“I’m almost 40 and still living paycheck to paycheck”

I'm like almost 40 and I'm in this situation still. I'm going to tap my card and there's nothing there and it says insufficient funds.

I think because we've always been able to work, I've never worried about it.

My parents were always worried about money, like always worried about money. And then 10 years ago my dad died and my mom was left without even $1. That caused a lot of anxiety.

Romi, you've said you're carrying the full financial and emotional burden. Do you feel like you are in a true partnership?

No.

I'm upset. I'm upset hearing it spelled out to me, and I'm upset that my wife feels that way.

I think lately I've become a bit like almost like hopeless.

You don't know your own income. You fight about $5 expenses. And by the way, your investments are $45 off of $130,000 income. This is a major problem.

Listen to what this couple wrote in their application. We don't have much savings. And I often lie awake at night worrying. When I try to sit down with him, it often ends in an argument. My mom was a worrier and my dad an avoider. The day my dad passed away, suddenly my mom was left with $0. Today I'm speaking with Romi and Travis. They've been married for 6 and a half years. They live in South Africa. Romi carries the burden of planning and saving and worrying. Travis avoids responsibility, spends freely. They've repeated the exact same pattern that Romi grew up watching, and now she is desperate to break it. Let's take a look at their numbers. We're going to go through their conscious spending plan, or CSP, which you can download for free at iwt.com/csp. Their income is $130,560. Assets, $146,055. Investments are only $45. That's surprising. Debt is $148,617. Total net worth, $2,983. Fixed costs are very high at 76%. Savings are at 4%, and guilt-free spending is at 19%. For a couple in their late 30s with a 6-figure income. I'm confused by their low investments and their high fixed costs. I have a lot of questions, so let's get into it. If you are in a relationship where you or your partner make great money but still feel broke, or you argue about debt, you quietly avoid talking about it at all, or you feel like one person earns more but the other person has all the power, If you are any of those categories, I want to talk to you. I'm casting couples right now for a new season of this podcast, and we only do this a few times a year. We are filling up all of our spots this month, so apply at iwt.com/apply. Now, a podcast session is basically a 2 or 3-hour private coaching session with me. It's free, and it might help you finally get on the same page. If you've been wanting to get my advice on your situation, this is the last chance to talk to me in 2025. Apply now. At iwt.com/apply. If money is stopping you from moving to the next step in your relationship, then I want to see you at one of my events this September. I'll be talking with couples who have been married for 10 years. I'll be talking with couples who are on their second date, live on stage, totally unscripted and raw. I'll be in Atlanta September 14th and Los Angeles September 26th. Get more info and tickets by visiting iwt.com/events.

You talk about money?

Yeah, we talk about money.

Oh, what was that deep breath you just took?

Because it always ends in a fight, usually.

Is that right? Who brings it up?

Me.

And what time of the day or night do you typically bring it up?

So I must say I could do better on the situations where I choose to bring it up, but it's Sometimes in an anxious situation, I'll bring it up, or I won't say anything for a while. And then I'll be like really upset for like a few days. And as a person in general, I'm not that great with like boundaries or saying how I feel. So it's kind of like when it gets to that point, it's like really hard for me to do it. Like even this weekend, we had a few disagreements, I guess, because we're coming on the show and we'd be talking about it, about money.

Well, let's talk about those. What happened?

So we were talking about money and we'd had like a disagreement and I was saying to my husband, I feel really anxious because since my father passed away, we care for my mom financially. And like what we pay for her now is like the cheapest it's ever going to get. And we had a really good conversation about it. Then we got up to leave and then we walked past somebody who had some health challenges asking for money. So Travis gave him money. And then we went to pay for our car parking ticket that came to like $5. And then he gave the person like a $5 tip for no reason. And in that moment, it made me feel so upset because I felt like, have you not heard anything that I've said? Like, you don't have the kind of bank account to just be giving away money at the moment. You don't even have like $5 savings. So it kind of felt like everything I'd spent my energy talking about for an hour was almost pointless, and I felt really like deflated and unheard.

Okay. Thank you for sharing that. Travis, I'd love to hear your perspective.

I feel very overwhelmed and a bit like numb in a sense, because this has gone on for so long. She said some things this weekend as well that were like literally like a silver bullet to my heart. It was like so much that I'm behaving pretty weirdly the last 2 or 3 days, and I've researched what it is, and it's just numbness because I'm like coming to terms with like what I've done and what I've been putting her through. So I'm at a point now where I realize what she's going through and what I've been putting her through. I understand now that it wasn't about the money. It was the principle because she felt that she wasn't heard, not the fact that I'd given away $3.

Hmm.

You realize this now. How long have you two been married?

6 and a half years.

How long have you been talking about money?

Probably the beginning. Ramit Sethi's always been very key on the budget and everything, but I heard the words, but I wasn't listening.

Why?

Why was it? I don't have an answer for you. I don't have an— I don't know why.

Well, let's try. We're here. We might as well try to find out.

Thanks.

Why did you hear her talking about money since day one, but you didn't really listen or internalize it?

I think because we've always been able to work. Both Ramit and I are skilled. I'm a city and suburban arborist or tree surgeon, or like you guys call it lumberjacks out there. And Romy is a designer and a very good designer. I've never worried about it. So I always say that we're going to go fishing. I mean, we're always going to have our fishing rods and our boats to go and catch fish to eat, just to provide for ourselves. So I think maybe because like I feel that I can always make money until I can't move anymore, I'll just go out and I'll just catch it, man. It's fine. So I think that's possibly a problem that I have, that I've had.

Yeah.

So you haven't worried about money, so therefore you haven't really heard Romi's pleas or concerns. You use the fishing metaphor. We can always go fishing. We can always be self-sufficient if something really bad happens, and therefore it's kind of fine. Am I reading that correctly?

Yeah, I think that sounds right.

Okay, Romit Sethi, does that surprise you at all to hear?

No, because sometimes Trav's like, just sell a car, or I mean, what's the worst that can happen? We can end up under a bridge. I'm like, I've been in like really bad situations before. I don't want to relive it if I don't have to. Like, why does that have to be the plan?

Romi, you mentioned sometimes going to a store, tapping your card, and not knowing if there's enough money. When you hear that and when you think of that example, what does that bring up for you?

I just started sweating and I feel really anxious.

How many times do you think that you've done that?

More than 100.

Wow. So paint the picture for me. What's happening exactly?

Mostly I'm at a store and I've gone to buy us groceries for dinner and I get to the tilt point, and then I tap my card and it says insufficient funds. And most of the time I'm with Travis and then I'm like, oh, hey, there's like no money in the groceries account. He's like, oh, okay, don't worry. I'll put some money there. And there's like a queue of people behind me, like waiting to be next. And it caused me a lot of anxiety because it happened a lot when I was a child too, this exact same scenario. I'm like almost 40 and I'm in this situation still that I'm like going to tap my card. And when we both make enough money, there's nothing there. Causes me quite a lot of stress.

Travis, when you're right next to her checking out, what are you feeling at that moment?

Honestly, I'm not anxious at all, but I also know it's my bad planning.

Ramit Sethi, Travis said that he hasn't worried about money. Have you worried about money?

Yeah. I mean, when I was growing up, my dad was a factory worker and my mom was a teacher and we grew up in quite a wealthy suburb in Cape Town. So, The school I went to, everyone had quite a lot. So I was always conscious that we didn't have much. I mean, often there'd be like no lunch when I got home from school and my parents were always worried about money, like always worried about money. And then 10 years ago, my dad died and my mom was left without even $1. So that caused a lot of anxiety. Before we got married, as a single person, when I was working in London as a designer, I didn't worry because I had complete financial control. I had my Tax-Free Saver, I had my S&P 500 account, I had it all, you know. And then after my dad died, I had a few changes in life. I went to Mozambique and worked as a volunteer. So when we got married, it wasn't like I'm a worker with my bank accounts and I've got my things sorted and we kind of like meeting like that. It was more like Travis is working and I'm coming from like a volunteer background, not having much.

I see. Do you feel like you have control over your money now? No. No. Okay. And when I say your money, let's talk about, do you have control over your individual money? And do you have control over joint money?

No, I would say no, because we just spend whatever we earn. So say I do put aside some money and I say, okay, this month I'd like to buy myself some more makeup or something. If Travis wants to go out for dinner or wants to eat something specific, I'll just have to put whatever into the bank account so that we have money to pay for our groceries.

Have you ever said no?

No.

Tell me about that.

I haven't said no in a lot of areas. It's something I'm learning as a 38-year-old to be better at having some boundaries. I wouldn't say it's my forte, but but I'm trying to work on it.

Did your mom ever say no about money? Let's start with that.

She said no to me a lot about a lot of different things. Yeah.

How about to your dad? Did she say no about money?

No, I actually have the exact same financial situation that they had.

Is that right?

Yeah. My dad and Travis couldn't be like more personality-wise. And, um, I'm like a warrior, like my mom was, like always like, hey, can we have insurance? Can we have some savings?

So your mom was a worrier, you are a worrier, your dad was an avoider, and Travis is an avoider. When did you realize that there was this lineage?

Maybe page, what's it, 192 of your book? I don't know what page it is, but actually I was reading it laughing like, oh my goodness, this is the situation.

That's quite interesting. Married 7 years and right now realizing the similarities between how you grew up and the situation that you're in. So I can understand it's a little funny, like, how did I not realize that? Did you feel anything else as you read that?

I felt it funny, but I felt like a bit sad. Like, that's something I watched my whole life and I didn't enjoy watching it. It wasn't like a nice atmosphere to be in at home and now like, oh my goodness, I have this now. Yeah, was more a bit of shock in a way too.

Yeah.

Okay. Travis, do you feel that you contribute equally when it comes to money?

Like with numbers? Yes. But with like bank statements and talking to tax advisors and our accountants?

No. Okay. Romy, are you managing all of the financial logistics alone?

Yeah, and even when we talk with the accountant, actually, that's one thing I said no to this weekend. I emailed the accountant and said, if you have any questions about Travis's account, please email him.

Okay, how did that feel to say?

Felt good. I had, like, liberating.

Wow, okay, that's awesome. I love hearing that. Liberating, what a powerful word. We can be liberated from some of our older beliefs, Very, very perceptive, insightful. We're gonna, we're gonna keep that in the parking lot over here because I think we might come back to it.

Isn't it interesting how our upbringing shapes the way that we look at the world decades later? Romy watched her mom worry about money for her whole life. She watched her dad avoid money. You watch this happen for long enough, you start to believe this is how money works. This is one reason that so many women emulate their mom's behavior with money, and so many men emulate their dads. Romi said her mom didn't have a dollar to her name when her dad passed away. So it's no surprise that she worries about money. She literally lies awake at night catastrophizing, mulling over small purchases, and then turns out she married an avoider, repeating the exact same cycle as her parents. Now, I will say the good news is that we can change a dynamic. I wanna say it again because it's so important for you to know. If you are in a dynamic that is not serving you, you can change it, especially here and now that we recognize some of the dynamic that's going on. If you are in a dynamic that's not working for you anymore, if you wanna change it, I wrote about money dynamics in my new book, Money for Couples. You can download the first chapter for free at iwt.com/mfcpreview. We'll get into their conscious spending plan right after this. I remember when I made my first sale online, it was for a $4.95 ebook, and I felt like I cracked the code.

Like, I was shocked.

I was pumped because if I could sell a $5 ebook, I could sell 10 of them or 100. But then after it started to keep selling, I started wondering, Uh-oh, do I need an LLC? What's this self-employment tax everyone keeps talking about? I didn't know. And like most people in the early days, I just ignored it. That's why I wish Doula had existed back then. Doula handles the back end of your business so you don't have to learn everything yourself. They'll form your LLC, manage your bookkeeping, handle your taxes and sales tax and reseller certificates. They'll do all of that. They'll even help you get a US bank account if you need one. And if you don't know what you need yet, they offer free consultations to walk you through the whole process.

Process.

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All opinions are my own and not a guarantee of similar outcome. Can we take a look at your numbers?

Sure.

Let's see. Romi, can you read the word in bold and the number in front of it? Full next to it for this entire box, please.

Okay. Assets: $146,055. Investments: $45. Savings: $5,500. Debt: $148,617. Total net worth: $2,983.

Okay, great. What do you think of those numbers?

I would definitely like to have an emergency fund, especially the fact that we're both freelancers. And I would definitely like to have more investments.

Okay. Travis?

I'm not happy. I also want to have more of a savings account. And yeah, I also want to get out of debt. I'm tired of debt, man, hanging over my head.

Okay. Got it. Before we go on, your debt of $148,000, I noticed that $130,000 $130,000 is your home loan. And just so I understand, because your financial system is different than the one in the US, what is the interest rate on your loan?

10.5%.

All right. So $130,000 at 10%. What's the rest of the debt?

So I didn't file a tax return in between 2016 and 2017. I left the UK. My visa came to an end in the UK. So I left, I think, in August. I never filed the tax return for that year. When I came back into Africa, I tried to make contact with HMRC, which is Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs. I like try to look for advice. I went through debt advisors. I almost went bankrupt just to try and like break down what's happening there. But I didn't forget about it. I was like, well, I'm trying my best and I can't get through with this, you know? And all this time went past. And then about like a year and a half ago, out of nowhere, the South African Revenue Service just cleaned out my whole business account, took all my money out of my business accounts. And they said they're doing a collection on behalf of HMRC. And it turns out they've been charging me penalties from 2017 up until now. And it's gained so much interest.

That's the remainder, roughly $18,000 of that past tax debt, debt, including penalties, etc.

Yeah.

Okay.

Which may be erased. We're in the process that it might all be dropped. All right.

Let's look at the income. Travis, can you tell me the combined gross monthly income, please.

Yeah, sure. It's $10,888. All right.

So that means that combined annually, the two of you make approximately $130,000.

Yeah.

Who knew that number?

I kind of knew, like, what my weekly is and her weekly. So I think this goes back to—

That's a no. And Romi's shaking her head no. So nobody knew how much they actually make per year. Fair enough. Thank you for continuing my statistics. 50% of the couples on this show do not know how much their annual income is.

So what do you think that suggests?

I'm not blaming you. I certainly don't mean for anyone to feel ignorant or stupid. That's never the intention. What do you think it implies that neither of you knew your annual income? Romy?

Um, that we don't really have like a grip on what's going on.

Yes. What else? Travis?

Almost shows a level of care. Like it's almost like we don't care.

Yes. And of the things you talk about when it comes to money, the things you worry about or disagree about, what do those things typically focus on? Like the $5 tip to the parking attendant, tiny, tiny amounts of money. Versus the big picture? Yeah, sorry, man, I get it. As you kind of reflect on the conversations you have about money, think about the differences in what you talk about versus what you don't talk about. What percentage of those things are about tiny, small items, minute, let's say under $100, under $200, versus retirement, asset allocation. What's the percentage difference, Romy? What do you think?

Yeah, like, I mean, 100% focused on smaller numbers that, yeah, it's not actually gonna make a big difference. Your latte, like you say, once a day in the grand scheme of things.

Not to dismiss those small things. The small things represent something bigger. I understand that. But also, You could spend the rest of your life agonizing over $3, $4, $5 expenses and actually get nowhere. Hmm. And so right here, just seeing that neither of you focus on your annual income, which actually tells you so much. Should a couple that makes $130,000 be able to give somebody a $5 donation or a $5 tip? Yes. Yes, they should technically, assuming that they know their key numbers and they have a plan. But if you don't, I can completely understand why you will really both argue in the weeds. Okay.

Yeah.

So let's continue going forward. Your fixed costs are 76%. What do you think of that number?

That's high.

Yeah. Romi?

Very high.

You know, it's interesting looking at it. Your rent or mortgage is about 20% of your income, at least for the US. Doesn't seem that high. Your insurance, okay, it's a little high, but not crazy. You put your eating out in fixed costs. I wouldn't have done that, but that's okay. I don't mind it.

I wasn't sure where to put it. Sorry about that.

That's okay. I would probably put it under guilt-free spending, but okay. You know, it's not a big deal. Your groceries are $1,114 a month. That's, that's quite a bit. Is that typical for your area?

No, this is down to me because there hasn't been a budget. So we have a really luxurious store very close to where we live and it's, uh, high-end everything. Nice meat.

Nice.

So you can cut this by how much?

We've got a Costco budget, but we're shopping at Whole Foods. That's best.

Very good. Could you cut that down a lot if you wanted to?

Yeah, we could.

That's all I need to know. Your phone, whatever, and your subscriptions. Okay. There's a little bit of fat we can work with here.

Fine.

Let's continue moving to the rest of the CSP. Romi, what's that number next to investments?

So I basically just opened up a Tax-Free Saver linked to S&P 500, and that's all I've had to put in it so far.

1%.

Yes.

Uh-huh. And the rest of your investments? Okay. That's it. So You have, for the last month, you've put $45 in it, and that is the extent of your current investments. Okay. And finally, we have guilt-free spending at 19%. I'm not sure I believe that number. Do you believe that number?

No.

Okay. Okay, good. We're all on the same page. Okay. The number's definitely higher than that. Do we all agree on that?

Yes.

Yes. Okay. What are you spending for guilt-free spending? Just like on what things? Is it travel? I see some beauty products here. What are we talking about?

I think part of our guilt-free spending leaks over into our grocery spending because we just buy what we want. If I feel like steak tonight, I get steak tonight. If I feel like fish tomorrow, we get fish tomorrow.

Okay, so food is one. What else?

Eating out.

Eating out.

Eating out. Coffee. We drink a lot of coffee.

Okay. How much does a black coffee cost there?

About $3, $2.90, $3. Yeah.

Okay. And what about like a specialty drink, some type of latte? What does that cost?

Not much more. They try and pull you in by not charging you that much more for a luxury drink. Like maybe like 30 cents more or something.

Oh, all right. And how many coffees, uh, would you say on a given week you might be ordering?

We could easily go through, I'd say at least like between 5 and 10 coffees each a week. Okay. Going out together. Yeah.

Okay, fine. What else?

Just eating out.

Eating out. Travel?

No, we used to.

Okay.

But now there's no money.

When did you stop? Was it, uh, was it 2 weeks ago that you stopped traveling?

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. We actually, no, like we were naughty. We actually went to Seychelles at the end of 2023 and then we love it so much. We use our credit cards and when we went back to Seychelles in debt in 2024, June, July. So we've been doing so.

That's like 1 year ago. What are we talking about here? The way you talked about it.

We used to travel in 4000 BC.

We traveled, but we haven't traveled since then. It was one year ago.

It does feel like that. Well, we've, no, we've bought a flat since then and we've literally going to get another land. We in the process of busy buying as well. So we're like leveraging the debt kind of, you know, because I think that Romy's so worried that I'm not saving. So she's like getting property. We're trying to get property because then at least we're going to put our money to something.

What the fuck is happening right now? We just went from talking about $3 coffees to leveraging debt to buy property when you have $45 invested. What is happening?

She's so worried about me not saving that she wants something to show for our savings.

Okay.

Can I understand a little bit about this land purchase that you referred to? So are you buying land to build property on?

Yes.

Okay. How much does it cost?

It's going to cost about 2.5 million Rand, which is about like, I think, 100 grand Um, $30,000 or something like that.

Okay. $130K.

$130K plus minus, but Cape Town's booming at the moment. So whatever happens, we'll be able to make at least another $130,000 on top if we sell it. Okay. Because there's this crazy property. Yeah.

Yeah.

And, um, you're taking out debt to buy the land, correct?

Yes. A mortgage, a house mortgage.

What's the interest rate on that? Same 10, 10.5%?

I think so. Yeah.

How did you come to the decision to do this? Who decided?

I think both of us. We are living in a flat now where we're renting, and we're not happy. There's no sunshine. So we're like trying to figure out like how we're gonna get sunshine. Um, we own a flat in the same block here, just above here, and Romy's done a good job of Airbnb-ing it. It actually paid our whole bond. We haven't put one payment into our mortgage since, right?

Hold on, hold on, hold on. Romy, you own an Airbnb?

We own a flat together.

That Oh, the two of you own a flat together, which you use, you rent out on Airbnb. Does that make money?

Yeah, it pays the bond.

All of it's, it's, um, what do you call it? Cash flow positive?

Yeah, it's cash flow positive.

Okay.

Is that reflected in the conscious spending plan?

I believe it is. If you, if you go back, let me put it back up on screen. So if you go back to where it says rent mortgage, that rent mortgage is for our Airbnb as well as the property we are renting. Okay.

And where does the income get reflected? Where's that?

So in my current monthly income, uh-huh, a percentage of that is Airbnb income.

Okay, great. Perfect. Well done. So are you the one making $6,780 or $4,100?

$4,100.

Okay. So a part of that includes the Airbnb income.

Yes.

Perfect.

This 8 $1,761 is not only for the place that you're currently sitting in right now, but it's also for the flat that is functioning as an Airbnb.

Yes.

Okay. How much is it throwing off in cash per month?

It's making about $1,800 a month.

Okay, great. Nicely done. That's cash flow positive. Let's go back to the land purchase. So you're taking a mortgage for roughly $130,000 to get this land and then you're going to build on top of it. How much will that cost to build?

So within the same quotes from the bank, they're giving us a building bond. So the whole thing is going to be about $130,000 from the land purchase to the build. It's going to be like a small tiny home situation.

Cool. And will you rent that out to people?

We're not sure yet. We first want to see how much time there is and we want to see what we can do with it, but we kind of feel because of what it is, it's almost like an opportunity, whatever happens. There's money to be made on it, or we could live there.

Okay. I do want to say $130,000 is a lot of money, you know, especially relative to the numbers that we are looking at here. I'm a little surprised that you don't know what you're going to do with the property, because if you're buying it as an investment, then, you know, of course you would want to have modeled out, hey, is this a good investment if we are paying $130,000 plus interest plus expenses, how much can we expect to make from it relative to just putting the money in an S&P 500?

Well, basically where we currently live, you can't find a freestanding house for under $222,000. So our view was that if we decide not to live in it, if we sell it once it's built, then I think we could make about $200,000 if we sell it and it's going to cost us about $130,000 to make it.

I wanna jump in here quickly because I'm starting to see a pattern with Romee and Travis.

Are you seeing it?

You can tell a lot about someone by how they answer simple questions. Some people give you a clean, confident answer. Others ramble for 3 minutes going on random digressions, and they leave you more confused than when you started, which is what Romee and Travis do. Chaotic answers, chaotic financial life. It's a big clue. I see the same thing when I'm interviewing people to work at my company. If they give long rambling answers, their work is likely disorganized. Ramblers for me are an instant no hire. Romi and Travis here overcomplicate everything. Their housing, their taxes, even tipping the valet. And I'm pointing this out because it's a major clue. This is sloppy thinking, and sloppy thinking hides behind complexity. When you have crisp, clear decisions, when you are decisive, you can answer questions in a single sentence. Let's practice it. See if you can do this. If I asked you, how much do you make?

Could you answer that?

If I asked you, where do you choose to spend your money? Could you answer that in one sentence? What's your philosophy on money? Can you answer those questions in one sentence? You should be able to. Let's take their land purchase, for example. They dropped a ton of money, but they can't say if it's an investment or a fun project. One minute they're talking about maybe selling it, the next they're upset about the lack of sunlight and they're turning this property into a freestanding tiny home just for them.

Even saying it is chaotic.

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Okay. All right, let's go back to your numbers. So your current fixed costs per month are $4,900. Just for easy math, let's call it $5,000. Your savings are $5,500. So you basically have 30 or 40 days worth of savings if something happened. How do you feel about that?

Yeah, I'm not happy about it. We've had some serious fights, my wife and I, and I've really understood now where I've like squeezed my wife emotionally. She's fatigued. It's everything. And it's all down to the fact that like I'm reckless with our money. I've known that I've got to sort it out. And I don't have the answer why I haven't sorted it out. I just kind of Same story, just go fishing and get in your boat, go fishing. It's going to be okay.

Okay. What do you do if you run out of savings?

We hustle. Basically, we sell stuff. We like on Facebook Market. Romy's got an eye for furniture, especially. She can see something that's really cheap and sell it for like 5 times the price.

It's quite striking that when I ask you, what would you do if you ran out of savings? Your answer is Romy would go on Facebook Marketplace. Oof.

Gotcha.

The question is to you, Travis. What would you do if you run out of savings, which you're about 35 days away from doing?

I'd go to work. I'd go cut some more trees.

Why don't you just do that right now?

I'm doing it now.

Oh, so you just do what you're doing?

Yeah, I'll go get more money. I'll go back to work.

Okay. Travis, did you grow up poor?

Both. Rich and poor.

Tell me.

Okay. So parents divorced at 5 and my mother remarried, I think at about 13. And my mom and my stepdad did pretty well. It was like the sort of before the dot-com boom. And like he was into IT with IBM and stuff. And my mom had a few companies. So they did really well. My dad was poor. My dad was in the Navy. Then he left the Navy. So my dad was always like a poor sort of peanut butter and white bread. Whereas my mom was kind of like think big. You know, you can do it. You can manifest, get whatever you need, like go for it. I went to quite a privileged high school. I could get whatever I wanted, but by the age of 16, 17, the cracks started to appear with my mom and my stepdad. They got divorced. And then my stepfather paid for my higher education of schooling and stuff. And my mother took that money from the house and basically spent it all. And then since I was about like 20, 21, my mother's always done badly financially. Wow.

That's quite a story with a lot of different forces pulling at you. What did your mom spend the money from the house on?

Anything you wanted, like literally, like, like whatever you want, man. Like we're going to go have a super expensive meal. We're going to go buy whatever skateboard I wanted, whatever BMX I wanted. Because I went to a very expensive school as well. It was like keeping up with the Johnsons, you know, like I went to a school where like some kids were arriving to school with a helicopter and then another father didn't like that. So then he would rent a bigger helicopter to fly his son onto the pitch. You know, it was like that sort of like, boom, I'm here. So it was difficult. I mean, the cracks started to appear because like, here I am at this prestigious high school. Everyone's got so much money and like my mom's money is running out. But when I say anything and everything, my mother always had a new car, whatever we wanted, man. And it was cash because she sold the house and she had cash. She had literally A million rand in like 2001 was a lot of money. Like by today's standard is probably like about almost $2 million, something like that. So she literally went for it and she just spent it all.

And her financial situation now?

Very bad. Very bad. Terrible. But thankfully she's about 2 years away from owning a property, small, modest property, but 2 years away, but she nearly lost it about 3 or 4 times in the 20 years.

What lessons do you take away as you look back at your childhood all the way to your teenage years with money?

I feel it's quite irresponsible the way that the money was spent when I was younger and there was no accountability for your actions. And I don't want to be the same. Like, I don't want to follow in the pathway of my mom and dad. I need to start to implement like systems like now. So that in 10 years' time, 20 years' time, I'm not in the same position.

Obviously there's reasons I think he has the certain views he has on money, you know, but we've never actually spoken about it. Like, hey, you know, why do you think you look at money like that? So hearing him talk about it was good to hear.

You mentioned to my producer, you said, I feel like I'm always carrying it alone. What did you mean by that?

I mean that I talk about it and it just like slides away and then gets me nowhere. Or I'm lying up at night, I'm so anxious, I'm worried about my mom. Like, we don't have savings, can we do something? And then he says, yes, okay, and then nothing ever changes. So I feel like I am carrying it alone because I am the one who's like worrying about it and like actively like seeing where I can change things.

Yes.

In those types of conversations that you have with Travis, can you zoom up for just a second, almost as if you're floating and looking at the two of you talking? Imagine that that is a game, a game of chess or checkers. What is your position? In other words, what is your role in conversations like that? How would you describe it?

Maybe like a nagging.

Okay, nagging.

What else?

Sometimes I'm even like begging, like, hey, please, please, like, I can't do this anymore. Like, I'm like exhausted, please.

You know, like, can you finish the sentence?

Please what?

Please, can you work with me? And can we make some changes? Please, can we plan something? Okay, please, can we think of the future? If Travis dies tomorrow, like, I gotta take care of my mom, I gotta pay this, like, how am I gonna do it?

Got it. So, please get involved with me. Is that it?

Yes. Yes.

Okay. So you would describe your position or the dynamic as you begging, nagging. Is there anything else?

Yeah, I think lately I've become a bit like almost like hopeless. I've tried the money, like the wallet system. Okay, let's draw cash and let's only spend this for the week. You know, that doesn't work. I've tried the one account that doesn't work. So I've Almost like at this point for me, I'm like, I actually don't know what else to say or do or try. Like, I'm not sure.

Okay. Travis, I'd like to ask you to zoom up as well. Look at this dynamic happening in these types of conversations. What is your position? What role are you playing?

I'm playing, yeah, man, it's okay. I'll get it done.

Ah, and can you articulate that for me?

What is that role?

How would you describe that?

It'll be wake up tomorrow, have a coffee. I got to get to work, get my guys. Cool. We go to work. Then the day starts again. Then notifications go crazy. Then I get home late. I heard what you said last night, but she looks fine to me now, man. Let's just cook the food and eat the food and carry on with the rest of the evening. And then go to bed and then the same thing will happen. And then life starts again and then come home, same situation, tired, and then make something to eat and then don't put the plan together.

Okay, what is the role that you are playing when you say, hey, it's okay? What is your position? What is the role you're playing?

Like an unsupportive husband.

I think that's probably true, but in your head, you would never describe yourself as an unsupportive husband. When Romy is saying, like, can we please talk about this? Can we please make a plan? My mom, your mom. And you are saying, hey, it's going to be fine. Worst comes to worst, I'll go fishing. What role are you playing?

Is it an avoider? Is that what you're looking for?

I think you're trying to reassure her. It's going to be fine.

Okay. You're going to be fine.

It's going to be fine. Look, we've been in tough times before. It's going to be fine.

Yeah.

Reassuring her so that this conversation ends. Romy's nodding her head.

I'm not laughing at you. When I get nervous, I laugh. When I get nervous, I laugh. So this is what happens.

That's okay.

I don't mind that, but I don't care about that, actually. I'm focused right now on Romy. Romy?

Yes, that's exactly it. What can I say or do to get out of this conversation so we never have to talk about it again?

That's right. The idea of sometimes I, the reassurer, the avoider who uses a series of conscious and unconscious techniques to avoid money will say anything. Okay, I hear you, babe. Okay, I'm going to do better. Okay, I'll put $10 aside. Okay, okay, okay. How familiar is this to both of you?

Yeah, that's it.

Exactly. Not only is this part of the repertoire of an avoider, which I describe in the book, but we see this specialized dynamic, the reassure, or what I call the ignorant reassurer. It's almost always a man because men often see their job, their role in a heterosexual relationship, is to calm her down. Oh, she's spinning up. I need to calm it down because I'm the level-headed one. I don't want to get too emotional. So they'll say like, it's gonna be fine, don't worry. And if someone were talking to me like that, okay, I, I would actually feel more emotional. Like, no, you don't understand, it's actually not going to be okay.

So now we've established the boundaries.

The more she says, I'm worried, the more Travis goes, it's going to be fine. And then the more Romy goes, it's actually not going to be fine. So we have this dynamic. And let's add on one additional wrinkle: Travis is ignorant of the numbers, right? You don't know the number, so you are the ignorant reassurer. I don't use that phrase to be pejorative. It's not meant as an insult, simply to describe the dynamic or the game that is being played.

I would say that it's accurate and hearing it, I don't know why I feel some like onus to myself, like maybe I didn't ask the right way, or maybe I could have like tried something different to make him listen to me. But looking back over the years, like I have tried quite a few different ways It makes me feel— I guess it kind of makes me feel like heard talking about it now.

That's good. And Romi, I think you raise a great question. Maybe there were ways you could have talked about it differently. Honestly, I think there probably are. But my guess is even if you had talked to Travis in the perfect textbook way, it might still not have changed anything. Travis, What do you feel hearing this dynamic? And what do you think of it?

I'm upset. I'm upset hearing it spelled out to me. And I'm upset that my wife feels that way. And I've never called her a nagger. And I also agree with you. I feel that someone sounds like they're nagging because of something that's being done to them. So I've made her feel this way. So I'm a bit embarrassed if I'm honest. And even in the last few days, I've really feeling a bit numb because I think that the realization of what's been going on, but again, also positive because I want to change it, um, as well.

Yeah, I can hear that. The numb part is striking. I think sometimes if you realize the depths of what is actually going on here and there's no more hiding. Behind the layers of defense that we often put up. The depths can make it really scary because you realize, oh my God, this is not just a, uh, say something nice and everything changes tomorrow. It actually requires years and years of work. That's a scary moment, and one predictable reaction to that is numbness. So I hear you loud and clear, Travis. Have you always given money generously to other people?

Yeah, I have.

Yeah, I get a bit upset sometimes that it's like every time we go out, it seems like he thinks we have a lot more than we have. For example, there was a time like every time we saw my mom and sister, he would pay for everything. And I actually spoke to him about it. It's like, my sister works too. Like, she, she needs to pay if she's gonna come out with us. And then the last few times he did listen to me, let her pay, which made me feel like really good that he had listened to me. And, um, she did pay for her meal, and it was a nice moment where I felt heard.

That's cool. Especially promising is the fact that you talked about it and that there was change.

That's really good.

That's like a huge sign that there can be very positive changes here. Travis, I want you to understand this tendency of paying for other people. Whether it's people who are underprivileged, whether it's just people around you. What do you think is underneath that pattern? I believe that it's probably directly impacting part of what's happening here.

What's part of the problem? Why do I do it? Is that what you're asking?

Why do you do it?

You know, like, I just don't like seeing underprivileged people, especially.

How about your sister-in-law? She's not underprivileged.

No, she's not. But my wife, like, coming up now in the next few days, it's my wife's anniversary of her father's death. And like, with the father's death, like, shook the family so badly. So I feel I'm the only man in the family now. They've got nobody else. And I always feel like, if he was here, how would he want me to be, you know? And I feel like spoiling the old duck every now and then and buying her something, even if I can't afford it, I feel like with the mom, especially, like, how would I be if he was here? And that's why sometimes I pay for Ramit Sethi's dinner.

Yeah. Hold on. First of all, what's an old duck?

My mother-in-law.

My mother-in-law. Is this an insult? Is it? I need to know.

No, it's not.

Okay.

Not in South Africa. No, not in South Africa.

What in the hell is happening right now? I can't call anybody an old duck, but I do love these phrases I've never heard. So this idea, Travis, is quite interesting that you're the only man in the family, and can you just complete the sentence for me? A man, when it comes to money, his job is to be provider. Provider. Okay. We hear, so this is worldwide, everybody, everybody around the world.

For sure. Ah, yes. The old script, man as provider. Almost every single man I've ever talked to sees himself this way, but we also have other ones. Avoider, check. Ignorant, reassurer, check. One thing to note is that these terms are descriptive, not prescriptive. This is really important concept. These terms help us identify patterns, but they don't have to predict the future cuz you can change. The problem is a lot of people hear a label and they let it become a life sentence. They'll say, well, I'm just an avoider. I'm just a dreamer. I'm not good with money. And then that becomes the script that they use to justify their decisions. You know, I hear people describe themselves as introverts, as if that means they can't enjoy being around people. That's not even what the word introvert means. I want you to be very careful about labeling yourself because once you do, it is very likely that that label is gonna turn into your self-fulfilling prophecy. I made this mistake when I used to call myself skinny Indian guy. I shouldn't have even joked about it. Because it actually became something that I fulfilled for decades. Now I know I decide who I am, and so does anyone who truly wants to live a rich life. Listen now as I gently push him to align his behavior with his future vision.

But Travis, the thing is, right now you have about a month's worth of savings.

You're right.

Yeah. Sometimes the vision and the identity that we want to have is simply not reality with who we are today. And that doesn't mean it can't change, right? Somebody wants to have 15% body fat or they want to be extremely good at bowling. They might not be that today. They can be it tomorrow, but it requires dedicated long-term work plan, discipline, all of those things. Do you see the connection with your spending for other people and how it's not really working for your finances.

When you keep telling me like I've got 30 days left, like that's now starting to go in my mind. I've never thought about it like that. I've never thought I've got 30 days left.

Travis has lost everything that he's had once or twice, so he doesn't mind losing everything again. So for him, it doesn't matter if like tomorrow he's on the street because he'll just pick up the pieces and be fine. So that's one of the things that's classic with poor people.

They even say the exact phrase here. I've heard it many times on this podcast. I've been poor before. I can be poor again. Doesn't bother me. Well, that's one thing if that's just you and you're living on your own. But if you have a wife and you have an extended family, that's actually not okay anymore. And who's left to pick up the mess? Romi. I recently got a DM from a listener, Sarah, about this episode's sponsor, Element, a tasty electrolyte drink mix. Sarah said, I've been using it for 3 years.

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That's drinklmnt.com/ramit. Now, I'm not saying, Travis, that you're the only one responsible for your financial situation. There's two of you in this relationship. Romi, you have articulated you have an inability to say no. You have shared that you also participate in spending money on things like groceries and eating out. So I don't want to leave that aside. That's something worth talking about. But these are the root causes. And obviously you could trace back a lot of it to how you were raised and parents and schooling and all of those things. The fact is you can be a generous person but it might not be with money right now. Are there other ways to be generous, Travis?

Yeah, of course there are. Like loads, man. There's loads of ways to be generous. Um, I mean, you can wash— I can wash my mother-in-law's car. There's like— I mean, the list goes on, man. I can go fetch her groceries. But yeah, I can think of many.

Perfect, perfect. I love that adaptability. You can still fulfill the identity that you want to fulfill as generous, but it doesn't necessarily have to be with money because You don't have extra money. Simple as that. Okay. Romi, you opened a secret savings account in the UK. Yes. I learned that you told my producer. I'm very curious about it. Can you tell me why, first of all, you felt the need to have a secret account?

Well, basically because we don't have any savings. It made me feel anxious that we are both freelancers and if my contract ends or if Travis hurts himself or something happens, If I told him about it straight away, I'd ask to use some of the money from it or go on a holiday with it, something like that. I was concerned. And then I watched one of your episodes where you talked about how it's not the right reasoning to hide something like that from your partner. And then I told him about it.

Okay. How did that conversation go?

Yeah, she told me and I said, that's fine.

I love it. Okay. Is that savings account reflected in the conscious spending plan?

Because we used my savings as part of the deposit when we bought the Airbnb apartment last year.

Oh, you took the savings money and put it towards the Airbnb.

Mm-hmm.

I see. How much money was in that account?

I think about $4,000.

Okay. So you took the $4,000, you put it into the down payment. Okay. So how much do you have in your own personal savings now, Romit?

So I had about $3,000 and we've put it towards the down payment of this land that Travis told you about.

Help me understand it. You mentioned you started this secret account because you didn't have any savings and you were worried that, yes, Travis might like spend it on holiday. The money has now been put towards two different properties. Hmm. So like worst case, if you needed the money, how could you get it?

There's no way to get it. No.

So while I don't agree with having secret accounts, and I'm really glad you heard that prior podcast episode and shared it, I do think transparency is good. I'm all for each partner having their own individual account that only they have access to. It just can't be a secret. What I'm hearing, Romi, though, is that that money is not individual anymore. Anymore. It's been intermingled with the family finances and it's put on these different properties.

I guess it's probably not what you want to hear, but I felt that if we had a property and it had like an amount that has to come every month, it's almost like a way to make Travis save, you know, because I saw that with my parents renting a house for 25 years. The day my dad died, my mom had nothing. No savings, no place. She still has no place to live if we weren't helping her. So in a sense, maybe it's not the right reasoning, but the property almost feels like a bit of a security for me. Like, okay, at the end of the day, the bills are going to come and Travis will feel like he has to pay that, but he doesn't feel like he has to save or invest.

Forced savings is how people describe it. Yeah.

Honestly, this is why I love this podcast. When you just see numbers on a page, it's almost impossible to understand how someone made the choices they made. But once you hear their story and their history and their upbringing, suddenly things start to make more sense. Because people make very peculiar decisions when it comes to money, and those decisions almost always trace back to something much deeper, often something much more hidden. Romy kept a secret savings account, not to splurge, not for a vacation. She hid it from her husband because she didn't trust him financially. And then she used that same money, the secret account, as a down payment on their house. Now, this only makes sense when you realize what she was really trying to do. Force savings. Travis doesn't save, he doesn't invest, he avoids money entirely. So for Romy, buying a house wasn't just about ROI. In a way, it was damage control. She figured if I can't get him to engage, at least I know he'll make the mortgage payment.

Okay.

I gotta say, I appreciate the honesty. A lot of people actually do the exact same thing. They use real estate to force discipline for saving money. They know they won't consistently invest. They won't even set up an automatic transfer like in chapter 5 of I Will Teach You to Be Rich. I don't know why, but okay. So they tell themselves, at least I'll pay the mortgage. I've done things like this too. Weird, slightly irrational systems just to make sure that I follow through. For example, I'm the one who sends the agenda for my monthly money meetings with my wife Cassandra, and in the past I've had times where I skipped that meeting. I was not prepared for it. I didn't even follow through with it. So now I set multiple calendar reminders. It is literally the only thing in my entire calendar that I double up on. Why? Because I know myself, I don't wanna mess it up again, and I'm gonna find a way to guarantee that I send the agenda and I am there and prepared for our money meetings. So sometimes you do what it takes, even if it looks a little strange from the outside, in order to make your life work the way you want it to. Romy's choices weren't necessarily financially sound. My calendar choices are not the most productive. And yet, once you uncover the dynamics underneath, in her case, the mistrust, the avoidance, you can start to understand how she got here. Now listen as I show them a little bit of the nuances and flaws in this logic.

Well, let's find out. Travis, has Romi's hypothesis worked out?

Well, we are definitely putting money away. I mean, Airbnb's made all the money, but I think this month might be the first month we've got to put money in it, which we will have to do. So I guess we don't have a choice, you know, otherwise they'll take it away from us.

Hmm. Where's the money going to come from for the Airbnb?

We've got another sort of 2 weeks left. So from my work and Romy's work. So Romy gets paid end of the month and I do work daily. So I mean, even today we turned over about 200 or 250 left over and then The rest of this week will work.

Can I tell you, it all seems a little stressful.

Yeah.

Like, if you two were making $40,000 a year, okay, I could understand. We're here talking about, oh, where's the $200 coming from? Two of you make $130,000 a year, and it's like, your Airbnb is going to require some money put into it. Where's the money coming from? I got to work extra, and then there's this $200. This is very stressful and it actually is just another example of living week to week. You can't get ahead if you're playing down at this level. You know the game Whack-A-Mole? You know those things pop up and you hit 'em?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Little kids play it. That's like this financial whack-a-mole. Oh, we got this Airbnb expense. We gotta pay for mom's thing. Whack, whack. And you never actually build your finances. To something true, something systemic. Romy is nodding. I know you understand, Romy. Travis, what do you think about that?

Yeah, I agree. You know, it's nice to have a stranger like spell the words out. Um, because when I hear, when I hear what you say, I can't believe what I'm hearing.

Yeah. Yeah. The idea of, um, if things get really bad, we'll sell furniture.

It's terrible. Yeah. I mean, as you say, no, I know. And I agree. And we're both highly skilled. We both got a skill that's like in demand, you know, and that's also So I, to hear what you're saying, it shouldn't be this way.

I agree. You both have in-demand skills. I don't think you're managing your money in the way that a couple making $130,000 would.

Yeah, I agree.

Travis, when the government took money directly out of your account for the past due taxes, how did you feel?

I swear it felt like my heart had been like ripped out of my body and my stomach. And I think the main reason was I was so scared to tell Romy, you know, to tell her because I know what it's going to do to her. You know, like me straight away, I'm like trying to figure out how am I going to make this work? I've got wages to pay. But I remember driving up the hill, like on the way to where I was going, like, how am I going to tell my wife this? Like, without her having a heart attack.

Romy, how about you? What was the feeling when he told you about that?

I felt a bit disappointed because I had been asking him like, hey, please, can we do a bit more to follow up on this. So yeah, I felt quite disappointed, I'd say.

Travis, what's the plan to take care of the debt?

So we're speaking to HMRC now. We have like a lot of, um, a lot of interaction. We sent the return probably about 2 months ago, 3 months ago. Then they sent it back because they hadn't included a piece of paper that should have been signed. We have this all recorded. What's the emails?

Not what's the process, What's the plan?

So I'm waiting for this, the paperwork to come from the UK. I've got to then sign a piece of paper, then the return goes back. Once the return goes back, then we can negotiate if they can squash the penalties. We're going through lawyers. So off the cards, not that to go work there. That's kind of at the moment as far as we go. I mean, what about selling the property? Because it'll make about 500,000. Oh, hold up, babes. I'm just—

is it a thought?

Because there's about a 500,000 Rand, a 500,000 Rand surplus already. We had it evaluated. So we bought it for 2.350 and it's now valued at 2.8. So I thought about selling a property to then squash debt and then kind of not, I wouldn't say start again, but it's almost like having a position to start where I'm not in minus money, minus money.

How come there's no discussion about eating out less?

Yeah, Ramit has. Ramit definitely. Yeah.

What about you, Travis?

No, I haven't. I just, yeah.

You know what I hear? I hear, first of all, there's some options.

Okay.

You got the process moving with the accountants. Okay, great. All of these are what I might describe as things that dreamers often describe, like salvation is one gig away. If this deal comes through and that deal, and if we can sell this thing and then that thing happens, and it's just these whack-a-moles, it's just these discrete things that heaven and earth have to perfectly align in order for it to work, and then we can pay it all off. But you'll notice, 'cause Travis, I do think you are a combination of an avoider and a dreamer. Dreamers, they never actually look at day-to-day spending and say, oh, we should probably cut our eating out by 40% to 50%. It's always out there on the horizon, like it's a dream rather than the reality of what we are currently spending. We should actually make systemic changes to it. Do you notice that, Travis?

I do now that you're saying it.

Okay. Okay. Romi, what do you think about that?

Yeah, I agree with what you're saying. And I kind of feel like as he said that, I'm like, hey, why do we have to sell the property? Like, why can't we just not eat the best fillet steak every night and not eat out all the time? Like, why do, you know, why does it have to be like, it just feels sometimes when I speak with her, so black and white, like all or nothing. Like it can't be like a consistent small thing that makes a big difference.

Yeah, this is, this is one of the root causes here. This idea that it's got to be all or nothing. The idea that, oh, like whatever we're dealing with on our day-to-day, that's actually not going to make a big difference because the debt is so big, the problems are so large, we actually need this massive thing. We need to move to a different country and start earning money there. We need to negotiate this massive thing. That's just one example of whack-a-mole. And you will go your entire life playing that game. Reality, building a rich life is found in what you do every single month. It's boring. It's consistent. We paused so that you could feed your dog, right? Yeah. How often you feed your dog?

Every day.

Why don't you just feed your dog once a year? Put it all in a big old pile. Say, good luck. Why don't you do that?

Yeah, I agree. I get it, man. I get it.

Ramit, I want to ask you, One word that we haven't talked about today is trust. Do you trust Travis as your partner?

In finances?

Yep. No. What would it take for you to trust him?

I think some kind of like reality check of like, this is actually where we at and like, this is what we are doing. I feel he should educate himself a bit more about finances and have a bit more knowledge about investing and saving and then almost like you always say, to have a system. Like, as soon as you get paid, you put 20% away. Things like that, I think, would help.

So you want him to get educated. Travis, what would that education look like for you? What would it take for you to get educated about money?

Yeah, I need to read. I start by reading your book. I start by reading your book.

Okay, that's one. Then what?

And then I need to address the eating out and also the daily going to buy whatever I want.

How?

I need to— well, as you said, like, we should talk about almost cutting it by like 40%. So not by just going, and we're not going to eat anymore, but maybe being more calculated in what I'm spending day to day. Like, set a challenge that I can maybe do half of what I've been spending, because that would still be doable. I always buy things that we don't need.

Okay. What do you think, Romit Sethi?

I kind of feel like, is it going to happen? Maybe that's negative, but that's how I feel at the moment because we talk about it and then nothing ever changes. And then I'm still that person like, hey, can we try to work on this? So I kind of feel like that in this moment.

I think one of the most painful things in a relationship is being put in the position of having to check up on your partner, having to, as you put it, nag your partner of having to essentially parent your partner. Hey, little boy, did you tie your shoelaces before you— it just invites a toxic dynamic into a relationship. And obviously there's a lot of love here. I would be willing to bet that that's not the case in other parts of your relationship aside from finances. The sort of status checking, you know, parent-child dynamic. I don't I think there are parts of your relationship that doesn't have that at all. Would that be fair to say? Yes.

Yes.

Okay, partners, um, you know, friends, intimate partners, all those things. But money is so foundational to relationships that when you start to adopt some of those dynamics, it becomes really hard for it not to seep into other parts. Why do I have to check up with my partner on did they pay this Bill, or did they do XYZ? And that's now making me question every part of the way that we interact. Okay, and I can see from Romi's nodding, that's exactly what's happening here. It happens in many relationships. Travis, I hope what you're hearing is the seriousness when we talk about things like trust. It's far beyond, you know, I need to finish a book. Yeah, you need to finish the book. You probably need to read 3 other books as well. But it's not even about books. But if you hear the words she's used, she's used words like begging. Sometimes I find myself begging. Helpless. She's used words like trust. Is it really going to change? Those are as serious as it gets in a relationship. Travis, are you hearing those from Romi?

Yeah, I am.

Okay, good. Let's talk about what the future looks like. You have mentioned some future goals, including the new house, traveling, making sure moms are taken care of. Now that we have talked together about where you are with your finances today, what would you say your key priorities are?

Our key priorities should be to have enough for more than 30 days.

How much?

A year's worth of savings for my wife and I, and then the money to be allocated into places where it's going to benefit us. I'm not looking to get like a rich lifestyle. It's more like a normal lifestyle that when Romi goes to the shops, she's not going to feel anxious about what's on the card because we've allocated money to go to the place where it wants it to go.

Is that it? Those two things?

I think for now, yeah, that's where I'm starting. Yeah.

Fine. I don't mind that. Romi, what are your priorities financially speaking?

Yeah, I would say emergency fund. And like, I'm happy to not eat out for a while. And I feel that we almost need to be quite aggressive with that. And I would like to have some boundaries if possible around our spending, like how much, and realistic ones too, how much we should spend on groceries. And if we do treat ourselves once a month to eating out, I think that would help. But I think the key thing is savings and doing it as soon as we get paid and not at the end of the month once we've used everything. I think that would the first key to helping me sleep better at night.

Okay. Let me read back what you both just told me.

Yes.

Your financial priorities should be, as you described it, building an emergency fund, allocating your money properly so that there is money in the accounts where needed. And doing it in a systematic fashion, meaning it's happening automatically. You have rules, you have guidelines, you have boundaries. How do those 3 priorities sound?

Great.

That sounds very good. Yeah.

Okay. Have you ever had that conversation with each other?

I've tried to.

I don't remember a conversation like this, but I don't think I was interested. I didn't mean not to be.

Right. That's an honest answer. So, Romi, you say you've tried. You, you try to talk about like, our finances are not in the place they need to be, right? And then Travis, your typical answer, I'm gonna guess, is like, I'll just work harder, it's gonna be fine, that type of thing. And then the conversation ends. Is that how it goes?

Yeah, that's how it goes.

Yeah.

Okay.

So this is good to see the patterns of what's been happening.

So really right now, Romi, you approach it in a very sort of beseeching, begging way.

Romi goes, no, no, no, no, no, please, it's serious. This is bad.

Travis with a larger wand. I'm using this metaphorically, Travis. I know you don't actually do this. It's fine. We'll be okay. Stop, stop worrying so much. Do you see the dynamic? It's like a knot. It's tighter the more you pull. What we have done so far today is we have established the severity of the situation. You don't know your own income. You fight about $5 expenses. You have about a month, 40 days worth of expenses if your income stopped, and you have heavy carrying costs. Not only do you have one other property, you have another property you're building.

And by the way, your investments are $45 off of $130,000 income.

This is a major problem. Okay, so once we've established the problem where both of you realize it, not just one, both, then we are now talking about what is the vision. Turns out your visions are remarkably similar. We need an emergency fund. We want to allocate our money in a meaningful way. And then we want to do it in a systematic fashion. Okay. Shall we take a look at the numbers and try to make some changes?

Yeah, please. Yes, please.

All right. I'm going to put it on screen. Tell me what change you would like to make. Go ahead, Travis.

Just trying to see from eating out. Let's like take it down to like $150 or half of that, like $175 to start out is Okay, so $175.

Yeah, Travis, take note of this number up here. So right now it's 76%. Yeah, we would ideally like to see that number below 60%. Let's take note, you dropped it from $350 to $175, your fixed cost dropped from 76% to 74%.

Okay, cool. And then the groceries there, let's start by taking like $400 off.

Tell me the number to type in.

So type in $714.

$200.

Okay. What's the number change to on your fixed costs?

67%.

Okay.

Well, this is cool because basically I've got a gym membership that I'm going to be canceling because it's an extravagant one. So let's take $70 away because I'm still going to go to this cheaper gym up the road. Please take $70 off the grand total, which they bring it down to $200.

Okay. You're at 66%.

Okay.

66%.

Maybe we've got to take more off eating out. Hey, maybe we can do it. I mean, even if we do a challenge, what do you think?

Yeah.

Let's take another $75 off of that eating out budget.

We're within striking distance. This is quite good. I wanna give you a round of applause. That was really cool and very aggressive. Travis, I like seeing you.

You physically leaned forward.

That's awesome. You were like, okay, we can take this down. Oh, it's not enough. We can take it down even more.

That is pretty cool.

Romi's smiling over here saying like, wow, I acknowledge what Travis just did. Travis, do you see that level of involvement you're doing there? It's awesome.

Thanks.

It's really cool. So we're at 64%. I want to make sure I get Romy's input here. Romy, is there anything you would change on fixed costs beyond what Travis just did?

I'm not going to remove my gym membership because it's a gym and the office that I work from.

You mustn't. No.

So eating out, I guess we could not buy any clothing for the next 6 months while we—

No, that's too much, baby. I think more, I think more eating out. We can set a challenge. We're gonna still need clothes, baby. It's winter. It's going.

Hmm. Maybe you could change the eating out to $50 and we just have, I mean, in South Africa you can get a really nice meal for that. So we could go out once a month.

Just for now.

Twice a month.

Great.

$50.

You're down to 63%. I think we should declare victory on that part. So can we all give each other a round of applause? That was very well done. Nice job.

Oh my gosh.

Even the dog just jumped up cheering. That's crazy.

That dog knows the CSP better than half my readers.

I'm going to suggest to you by putting these numbers back up on screen that you can actually have incredibly meaningful time together, including the occasional spending on coffee or eating out, but you will become much more intentional about where the money goes. Shall we make it happen?

Yes.

Yeah.

All right, take a look. We want, as you both told me, that emergency fund to grow quickly. So let's just start by allocating money there. How much would you like to put towards savings? As a hint, I usually suggest to people 5 to 10% of take-home pay. In your case, I would actually suggest a lot more because you're behind in your amount of savings to be accumulated.

So would you suggest something like $2,000?

Um, I will suggest starting with a percentage. So if most people are doing 10%, what number would you aim for?

20%?

Maybe 15%.

Okay, nice. So one says 15, one says 20. That's a great place to start. Let's try them both and see what happens. So let's see here. We're gonna talk about $640 will be 10%. That's obviously low. Let's go to $900. Oh, that's low. You can see I'm just kind of plugging it in here and seeing when the, the actual percentage hits the number. So at about $1,000, we're at 16%. Okay, cool. Let's do it again. Shall we go up to investments and put some money there?

Yeah. I feel like we could even take like 10% to put it into some sort of investment, like start, like a starting off. What do you think, baby?

Hmm. I definitely think we could, let's say $100 each, or you said percentage, right?

So yeah, again, like 10%, put it into some sort of, I reckon stock, say.

Okay, let's do it. Let's watch what happens. $640 makes it about 11% because you already have that. Let's make it, uh, $600. We're at 10% now. Okay, now we're starting to get a picture and now we can decide, is this right or wrong for you? So again, let's just take it from the top. Your fixed costs did not change, of course, at 66%. Your investments are at 10% or $645 a month. Your savings are $1,000 a month or 16%. And what you have left over for guilt-free spending is $515 a month or 8%. Now, just looking at the percentages, what do you think about these percentages?

I think they're much more like reasonable and the way that we should be heading if we want to make changes. Like we have an emergency fund. I'm happy to cut guilt-free spending.

When I see those numbers, I feel it's almost like a launchpad. I think as you start going, then you can adjust as you go. You know, the fact that we can make it fun, we can make this part of like a couple's thing, like struggling to not spend money. But doing it because we said we are gonna do it.

That's a very good insight, which is approaching this as we are doing this because we have a powerful vision of the kind of life we wanna lead. That is gonna put you on the road to success. Even if we are gonna spend less eating out or buy less salmon, we are doing it not purely out of restriction, but because we have a powerful vision of what we are building together.

And that gives you a really good chance of success.

Okay, I do want to add a couple of things now looking at these numbers. First off, my observation is these numbers are way better, way better. They are in line with what I would expect a typical couple— I would expect them to have their fixed cost, you know, around 60. Yours are a little bit higher, but we understand why. You're taking care of moms, and you have some Airbnb expenses that are kind of baked in there.

Okay, I don't love it.

I suspect that one of the solutions as well would be for your income to go up. When that happens, you will see that 66% drop. Okay, I don't know the economy exactly where you live, but for a lot of people in the US, if they made $130,000, their fixed cost would probably be in a similar place. Okay, because things are expensive, I get that your investments are now at 10%. That's a solid number.

I do want to add a couple of things on the negative side.

That's a little low for a couple starting out at your age. I would love to see it higher. However, you have an Airbnb and you have this other property, and so we should remember that investments don't only have to be in the stock market. There are many different types of investments, and yours is, hey, we have some properties. That's totally fine as long as you treat it as an investment. You're carefully tracking the numbers, the ROI, which I want to encourage you to do. Down to savings, you're at 16%. That's a lot. That's unusually high, especially for your income. But it is the appropriate thing to do because you need savings. You have too much risk right now. And I also think that your ability to be disciplined with savings needs work. Like, you put money into savings, but then you pull it out to spend on random stuff. That can never happen. Like, my savings is primarily one direction. It's going in. It is rarely coming out. And I really want you to think about that. Your savings account is not like a checking account. Oh, let's just pull it out because we want to get some food. No. It's there, it's in a separate account. It has a name, emergency fund until, you know, $40,000. That's what you call it. And it does not come out except in case of emergency. Finally, you're guilt-free spending at 8%. That's a little low, but truthfully, I think the two of you can do it. And I think because you both recognize, hey, we have not been saving and investing effectively. Therefore, we are willing to intentionally sacrifice. You still have the once a month eating out, the once coffee thing, and some extra money to spend on something nice that you like. I would encourage you to actually dream and talk about it and use the money meaningfully. Now when I'm looking at this, I go, wow, this is at least what I would call rationalized. The numbers start to make sense to me.

All right.

How are you both feeling about some of the changes we discussed? Travis first, then Romi.

Yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited because I feel it's also time to prove to my wife that I do love her. Because like 2 days ago, 3 days ago, I said I love her. And then she said, well, a person that loves somebody wouldn't treat the person. And then I said, oh, just please explain what you mean. And then she explained how she feels about my situation with her. And that was like hard to listen to. So I feel like now I have a platform to go off. I have agreed to counseling as well, which I've never done before. I've agreed to see a therapist. I've also agreed to see a therapist with her. So together as a married couple as well, which is different. So I'm very excited about this. I'm excited.

I love that. I love that. Romy, how about you?

Yeah, I feel excited. I feel like bedtime's going to be better because I can sleep. When I go to bed and not lie awake anxious and worrying. And I also take on board the few changes I need to make in the way that I address Travis. And, you know, like, I guess with his debt in the UK, I felt very like, well, he's not going to do it. So I'm going to do it because it actually affects both of us. But actually, no, you know what? That's not mine. You need to sort that out. So I think it's not just like money and putting savings away. It's actual like change in my view of things and maybe also learning that I'm also 50% of the relationship and I can say how I feel. And I think that'll take me some time too.

Beautiful. Both of you, very perceptive observations you have here. Travis, the idea that you're excited to embrace this new identity is really cool. Romi, I love hearing you acknowledge, hey, I've probably played a part in this too. I've probably been taking on some of the burden But I need to develop the skills with my therapist, with our therapist, and with a lot of practice to say, that's your responsibility. And as I write about in Money for Couples, that's going to be hard, especially because when you change a dynamic, it's really challenging. People make mistakes. Nobody effortlessly shifts into a new role, identity, or dynamic.

That's hard.

But both of you talking about it and saying, hey, here's where we want to go. We both understand it's not going to be easy. We're probably both going to make mistakes. Let's give each other some grace. And we have a powerful vision of where we want to go. That, trust me, that is so much more powerful and meaningful than being able to go and eat out at some fast food place 4 times a week. Trust me, when you truly build a rich life that is together, and you're aligned feels better than any amount of food or trip that you can take on a whim.

I would like to be the couple that does what you say and shows other couples you can do this, man. Like, if you apply somebody's advice who knows what he's talking about and you listen to what he says and you go the way he guides you, and then when you learn how to do it, you can do it yourself. And I would like to be that statistic.

Beautiful. Romi, how about you?

Yeah, I feel a sense of relief and I feel A sense of support now because it's not just a, like, conversation with Travis and I know it's never going to go anywhere. I feel that after this and hearing him say what he said, I feel that he is willing to make some changes and now he sees, like, how much it actually is impacting me and therefore us.

Beautiful. You are both right. You are both supported, not just by each other, but by us, by our team, and of course our entire audience. You know, our audience roots for you. They really do. They root for every couple that comes on here. And the thing that they hope to see is big changes. And I know that every couple I speak to, including you, has the possibility of making those big changes. So my hope for you is that you both make the changes.

You do that, I think you're gonna have a very rich I have updates from Romi and Travis, but first let me give you a little reflection of my conversation with them. I really enjoyed our conversation, and I genuinely believe that today's conversation was the first step towards lasting change because for the first time, Travis really understood the stakes of what we were talking about. At the beginning of our conversation, it was clear that neither of them had ever really operated with real numbers, not at a strategic level, not at a substantive level. They were stuck playing whack-a-mole with daily expenses, arguing about tips at the valet, but they were ignoring the bigger picture. Over the conversation, I think we discovered that the real issue was not just money. It was the culture that had been created. In business, there's a saying, culture eats strategy for breakfast. You can bring in a new strategy, even a new CEO, but if the culture is broken, Nothing is gonna change. And we see that in couples too. The culture in this relationship was she pleads, he brushes it off. She worries, he reassures. There was no shared ownership or partnership. And that's what I love doing in this podcast is surfacing not just the numbers, but the deeper culture, the deeper money psychology, the stuff that you think about when your partner is snoring next to you and you are lying awake thinking, I can't keep doing this. Why is this not working? This is not the life I imagined for myself today. For the first time, Travis heard that, and Romi found the space to finally say it. That is when things started to change. Once we named the patterns, the avoidance, the worrying, the secret saving, they started moving fast. They saw the trade-offs, they became decisive, and suddenly something that felt so tangled suddenly started to become clear. Can we cut the groceries to $300? No, that's not realistic. How about $500? Yeah, that works. That is what Romi and Travis did today. Romi and Travis submitted a ton of videos. Check out the highlights.

So we just finished with Ramit and the homework was to write down some keywords out of the conversation we had. And, um, yeah, it was to the point, quite direct, but that's what I needed. So one of the words he used to describe me was an ignorant reassurer. And now you write down some keywords out of the conversation we had. And, um, yeah, it was to the point, quite direct, but it's what I needed. So one of the words he used to describe me was an ignorant reassurer. And now when I hear those words, I wouldn't trust an ignorant reassurer. If I think of my profession, if someone tried to give me advice they know nothing about what's going on, and then they're reassuring me. So that, that's hit home hard.

I think my biggest surprise was I always wondered how Travis, like, never really cared about money, and it wasn't ever something that was on his mind. But then hearing him talk about his childhood and the way he grew up, I mean, those are things that I always knew, but hearing him say it and how it may have impacted his view of money was, yeah, that was quite a big surprise for for me.

The biggest surprise for me was it's more important to me to be known to be generous by others than my wife's feelings about money. My wife has been suffering, anxious, begging me, but my actions show by my spending that it's more important to me to be known as generous to others. That was a massive surprise.

My biggest takeaway, I would say, is the things that I want to work on myself. So Ramit Sethi, how I approach the conversations with money and the way that I start talking about it, I'm almost like less powerful. Cause I'm like, oh, hey, do you mind if we just, instead of being more assertive, like, no, I'm sorry, this is the boundary. This is your stuff. These are your bills. So the specific changes I decided to make and have made this week, and it was a little bit tough. There were a few times where. I saw an email come in about like accounts or finances and just leaving it thinking like, no, that's actually Travis's to handle. I don't need to handle that. That's gonna be something I need to learn how to step back and I don't have to be on top of everything and managing everything. He actually even had to remind me of something of mine today, which was quite a nice feeling. I must say I enjoyed that.

And now here are even more follow-ups from 3 weeks later.

Hey, just checking in. I guess the biggest surprise for me was finding out that a lot of the things I was worried about or concerned about are actual concerns. Sometimes when you're just alone with your thoughts, you could think like, maybe it's not such a big deal. And then just having Ramit Sethi to tell me like, hey, it actually is a big deal, like we should be working on this together, that really helped me. Thankfully, this week he's really been like on top of things and got so many things sorted that we've been talking about for months, even years.

I've wanted to be as aggressive as possible with this journey. I've opened up a business account to simplify my transactions. I phoned another bank to cancel accounts I'm not using. I have downgraded my premium gym membership to a normal membership. And yeah, that's where we're at at the moment.

Love being on the podcast. It's already helped us so much. And excited to implement more changes.

Honestly, the greatest feeling as a teacher is seeing somebody take my work and use it to improve their lives. I know that there are tons of people who read my book and blog and social media and show, and they make changes, but I can't hear from everybody. I mean, most people never contact me and tell me what happens, but when they do, it feels incredibly rewarding. To be able to speak to a couple like Romi and Travis for a long time and then to hear their follow-ups weeks later is honestly one of the highest compliments that I could get. And thank you, Romi and Travis, for setting a great example, being courageous enough to come on this show and showing all of us how when you really decide to make a change, you can make those changes bigger and faster than you ever thought possible. If you like this episode, I've got another one of my favorites you should check out right here.