“I’m going to die with student loans. What’s the point?”

On our episode today, meet Emmy and Antonio.

We keep getting into debt and getting out of debt and then getting back into debt.

I was in the dark. My head was in the sand. 100% overspending.

Antonio always managed the money.

I get anxious because I know what's coming next. Where this much more money in debt.

This month while Emmy buried her head in the sand.

I've never been involved in our finances. I got a free pass to walk away and not take responsibility.

Emme is a therapist, and she can't figure out her relationship with money.

It's anxiety inducing. It's overwhelming. I don't understand it.

They've been in a cycle of racking up debt and paying it off since they got married six years ago.

We both knew we were in a good amount of debt, but the amount was climbing.

How much did you raid from this emergency fund to pay off the credit card debt?

$77,000.

It's unrelenting.

There's nowhere else to go after this. We're selling our house and having to move in with one of our parents.

What were you feeling as you were asking these questions?

Like, the walls were closing in, like I was going underwater.

Getting can they break the cycle of debt? What's going on, Emmy?

I just need a second. I need a second.

Let's dive in with Emmy and Antonio.

There was one day we were leaving church, and there's, like, a fast food restaurant, like, down the road, like, on our way home. So we go, and he's like, oh, no, don't use that card. And I was like, why? And he said, because it's almost maxed out. And then I told him. I was like, that's never happened to us before. I, like, spiraled kind of after that for a while. To be honest, I don't remember any of the questions I asked. It was all. It's kind of a blur.

What were you feeling as you were asking these questions?

Like the walls were closing in, like I was going underwater.

Have you ever felt that before with money?

All the time. From forever.

So it's a familiar feeling.

Much worse. Yeah, it just got. It's like the feeling was always there, but the intensity got, like, 10 times worse in, like, a second.

Okay, Antonio, what do you remember about that conversation?

Almost shame. Up to that point, I. I was basically the main person in charge of finances. And, I mean, as you'll see, we never really figured out a way to make it work for both of us. I've come up with plans in the past, and we failed. And in that conversation, it was just like, here we go again. Before we were married, I always paid off my credit cards in full. And I made one decision that was the first time that I ever knew I wasn't going to be able to pay off my credit card in full. And that was when we got back from our honeymoon. Her ring that I got her was a cheaper ring because I got what I could afford. It actually tarnished in the ocean. And so when we got back, I was like, you know what, I got to get her a good ring. I got to. I got to make sure that she's taken care of. So we went to the store, we got her a good ring, one that I knew would last. And that was the first time I made a purchase that I knew I couldn't pay back that month.

How much was the ring?

That one was, I think, 3,000.

Okay, and how long did it take you to pay that specific charge off?

It snowballed. I couldn't even tell you.

Okay, after the seal broke, the next month. You charge more the next month. And it just never really got paid off for years and years?

Absolutely.

What do you make of that?

We felt bad. It never stopped. Basically, like the feeling of bad never stopped. We never, like, got past it. But there was. I don't think there has been been a day since then that we haven't talked about finances or stressed about finances or prayed or like, just like, it's been a snowball effect since, like, we never like moved on.

What do you talk about day to day? About finances?

Oh, my God, everything.

Yes. And the thing is that we use so many different cop outs and ones that you wouldn't like to hear. Sure, we'll go over it, but we've used a lot of comments.

Tell me right now, tell me, what do you say to yourself?

Really? I can only think of the most recent one. Most recent one being, being, hey, she's gonna have a full time job soon.

What's yours?

I physically could not get a job for a while because I was working. So I was like, I just kept my eyes on when I'm working. Can climb out.

Okay, what's next?

It wasn't even just like mental things that we told ourselves. Like other accounts that we had used that were saved for things in order to pay off our credit card debt.

Okay, so you raided another account to pay off debt. Okay, what was that account for?

I had a savings account coming into the marriage that helped us purchase our home and it was meant for like big purchases slash emergency fund. Like if Hits the fan like, this is the money that's there. Don't touch it. It was actually in the hands of a financial advisor. Yeah, I know. We'll get to that. Not anymore.

Which mid tier local financial advisor was it?

UBS knew it, but it's not my fault. It was, it was given. It was handed to me as like a, like a present.

All right, so how much did you raid from this emergency fund to pay off the credit card debt?

$77,000.

Whoa.

Yeah, I didn't know that until recently.

At what point did you go, isn't this like called emergency fund and we're paying off credit card debt? At what point did you say that, if ever?

Constantly. Constantly.

Okay, so you said it, but didn't change your behavior?

I guess. Yeah.

All right. What other.

It was almost 40k for student loan. For student loans. For like actual school. Then we put some of it toward the down payment of the house. Then some was for credit cards. There was maybe 10k of that was for credit cards.

Maybe the last one that I can remember was, was we opened a personal loan through Best Egg.

How much?

That was 30K. And that's the one that we had told ourselves when we hit the submit button on that one. Hey, this is it. Last chance. We get to fix our problems with money. There's no more options after this. And then we got ourselves in way more.

We'll be back after this short break. Now back to the show. Let's rewind back to the incident at the fast food place. So what came out of that conversation.

What clicked differently during that conversation was just the fact that the credit card was maxed out. And that was the first time that that happened.

That's it.

Basically. Yeah. We both knew we were in a good amount of debt, but the amount was climbing a lot every month. When I do the bills, I basically, I get super introverted, anxious because I know what's coming next and I know that, hey, I'm going to have to tell you that we're this much more money in debt this month.

It was genuinely like I was in the dark, my head was in the sand. Absolutely, truly 100% overspending.

You know, I'm always fascinated with the first time that something big happens with money. Like when he went into debt to buy her a ring. And when a couple realizes they are in serious financial trouble, like when they're at the fast food place, do you see how mundane these examples really are? A lot of us believe that there are these singular moments where the sky's Clear. The trumpets play. And everything changes in our finances. Guys. These are extremely rare when it comes to our money. The best predictor of our future behavior is our past behavior. And usually what I see is a series of mundane day to day decisions which people make because they're easy and they don't understand how to connect today's decision to tomorrow's consequence. Now, this is true for money, for food and relationships. And once you see the pattern, once you internalize that, what I do today has a profound effect on tomorrow. Sometimes if the stakes are high enough, you can start to make a change. Did you realize the severity of the situation when you were taking out a $30,000 personal loan to pay off credit card debt?

I feel like we realized the severity. I also feel like we still didn't have the appropriate tools.

We had no tools. But we're panicking every day. So the last coping. The last thing that we haven't talked about yet is that we've refinanced our home. And that was like the last thing.

Free money, right? It's all about equity.

We've learned. We've learned.

Who told you that? The agent who told you that?

Everyone. Actually, you know what? Now that you asked that question, everyone told us to do that.

Okay, hold on, hold on, hold on. Before, before we go on, tell me what you thought refinancing meant and what it would get you.

I had absolutely no idea. Like, no clue. Like, I literally had never. I didn't know what a for. I did not know anything.

I feel like I knew exactly what I was getting myself into. It just felt like the best option. And in a way, I still feel like it was because it led us, believe it or not, it led us to you. The broker that we used.

It was.

Very open, very honest. I told him everything. And I'm like, listen, man, this is. This is why we're doing this. We're doing it for debt. And I. I told him about our cycle too. I was very honest with him. And, and he was like, listen, man, we don't want to see you go into more debt. I hear you. Look this guy up and he talked about you.

Hold on. This is a mortgage broker?

Yes.

Yeah, he recommended me.

He did?

Yes.

The guy who says, I trust him as far as I can throw him. Wow. I don't even know what to say. This is insane. Anyway, thanks. I appreciate that from the mortgage broker.

And we continued to overspend and dug ourselves in a lot. And we've asked ourselves throughout the past couple months, what are the habits that we have that really get us there. And I think we have some answers, but.

All right, tell me.

We'll get to that in your time.

Let's. Let's talk about it. I love that you're introspective. Tell me what you discovered, what habits?

So I think the biggest one for me is just the fact that I'm overly generous when I don't have. I mean, I'm a recovering people pleaser, so there's that. But I like to make other people happy, and sometimes that's spending them and buying something. Buying them something that I know they like. Like, I have a list on my phone of things that I hear people say, I like this. And I will. I will write it down, and I will say, this person liked this. I will do everything in my power to make sure you get that thing.

Okay, so one is you're overly generous. Antonio, when was the last time you said no in your relationship?

We don't say no. Yeah, we don't say no. We. We've changed our wording. And I'm not going to go down that rabbit hole of recently. But no, no, that's not something that we have.

You don't say no because if you said no, that would make you. What?

Make me a bad guy? Because you're not getting what you want.

Right. So let me give whoever's around me what they want. I'll find a way. Right. I am a. I'm good at making.

People feel good, making people feel loved. It's my superpower. But I recognize that a lot of the time it's at my own expense.

What do you do for a living? You. In hospitality. What are you?

I'm a firefighter.

Firefighter. That's interesting. Why do you laugh at me?

He's a first responder. Like, he's like. He. Like the stories that he. He saves. Saves people. It's. Sorry, it's just the irony of what I do for a living and what he does for a living and this being a blind spot is just. I cannot see past that. It's just hilarious and crazy. Anyway, sorry, go ahead.

You think because he saves people's lives, it's ironic because what, he doesn't put.

This label on him, but other people do. Like, oh, like you're the hero. Like, you are someone that can do this. He'll never say that, and he doesn't put himself in that. But maybe, like that connected with the people, pleasing. Maybe had a little bit of connection.

Definitely a lot. That's a good insight. Antonio, a lot of times what we find. You called it the good guy. A lot of times folks will call it the hero. It makes them the hero. When they remembered something somebody said seven months ago and then give it to them for a holiday gift. It really is quite amazing.

What I'm getting from this is that it's something that I'm probably gonna have to be very intentional about. And the second I stop being intentional about it is where we end up in a lot of debt.

What else? What other habits are there?

It's gonna sound like a justification, but I don't think it is. I think it's context.

Throw it out.

We didn't know what fixed costs were, and so we had no idea that just our necessities was well over a hundred percent. So every month we were in the red and didn't know why, and then kept feeling like crap because we thought it was us. And then we look at each other, we're like, is it us? Like, I've never been involved in our finances. I've never talked to him about him. I've been very pan. Panicky, very nervous. Just never involved on purpose.

Why?

I would say a severe lack of knowledge, but that's on my part. I don't put that on him. I just had no idea. I put my head in the sand and I said, it's anxiety inducing. It's overwhelming. I don't understand it. It's not my thing.

Why?

I think it was just deflecting responsibility. It's all on you. I trust you. You got this. I support you. I'm gonna keep putting my head in the sand.

You know, Emmy was really descriptive on her pre screen call when she talked about her aversion to anything relating to finances.

And that's when I started watching Ramit's videos. But I watched.

She had to very aggressively convince me to watch. I refuse. I was like, I'm not watching anything financial. I refuse. I don't give a. I was like. I was like, I don't care what we're doing. I don't wanna watch anything. So finally I was like, okay. And like it was like a whole thing. And all day he's like, okay, we're going to watch it today. And I'm like, my deep breathing, I'm like, okay. And like, I get my notebook out. I'm like, okay, let's watch whatever. Like, I could not, would not want to do it fast enough.

Antonio, why did she deflect responsibility to you?

I mean, I don't know.

Did it cost her. Anything.

Yeah. Us ending up in debt again and again.

But that. It didn't. It didn't cost me anything.

How you mean?

I got to put the stress on you. I got to put the weight of the world on your shoulders. I'm so sorry. And say, you got this. You can do it. And I could walk away. What did I put on my shoulders in that? Nothing. It's like I. I got a free pass to walk away and not take responsibility. Like, that's completely unfair. And I see that. I. I see that, and I'm. I am sorry that it's taken this long to see that.

Yeah, I hear you. And, I mean, I. I forgive you. You're doing way better now, but thank you for. For acknowledging that.

Emmy, how you doing over there?

Sorry. I'm good. I'm just. I'm okay.

I love you.

Love you, too.

What's going on?

Emmy, I need a second.

Okay. We have all the time in the world. What's it making you feel as you come to this realization right now.

That I. I wish I figured that out sooner.

Let's take a second to talk about what is happening when people get emotional on this show. It happens all the time. Women cry. Men cry. Couples get mad at each other. They roll their eyes. They get sad, frustrated. They tell me it's hopeless. They also have breakthroughs. They smile. They laugh. They touch each other on the arm. I have these conversations so that I can help couples, which is why I make it really hard to get on the show. You have to fill out an application. You have to go through screening. We give you lots of off ramps before you ever speak to me. So the couples you see, the couples who come on the show really, really want to be here, and they are courageous. Can you imagine going on a show where you and your partner talk about every financial detail in your life, where you reveal it to literally millions of people? This is hard and is really uncomfortable, but every couple on this show does it because they want help and they want to do it together, which I think deserves a lot of respect. I've noticed that people cry the most at two topics. First, when we talk about the habits that they are teaching their children. And two, when they have a huge realization like Emmy just had. This is one of those rare moments in life where somebody looks back and sees everything through a whole different light. That's emotional. I don't know about you. I don't know how it shows up in your body, but for the handful of times it's happened to me, only A handful. I get a tingle that runs from my head all the way down my body. And I'm sharing this because you would never think that talking about money would make people cry. But if you've listened to this podcast, you know that money goes far beyond the numbers on a spreadsheet. And I think Emmy's realization is just a beautiful example of how money can affect your relationship in a very deep way. What was your interest rate before and after?

We had a beautiful interest rate before. 2.2.99.

Yeah.

Okay.

What? That was the before?

Yeah, yeah.

Now back to Emmy and Antonio. What? What's the after?

Oh, 5.5.99.

What the. Why'd you do that? Wait, now I understand why. This mortgage broker loves you. Why did you do that?

Well, okay, so we initially ended up buying our house during COVID So at the time, right before everything, decent interest rate, and then afterwards, the 5.99 was what we figured would help us, you know, get out of the 29% that we were paying in credit cards.

So you refinanced from 2.99% to like 5 point something percent.

Right. To pay off all of our debt.

You paid off all the debt. So now it's all rolled into five point something percent. How much were you paying off from the credit card debt?

The credit card debt alone ended up being 50. A little over 50k. Yeah, we paid off credit cards, we paid off our car. And so wiping everything clean and then being able to build our savings and all that just seemed like everything weighed out pretty well.

So you now have like a 29 year loan at roughly 5.3% at that point, once you sign the deal, your debt was all paid off. Blank slate. Not bad. Not bad.

There is an asterisk there.

Oh, okay, go ahead, tell me.

The student loans, those aren't paid off.

How much is that?

That's 60k.

It's kind of interesting, right? You took out that $30,000 personal loan, you said, this is our last chance, and then a short while later, you refinanced your house to pay it off. So what do you think about the fact that it wasn't really your last chance to pay it off? So what do you think about the fact that it wasn't really your last chance?