just because I cook the food that we eat.

Yeah.

That I know how to pick better options.

Listen, this sounds like it could be a great TV show. It's like, he shops, she shops. You know, there's this big debate. The only problem is it's not going to be me doing this show because that's the last place you're going to find me at a grocery store with coupons. All right? It's not going to be Ramit Sethi.

Oh, man.

So, Kasey, are you a better shopper than Dhoni?

I am, most definitely.

Okay. And Donnie, are you a better shopper than Casey? This show's getting better and better. Damn. He said yes. This is a good show. All right, hold on. Let me text my EP right now. I'm about to send some network executives a little text. Okay. This is a fascinating look into Donnie and Casey's life. What did you pick up about the psychological and relational clues? The money stuff stands out like a sore thumb. Yes. But they're leaving lots of other subtle clues as well. Let me know what you've noticed so far in the comments. Kasey, you mentioned that you did not have credit card debt. You didn't have credit. How'd you grow up with money?

My parents were, you know, my father was very, very successful, in a sense, so I just worked hard, and I just. I just paid cash for everything. Yeah, I just never used really credit card debt, so my credit score was terrible because I never used it.

What do you remember about your parents talking about money growing up?

My mom, it's funny you say that. She taught me to not owe anyone. She always wanted us to pay everything off and not owe anything.

Is that good advice? What do you think?

I think it is.

What else do you remember being said around the house? What other lessons do you remember?

The biggest lesson I think that's impacted me is that my dad kind of took care of everything financially. My mom, she was a stay at home mom as well. My father kind of covered all the bases. We. We had more than what we needed at times.

So are your parents both alive?

Yes, they are.

Okay.

And how are they doing financially now?

Not so well, actually.

Why?

My mom and dad actually aren't agreeing right now on finances. My dad is wanting to finance a lot of things, and my mom wants to pay things off. And they just haven't been on the same page. And my father is still kind of doing things the way he does things, though. And it's. I can hear it in her voice. It's. You know, I think it's scaring her a little bit.

What does she sound like? What do you hear when she talks to you about this?

She just sounds scared. Honestly. She sounds really scared about her finances, and she's retiring soon, and I don't like that. So I want to do whatever I can to assist.

Yeah.

All right. All right.

Thank you for sharing that. Let's see, Tony, what do you remember about growing up when you were young? Any memories you have about what parent or parents said about money?

I had a different upbringing. My mom always put everything on a credit card, so that's what was taught to me. Oh, just, you know, you need this new tire. Just put it on your car.

She said that?

Yeah.

She's not too savvy with money, Is that what you're saying?

Oh, not at all.

The opposite. Okay. That look of fright tells me everything. And I'm curious, you know, she's been doing this for a long time. Since you were young, paying on credit. Has she suffered any consequences recently?

Yes, she's figured out how to pay a credit card with a credit card. She's done that for, like, a long time. But now that she's changed career paths and it's not making the same income, it's caught up with her.

What's she gonna do?

I hope get another job until the one that she has picks up or however that works.

All right. What do you think you took away from the way you were raised with money?

I don't know. The lessons that I. That. I mean, dealing with credit. I mean, you think that you can beat the system, but you can't. Yeah, I think that's just the bottom line.

Yeah, that's a good lesson.

Painful, though, I had really great credit because she put me on her credit card. So when I turned 18, I could, you know, I got approved for all these credit cards. So that's how I found out about credit card debt.

How long did it take you after turning 18 to discover you were in a little bit of financial trouble?

20, like, 21, 22.

Just a couple years. Okay. Between the ages of 20 and 30, what happened with your money?

Ran up too much credit card debt, so I had bad credit, wasn't able to use any credit for years. And that's how I realized I need to work with what I have. To me, that Was a blessing in disguise.

Okay. Better to happen in your 20s than to happen in your 60s. All right, so you learned that lesson. What age did you meet Casey at?

24.

24. All right, and how long you two been married?

Almost five years.

Okay. Congratulations. When was the first time you two had a serious conversation about money?

Like yesterday.

Notice the effect of their childhoods on how they spend money. Casey's dad handled the money, which Casey's now trying to do. I guarantee that if we spent more time and we trace back to where this McDonald's text messaging thing came from, Part of it is seeing the role that his dad played as the money approver. And when I ask how his parents finances are now, did you catch it? He admits they're not going well, which is a crystal ball into their potential future about 25 years from now. Then there's Doni, whose mom spent a lot on credit cards, which is exactly what Doni learned. And then she did the same thing, but in addition to what they learned from their individual parents. One interesting thing to me is the dynamic between the two of them. Imagine you met your partner in their 20s, and they were irresponsible with money, so you helpfully stepped in to give some advice, maybe even take control of the money, and it worked. You might consider that a success, but after a while, your partner might say, hey, I understand you helped me when I was in trouble, But I'm ready to move past that identity now. I want to recalibrate the rules of our relationship, and recalibrating relationship dynamics is one of the hardest things you can do, Whether it's with your parents, your friends, or definitely your spouse. Let's keep listening. So your role when it comes to money in your relationship, you're not paying the bills. What would you say your role is?

I would say to help whichever way I can to save money or. Yeah, I think that my way of helping is to get the deal, use the coupons, try to limit where and what we're doing. Cause pretty much like you said, it's for the kids. So most of the time, the enjoyment goes from taking them places.

Okay. All right. Kasey, what do you think your role is in this financial relationship of yours?

Right now? I feel like it's just to make sure we're okay for emergency purposes if anything comes up.

How about, like, groceries? Does that count as emergencies?

It seems to be because it sometimes leads to heated discussions, as if it's.

Yeah, I'm curious. Talking about groceries as an emergency is not usually common among the People that I speak to, groceries are something you need every week, especially with kids.

When I say emergency, it's because when we disagree on it, I'm a true believer of happy wife, happy life. And when she's upset about me saying no, sometimes we all sometimes suffer, and I don't like that. And I don't like the fact that, you know, I feel almost obligated to say yes sometimes to avoid, you know, her being upset with me. And then it just shows out, you know, it just changed the whole dynamic of our home. Sometimes, you know, that's just what it is. And then we reflect on what it's about. And it's about, like you said, it's. Groceries is my role to keep us afloat and keep us able for emergencies and to be able. Because right now, we're just, to me, in a very uncomfortable situation. And I can feel the tent in my neck just thinking about it. Because, I mean, my life up to this point the past five years has been just a new lifestyle, a new change for me. I come from making great money. I'm used to not thinking about what I spend money on, so I'm used to just treating myself and whoever's around me as much as possible. But it's different when you have a family of five now and a home and all these responsibilities. So now I'm having to change my way of thinking from just carefree to. I was never really great with money. I must say that even though I had money and worked hard, I spent it as quickly as I earned it or I never really saved for the future. I just spent it. And now I'm getting better just because I feel this responsibility on my plate and I don't want to slip up.

I'm trying to meet him where we're both in agreeance and happy with. Because you have. Yeah. I don't want it to be so caught up and just flipping food all the time, but it's a big part of it because you have to eat. I'm making, you know, lunch for him. I'm cooking for the kids. But I don't want to get caught up on the food situation.

I don't want to keep saying same thing, but it's just been tough for me to want to give her that freedom to do the things that she wants to do just because of, you know, I feel that responsibility, that pressure. That pressure just sits and it just doesn't go anywhere.

And it's like, you know, so you feel the pressure. So therefore, what is your natural reaction? To that pressure.

I mean, I. Sometimes I get. I get a little. She says I'm being mean, but I'm just trying to. Yeah.

Do you notice that you take on more. The more pressure you feel, the more control you try to exert. Have you noticed that?

Yes.

How many hours a day do you go to work?

Fortunately, about nine to ten hours a day.

Nine to ten hours a day. That's a long work day. And then. And she's like, hey, I want to go to the grocery store and get groceries. I'm here all day. I have time. But you go, nope, I'm gonna stop by on my way home. You see the pattern there? What is that? Yeah.

I can't really explain that, to be honest.

You ever play sports? Yes. All right. What'd you play?

Baseball.

Okay.

Bowling.

Bowling?

Yeah. I was a bowler.

What the hell? Are you serious? What was your score?

210.

Okay, so first of all, when you said baseball, I was like, I don't know anything about any sports. But when you said bowling, I got very interested because I'm a kid of suburbia. I know bowling. So, you know, you're on some baseball team, whatever, and you know you're good at something. You have the skills for something. Your teammates got the skills for another thing, but your team is down by three points. Do you go over to your teammate and you go, hey, give me the bat. I'm going to swing. I'm going to do it again. I'm going to do it even though my arm's tired and my shoulders are shot? Or do you say, you know what? You're awesome. You know what we got to do to win? We're down by three. We both need to get there. Can you pull it off? They go, yes. You go. I trust you. Go for it. Which one is more effective as part of a team?

Obviously, the second one is more effective.

Yeah, but you haven't been doing that at home. Now, let's talk about why. Why do you think?

I think it's really from. Really how I was raised. I guess, when I think about it.

Tell me.

I just felt like my father just always was the money handler. I mean, he just did extravagant. He did just outlandish things. He just did the. He would go buy multiple cars at once. He would buy a big house. He would just do all these things as I was a kid. Yeah, it was just a cool time. And just to witness that at 10, 11, 12.

What does that mean to you to be able to see your dad at the age of 10 go out and buy cars and all kinds of stuff. What did that mean to you back then?

Well, it just meant I wanted to be like that. I wanted to always be able to provide for my family, do all the things he did.

And so translate that for me today. Okay. We're not talking about buying multiple cars. That's not really on the table. But we are talking about what.

That control.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Talk me through it.

It's really something. I don't even realize it until I'm called out on it, actually. Yeah, it's kind of wild. It's something I don't even really realize. I like to think of myself as like, a leader and kind of trendsetter persons and not a follower. So I can see how even some of my conflicts with certain situations in my past, I can see how that can be an issue for me just sitting here thinking about some things.

I bet there's a lot to unpack. I bet you're gonna have a lot of thinking to do. I love watching you make that connection between you and your dad. I think for every man, especially a man who's recently had three kids in a short amount of time, you start to process things differently. Most days, you know, you wake up, you know how to brush your teeth, you know how to do this stuff. It's. You're a master at it. But it's the big, uncertain things in life, like traveling to a different country for the first time, eating at a fancy restaurant for the first time, or the really big ones. Having three kids in four, five years, we don't know how we're going to react. And so what do we do? We look around, and we look around at the only examples we know. And who does that example happen to be in your life?

My father. My parents. Yeah.

And so that's what we tend to lean on. Doesn't mean you're a bad person. That's what all of us do. Now you can choose what parts of that you want to follow and maybe what parts you want to chart a different path on. What do you think?

No, I totally agree. That's. This is wild. And we're trying so hard to set up our kids to be so further ahead of everyone else. And so it's been a reality that me and her has kind of realized that we kind of were. We wish we had a different setup from. From the beginning as far as money and how to handle it and do things.

So watching Casey make these connections is why I truly love my job and why I'm so appreciative of every couple that comes on this podcast. Every single one, including Casey and Dhoni today. You know, I recently had a guy named Will Reynolds post something about this podcast on Twitter. He said he overthinks 90% of small money decisions. He'll go six months thinking about earbuds, and then he'll end up buying a used pair. He called it crippling. And then he said, quote, I realized this listening to Ramit's podcasts. It took me listening to 60 episodes for it to click. Now, I really appreciate that message, first of all. So if you have anything to say about this podcast, please post it. Leave a review on Apple, post it on Twitter, send me a dm. I love hearing your feedback, but I also want to point out that some of you are listening to this podcast for the first time. Some of you have listened to over a hundred episodes. Yeah. You might immediately recognize some of the lessons from these couples. Like, when I have a million dollars, I'm not going to magically feel good about money. Or wow, 50% of the people Ramit talks to don't even know how much money they make. But. But there are also subtle lessons. It may take you months or years for some of these insights to sink in. That's fine. You have the rest of your life to live a rich life. I think from that comment and from my guess that the real stars of this show are the couples who come on here. I help them. I nudge them. I may point out a ratio that they haven't heard of before. But what you just heard from Casey as he suddenly realized that he wants control over his money just like his dad had, that is magic. Have you ever wondered how to use your money to buy back your time? This is something that people love to talk about, but very few people actually spend their money to get their time back. I want to show you 20 ways to buy your time back this Saturday from all areas of life and all different income levels. This Saturday, September 23rd. You can only get it@iwt.com podcastnewsletter that's 20 Ways to Buy back your time. I'm going to show you this Saturday.

Well, I'm talking about setting up for the future. If I'm not available if something happens. What if I need her to be able to manage everything? I need her to be able to trust her with funds. Not just in case something happens to me down the line, but just in general.

Can I reframe that, what you just said?

Yes.

I need to be able to trust her reframe that I need to trust her. One is about some ephemeral force in the universe that needs to force you to trust her. That force does not exist. The second is, I need to change myself to trust her. Hmm. And right now, the reason that she's carefree and actually only asking these $20 questions is that you haven't trusted her with the real stuff, and you're actually doing a disservice to her. Doni's over here. She's shrinking herself, thinking that with money, it's about assets.