"I want to retire, but my wife is too scared"

Can you retire?

I'm not 100% sure.

I want to retire.

What's the hesitation?

Joe said, I think you feel entitled to retire. It's very frustrating, a little demoralizing.

I do more of the emotional labor, and then I feel a little resentful. Meg just kind of skates through.

If I didn't have to learn more about our finances, I wouldn't.

God, I wish you were a partner in this. The thought of doing that by myself feels very lonely.

What do you remember your family saying about money when you were growing up?

Nobody ever taught me anything about credit cards, which got Got me in a lot of trouble in my 20s.

My parents like never told the truth. Like everything was a lie. Everything was gaslighting. I spent for dopamine. I gambled like an addict. Wow.

It was just a show.

What would it mean to you if you had to work longer than necessary?

I'd feel resentful.

Towards?

The world, but also Joe.

Are we ready to embrace this new chapter? This is a problem. It's causing us problems and you have to get good at this. What would you do if you were ready to retire but your partner was not? Today I'm talking to Meg and Joe, 63 and 58 years old, and they've been together for over 20 years. Joe has been carrying the weight of the finances in their relationship. She earns more. She manages the money. It turns out that they have spoken to 3 financial advisors, but they are still paralyzed with the question of if they can retire. I'm kind of wondering, what are they coming here for? Are you advisor shopping to try to get the answer you want? That's actually why I enlisted the help of Facet to give them even more specific scenarios about what their future looks like. Let's take a look at their conscious spending plan. Assets: $2.1 million. Investments: $4.3 million. Savings: $133,000. Debt: $510,000. Total net worth: $6.1 million. What am I doing in my life right now? What is my job that I'm sitting here talking to a couple worth $6.1 million wondering if they can retire? I suspect this question is less about the numbers and more about how they feel. You want to find out? Let's meet Meg and Joe. I'm not a member of Facet, but I have an incentive to endorse them as I have an ongoing fee-based contract for cash compensation based on this endorsement. These opinions are my own and not a guarantee of a similar result. Facet is an SEC-registered investment advisor. So, Meg, you wrote on your application, you said, I'm ready to retire. I'm afraid that my wife's nervousness will keep me at my job longer than necessary. And what do you mean by that, longer than necessary?

I mean that we have been to a couple of financial advisors and asked them about retirement, and those financial advisors have said, yeah, you're good to go. And Joe, uh, hasn't believed them. And Joe says, I'm not sure, maybe we can do that, but maybe that would mean I would have to work longer than I want to. And so it never kind of goes past that. It's very frustrating and a little demoralizing for me.

Okay.

What would it mean to you if you had to work longer than necessary?

I think it would feel— I'd feel resentful.

Towards?

The world, but also Joe, because I feel that we've been told that we can retire, and then there's this continual worry about not being able to.

Joe, when you hear Meg say that she does not want to have to work longer than necessary, and that if she had to go through that, she would feel resentful. What's your reaction to that?

That feels terrible. I want Meg to have everything that she wants, maybe to a detriment to our relationship sometimes. I want Meg to retire.

Okay.

And what about for you? Do you want to retire?

I would actually like to retire at 60.

Ah.

And so that's in 2 years.

Okay, so you want to retire at 60, and in 2 years you will be like 65, 66. Okay. Quite interesting. And do you both agree on that? If you could, you would retire in 2 years?

Yeah.

Retire tomorrow.

Really?

Oh yeah.

If that's the case, have you had a conversation where you both said, we want to retire in the next 2 years, what will it take for us to do that?

We're starting to have that conversation. We're putting more practical things in place, like, as opposed to having it be theoretical, thinking like, okay, well, we could have this amount of cash and this amount, you know, here's how we would handle.

Okay, are you able to do it? Can it work?

Part of it does come down to a lifestyle question. Yeah, I'm not 100% sure.

Okay, you're not sure. Is it a yes or a no?

Like, can I tomorrow? No.

2 years from now?

2 years, yes. Okay, but that's where kind of the question of the level of retirement kind of comes into play.

Got it. What do you think, Meg? Yes or no, if I had to pin you down?

I think so, because I'm willing to have a lower standard of living in order to retire.

Got it.

Yeah.

Okay.

Helpful to know. Actually pretty cool that you both agree that you could retire. Question is, is it the type of retirement you want, et cetera? But to know that 2 years from now you could, if you wanted to, is really cool. Let me understand a little bit more about both of you. How long you've been together? How long have you been married? Are there any children? Tell me a little bit more.

We got together in 2005. Uh, we got married in 2012 and then again in '13 when it was legalized. No kids.

To understand a little bit more about your relationship dynamics, how do you two operate as a team? I'm talking about money, but also maybe are there other parts of life, work, etc., where you can just tell me a little bit more about your team dynamics?

I don't believe we're a team around money. A dynamic that has persisted for most of our relationship is that I'm like the gatekeeper and and Meg will be like, I want to go on vacation, and I'll be like, can I— can we afford that? And Meg's like, I don't know, because Meg really had very little to do with our finances. Um, so Meg's a social worker and I work in finance, so I think when she moved in with me, uh, it became kind of a natural division of labor for me to just take the finances. My finances were significantly more complicated than Meg's, and so you know, I took it on and she was happy to let me.

And that— you just kind of glided into that?

Yeah.

Okay, this is very reminiscent of every straight couple that I talked to. Yeah, that's like exactly the same.

It's totally the same.

Like, hello, do we need to do the whole emotional labor thing? I don't think so. All right, you slid into it like every couple does. This is great.

Yeah.

Meg, were you okay with that?

I was.

You were like, she's got it, she makes more, she's better at this. I'm going to let her handle it. Is that what your approach was?

Partially, yeah. And also she made 3 times what I made when, when we started living together. Needless to say, my lifestyle was a lot more simple. You know, I really never dealt with property or a lot of tax issues. It just was like very straightforward. I balanced my checkbook. And that was it.

When you came into this relationship, and I'm guessing your lifestyle, Joe, was elevated compared to Meg's. Okay. Was that any— an issue at all?

I had ambivalence about it. I'm kind of a do-gooder. I've been working in social work, you know, most of my life, and I'm a Quaker. There's a lot about simplicity and I was a little uncomfortable with the shift up.

I mean, like, which part?

I love it now. I mean, don't worry, I'm good with it. But I, you know, I just was like a little uncomfortable with the amount of money that we were spending.

What's an example?

We'd just get all these Amazon boxes. Like every day there would be Amazon boxes coming to our door. I was just thinking, what are What are we going to do with all this stuff? I was just sort of flabbergasted at the ability just to spend money because something caught your eye. That was really weird to me because the way you were raised was what? It wasn't really the way I was raised, but the way I was living before, I was really going paycheck to paycheck.

Got it. So you were carefully considering how much something cost. Before buying it, right? Got it. And here you're just like, whoa, there's like 5 boxes at the door. Yeah, got it.

Okay.

Yeah. Did you talk about this?

Yeah, I remember we had a date in Santa Cruz. Do you remember that? We were sitting on the beach and my TV broke, and I'm like, oh yeah, I'm just gonna go buy a new TV. And you're like, well, that must be nice. And I'm like, it's a TV.

Two different languages.

Two different languages.

Totally. That's quite amazing. Like, the TV is not even the thing. It's just the object. But it's actually how we were raised, what money means to us, how much we're making, all of it. That's quite a profound example.

Okay.

How does money work in your house today? Where does it flow? Who manages this and that part? Who spends it? Can you walk me through that?

We have joint bank accounts. Everything's joint, and both of our paychecks go into the joint account. Joe is the money manager, keeps track of stuff. Now that we have a CSP, we're setting aside guilt-free spending pots and stuff like that. And we talk about large purchases.

How large is large?

Well, right now it's like over $200, which might be a little low.

It's not keeping up with inflation. Maybe, maybe we could bump it up a little, but that's a separate conversation.

And, uh, what about the investments? Who handles that?

I do.

Joe.

Okay.

Do you talk about it?

I try to, but then Meg's eyes kind of glaze over and I'm like, okay.

Got it. And is that you're not interested or you don't understand or all of the above?

I'm not as interested in investments and, and it might be because I don't understand them well. About 6 months ago, Joe said, I really need you to be more of a partner in our finances. And she asked me to bone up on personal finance. So we both read Money for Couples together, and then I got Finance for Dummies. And I, you know, I have a very rudimentary knowledge of investments. The other thing is Joe is very interested in investments and curious and gets excited about certain investments, and it— that's not my jam.

Okay. Why do you think that she said, I need you to get involved as a partner 6 months ago?

She was feeling very stressed about our money, and we were having these discussions about retirement where I was saying, I want to retire.

Right.

And I think she wanted me to have something to back that up with. Yeah.

Nice. When she said that, how did you receive it?

I don't think I went in enthusiastically. I mean, it wasn't like she's going to divorce me, but it was a little bit of an ultimatum. And I felt that it was required of me as partner to do this. And so I did.

Joe, what's your take on that? Um, do you agree with how Meg characterized it?

I do. I, I do agree that I, I, you know, I said, said this is what I needed, and Meg took some definite steps. And now it is really helpful that we go through our spending together. I think the way I feel is that Meg has made a good start, and I fear that Meg thinks she's done.

Can I first just say, like, I find this to be incredibly mature and very rare.

Very.

It's very impressive, truthfully. The fact that you 20 years ago had this disparity in finances and understanding of money and you made it work. And just recently, Joe, you expressed yourself and said, hey, this is what I need from you. I need you to become a partner in this. That's hard enough to say. Okay. Most never say that. Meg, you then received it. And although it doesn't really feel great to hear that kind of stuff, but you were like, okay, you read multiple books, you learn how this stuff works. You recognize that if money is a core part of your relationship, you have to be conversant on it. You have to be conversant on any basic part of a relationship. And then you both did it. So I just want to take a second and really celebrate that you are both doing it. Like, double thumbs up. Amazing work. Okay. I wish more couples did that. Is there more to do? I'm sure there is. And we can talk about what that looks like. But I don't know. So far I'm just like, wow, wow, really cool. It might seem a little absurd to watch hand-wringing over retirement. It's like, isn't that what everybody wants? You work all these years so that eventually you can retire and relax. You have to understand that if you have been working for 30, 40, 50 years, it is really difficult to just turn that off. People are good at what they do. They like being wanted. They like being needed. They also like the cash of knowing that every single month I'm getting a paycheck. So when you take all of that away all at once, it's incredibly scary. And that's why a lot of people keep pushing their retirement date Just one more year. But when you don't have a clear vision of how much enough is, it's easy to just keep pushing it. I just need an extra $100,000. I just need to work an extra 2 years. When you don't know how much enough is, it's never enough and you just keep working. If we can't get these two on the same page with retirement, I'm worried they'll never retire. Here's my plan of attack. I know a lot of financial advisors and how they run their meetings. They're really good at running this complex analysis and giving you a binder and saying, here you go and look at the drawdown. I'm not going to do any of that. I want to ask them so many questions that they feel more understood than they have ever felt before. I actually want them to discover insights about each other right here in these chairs that they have never known before today. That is how I get them to open up to me, to each other, and to actually connect over the vision that they have for the life they wanna live. If I can get Meg and Joe to really get specific about what their fears are, what they want, then we can make the numbers support that. Almost always, if somebody tells me exactly what they want and they are honest about it, we can figure out what they need to do in order to make that happen. The problem is that most people don't actually know what they want. They have no knowledge or control over their numbers. So when you try to put it all together, it just becomes this mush. But I think based on talking to Meg and Joe that they have a pretty good command of what they want and their numbers. So I need to tweak a little bit at the edges, get them to open up, and then I will try to help them with their money get where they want to go. One of my rich life rules is that I am happy to pay to learn from the best. That's why I have personally paid for MasterClass, this episode's sponsor. One class I really enjoyed taking was Prepare to Be Unprepared with Amy Poehler. I'm always interested in trying to improve my speaking skills. This was a great class where I learned a ton about the rules of improv and how to apply that to my life so I can be more adaptable on the fly. I use a lot of these principles actually when I'm talking on my podcast. Unlike other platforms, MasterClass puts you in the room with the people who defined their fields. They're not just experts, they are the best in the world. MasterClass has plans starting at $10 a month, giving you unlimited access to over 200 classes taught by the world's best business leaders, writers, chefs, and even me talking about financial wellness. There's no risk to joining. Every new membership comes with a 30-day money-back guarantee so you can try it out before you commit. MasterClass keeps adding new classes, so there's never been a better time to get in. Right now, as a listener of this show, you get at least 15% off any annual membership at masterclass.com/ramit. That's 15% at masterclass.com/ramit. Head to masterclass.com/ramit to see the latest offer. I recently got a comment on my podcast asking if I really use the products that I say I do. And the answer is yes. If I tell you that I personally use and pay for a product or service, I do. That's why in so many Delete.me ads that I have hosted on this podcast, I tell you, I pay for this myself. I do. And I have for years. I love this service. That's why I work with them. And that's why I want you to check them out too. Delete.me is a subscription service that removes your personal data from the internet. We're talking about things like your full name, email, phone number, address, even your parents' names, all found and removed. They've been the leading expert in personal information removal for the last 15 years. They were recently named Wirecutter's number one data removal service. And I personally use and pay for DeleteMe and I love it. And I know you will too. You'll get 20% off all consumer plans when you go to joindeleteme.com/ramit and use promo code Ramit at checkout. That's joindelete.me.com/ramit, code Ramit for 20% off. Here's my question for you today. Do you know exactly what you need to do to reach your first $100,000 in investable money? Most people don't. That's why I created the Road to $100K, a step-by-step program that shows you exactly what to do. Where to focus, how long it's going to take to get to $100K, and even how to accelerate your timeline. You can learn more at iwt.com/100K. Based on the two of you now having a common language, are you working towards the same goal when it comes to your money?

I think we're on the right track to be working toward the same goal.

A bit of hesitation from both of you. What's the hesitation?

Right now the goal is to have a nice retirement, and I do feel we're both working towards that goal, and I'm not sure what other goals Joe might have in mind.

Joe, one of the goals is, is, uh, for Meg to stay engaged, and I don't trust that that will happen. So Meg will be eligible for a pension, and so basically she's going to keep getting a paycheck, in essence, um, and I'm going to have to transition into drawing down our investments. And so there's a lot of decisions to be made around that, and that's where a lot of my anxiety comes from around retiring. And I feel like without better engagement, like, that's going to be just on me. For like the next 30 years to like handle that emotional labor of like dealing with the fear and dealing with like advisors. And so the thought of doing that by myself feels very lonely.

Okay. And if you could resolve that, what would it mean for you?

I think it would mean, um, that a lot of the pressure would feel like it, it's off. Getting a paycheck and doing whatever with it is not hard to decide necessarily, but, uh, the next phase feels hard.

Got it. Okay. That's very helpful. Can I understand a little bit more about how you both grew up? Because I strongly suspect it influences how you both treat money today. Uh, Meg, what do you remember your family saying about money when you were young?

I got instruction in how to write a check. I got a bank account when I was 15, 16. My mom taught me how to write a check. Pretty much that was all the education my parents gave me about money, except my dad, who was born in the '20s, always said to me, if you have a dime, you should be able to buy a Coke.

That's the lesson you got?

Pretty much.

What does that tell you?

You should be able to spend your money if you've got it.

That's the takeaway. If, if you have your money, you should be able to spend it. As opposed to?

I was never taught to save.

Uh-huh.

Nobody ever taught me anything about credit cards, which got me in a lot of trouble in my 20s.

Your, your dad, who grew up in the '20s, he did not talk about saving? That's surprising to me.

He grew up middle class. My mom was very poor, and she was an accountant. I don't know why she didn't teach me more about money.

Why do you think?

Well, you're supposed to find a husband, right?

Right. Thank you.

Yeah. Thank you, Joe.

That was it. The idea being getting a rich husband. Yep.

Get a rich husband.

A lot of my education was how to make guys interested in me.

From your mom?

Yeah. Well, yeah.

So what does that look like? How to dress, makeup, hair, that kind of stuff?

Maybe dressing, but more like learn about sports so you can talk about basketball with him.

Really?

Yeah.

And then he'll be interested in you.

This is like very old-fashioned.

Super old-fashioned.

When you're learning this, because I'm presuming you're like 7 years old, 8, 10 years old, like, how are you receiving this information? Are you like, I'm not going to really need this? Like, how are you taking it?

I was—

didn't really know I was a lesbian until like late high school. So I just thought my mom had a lot of opinions about relationships and how you act in them, and was trying to brush them off because they were weird to me.

Got it. She's still alive?

No.

Okay, so you didn't learn much about money. You didn't even learn to save, which is like actually one of the only things that parents tell their kids in America, they don't even take it seriously either. Like, they'll be out at an amusement park and they'll be like, here we are at Disneyland. Anyway, you should save your money, kids. Let's go on the ride. Like, they don't even take it seriously, but at least they say it, you know?

Yeah.

I'm actually kind of refreshed. I'd rather just don't say it. Don't even bother lying. Nobody's taking this seriously. I'm kind of refreshed by your parents. Hey, you got a dime? Buy a Coke. Fine. But the problem is that you end up later in life unaware of how to manage money.

Totally. I really had no education. They managed their money pretty well, really, actually. Um, they had a nice little nest egg at the end. They outlived it, but I— that wasn't their fault. I mean, I just feel like my mom's just lived a really long Yeah.

And what happened financially speaking when they outlived it?

When my parents went into a residential facility that had a continuing care contract. So they basically bet on you're dying before you run out of money. Yes. But if you don't, they pay for you.

So they won the bet.

So, yeah, my mom did.

Got it. And did you take any lessons away from that?

I feel like we really need a lot of money because I may live a very long time.

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

And isn't that kind of Joe's—

and Joe too.

Okay. Isn't that kind of Joe's point? Like, I'm not sure if we have enough.

Yeah.

But you are also like, I just wanna retire.

Yeah. We've had some discussions where Joe said, I think you feel entitled to retire. And I said, yeah, I do feel entitled to retire.

I love the honesty of this conversation.

Yeah.

I love that. I wish more couples were just like, I think, and you're like, yeah, yeah, great.

I've worked for, you know, all my life. Okay. I feel entitled, but that comes from my parents too, I think, because they retired and then lived a long time.

Okay. So I love the honesty of like, yeah, I feel entitled to retire. Then the next sentence in that conversation, I would presume, is Well, if you retire at this age, this is the lifestyle that you're going to live, or we're going to live. Is that where that conversation goes?

Yeah. And then I say, well, you know, well, how about if we cut back? And then Joe says, I don't think we can cut back.

Oh, you can't cut back?

I don't have a lot of confidence in us cutting back. It gives me a little panicky feeling, the idea of cutting back. Uh, and also I'm not 100% sure I, think Meg truly wants to cut back.

Did you ever do like a trial? Like, let's trial living or something for like 3 months?

Yeah, I didn't. It didn't last very long.

Really? You did it?

Well, I mean, we've tried to like drastically reduce spending months.

What'd you do?

We tried to do door— no DoorDash for a month, and that worked. So it's like, well, if we can't give up DoorDash—

oh man, all right.

Although we have been doing a lot better. When we started on the money for couples journey and we actually got a CSP, we decided how much money we wanted to spend on things and we have really been sticking to it.

You have?

We have.

We have.

Yeah. Yeah.

Wow.

Maybe not month by month, but it evens out. Yeah, for sure.

That's amazing.

CSP is magic. I mean, and you know, I'm not being paid to say this.

Tell us straight to the camera.

Tell them what they need to know.

That's so cool.

Yeah.

So you got this new tool.

Mm-hmm.

You both did it.

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Together. And you created a vision. This is what we wanna spend. You redirected your expenses and now you're doing it month to month.

That's the way.

Yeah. We are doing it. It's been successful.

It has been. Yeah.

Yeah.

This is giving me a lot of clues because you're telling me through your past actions that it is very likely if you set a specific goal, some numbers and intention, you're gonna follow through. Your, your future performance, the best predictor of that is your past. And your past is telling me you got the CSP, you started using it. This is exactly why I do what I do. Great. Okay. Thank you for walking me through your childhood. Very helpful. Joe, same question. What do you remember your family saying about money when you were growing up?

My family was more the save everything. Don't spend anything. We're not gonna tell you what to do with the money you save, but my parents are immigrants and extremely dysfunctional around money. They've had separate money their entire lives. And, uh, my mom is going through some dementia, so my dad asked me to take over her finances and I had to go through boxes of stuff and walk into banks and be like, does my mother have an account here? Uh, and so it's finally all straightened out, but they have no idea what the other has. And so now we know what my mom has, but I still have no idea what my father has.

Um, you didn't ask him as you're going through this process?

Oh, they won't. That, that's not a—

he says we have enough.

Yeah.

Which country?

My dad's German and my mom's from Ireland, and my dad grew up like solidly middle class, although, you know, he was a child at the end of World War II.

Yeah.

And, uh, my mom grew up poor. In Ireland.

How did that show up in your childhood, that your mom was poor in Ireland?

Uh, my mom is extremely, extremely frugal. She was really the one saying, you know, save your money, save your money. And also some lessons that tells me now more about their marriage. Like, she was like, don't get married until you're 30 at least.

How old was she?

She was 29 actually. And she's like, Don't get married until you have your own money. Make sure that, you know, you are fully able to support yourself, which are, you know, some pretty radical ideas at the end of the '70s.

Why do you think she said that?

Well, because I think she felt trapped in her relationship.

She also told her not to have kids.

Oh yeah, kids will ruin your life.

Always nice to hear that from your mom.

And she's like, oh, I don't mean you. And I'm like, uh-huh.

I mean I want to say it's not funny, but it is kind of funny. It's funny when you think about what parents in the past generations said and like how completely un-PC that is. Yeah, like, just like, absolutely. Here's how to talk about sports so you can meet a man to your soon-to-be coming out lesbian daughter. I mean, what world is this? Yeah, but, but you got to laugh. I mean, what else, right? You mentioned that she was extremely frugal, your mother. Do you remember her saying anything about money, like, uh, we don't need a lot to live on, or things like that?

The refrain of my childhood was $100,000 is nothing. $100,000 a year. And now keep in mind, this would be like 1980. I mean, that was a lot of money in 1980.

Yeah, so I can't do the math in my head, but that's like, let's say, $500,000 today, right? Which is a huge amount of money.

Huge amount of money. And my parents— my dad was a chef, my mom was a waitress. I mean, so these are not—

so she's kind of just making these numbers up.

Yeah, totally.

Here's a number that we you could never make. And by the way, that's nothing.

And that's nothing.

Yeah.

What do you think she was really saying when she said that?

I think it was really, really— it was a roundabout way of telling us to really prioritize security. It was very much like, you're going college, you're going east to college, and you're going to be a lawyer. You're going to get like a high-paying job. I think that was very much the focus.

And do you find yourself bringing some of the messages that you grew up with to this relationship as it relates to money?

Yes, for sure. I've worked in the same job since 1993. I just have like a layer of stability, which I think is actually good in some ways. I mean, I think that's like outside of money even, it's kind of a providing like an emotional stability. But also I make safe choices. Meg is a very safe partner for me. I guess the best example of that is my parents, like, never told the truth. Like, everything was a lie, everything was gaslighting. And Meg, as a Quaker, does not lie. And so it's very clear, like, this is why.

That's a very interesting answer. I did not expect that. It's kind of beautiful, actually. Meg is a safe partner because she tells the truth. And I was surrounded with lies. That's quite, that's quite beautiful. Okay, thank you for helping me understand that. What's fascinating is that Jo is so confident at work, but predictably, she has brought that scarcity into her relationship with money. By the way, notice that she redefines it. I like security, but a lot of it is just another, maybe slightly more elevated form of scarcity. Did you catch Joe's comment that she doesn't want to have to feel lonely managing the retirement drawdown for the next 30 years? And when she said that to me, I kind of looked around like, why would you? Why would you even have to worry about that at all? To me, that's like worrying about painting the porch every single day for the next 30 years. First of all, I'm not painting a porch. Somebody else is going to come do that for me. And second of all, it's going to be one and done, or maybe once every 10 years. Done. I think deep down, Jo just is worried about money and she's finding ways that seem rational to keep her stuck. Well, who's going to have to take on the emotional labor of doing this for the next 30 years? Not you, Jo. You can find people to help you. Or better yet, just automate it because a computer can do this for you. We don't need to let these things in our head keep us stuck. And here's a little framework that you can use for yourself. When you've got something that is trapping you, stopping you, you ask yourself this: what if this were easy? What if this were just so easy? How would it feel? How would it look? And finally, last of all, what would I do? Jo doesn't need to do this alone. There are plenty of other people, computers, tools that can do this for her. This is not a reason to stop for even 5 minutes, much less years more of working. I think it's really interesting the language that parents use on my podcast. They'll use words like, "I want to give them everything I didn't have." It's deep-rooted messaging that often I find makes people hyperfocus on small things, but I don't find them paying as much attention to the big picture stuff. For example, protecting your kids' future if something were to happen to you. And our friends at Fabric by Gerber Life can help. Fabric by Gerber Life is term life insurance you can get done today. It's made for busy parents like you, all online, on your schedule, right from your couch. You could be covered in under 10 minutes, often with no health exam required. If you've got kids, especially if you're young and healthy, now is a great time to lock in low rates. They have flexible, high-quality policies to fit your family's needs, all with a 30-day money-back guarantee. And even if you have life insurance through your employer, it may not be enough to protect your family, especially if you leave your job or you get let go. Join the thousands of parents who trust Fabric to help protect their family. Apply today in just minutes at meetfabric.com/Ramit. meetfabric.com/Ramit. And use my link so they know I sent you. meetfabric.com/Ramit. Policies issued by Western Southern Life Insurance Company, not available in certain states. Prices subject to underwriting and health questions. It's kind of interesting how people react differently to caffeine. Some people get super jittery with coffee. Some people prefer tea. I found it to be really fun to try to test different sources of caffeine and find what works for me. Sometimes it's a black coffee, sometimes it's matcha. And there's a new way for you to try out a different source of caffeine, one that will not cause you to have a massive energy crash. That's Element's new Lemonade Iced Tea. Element is a tasty electrolyte drink mix and sparkling electrolyte drink made specifically to replace essential electrolytes lost throughout the day. It's used by professional sports teams, Navy SEALs, Olympic athletes, and my wife loves it. Now Element has launched their Lemonade Iced Tea made with full spectrum black tea extract, not isolated caffeine added in later. It's built on the same formula as Element's core drink mix, with a meaningful dose of electrolytes. No sugar, no artificial colors, no other weird ingredients. Get a free 8-count LMNT sample pack with any purchase at DrinkLMNT.com/Ramit. That's DrinkLMNT.com/Ramit. Try it totally risk-free. If you don't like it, they'll give you your money back, no questions asked. Meg, what money messages from your childhood do you think you bring to this relationship around money?

I think I bring a middle-class attitude. I had everything I wanted, and usually my parents would buy it for me. I don't really want a lot of expensive things. I wasn't trained to want them.

You mentioned a middle-class sentiment. What does that mean to you? Middle class?

Very stable. Privileged. I have the feeling I've been wrong many times, uh, in my life about the optimism that I have around being able to afford things. I really have the feeling that the money is gonna be there.

Okay.

Yeah.

Are you middle class today?

I don't believe so. No.

What are you?

Mildly wealthy. Okay.

Joe, what are you?

Rich most places. Upper middle class where we live.

Got it. Upper middle class.

Okay.

All right, Meg, you mentioned something else that caught my eye. You mentioned being raised a Quaker. I don't know much about Quakers. Can you tell me a little bit about that?

Yeah, it's a Protestant sect. The branch that I go to, people sit in a circle. There's not a lot of distractions, and we sit in silence for an hour. And if people feel called by God to say something, then they minister. There's no one person, like, ministering to us. And there's a lot of testimonies, simplicity, non-violence.

Does it resonate with your lifestyle today?

That's part of the discomfort I had when I moved in with Joe. It wasn't as simple a life once I moved in. I had a Quaker friend come in, and the first thing he saw was this huge television on this huge stand, and he just started laughing. He was like, "That is a big television!" I was just like, "Oh, oh." It has caused some, you know, uncomfortability sometimes.

I can see that.

Jill had a BMW. She used to vroom up to meeting and pick me up, and everybody else is driving their Priuses.

And have you two talked about what your rich life is?

Yes, we have. Good.

What, what's the gist of it with 2 or 3 specifics?

Comfortable travel. It's being in a position of having fewer worries. Like, in terms of valuing stability, the more our net worth grows, the more it's like there's less that can take us out, if that makes sense.

Feel safer.

Feel safer. Yeah. And being able to do fun stuff and not have to worry about it.

What's an example?

Like, I like to learn things, so I want to be able to take any class I want.

Can you do that today?

Yeah, it's mostly more time is the issue. Okay.

What do you say? Anything else that Joe missed?

I don't think so.

Good. Okay.

Can I get really specific with your rich life vision? If we fast forward X number of years, let's say late 60s, what does a Wednesday look like in your rich life? Go ahead, Meg.

I would be wandering around a botanical garden looking at birds. Might have lunch with a friend.

Where?

Anywhere.

Okay.

Be able to have nice dinners out with Joe once a week or a couple of times a month.

Okay.

I'm going to ask a few probing questions. If any of these connect with you, speak to them. And if not, you can just ignore them. What are you wearing? Who are you seeing? What are you driving? What is in your house?

I think we'd be down to one car.

Were you helping?

I would like to get involved in some volunteer work. I've seen some mentorship programs that help middle school kids write better.

Cool.

Okay. Yeah.

It's a very beautiful vision. I love it. It actually is all congruent with what you've told me about yourself. It's very congruent. Thank you, Joe. Same question. Wednesday, in your late 60s, what does your rich life look like?

I have this idea that in retirement I'd like to spend month-long chunks in big cities in Europe. But if I'm home, um, maybe the gym and then some woodworking and then see some friends, uh, maybe like go for tea or go for a walk. And really, uh, I like being at home, so Picture being in our house.

The one you have now?

The one we have now. I'd like to renovate it. So it's half renovated, like to renovate the other half. I picture having enough time for the things that I want to do.

Great.

Yeah.

And just a quick question, if you were traveling on this given Wednesday, where would you be staying?

An Airbnb. Um, and then the idea is to go do one thing a day.

Love it. That's great. We are now, my wife and I are at one big thing every 2 days. Oh, it's like better, really slow, but we give ourselves a long time. And if we stumble across something, we'll do it. But some days we're just like, let's just wander or chill, and it feels really abundant. So, okay, cool. Um, that Airbnb that you might stay at, in today's dollars, how much would you pay for an Airbnb when you travel? Just so I know.

When I think of it now and I kind of look on Airbnb, maybe $5,000 for the month.

For the month?

Yeah.

Great. Okay. What do you notice about your answers?

They don't require a huge amount of money.

Agreed. What else?

Low-key.

Yeah. When you say that, what do you mean?

Not a lot of moving parts.

There's tea, there's lunch with a friend. It's like, like you said, low-key. Quite easy to make work. Feels great. I also noticed that it feels very congruent with what both of you have told me. Joe, you mentioned you like to travel. Travel is in there. You also mentioned you like to stay home. A lot of the rich life is at home. I feel that they are quite amenable and they're agreeable with each other. All great. I actually think that in general, the two of you are quite agreeable, which is really nice. To speak to, but I'm going to give you a challenge. I would like for you to find an area of your rich life that you disagree on. Specifically, you disagree on—

well, probably remodeling the house.

I have been talking a lot about moving into a rental and leaving homeownership behind. Joe has been talking about renovating the house and I'm not sure it's worth it to put all that money into the house. I feel we could live in a smaller place and not have to think about all the upkeep.

That's the disagreement.

That is one.

Yeah.

Okay. And have you resolved it?

No.

Okay.

It's funny, if I'm going to be honest, this is where our dynamic comes into play, because as the person who's historically made the decisions, we're not moving out.

Wow. Yes. Yeah, that's pretty straightforward. Now that I've said that, how do I get more straightforward couples like the two of you?

It was her house, so I— now I moved in.

So are you comfortable knowing that she's made the call? You two are gonna renovate?

I don't think she knows I made the call.

No, I, I had never heard that before.

And what's your reaction to it?

I just think it's funny. I think, you know, I think we will discuss it. Jill has said she was open to renting, so I don't know what that means, just having heard that. Yeah, but I wouldn't force us to move if it meant that much to Jill. But I don't really like all the responsibility that comes with homeowning.

Is there a way for you to absolve yourself of the responsibility and somebody else manages it? Because, like, I don't like it either.

But you rent.

I rent. But let's pretend that I buy. I will one day, I'm sure. It's not like I'm going to be sitting around with a wrench, you know what I mean?

Oh, we hire people to do stuff, but you still have to find the guy who has to find that person.

You?

A lot of times it's me.

Does it have to be?

I think Jo feels that she holds the finances, so I should hold the household stuff. That's not that she makes the money, so then I have to be the drudge.

Okay.

Jo has a hard time when she is holding a lot of things in her head and she feels that she needs to hold all the stuff in her head. And I think this is part of what she was asking me about with the finances was, I need somebody else to be thinking about this stuff. And I think that that's kind of what I'm talking about with the division of the household. I take— mostly take care of the cars and the cats and the house, but Joe does some of the house stuff too.

Joe, would you agree with that? Is that accurate?

Yes, I, I think If I were to categorize, like, what I think one of the biggest issues in our relationship is, is that I feel I do more of the emotional labor, and I feel like I really hold a lot, and it's, it's hard. And then I feel a little resentful when I feel like Meg just kind of skates through.

And as it relates to money, how does that play out?

I guess as it relates to money, kind of ties into the, you know, I, I agree with the feeling of entitlement.

That she feels entitled to retire, right? Does she feel entitled to anything else around money?

We used to have these arguments before, like, you know, or she would say something like, I want to go on vacation, I want to do this thing, and I would feel like I had to decide whether or not we could do that. And then I would say, can we afford it? And then she would say, of course we can. And I'd be like, well, what do you base that on? And she'd say, I don't know, vibes. Um, so that made me feel like I really did the emotional work around the money.

That's quite interesting. It's actually very illuminating. Let me repeat it back from a different perspective. It's almost like we're watching a movie right now, and I'm just going to rotate the camera around just slightly. Tell me how this strikes you. I'm Meg. I grew up, you know, not learning anything about money. I don't need much. In fact, the way I was raised, I shouldn't really be particularly flamboyant with money. Meet my partner. She makes 3 times what I make and lives like a different level of lifestyle with a big TV, etc. And I'm kind of vaguely uncomfortable with this, but I love her. And so we move in and we get together. And I kind of like ordering from Amazon now. I kind of like being able to go out to restaurants. I don't need all this fancy stuff. But gosh, it feels good to be able to do it, especially because we do it together. And gosh, it's— I'm getting older now, and I've been working a long time. I've been doing social work, and I'm ready to retire. And also, we have a lot of money. I mean, surely we do. Look at our house and look at the car. And once in a while we take these vacations and So like, I want to go on vacation. Can we afford it? Yeah. How do you know? Just look around. I mean, there's money. It's here. I don't know how much. I'm not connected to the money at all. I don't know about our portfolio. But surely there's money, we can always afford it. And now it's, it's time for me to retire. And, and I think I am entitled to it. I've worked a long time, we have a lot of money. And so why are we even talking about this? How does that strike you?

Meg, I think most of it was accurate.

How did it feel hearing it?

A little uncomfortable. I do believe from conversations we've had with financial advisors that we have money to retire with. I don't think we don't need to talk about it.

Agreed.

Yeah.

Okay, I agree 100%.

That's why I applied to this show.

Yeah, I appreciate it. I'm so glad you both did. I'm having a great time learning more about you. Hearing that, the part about I don't need a lot, the way I grew up is actually not encouraged to have a lot. And now that I walked into this and I kind of do like spending money once in a while.

Yeah.

Did that strike you?

Absolutely.

Okay.

I like it.

There's nothing wrong with that. I actually love hearing you say that.

Yeah.

I wish more women were unapologetic about, I like money. I like spending it. I like it all. That's actually awesome. We are— we in general are too timid around money. We shrink ourselves, in particular women. It's like, well, like, yeah, I like my sweater, but like, I got it on sale, TJ Maxx. And I'm like, I didn't ask you how much it costs. I just like that you look great in it. And so I love hearing you say, I like money. Yeah, that's really cool. Okay, Joe, how did it feel hearing that camera rotated around as I went through that exercise?

It felt like, yes.

Really? Why?

I mean, I think, I think it's pretty accurate. It's less so now, but there was this kind of tension between, I don't need to pay attention to the money because I don't need nice things, and I could live a simple life. So if you want to live like a fancier life, well, like, you could figure it out, you know? And then meanwhile, I'd be like, okay, like, you're not buying Chanel bags, but you want to stay at Post Ranch Inn.

So I mean, it's a very nice hotel.

Which we, we are still debating.

Yeah, okay.

I'm like, anything over St. Regis is a waste.

It's very interesting that your response was like, yes. I, I don't get the sense that the two of you are doing any sort of jabbing. I sometimes see that when I speak to couples. To me, I can see that where it's like you kind of benefited from not really paying attention to money and also experiencing this nice life. I think that's fair to say. And I also think I would have done the same thing if I walked in and I had grown up same way you and my wife had more money and she had different tastes. And I would just totally— it is natural to be like, wow, it is sure nice to be able to go to the grocery store and get whatever I want. What I love is that you have recognized this in recent times. Meg, you've started learning about money. You're having conversations. That to me is very promising. I don't think you can erase what— like the way that you grew up and how you related to money for 15 years. You didn't pay attention. Okay, you didn't have to. Joe was taking control. Obviously, that wears on her. She said that. Am I reading it correctly that you both recognize that and now you agree you both need more of a financial partnership. Is that accurate or no?

Yeah, I think so. And the teasing is, is affectionate. I'm not— yeah, I don't have any— there's no, like, I just think it's funny.

Yeah.

Do you see it that way?

I do. Okay. Yeah.

The truth is, if I didn't have to learn more about our finances, I wouldn't.

I mean, truthfully, that's another honest statement.

But I want to because it's important to Joe. And, you know, I might not be doing it as much as Joe wants, so I have a little attitude change I think I need to make.

Part of that attitude change I will encourage you is that it is great to do it because Joe wants you to and she needs a partner. I agree. But also it's important for you because if Joe gets hit by another BMW, and we know BMW drivers are horrible, You are left with a somewhat complex financial situation that a middle class upbringing is not prepared for you to succeed in.

Yeah.

And she's handled a lot of this burden for decades. And so it's actually really important that you become conversant. You don't have to be to the skill level that she is. She works in a different industry and she's been doing this. That's not— no, but that's not the expectation. But in the same way that I once told my wife when we were talking about money early, I said very similar thing. I said, look, you have to get better at this. We're talking about money scarcity and money abundance. And we've talked about this, we've been through it, and with love, with affection, like, this is a problem. It's causing us problems, and you have to get good at this. And she took that. Like, that doesn't feel good to hear.

Yeah.

She took it. She learned. She attended some money psychology class. I still haven't asked her because I'm afraid I'm gonna get too mad if I find out what— who else was she learning about money psychology from besides her husband? But okay, she did it. And it wasn't just because I needed a partner in the same way that you, Joe. It's that I know that one day something might happen and I need her to be equipped.

Yeah, that is actually a fight that we had pretty recently. We had signed up for the, the course. Meg agreed that she would kind of be the one who drives it forward, and it didn't really happen. And then we were, we were driving back from LA and we were saying, well, should we drop it? Should we? And she's like, well, I have all this stuff going on, so I can't do it right now. I said, okay, well, when you, uh, when this stuff is over, will you do it? And she goes, probably not. That's when I tried the, well, you know, I feel like if nothing else, it'll set you through, like, how every— like, it'll walk you through how everything is set up, and then you'll understand in case something happens to me. And then this is where I think the stubborn optimism comes in, and like, just like, well, I'll figure it out.

So is the implication, if something happened, I'm stubborn enough that I could figure it out and make things work out?

That's, I think, how I feel deep down inside. Yeah. But definitely we've been paying for your coaching class and we have not attended a single session.

You all know it's not like a gym. Like, I actually want you there. Yeah.

No, no.

Don't come. We just want to run you. I really want you there. I want to see you on these calls.

Okay.

But it's my— it was my job and I did not get it together.

This is very— I'm glad you shared this example. This is super revealing. Finding the why of why this is important. You know, Joe's told you like, hey, I need a partner. Okay. And that, that helped you to a certain point, but going all in to the level, because we're talking about some pretty serious stuff. We're talking about real money. We're talking about you're within years of retirement. It kind of requires all hands on deck. You need to be kind of hitting your marks and things need to be happening. The days of like, well, we'll figure it out later. Like, they're sort of here.

Yeah.

Especially because, Meg, I know you're the one who wants to retire, so I'm seeing the point. And I think Joe's request for you to step up as a partner is totally fair. And I think you demonstrating that and reminding her, like, here's what you said, here's what I've done, and in fact, I'm even doing 1, 2, and 3 next, would go a huge way. Isn't it interesting looking at the gender dynamics in this same-sex couple. It's one of the reasons that I love my same-sex guests that come on the show, because they really challenge our beliefs about what gender is and how we relate to each other with money. Very often you will find that something that exists in heterosexual relationships is actually almost identical in same-sex relationships. And then you go, wait a second, so this isn't about a man This is about maybe the person who earns more.

Wow.

I never thought about that. Here we have Joe earning more, has been earning more for decades. And what does she do? She naturally takes over managing the money. Haven't we heard this story before? Then we have the other partner, Meg, who's earning less. And what does she do? She goes, ah, it's fine. Joe's got it. She's better at this anyway. Haven't we heard this story a million times? One of my greatest joys on this podcast is to show you the gender dynamics that exist in America. Also, the assumptions that we make. Oh, this has to be something that a woman does or a man does. And then finally, to allow you to choose what role you want to play in your rich life. It doesn't have to be that way just because your mom did it or your dad did it. You can choose. We get that gift. Take advantage of it. If you want beautiful flowers on your desk, get the flowers. If you want to be the one who manages the investment portfolio, great. Just make sure that your partner is involved and knows what's going on. It does not have to be something that just because your dad did it, you did it. Just because your mom did it, you did it. You get to choose. And that is the beautiful part of your rich life. It's yours. Nobody else's. When I was starting my business, if someone had told me about infrastructure and systems, I would have just ignored them, honestly. But years later I can look back and see the wisdom of having simple business systems. I have literally spent millions of dollars disentangling bad systems that we put into IWT along the way. So if you have the chance to start your business in a simple way, I recommend checking out NetSuite. NetSuite is the AI-powered business management suite that securely connects all of your data. Trusted by over 40,000 customers, NetSuite brings your financials, inventories, commerce, HR, and CRM into a single source of truth. And now with NetSuite Next, you can automatically surface custom insights with AI agents working alongside you to solve problems, answer questions, and even handle routine work. NetSuite is customized for a wide range of industries, so it supports the way your business works. Whether your company earns millions or even hundreds of millions, it's time for NetSuite Next, where your business meets AI. If I'd had this system back when I was building IWT, it would have changed everything for me. For the first time ever, you can try NetSuite Next for free. If your revenues are at least in the 7 figures, go to netsuite.ai/ramit. Built for every industry, ready for every boardroom. netsuite.ai/ramit. If you had to describe your mindset with your money today in a word or two, how would you describe it?

Happy.

Mm-hmm. I just swing wildly back and forth between terrified and elated.

Mm.

That's interesting. So we have happy and elated, which is a nice combo, and then also terrified. I would've said, uh, Meg is the optimist and Joe is the worrier. Would that be accurate?

Totally, yes.

That's interesting. Okay, if those are the roles today, will those roles work for you in retirement?

I don't think so.

How come?

Well, Joe's already said it doesn't really work for her to be the only one who worries about it.

Yep, yep.

So no.

But it would be great for you though, right? Oh sure, you're just like, yeah, it's fine, it'll be fine. Okay, so that won't work. What roles would work for the two of you in retirement?

I don't want Meg to worry, but meeting more in the middle. I need to be both less elated and less terrified.

So, like, you want to bring it into the middle?

I want to bring it in the middle where I—

you've been at the same place for a long time at work. Are you worried? No, I don't think so. I don't think you're worried about work.

No worry. I have no thoughts about my job when I'm not there.

Are you good at your job?

Yes, very.

Look at how fast you said that. That's amazing. So you're not worried about your job. Are you concerned? Is that the primary descriptor of you at work? Concerned?

No. At work, I'm good at it, and I'm bored. Whoa. Yeah.

Leave the bored part out of it for just my example.

Okay.

Good at it.

Yes.

Can you do the same with money?

Objectively speaking, I'm pretty good at it.

So then why worry?

So, you know, I do compliance work. So I'm kind of—

That explains everything.

Yeah, right?

Where can it go wrong?

And it's for Bank of America. Right?

If I had known that, I wouldn't have accepted you on the podcast.

No, I disclosed that in the interview and I was told it was okay because it wasn't Wells Fargo.

That's it.

All right.

Okay, so go ahead.

I wanted to say something because I think we left out something about when we got together. We were together and apart for about 4 years, and then the crash happened. Yeah. And I was living in my own apartment, and Jo had her house, and she had just had a breakup. She had the full mortgage of the house, and we decided that we were going to move in together. I had some problems with my apartment, and we just decided I could put my rent towards Jo's mortgage. To and help her out. And with them, we would be living together, which we wanted to do anyway. But the crash was pretty traumatic for Jo. And I think some of this anxiety that we have here comes from that time. Wow. Jo was really riding high when I met her in 2005. And in 2009, it was just a shit show. It was, it was really bad. So I just, I wanted to let you know about that because I think that informs a lot of the fear.

Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. So the crash happened, finances were really tight. How else do you think it showed up for Jo?

I believe she lost a bunch of her savings in the crash, and B of A was a villain. I'm not exactly sure about this, so checking in with you about this, but she finally had her single-family home and she'd had it for a few years, and then she was really struggling to pay the mortgage. And I think there was some feeling of failure around that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Jo? I mean, it was traumatic just because it was a horrible time in the, in the industry and You know, it was just so much bad news. And then I had bought the house kind of at the top, and I took a $100,000 pay cut. I mean, it was, it was a good chunk of my income was gone. And then there were a ton of layoffs. I mean, I wasn't laid off, but I could have been at any moment. Um, and then we merged. We were forced to buy Merrill Lynch, so then we were merged, and that was terribly uncomfortable. It was just It was not a good time. Right. And just like being a public menace.

Yeah. Does that stay with you today? What happened? That feeling in '09?

Perhaps it's like a little bit of a trauma response to, like, to the point of, like, losing my house. And as somebody where stability and security is the ultimate fear for me. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

It's very helpful. Thank you. These things really affect the way that we handle our money. And so often I speak to guests and they come on here and they are acting irrationally with money. And I mean, putting big quotes around irrational because all of us are irrational with money. It's totally human. And you just look at them, you go, what are you doing? Like, this is so obvious. But one of the reasons that I love this, being able to spend hours with you, is that I get to understand your story all the way back to childhood. And those things echo for decades, decades. Something that mom said, which actually was just from grandma, and then we're behaving this way. And something that happened as recently as 20 years ago is actually, like, in many ways so visceral and vivid to us that we still operate as if it was yesterday. So very helpful. I would now like to take a look at the numbers. What was it like putting the CSP together for the both of you?

I think it was a little exciting.

It was fun.

Yeah.

Yes. Yeah.

Good.

It taught me a lot about our finances too.

Good.

Yeah.

That's great. That's the entire purpose. I love it. Not too complicated. Gives you the core insights of what you need and allows you to make some good decisions about what your rich life is. Cool. Let's take a look. Joe, can you read the word in bold and the number next to it for this entire net worth box, please?

Assets, $2,173,000. Investments, $4,397,368. Savings: $133,300. Debt: $510,400. Total net worth: $6,193,268. Great.

What do you think about these numbers?

Um, I won capitalism.

Wow.

I mean, the not scared part of me thinks like I did as well as really could have been expected for me.

Is this the first guest on this show who's ever acknowledged that they are wealthy? This is Wow. Although you did qualify by saying in our area we are upper middle class.

Yes. Yes.

Which is not true. You're wealthy, but well done. You did win at capitalism. I agree. Actually, both of you won at capitalism. What do you think about these numbers?

I think they're very good.

Great. How do you feel looking at them?

A little flabbergasted.

Why?

I never in my life before I met Joe thought I would be in the 7 figures.

Multiple 7 figures.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So what does it mean to you that you are?

Maybe it means I could retire.

Perhaps.

It means Joe did a lot for us because this is mostly Joe.

That's powerful. Mostly Joe. Okay, that, that could be true. And you. Do you see your role in these numbers as well?

Not a lot. I'm in the 401 stuff. I put a couple hundred thousand dollars away.

I speak to a lot of couples that often the man is earning and his wife, she might be earning or she might stay at home, stay home permanently or with children when they're young. And many of them have done really well too. And when I asked them about their finances, it's much more common that she sees herself in these. She goes, yeah, I was at home taking care of the kids, or I was maintaining our lifestyle, planning the calendar, etc. She may not have been earning as much as he was, but she sees herself. Does that connect with you at all?

I think that I have been a very good emotional partner, and I think that I have supported Joe through all the stuff. Not always in the way that she asks for, but I am part of the household.

You're also investing $20,000 a year. Yeah, that's quite a bit.

Yeah.

Okay, good. I love that you have acknowledged Joe had a lot to do with these numbers. I think that's true. I think, Joe, you would acknowledge that as well, right? Yeah. I just love the confidence. Like when I asked you, like, are you good at your job? You're like, yeah, I'm really good. Yes. And I know that you're really good with money.

Yeah.

And but what I also want to emphasize is not just Joe, it's the two of you. Partnership does not mean that each has to earn the same amount. In fact, one partner can earn zero and still be an important part of the rich life.

Yeah, cool.

Joe, how do you feel looking at these numbers?

I feel good about it.

No, my wife doesn't allow me to use the word good because I also like— I'm like, I don't know how to talk about my feelings sometimes, so I use the wheel of emotions. She's like, you need to give me a word besides good. We're talking about $6 million here.

I feel— I feel proud.

Yeah, yeah, tell me more.

That's not anything I ever expected. I also, um, I made a lot of financial mistakes in my youth. I spent for dopamine. I gambled like an addict. Wow. I mean, I did some crazy stuff in the stock market. And it's really also a testament to you can kind of get shit together. And like you say, like a big salary solves a lot of problems. Yeah. But also it could have gone badly and it didn't because— and I think also Meg having a stabilizing influence. Has been really helpful in that.

I love that. Yeah, I love these little gestures that you give each other. It's, it's noticed. I appreciate it. I also think, um, one of my favorite answers when I ask people how they feel is when they say, I feel proud. I really love that. That's how I feel when I look at our numbers. I feel proud. I feel proud of knowing all these decisions I've made since the age of 14. I feel proud of the risks I took. I feel proud, especially that my wife is extremely conversant with money. Like, that took a lot of work and it took partnership. So I feel proud. So I love hearing you say you're proud too.

I love that too.

Let's go to the income. Meg, can you read your combined gross monthly income, please?

34,166.

Great. You make $409,000 a year as a household. Did you know that?

Yes.

Joe knew it. Did you know it?

I did. But Joe feels that I should cop to that. I've only known it for the past 3 months.

That doesn't count. You did not know it.

That's how I feel. Thank you, Joe.

Come on.

You did 3 months ago. Everybody cleans their house before the house cleaner comes over. Everybody does their numbers before they talk to me.

All right.

So you're netting, just so everybody knows, you're netting $236,000 a year, which is a phenomenal salary. That's awesome. Your fixed costs are at 71%, a little higher than I would expect, but I believe you have a home equity line of credit. Is that correct?

Yes.

And when is that paid off?

16 months. And then we dropped to 41%, I think.

Amazing. 41% is like way— it's one of the lower numbers, especially with the high of an income. It's fantastic. Great. No questions. I don't have any questions when someone has a 41% fixed costs. You could do what you want. Investments are at 5%, although we should note that you are contributing $4,000 a month to your 401s. Great. So you're just contributing a ton of money. That's awesome. Your savings are at 15%. I want to note that you have money set aside for vacations, $650 a month. You have money set aside for family travel. And you have money set aside for large purchases. What would that be?

We're saving for remodel and, uh, we'll probably need a new car in the next 3 years.

Amazing. I want everybody to notice how wealthy people do it. They set money aside for what is important to them. And it is obvious. I can see your fingerprints all over this CSP. I can see the kind of life that you like to live. That's what I want to see. I want it to be so obvious and personal that I'm like, this could not be anyone else's but the two of you. Great.

The CSP helped us with that. We did not have buckets before for certain things. We just had a lump. And this has been very helpful, especially to me, because when I look at $400,000, I'm just like, okay, Yeah, that's a lot of money. But if I see that we have, you know, $5,000 saved up for a vacation, then I know what we can spend for a vacation.

It's clarity. Yeah, it's the difference between having a junk drawer versus a specialized drawer for your utensils. And in your case, it's bigger than a junk drawer because $400K is a ton of money. So it would be more like a junk pantry, and you're just like, what the hell is even in there?, but now you're breaking it down and you can tune things. Hey, I want more on a vacation or less on a car. No problem. It's just a matter of flipping the switch. Finally, down to guilt-free spending. What's left is 9% or $1,845 a month. I should emphasize that you've already been putting money aside in savings for things like vacations, travel, large purchases. So here we have what's left, which I'm gonna assume is eating out, random classes, things like that. Is that what this is?

Yeah, yeah, because the vacation's already covered. Great.

Yeah. Would you say this number is accurate?

More or less.

More or less?

Yeah, maybe within what, like $1,000?

Oh, for sure.

Okay.

I mean, because some of the kind of slop goes in, like the 15% extra that you add on, which then becomes a big number when the fixed costs are high.

So that's right, your miscellaneous at 15% is $1,800. Which is a lot, but that is just because your overall income is very high. So yeah, a little bit of slop is okay. It's really important for people to hear that after about $150K, people stop tracking stuff, and I don't really need them to track the price of apples. It doesn't matter when you make $150K plus, but all that I ask is you're hitting your major buckets. If you are hitting your major buckets, you really don't need to track tiny minutia. And so if you got a little bit of slop, fine with me. Cool. What do you notice about the CSP as I go through it? Anything catch your eye?

I mean, we have debt.

You do have debt. That is your house, right?

The house and the HELOC. Yeah.

Yeah. And the HELOC, which is getting paid off soon.

Okay.

A lot of people, particularly middle class version of what they've been told, like debt is bad. And in general, I think that's a wise lesson. I don't think the average person should be Taking out debt, with the exception of a mortgage, maybe a car loan. Yeah, but it's a good lesson. However, what's the number right below debt? Yeah, $6.1 million. You have a mortgage and you have a home equity line of credit. But I would encourage you not to approach this with the— with like somebody making $55,000 a year who's in $20K of credit card debt. That's not this. Y'all are well managed here. I have no concerns. I have no critiques over your CSP. In fact, take it off the screen. We don't even need this CSP on screen. There's nothing to talk about. You have millions of dollars and you're saving $40K, $50K a year. We got nothing to talk about on that. What we should talk about is the primary question of retirement. What do you think the answer is? Can you retire?

Yeah. Okay. She says yes.

The optimist.

Yes.

Okay. And Joe?

Uh, Meg, 100%. The question is, when can I?

Okay. And is it today?

No.

A couple of years?

Fingers crossed.

5 years?

Oh, for sure. I mean, if I worked until 65, we'd have more money than we knew what to do with.

Oh, I don't want that. I don't.

I'm serious.

No, I agree. I don't want that either. So there's—

so we want to find the balance.

We want to find the balance.

Okay. The number where you have enough comfortable with a nice room to clear, but not where you have so much you're like, this, what's the point, right? We all agree.

Some of the discussion that we have around retirement is Joe saying if I retire at 65, then she may have to work longer than she wants to.

And do you want that?

I don't.

Are you okay with it?

I don't want her to work longer than she wants to.

So yeah, because you're saying, hey, we can We don't need to spend all this money on all this stuff. Yeah, retire and let's spend our time together.

All right.

Meg and Joe are the perfect example of a couple that has not gotten on the same page about money, and instead they are letting fears stop them from living their rich life. They both want to retire. They've said that they are both ready to live their rich life. They've articulated that. So what is stopping them? What if it's not actually money? And what if you ended up in this very situation yourself? Most people, this is unimaginable because their entire life worldview is, I don't have enough money. So they just assume that for the rest of their life, I'm not going to have enough money. So I'm always going to have to check the prices at the grocery store and worry about, can we retire and are we going to have enough? Many of you have not accepted that at some point you are going to have more than enough. You haven't accepted it because you don't understand your numbers. You haven't run projections. You don't use the CSP and you go by feelings and vibes. And that is what I am desperately trying to change on this podcast. But once you do and you embrace it and you understand that you've put your money aside, it's growing, it just needs time to cook. One day that you can predict down to the month, you will have more than you know what to do with. And my question for you is, are you going to change the way you feel about money then? Because allow me to be the bearer of very bad news. You're not. You're not going to change the way you feel about money unless you start working on it right now. That is what we are seeing with Meg and Joe. They are allowing this huge, likely very irrational fear to stop them from living a life that they both want to live. Let me see if I can help them get out of this.

Okay.

Now I have to ask a question about these financial advisors. Are you all financial advisor shopping? You know how people doctor shop? They, they expect a diagnosis and then they go to the doctor. Doctor's like, ah, you're fine. Like, uh, take an Advil and go to sleep. And then they go to the next doctor and they go to the next doctor. Like, if you've seen 3 financial advisors, but then you came to me, Joe, what are you hoping for here?

The financial advisors, uh, I liked our first one a lot, but she moved out of state. Um, and so we kind of did a, an advisor for kind of different stages. So the first one was like, we don't know anything. Then we lived with her plan for a while. And then as I got more serious about thinking I really don't want to work till 65, then we spoke to somebody else. And now the third one is actually an eMoney subscription, so I don't really count them as an advisor, but it's so that I have access to the software.

Why don't you just get a real advisor?

Yes, that is actually Next, because I need, need help. I don't know. It's hard to find one and it's okay.

Well, I'm just glad, I'm glad it's not advisor shopping. So that's good. Great. We spoke to our partners at Facet and as you know, they have a lot of, um, CFPs and fiduciaries. They're all fiduciaries and we had them run some scenarios.

Exciting.

Yes. I love a good scenario.

Mm-hmm.

Because then you can choose. Okay, and so no, there's no one's going to tell you what to do. It's your money, your rich life. But I like to have different scenarios just so I can understand some tradeoffs. And when it comes to money, I find that very few of us think in terms of scenarios. We're like, I want a car, or I want to renovate or whatever. But like, what does it mean for me 5 years, 20 years down the line? So if you don't mind, I'm going to give you 3 scenarios. And You can tell me your initial reaction after each one, and then we'll get to the end and we can talk about it.

Exciting.

So we gave our partners at Facet your CSP, your investment portfolio breakdown, your Social Security statements, as well as some loose parameters on what we understood about your retirement goals. And I'm gonna show you 3 versions of your future. Every single one of these scenarios. Is financially viable.

Great.

The question is, which one the two of you actually want? The assumptions for each of these scenarios: end of plan age is 95 years old.

Okay.

It's quite late in life because of what we know about parental history. And that's end of plan age is 95 for Joe.

Okay.

Meg's pension begins as soon as she steps away from work.

That's right.

Both file for Social Security age 70. Spending is based on your current CSP growing at 3% per year. Okay, that's inflation. And when the mortgage is paid off, that cost disappears. Those are our assumptions. I think they're all pretty reasonable. Scenario 1: you each retire at age 65. That means Meg retires in roughly 2 years. Joe retires in about 8 years. Spending stays as listed on the CSP today, $16,800 per month. Net worth at Joe's age of 95, $14.1 million.

Whoa.

What's that reaction, Meg?

I don't know how that could be possible.

Does that seem higher or lower than you thought?

Oh, higher. Way, way higher. I mean, we have $6 million now, so I'm, I'm just assuming that it would go down, but it's actually going up, right?

And that's with Joe living to 95. Joe, what's your reaction to that?

That's dumb. I don't want to die with $14 million.

Yeah, we don't, we don't have anybody to give it to.

Okay.

Wow.

Already this is quite interesting. Let's keep going. So in this case, Joe, you're working for 8 more years to potentially die with $14 million. And your reaction to that was?

That's dumb.

That's dumb. Yes. Okay. Where would the money go?

Nieces and nephews and charity. They can have some, but not— no, they don't need $14 million. Yeah.

This is very savvy. I like them. I like these charities. I love my nieces and nephews. But like, $14 million. That's, that's a huge amount of money. This is good. My observation on this plan, this is just my personal opinion, is that this is the most financially responsible plan. It builds up way more than you ever possibly could use or need. And primarily that comes from Joe continuing to work for 8 more years. So that's how it happens. I think it's also probably the one most likely to produce more resentment, because if I'm going to work and I'm like, what's this fucking money for?

Totally.

It's just like, why? So that's scenario 1. A good, a very good option.

Great.

Scenario 2, Meg retires at 65. Joe retires at 60. That's roughly 2 years from now that you both retire, and we are going to add $60,000 a year in discretionary spending starting next year. At the age of 95 for Joe, you will have $5.6 million.

What do you think? That actually feels pretty good because we do have— I mean, your mom was 98 when she died. Yeah. And my parents, my family lives a long time, and my mother has dementia, so that gives like an insurance policy for needing some nicer end-of-life care.

A lot you can do with $5.6 million, especially in terms of, you know, there's reverse mortgages and all kinds of complex financial instruments available for people in your situation. Um, some things I want to note is that, uh, in your final years of working, Joe, your bonuses would really help cover those one-time expenses, the HELOC, car, large trip, home renovations, and then you're out. That's it. Retired life. Quite a good life, I think. That's option 2. Let's go to scenario 3. Scenario 3, both of you step away and retire at the end of this year. Joe's smiling. I haven't even gotten to the numbers yet. Meg's— Meg looked a little anxious. Meg, what do you say?

Mike's like, don't get me too excited.

Yeah, that's great. I, I'm a little anxious, but also there's two things. One is Joe would love to step away right now, which is awesome. And the other thing is the other financial advisors have said to us, you could retire right now and you'd be fine. So I'm just hearing that again, sort of, is feeling like what? Good. Oh yeah, happy.

Okay, good. So like a second opinion.

Yeah.

Okay, great.

Let's keep going. Scenario 3: you both step away at the end of this year.

Yeah.

Starting next year, you add $90,000 a year of discretionary spending. Joe, at the age of 95, you will have $3.5 million, plus of course any Equity that you have in the home could be leveraged as necessary. Any rental equity, that kind of stuff. Joe, you can still access your 401 using the rule of 55, and you would need more portfolio withdrawals in early years before Social Security kicks in at age 70. And there is a risk of a market downturn during that time. A lot of times retirees will use dynamic management. Like, they'll be like, oh, things are bad, we're just going to cut our spending for those years. There's lots of ways around it, but just to let you know, that's a real risk. And of course, you could file for Social Security earlier, you could pick up a part-time job, you could, as I said, reduce your discretionary spending. Lots of levers you could pull. I want to make an observation that in this scenario, Scenario 3, your assets are depleting over time. So you end up with less, but at the age of 95, to end up with $3.5 million, right?

It's a lot.

It's a ton of money. And of course, you have a lot of control over that. If you feel it's getting too close, which, you know, what's too close to $3.5 million, you could always decrease your spending a little bit. Let me jump in here because I know we're throwing around a lot of complicated terms like the Rule of 55 and dynamic management. And when it comes to people approaching retirement, a lot of them have one or two big looming questions. Do I have enough? What if the market takes a downturn? And you should definitely account for all of those questions when you are planning your own retirement. Now, you can do this yourself by having several different levers to pull to prepare for when times get tough, and they will at some point during your retirement. Or you can enlist the help of an advisor to help you do this. Such as our partners at Facet, and they can help set you up for success. Now, when you make this plan, you can start to mitigate risk. You can make sure that you are allocating your assets correctly so that even if there is a market downturn, you're okay. Now, before Meg and Joe decide on which scenario is right for them, let me refresh your memory on what each scenario means. Scenario 1: Meg and Joe each retire at 65 years old Their day-to-day spending stays the same as it is today, about $16,800 a month. And when Joe is 95, their net worth is $14.1 million. Scenario 2: Meg and Joe retire in 2 years and spend an additional $60,000 per year. That translates to about $21,800 total per month, a big jump from Scenario 1. And their net worth at Joe's age 95 is still $5.6 million. More than enough. Scenario 3: Meg and Joe retire at the end of this year, 2026, and increase their spending to an additional $90,000 a year, which is roughly $24,300 per month total. Joe's net worth at age 95: $3.5 million. Still plenty of money. Notice that with each scenario, we've dramatically increased their discretionary spending and we've reduced the time until they each retire. This is by design because I want them to really understand the point. The only thing preventing them from retiring, it's not the numbers, it's how they feel. Now let's see what they want to do. What do you feel about these 3 scenarios?

I always assumed our money was going to decrease and possibly we would just use it all up. By the end, like my parents did, um, they didn't have that much money. But I don't understand how we can increase our discretionary spending and still end up with $5 million in the second scenario or $3 million in the third.

Joe, what's the answer?

The assets will just continue to grow faster than we're drawing them down. Like, it's kind of like a snowball. As the numbers get bigger, it's just harder and harder to spend them.

Meg, does that connect with you, or you still feel confused?

I understand that. Then my confusion is, why is Joe worried about our retirement?

It's a very good question.

That's a very good question. Joe? It's a very good question. I just wanted to actually clarify something, that, um, I don't have any doubts about you being able to retire at all. I think when we would have these conversations before and I would kind of drag my feet and I would ask the question, can we afford for you to retire? I think I actually even said in a way to get you involved, like, pitch it to me. Like, not so that I be like, I'm saying yes or no, but like, take a look at what would you get like net from your pension. And when you average out all the other stuff that you wouldn't be paying, like, what kind of impact would it have like on our finances? And so that's what I was really hoping you would do. Because I wanted you to like engage with it. But I think you read that as me saying like, well, maybe we can't. And what I'm saying is like, God, I wish you were a partner in this and not just like asking me if it's okay, right? 'Cause that's kind of what I would love to get past like in this next financial, like I don't wanna be the one who says like it's okay or it's not okay.

Mhm.

Like as the, the final answer, right?

Mhm.

We're kind of maybe having two different conversations about that.

What do you think, Meg?

I hear that.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's interesting to me because, um, I find the two of you to be, um, surprisingly direct most of the time, but that was really indirect.

That was super indirect.

I would not have picked up on that at all. And I think realistically to expect Meg, who kind of grew up not really connected with the knowledge of money, and then for the last 15+ years is kind of like, you've handled it in this dynamic that the two of you have, like, to expect somebody to like come up with scenarios including pension withdrawals and drawdowns, it's like not realistic. I do think saying, hey, I need you to be a partner, That is fair. And actually, when you said that, it worked. So that part I respect. I actually think you two are at your best when you are direct. It is so cool to see. I think you are not at your best when you are indirect.

I think that's true.

Fair. Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, cool. So we've got 3 scenarios without choosing one. How does it just feel to hear these scenarios?

Mick.

Yeah, yeah, that's really cool. Like, all of them work, they're all conservative.

Yeah.

And you end up with millions of dollars. Yeah, like, you won. How about for you, Joe? How does it feel to hear these scenarios?

It feels really good because it kind of balances my desire to retire and still have a nice life and still feel safe. So it's good.

That's great.

Yeah, dude.

Do you want to choose one? It doesn't have to be in stone, but I just kind of want to know, like, what are you going to choose?

I may not actually be ready to retire at the end of this year. I have some things I need to do in my job to get ready.

So you're suggesting what?

The one where I retire at 65.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay, that'd be roughly 2 years from now.

A year and a half.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, well, Joe?

I think also scenario 2, just because of what I'm learning. There kind of needs to be a ramp up to planning for this, and I— we have not started planning.

I totally respect that. It's a big life change.

Yeah.

It's everything from finances to like, what are we going to do all day?

Right.

What's our lifestyle going to be? If we're going to do a renovation, do we do it now or later? There's like a lot of questions to ask, but just like mentally.

Yeah.

And emotionally. Hey, are we ready to embrace this new chapter?

Actually, next week we're starting couples counseling because it's such a large transition.

Good.

It'll be our pre-retirement counseling.

You're doing this before you retire.

Oh, yeah.

You didn't even know when you were going to retire, but you're like, hey, we got to start talking about this. It's no surprise that you are so successful financially. People who are very successful plan for things before they need it. That is awesome. That's awesome. I love hearing this. Yeah, I feel grateful to be involved in this conversation, but truthfully, I feel that you would have found a way anyway. I'm just a little grateful that I could maybe nudge you in the right direction. You know, that always feels good for me.

I feel grateful.

Yeah, thank you. I feel very peaceful about it.

Yeah, yeah.

I was still feeling a little adversarial coming in. Maybe a little worried that one of us is going to get yelled at for whatever reason, especially you.

Those scenarios, are they fleshed out? I mean, is it something that we can look at?

Of course, we can send you more specific details. And of course, I would encourage you, if you engage with Facet, they can pick it right back up there. Or if you run your own scenarios, which I think you too should, then you will be able to fine-tune some of the details. I think one of the benefits as you get closer to retirement, it becomes less hand-wavy, like, hey, we're putting aside, you know, like 18% invested. That's great in your, in your 20s, 30s, 40s, like you're going to crush it. But as you get closer, you want to really start fine-tuning these scenarios with like, what year are we going to withdraw from Social Security? Should we take 401s first or our Roth withdrawals first? Like, it becomes somewhat complex. And when you have millions of dollars, we're talking about like big money here. That's why for a very specific group of people, I say like, hey, if you want to work with a financial advisor, great. Just don't pay AUM. It makes no sense. But like getting this stuff right and fine-tuned makes a lot of sense.

Yeah, yeah.

By the way, um, Joe, you mentioned that, uh, Meg is still going to get her pension forever, but you will have to figure out these drawdowns, and there was some question about the emotional labor of that. Yeah, one suggestion I want to make to you is that, uh, our partners at Facet, they also do basically a simulated paycheck. So they take a look at where all your money is and then find out how much you need, and then they will basically pay you a paycheck from your money every month. So you don't have to deal with this stuff.

Oh, I like that.

Basically, when you have millions of dollars, as they say, if you have a problem that money can solve, you don't really have a problem, right? I would not let you walk out of this room thinking you have 30 years of emotional labor of figuring out where the money's coming from. Don't do that. Somebody else can do it for you. It can happen very easily. And y'all should just be spending it and enjoying it. That would be my dream.

That would be lovely for you. I mean, and for me, but, and I mean, yes, that would be great.

As you go back home and you start to plan a little bit more carefully, you have scenario 2 as kind of like a base case. Maybe you test it and you go, hey, instead of 18 months, let's make it 16 months or 20 months. Do you have any concerns about getting derailed from your plan?

I've been known to drop the ball. I think maybe calendaring in not only our money meetings but other money tasks might be, might be helpful to me.

Definitely, yes. What else? What I want you to do here is embrace your role as somebody who has over $6 million. How would that person behave?

That person would need to know a lot more about their investments.

Great.

So what would they do?

At our money meetings, maybe find out more from Joe.

So you'd ask your partner. Okay, good.

Ask my partner.

What else?

And then take a look at all the accounts. And then what would I do?

Can I give you a metaphor? I would love Okay, so when you grew up, if you wanted to have some people over for dinner or lunch or something, what would you serve them?

Probably sandwiches or salad. Yeah.

Great. What if you, as a partner who has $6 million, if you want to have a couple of friends over, what might your options be?

Oh, anything I wanted.

Yeah, you could make sandwiches or—

or get it catered or have a chef come in and do it.

All of the above. Yeah. Great.

Love it.

Okay.

Yeah.

Now apply the same thing to your life.

I'm drawing a blank. Okay. I don't know what to do.

That's okay. So right now what you have done is you've done it all yourself, as if you have to solve everything yourself, as if you have to make the sandwiches.

Yeah.

No, you don't.

Okay.

Joe can help, but I actually think that Joe has done a lot And I think it's time for you to use some of your resources and become really good at this. So what could you do? You could hire a coach. You could attend our money coaching program, do a Q&A. You could, um, read the book. Uh, you could get an accountability buddy and read the book together. You could run it through AI, and then you could speak to the advisors at Facet or whatever advisor you chose.. And before you come to the money meeting, you could say, Joe, here are the scenarios I came up with.

Hmm.

Tell me what you think. Let's stress test this. All of this shows me two things. Number one, you don't have to do it alone.

Yeah.

Okay. You can get help. Coaches, books, advisors, all the above. And second, it shows something really positive to Joe that you would take the initiative to go do that.

Yeah.

What do you think?

She would love that. Yeah. Yeah, she would really love that.

I actually think it's time for you to spend a little money on your education.

Yeah, it's time.

Do it. That's what the money is for.

Okay.

And I know Jo's going to love it because she loves classes.

I do love classes.

So what I'm asking you to do, Meg, I think, is step into your wealth.

Mhm.

It's all the stuff that you've implicitly learned over the last 15, 20 years, but now it's with your money. How does a wealthy person act? And I'm like, I'm putting on a new shirt. I'm putting on a new set of glasses. I'm looking at the world differently because, yes, I was raised that way. But through luck and through fortune and hard work, we are at this place, and I accept who we are.

Can I add a piece to the homework?

Yeah.

I would like to feel like if something happened to me, that you could step in because, A, the thought of you muddling through while, like, grieving is just terrible. Since the portfolio is more complicated than, you know, you grew up with, I think, like, respecting your journey through it and respecting the assets, like, is important to, like, kind of honor the work that went into us creating it. And I think that would make me feel better knowing that you would be not just okay if something happened to me.

So being able to step in would be honoring that, that's what you're saying?

I think so. Yeah, I think that's respectful of like our legacy and creating it. It's respectful of the asset itself. Obviously you wouldn't do everything the way like my instinct would be to do it, but to know that like, you know enough to not make like dumb mistakes.

How would Meg show you that she feels comfortable in case something happened to you.

I think we need to do like an SOP, and we need to have like a repository of these are the accounts, these are the passwords, this is who you talk to. And then showing that you understand basic terms and basic concepts, I think, would be enough to show that. Because I mean, how, how terrible to muddle through like after such a big life change. Do we need a trust?

Yes.

Good question. These are the kind of questions that is respecting money.

Yeah.

Do we need a trust? What if I, Meg, die first? What if you are in the hospital and you're unconscious, but I have to make all these payments? Where do I pay the bills? Like, because I can't have you sign something.

Yeah.

You're unconscious. These are the kind of questions— actually, I love that you asked that. Ask 50 more questions like that.

Yeah.

Remember, you don't have to solve the answers yourself. Even Joe doesn't have to solve the answers yourself. You'll have access to advisors and other people who can help you. You're in a very common situation. You have money, you're about to retire.

Cool.

Let's put the plan together. I totally agree. I love the word respect. Respect money. So often we do not respect it. We just spend it. We make it, we spend it. But when my wife and I were talking about money seriously early on was like, we— it's important for us to be good stewards of this money, respect it. And that can mean spending a whole bunch of money on stuff we love. Great. But I want us to talk about our values. I want us to know that if I go, you are not just going to be worried about money and you know what to do with it. So, so much similarity here. I just— I feel exactly what you are going through. Meg, keep asking those questions. Definitely create an SOP, run through it once a year, put it on the calendar, and just then, you know, it's all— it's there. One day, if we ever need it, we're good.

Yeah.

Okay. How do you feel now compared to how you felt when you walked in, Meg?

A lot less nervous. I feel that we have an opportunity to move forward with shared understanding of our money. And I know that I have work to do to, to make that understanding more shared, but that really feels great to me that we— that there's a basis for moving forward. Beautiful.

Opportunity. What a great word. Yeah, it's not a drudgery, it's not like an obligation, it's like an opportunity. It's beautiful.

Cool.

Joe, how do you feel now compared to when you walked in?

Oh, much more at ease.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Um, just like mellow. Yeah.

I like that. Ease. That's how I want people to feel with their money. I want a sense of ease. If I go out and I see a burrito I want to get, I can get it. It's not gonna affect me materially. If I am about to buy a house or a car or something super expensive, I'm gonna slow it down, carefully calculate things, check in with my wife and others, and, and then we'll make a decision when we're at ease. That's a good way to think about a theme for money with the two of you. Uh, Joe, what surprised you about today's money conversation?

How easy it was to get on the same page, or at least in the same chapter. By looking at it from a different perspective and having a third party do a reframe. And so that actually also really speaks to like when we feel stuck, it's, it's good to step outside and we're fortunate enough to be able to do that.

Nice. Meg, what about you? What surprised you?

What kind of financial future is possible for us?

It's actually way bigger.

Yeah.

Than I think the two of you have ever conceived of.

For me, for sure.

One thing that, that got me excited was when I asked what your rich life is and you told me, and I really loved it. It was quite, as you said, like laid back. But since I've seen your numbers, I'm like, oh, they, they don't realize yet what's possible. And to me, that's like possibility, opportunity. So it's like, yeah, we want to go to the garden, the local garden, and we want to make a $2,500 donation. Yeah, we want to go to this Airbnb and we want to hire an archaeologist to take us around and a photographer to follow us around for a half afternoon. Like all the things you already want to do, but just elevated and more meaningful for the two of you, for the people you love.

I feel excited because I have been wanting to do more financial giving, and this seems to me that that is very possible when we retire.

I think you will probably be the leader in your relationship around that.

I think that's probably true.

Probably a great way to get started taking that role on. Chief philanthropist out of the two. That's really cool.

I'm going to make a plaque for my dad.

I feel very confident in Meg and Joe, the way they talk to each other, the realizations that they both had, the acknowledgments they made towards each other. I'm like, this couple is solid. I think Meg is going to take on some of the financial labor that Joe has been working on for so long. I actually think they're going to connect more about money. Especially in a way that Joe is going to reveal more of her fears around money. And my hope, like, this would be extra credit A+, is that they recalibrate their relationship. Right now, Joe has been the gatekeeper, the one who decides if they can go on vacation. And Meg has been the one asking and also saying, hey, I feel entitled to retire. I want to go on vacation. Of course there's money. I would love for that relationship to be recalibrated, for them to both be partners coming to each other with proposals, making a plan, discussing with an advisor if that's what they choose, really approaching this as one of the core parts of their relationship going forward. Honestly, I loved speaking to them. It was a total pleasure. I can't wait to hear their follow-ups. Speaking of which, let's take a look at those now.

Hi, this is Meg checking in 3 days after our wonderful session with Ramit Sethi. My biggest surprise in the session was that we have enough money in savings to retire when we want to and to not worry about running out of money even if we live a long time. That's a super relieving thought to me. My biggest takeaway was Ramit Sethi's invitation for me to step into my wealth that I have with Joe, and I'm thinking of it like owning it. And my next step is to get conversant with all of our finances, all of our investments, and to understand them so I can be a competent co-manager of our finances with Joe. Thanks again for this great opportunity. I really enjoyed meeting the whole team.

Hi, Ramit Sethi and team. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us. It was a lot of fun and gave us a lot to think about. Um, my initial takeaways are that my thoughts don't always match my reality, and I need to figure out how to balance having my fears keep me sharp but have my decisions be governed by a strong plan that can balance safety and reality. Since my job is not my passion, it would be a shame to work much longer than necessary. I think we finally reached the point where we have more money than time. Um, so as for next steps, uh, first, Meg will retire next year when she turns 65. And as for me, rather than relying on vibes, I've set a retirement date of my 60th birthday, which is a little over 2 years from now. So knowing that there's a firm date in the future and that I could walk away from my job today if I really wanted to, um, it's very liberating and makes it easier to go to work for sure. I'm going to put together a map of what I need to do before I stop working to set us up for success and definitely seek professional input along the way. Uh, then we're gonna plan a massive vacation. Thanks for now.

It's been about 8 weeks since we saw Ramit Sethi. What really stuck out for me in our session was that I need to be an equal partner with Joe in managing our finances. And I have been listening to IWT coaching sessions and also been going back to Fundamentals and listening to very rudimentary finance, uh, classes so that I can really get a good basis for the work that we need to do together. Honestly, it's been pretty liberating to be able to understand what Joe's talking about when we are planning our finances and to have some agency in our financial future.

I have to give Meg props because last week, she explained what a Roth conversion was, which was very exciting in the evolution of our financial relationship. We had a very helpful session with John at Facet, who kind of built on the issues that we discussed on the podcast about the psychology of finance. And what was really helpful was a discussion of, for me, like, what would make me comfortable and how will I know what is enough? And, and that was— that gave me a lot to think about. We've also been working on our communication kind of preemptively before this enormous life change. We've gone back to couples counseling, which is hard in times but has also been a tremendous amount of fun. And we're really leaning into the idea that the biggest part of our rich life is having a rich relationship. And so we want to really go into this new chapter just with as many tools as we can.

Thanks again for everything. Thanks to the whole team.

I want to give a huge thank you to this episode's sponsor, Facet. If you are thinking about your own retirement, if you are getting closer to retirement, if you want specific scenarios on what your life might look like, or if you're dealing with a complex portfolio, go to facet.com/Ramit. What you saw today takes the guesswork out of these huge decisions. When can I retire? How much will I have? What does it all mean? As of the date of this recording, Facet is waiving their enrollment fee for new annual members. And for my audience, Facet is offering $300 into your brokerage account if you invest and maintain $5,000 within your first 90 days. Head to facet.com/Ramit to learn more about which membership option is best for you. Offer ends December 31st, 2026. I'm not a member of Facet, but I have an incentive to endorse them as I have an ongoing fee-based contract for cash compensation based on this endorsement. The Facet-developed scenarios are for education purposes only, are not advice, and do not guarantee a similar outcome. They are based on industry standard assumptions and inputs provided by Joe and Meg. As of the date of this recording, Joe and Meg are not members of Facet, nor were they compensated for their appearance. These opinions are my own and not a guarantee of a similar result. Facet is an SEC-registered investment advisor. If you want to know the exact month and year that you will have $100,000 in your investment portfolio, sign up for my new program, Road to $100K. I'll help you hit that number fast. Go to iwt.com/100k to sign up.