“Is it time for us to get divorced?”
Ramit Sethi coaches Kevin and Ebony, married 29 years, through a crisis over money and control. Ebony manages finances and fears homelessness in retirement; Kevin avoids the conversations entirely. They're drowning in debt, supporting extended family, and haven't addressed retirement, so they're asking if divorce is the answer.
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Point where if he doesn't care anymore, I don't care anymore. And I was just gonna throw my hands up, walk away, and either file bankruptcy or walk away and file divorce. I'm that like done. It was not this complicated two months ago. Ramit, what did we say in this conversation there?
We need more money. That was the conversation.
Well, what he just said. More money was not gonna solve the problem. I know he changed his direct deposit. I get paid once a month. So I was like paying all my stuff. It was already settled and then came started coming out of one.
Can't even hear me right now.
This is crazy.
Listen, if you guys want to fight, I'm not the place to do it.
It's the rationalization, rationalizing. I like being right.
Would you like to write yourself right into another 25 years of not connecting over money?
Nope.
No, no.
And again, I got to get off this crazy merry go round. If I start healing from this and he doesn't, it's not going to work.
I'd like you to meet Kevin and ebony. They're both 52 years old and they've been married for 29 years. I just loved talking to them because they have layers upon layers. Of things that are going on in this conversation. Now, in their relationship, she manages the money, and she admits that she loves control. He says that he's willing to help, but his attitude is that it's all going to work out, even while she is terrified. Now, as you listen to today's episode, you're going to be frustrated at times, I can guarantee that. But you're also going to experience breakthroughs as they experience it. So stick with it and be sure to stay tuned until the very end when they update us on what happened after our conversation. And if you're watching on YouTube, you'll actually be able to see their video updates. Now let's get to Kevin and Ebony. You've been married for 29 years.
Yes.
Congratulations.
Thank you.
What do you attribute being married for 29 years to? That's quite an accomplishment, actually.
Communication.
Oh, that's good. I like. I appreciate that.
Ironic, right?
Ironically, communication, she can be hyperbolic, but at the same time is the truth, you know?
Okay. Do you think that the two of you communicate well with each other?
Yes, we do.
Okay.
About everything except money.
Oh, okay.
We do not communicate well about money. He avoids, and I hyper focus.
Your husband hearing it. And when money comes up now, even the word money, if it comes up in your house, how do you think he reacts?
He shuts down. He detaches.
Show me physically, like, how would you describe it if you had to describe it? Like, would it be like, yeah, oh.
Yeah, it's a hot stove.
Like, it's too hot. I don't want to touch it. In fact, I'm going back to my part of the house.
I'm going to watch football. I am the one who tends to take the lead and take charge and start the conversation. But once I bring it up, we have no problem having a conversation. But I always have to initiate the conversation.
Okay. And in your mind, you don't want that?
No, I don't want that. That's where I'm kind of at. Like, I am too old to keep doing this, and I'm like, in my early 50s. And I just really am, like, I want someone who is mature enough to be. To be as engaged in the things that matter in our life. And for me, really, I think what's making me feel the sense of urgency right now is I feel like retirement is looming. I really was at the point where if he doesn't care anymore, I don't care anymore. And I was just going to throw my hands up and, like, walk away and either file bankruptcy or Walk away and file divorce. I. That, like, done. Our youngest, our son is about to go to college. And, yeah, I'm not where nearly where I want to be financially.
Kevin, do you agree that Ebony takes the lead in talking about all those topics?
Yes, she does. But at the same time, Ramit, Ebony is a talker. Ebony is one of those people who's a busybody. Ebony is really, really smart. I don't know. You have her profile, her bio. She's an attorney. She is, we like to joke, the smartest one in the room. So she has a lot of energy and her. Her mind is always going when it should be relaxing and laid back. She's always wanting to just. Sometimes you just have to let things go and she doesn't.
Okay, I think I understand. So let's talk about money. First of all, did the two of you talk about money?
Not really, but just a typical pay the bills. What do we need? Have a spreadsheet?
I have a spreadsheet and a budget.
Yes.
That I have created that I then.
Show him that we brief with each other once a month about. Oh, we don't do that. Okay.
Let'S take it one at a time. Kevin, you tell me, how do you talk about money and when do you talk about money?
When she's going to get paid. We'll talk about that also when I get paid to just make sure the money's dispersed properly or in the categories or when we have different things coming up. She said we have a son. He's a basketball player. He has campsite. Okay. Trainers, different things of that nature. Just. Just the typical household budget and the extra things. Like, he had camps, so we had to figure out the hotels, everything else so that. Those type of conversations. But just a basic money conversation. We don't have those.
Okay, Ebony, you want to add anything different to that?
Yeah, no, I think he summed it up. We really don't talk about money in terms of, like, investment and like, what's our retirement plan? And like, sometimes I'll say something to him that I think is, like, really obvious because I read a lot of books about money, like how much you need before you can retire and what you're going to live off of and to the point. And it's just like, basic stuff. And he's just like, has no interest in it, does not have any information about it unless I share it with him.
Why do you think he has no interest in it?
Because he does. What with his free time? He. Look, he will watch sports solida.
Well, you Told me what he does. My question is, why don't you think he has any interest in money?
Because when I bring it up, he avoids the conversation.
Why do you think that is?
Honestly, I think there's, like. I guess it's fear. Like, there's some kind of trauma there. I don't know. I. That's why I'm on this show, because I really want to know.
Wait a minute. Hold on, hold on, hold on. I. Okay. You've been married 29 years. You two clearly communicate with each other. You never got curious about. Why does your husband not want to talk about money?
Probably not until, like, the last three years or so.
You were just busy for the last 26 years. Just.
Yeah, no, because I really am.
Very.
I'll say, very controlling.
What?
Yes.
And I have done, like, I'll just. I'll just do it. Like, I don't have time to wait, and I. I don't know, like, what his deal is, so I just do it.
She said, you say it like I'm gonna reveal a secret. Okay, Gotcha. Kevin. Kevin. Are you surprised by that?
Oh, my goodness. That's news to me. Yeah.
Okay, let me. Let me make sure I have the dynamics right. Okay. I just want to make sure I understand. Correct me if I'm not accurate, because I want to make sure I do. I understand what's going on. Ebony, you're an attorney. You're in charge of the finances in the house. You have a spreadsheet. Maybe multiple spreadsheets. Is it multiple?
Probably.
So you managed the money, and it's actually worked in the sense that you had that role in the family for 26 years so far, is everything accurate?
Yes.
Yes.
Okay. Okay. Got it. And then in the last three or so years, as you've gotten closer to your 50s, your kids moving out, etcetera, you're reflecting, you're zooming back and saying, wait a second, I'm not where I thought I would be. And this situation we have, the way that we treat money in our family is not working for me anymore. Is that right?
Yes.
She matters to me. I really love her, and I'm willing to do anything to help our relationship. And truly, she has a point. It's one of those things when someone's right, you're kind of like, wow. And I may not be expressive or quite feel the way she feels, but I see the numbers and everything else.
What is the point that she has?
The point being? Well, we have a lot of debt. As far as I would say, on a scale of 100, we're probably 98 up that we're right. You know, where things are very tough month to month or as they say, if you had a true emergency or one of us, any emergency where we couldn't work anything, it would be definitely difficult.
Lot of early clues here. First off, the stakes are high. They brought up the word divorce in the first five minutes. And let's remember that they've been married for 29 years. In all that time, they haven't explored basic questions about how they both act around money. I personally love this because it gives me a lot of low hanging fruit to work with. Another clue, that their son is an athlete with expensive training and camps, etc. And finally, the last clue I notice is that Ebony proudly admits to wanting control in the relationship. And that relationship, by the way, has a lot of debt.
That's why we're here. Because before we were down to our last $25,000 and I said, you know what? We paid off all the credit cards. We paid off all the stuff. And I said, and then. So we agreed we would do a consolidation loan and pay off the rest so that we would just knock it out and no more credit cards. But you saw the statements. There's credit card. So now we basically doubled it. And I'm like, what the heck? How did this happen? So I feel like I've lied to myself. He's lied to me and I guess I've lied to him too. But there's been a lot of dishonesty and I don't know. I have been working on why this behavior continues to repeat, but I can't. Like, it's probably very multifaceted. I really like to be able to look in my bank account and see money in there. And in fact, sometimes when I should take money out of the savings because I've saved up, like this is for this expense. I don't want to, I want to put it on a credit card because I feel like if I deplete my savings, disaster is just around the corner. Like, I cannot be a 70 year old person in credit card debt. I cannot do that.
No, you can't. What would happen if you were 70 years old in credit card debt, don't own a home, what would you do?
Disaster is homelessness. And I just, it's, I just feel like it's right around the corner because, you know, there's just, it's, there's so much uncertainty. If I lose my job, we are going to be homeless. I would be eating cat food. And living on the street like I am, the. My worst nightmare is I'm going to be homeless. Like, that is just something I've.
From the whole. Let me. Let me guess. Let me paint the picture. Tell me if you've thought about this very picture. It's raining. There's a van you get out of. You're kicked out of the van, unceremoniously. You have, like, one bag and no food. You have cat food, if that. And you're left alone with only your bag of things. Does this sound familiar?
Yes, except I have a lot of bags.
Where does this homelessness fear come from?
I don't know. It is. It's. Yeah, it's bizarre.
You want to find out?
Do I want to find out?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, let's just find out right now. Who in your family got so close to being homeless that it was talked about a lot that people use them as a cautionary tale?
I've given away hundreds of thousands of dollars to his relatives to help them. We've helped almost every one of his siblings, and he has a lot of them.
Ramit, we grew up very really tough, and I have to. Where? I have a total of. Oh, gosh, I have. Anyway, our mom is.
Wait, are you trying to count how many siblings you have and you can't even count? What is it, like, 25? How many are we talking about?
It's not that bad. They're just a blended family. So there's like, he has five. There's five kids with mom and four kids with dad.
All right, fine.
Including him.
So what, they come to you for money?
No, no. They do.
They used to. Oh, my God. They don't come to us for money. They've lived with us.
Yeah, well, that doesn't. Okay, fine, but what's this hundreds of thousands of dollars you've given to them?
No. Over the time, one of my.
