“I've been homeless before… I'm terrified to spend money”

I have a scarcity mindset when it comes to money because I've lived in a car. I've had only $5 to my name. I know what it's like to couch surf. Six months after my dad passed away, they basically were just like, no wonder why your dad passed away because of how bad you guys are.

What the. They said this.

I'm careful.

I'm a doer. And it's hard when you're in a relationship when your partner is very different. We've never purchased anything more than $100 together.

You're basically playing a type of game. I want him to get involved. You already know he's not going to Eng the questions. So you're basically setting him up to fail, and you're setting yourself up to be resentful. All right, I'm looking at Jennifer and Steve's CSP. They are 37 and 41 years old. $346,000 of assets, $116,000 of investments, $193,000 in savings, and $319,000 of debt. Total net worth 335. Gross monthly income, $13,000. Fixed costs are only 43%. Investments are at 8%. Savings at 37%.

Wow.

Guilt free spending's at 11%. It says it's $1,187 a month. I suspect they just don't really know. Maybe they spend a little bit more. They easily could. So the thing that's interesting about this is Jennifer writes in her application, she's extremely frustrated because he, Steve, is stuck. He has all this money sitting in savings, and he won't do anything with it. I got to find out what's going on. This is why I love what I do. Because I could see the numbers here. I have some questions, but in order to figure out what's going on, I really need to get their actual story. Jennifer, on your application, you wrote, quote, he is afraid to make big life decisions and have his savings go down. We aren't engaged, even though we are happy and committed because of the mindset, he hasn't made any money moves and it will lead to a sad future for us. What do you mean by that?

I always tell him, you're gonna end up retiring and working at Publix if you don't make decisions now because it's already been a while.

What do you mean by that?

Not having a retirement, not making big moves in life for fear that the amount that he sees in the bank account will go down. Things that will actually better his life. And our life together and give us a future.

Whenever we talk about money, that scare kind of comes up where she'll say something like, you know, you gotta do this or that. And if not, then this is your future. Which would be the working at a grocery store at 80, 90 years old and not having retirement.

Yeah. Basically it symbolizes more than like the grocery store. Like you're not going to be able to retire, you're not going to be able to rest, enjoy more.

And how long have you been using this example?

Probably like a year.

Does it work?

No.

Oh. How come you keep using it then?

I think it just keeps popping up.

Steve, are you indecisive?

I'm careful sometimes to a fault. And I like to know all the details. And then once I know the details, I can make an informed decision. When it comes to finances, I like to understand how does this work. So that takes me longer to make those money decisions.

Okay, great. Is there something that has brought you here, Jennifer, to apply.

I saw your show and I saw how you were able to just help all these people take big steps, you know, and live life to the fullest together.

Big steps means what?

Like you're gonna laugh? What are they called? Like, storage bins? Storage bins. Ramit. Six months.

What happened with the storage bins?

So I said, babe, we still gotta get some storage bins. I got stuff in bags. I got stuff that the lid's broken. I can't even put them. It's a tiny little shed. I've been more than patient. And it's just always like, no, we don't need that. And I hear that all the time, no matter how small. And it's a recurring issue when you.

Hear the phrase we don't need that from Steve. What do you hear?

I hear, I just don't give a damn. Why am I going to spend money on this? Why do I care? And I'm thinking, this is our home. This is for our convenience. Things that just bring each other joy, who cares? They're freaking $10 bins. Why are we arguing over this?

Steve, can I check in with you? What happened with the bin conversation?

We were having a conversation about we need bins. What I has said to her was, there's nothing wrong with the bins. They're not like snapping in half. They're not like deteriorated and. And falling apart. I could do the bins now, but then tomorrow it's some the next thing, right? It's always the next thing that we need. I've been really hard, fast on the bins. It's just because I know that if I just pacify the situation. So, yeah, sure. Here you go. Yeah, sure. Yeah, sure. Yeah, sure. Then it'll be the next thing and be, oh, we need. We need this. You know, we need that.

What exactly would the next thing be?

It could be furniture. It could be a bread maker. Could be a variety of things that she just really like, oh, we. That'd be great. Let's have that.

And if that was the case, if you said, okay to the bins, 40 bucks or however much, and then the next thing she comes back with is, we need a new couch. Let's just assume that you said yes to all of those things. What would happen? What are the negative effects that you're protecting yourself and her from?

I like things to be like, hey, this year, let's get to this point, right? Like, if we need three, four things, let's put that in for this year and we can grab those three or four things. But if it's just like a running list that keeps going, then it was like, is this a need? Is this a want? It seems like it's a want. This isn't broken. So you start to analyze it a little bit more.

I'm a little surprised. I'm surprised because from reading your application, it seems like you only very recently got engaged with your personal finances. Is that accurate?

Mostly, yes. I've kept it very simple. Yeah.

And so I'm surprised because you're presenting this strong philosophy on money, but I'm wondering, how connected are you with your actual financial details?

I do know my numbers.

That's awesome. Are you afraid you're going to run out of money?

Oh, I'm always afraid I'm going to run out of money.

How can that be if you know your numbers?

Because I know at some point, even if I do say, yes, let's do this, there'll be a point where I go, oh, I can't do that anymore. I'm going to run out and I'm going to be broke.

Do you have a visual image of what broke means to you?

Yes. It's $5 to my name, sleeping in a car.

You've been there?

I've been there, yes.

Okay. Okay. Wow. The fact that you've been there means you have that image. And a lot of people I talk to who have been literally living in their car, when they are out of that situation, the first promise they make to themselves is, I'm never going back there. Did you do that?

I did that, Jennifer.

I'M struck by this conversation about storage bins. I love how specific it is, and I think it's probably a metaphor for other conversations in your relationship. So you've had this conversation multiple times. Here's my question for you, Jennifer. Why are you asking him if you should get new storage bins?

One, because certain things I need to know that he's going to be a team player for the things he finds boring. Because we're adults, there's going to be a lot of boring ish. We buy this is reality, and for him, this is very new. Two, because if we are going to be married, which is the goal, this is the boring ish that comes up all the time. And three, because I have a certain way of lifestyle. You know, I believe in comfort, having the things that you need. Also some wants, if you can afford it. I always tell him that you deserve good things. You don't have to, like, be in this famish mindset all the time. It's annoying. I don't even ask for a lot. Trust me, we do 50, 50 together as a couple. Very new for me. Very different as a Colombian American, let me tell you. And still we're gonna argue over these little money things. I just don't get it.

Okay, Jennifer, what if you simply did not have to ask Steve if you could get new bins?

I did that for years. I can afford all of this. If I want something, I would buy all the time. But after, like, three years of living together, I was like, I'm gonna stop. I said, why is he not being a part of these decisions? This is where we live. These are our homes. These should be our decisions. Even if it's a dollar sometimes I need to know that he has a say and that he's in this as a team.

Did it work?

No.

Okay.

It's a fight every time, right?

So you. You're asking him questions, hey, should we get this? I think we need that. And then his response typically is, what?

We don't need it. I don't got it.

Steve, you agree with that?

Without the I don't got it? Yeah. I would mostly lead with we don't.

Need it, we don't need it.

Lies.

What's the I don't got it? What is that? I don't have enough money.

Yeah, that's what she's indicating. What it comes down to is, is we don't need it. What we have is working.

Steve, can I ask you a question? What? If you just keep going on the way you've been Going on. Your place looks beautiful, right? From what I can see. Sure, you have a nice life. You could theoretically go on the way you go on. Maybe you get engaged, maybe not. Whatever. It's up to you. But what would happen if you just keep this up for the next 20 years?

Sadness. It'll just get tiring. You'll. You'll just feel exhausted over these same patterns.

Okay, Steve.

I would probably just get tired of hearing about it overall. And then I would say, all right, just do it. Both of us will put money to it, and then that's the end of that.

Okay. It's very interesting. I really like hearing your story, and I love these specific examples. It really helps me understand what's going on in the house. If you had to zoom out and you were to look at this conversation from above, what would you say is going on right now?

We come from two different mindsets as it pertains to money and how we view money.

I think what's going on is an issue with commitment. Like, we know we're each other's person. It's not like that. We're not, like, hanging on by a thread or anything. We're not that couple. But it's like one person has been married, has done it, doesn't have too much fear. Another person is fearful of all the big things. We're arguing over bins, and it's been five years. Like, imagine something serious, like a hospital bill. We need to be prepared. Like, time is running out. We need to just grow up. That's where I'm at.

Steve, do you agree with that?

To an extent, I do agree with that, but I don't think it's a commitment issue. I think it's a. Where we are in life right now. For example, if we were engaged, if we were married, this is all a very different thing. We'd be joining our accounts together. If she wants something, then, okay, there it is. We are not in that position right now. And so, that being said, it does take, like, hey, what do you think about the bins? What do you think about. I don't really find it to be that big of a deal. And that's kind of where we are. We're sort of separated still, but we are looking to merge lives.

It sounds like There's a catch 22 here. It sounds like, Steve, you're saying if we had joint finances, if we were engaged or married, we wouldn't be really talking about these bin questions because it would be our money. But, Jennifer, you're saying, well, in Order for us to get to our money, I need to know that we can have these conversations effectively now.

Yes.

For sure.

You both see that?

Yes.

Knowing that dynamic, it's kind of like you've both taken a piece of a rope and you've pulled it on each end and the knot is getting tighter. What's the solution here? It's probably not to keep pulling it.

For me, I would probably say that the solution is understanding each other and coming to some sort of concession on both sides.

I like that. Okay, and then, Jennifer, what do you think?

Little.

If each of you had a role in your relationship as it relates to money, what would the role be?

Planner, Risk management.

And what does that mean?

It means that you need to slow your roll. Let's take a look at where what we're doing here. Let's see what can go wrong and then try to mitigate accordingly to make sure that we're making the right move for our future.

I think that risk management is not really the role that you're playing. I think if I had to describe your roles, it might be dreamer and dream crusher. One person, they dream, hey, let's do this, let's do that, let's take this trip, let's buy these bins. And the other one goes, look at my body language. Do we really need that? I don't know about that. Why don't we wait and find out? Dream crusher, now there's a time and a place for saying slow down. Hold on. Like, can you show me how you're thinking about this? You want to buy a $50,000 car. Can you show me what's our conscious spending plan? How much is gas going to cost? Totally agree. We need to manage risk. There's something entirely different about basically reflexively saying no in so many words. Saying you don't need that is the same as saying no and not presenting an alternative. That's why you can't think of it, because I suspect you haven't actually ever presented an alternative.

Jennifer, you are so right.

Notice what's happening here. Jennifer has been trying to get Steve to change, but her strategy has been to argue over the bins, the couch, the tiny things. And Steve's strategy is to say no, to minimize, to protect. But neither of them has stopped and zoomed out to realize the real cost here is not the money. It's the emotional weight they've been carrying and the fact that they are not connecting. When a couple gets stuck in this pattern, one of the things that happens is they start to believe the only way to feel safe is by controlling the other person's behavior. It becomes a ritual. It becomes a habit. Soon it becomes the only way they know how to relate to money. Jennifer thinks if he would just say yes to the bins, this would all work out. I would feel seen. And Steve thinks if I can just slow her down, get this painful conversation away will be okay. But real safety doesn't really come from bins or budgets. It comes from trusting your partner, trust in each other. Trust that when you disagree, you can talk about it without the entire relationship feeling like it's on the line. This is the quiet cost of financial fear. It shows up in your house, in your tone, even in deciding what things are okay to talk about. Until one day you look around, you realize you've spent the last five years arguing about $10 bins instead of moving forward and building the life you actually want. And after the break, you're going to hear why. Underneath this argument, there's something much heavier keeping them stuck. There are a few things I refuse to do in my rich life bank with Wells Fargo or Bank of America? No thank you so much. Step foot in a Home Depot? No thanks. I don't want to smell that smell. I smelled it when I was seven years old. I'm good and spend hours on the phone trying to find an in network Dr. Only to be told that their next appointment is seven weeks from now. If you are like me and you want to avoid being on hold and actually get seen by a doctor this week, check out ZocDoc, the sponsor of this week's episode. ZocDoc is a floor free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. Book in network appointments with more than 100,000 doctors across every specialty from mental health to dental health, primary care to urgent care and more. Using the app you can filter for doctors who take your insurance. They're located nearby and they're highly rated by verified patients. And your appointments happen fast, typically within 24 hours to 72 hours of booking. They even have same day appointments in some cases. If I needed a doctor today, this is what I would use. So stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoc.com ramit to find and instantly book a top rated doctor today. That's Z O C-O C.com Ramit Zocdoc.com Ramit Every single day I get a question about what's the best bank account? What's the best credit card. And I have to tell you, my philosophy is to follow, find the best account and then stick with it. I really don't want to be changing stuff all the time just for the sake of changing it. And I found the same is true for my email software. Now, believe it or not, this email software I use is incredibly good and it actually keeps getting better. It's called Superhuman. They are the sponsors of this week's episode and I personally pay for this software. Let me tell you why. They just gave me access to a new feature. It's their AI feature right now. It can automatically detect if somebody's trying to pitch me. It can move those pitches into a separate folder. If it's a marketing email, it can automatically tell. It moves that into a separate folder. It can even tell when I write somebody saying, hey, let me know when that meeting is set up. If I don't hear back from them, it will automatically detect it. It will create a follow up message. Hey, just wanted to check on this. And it will pre write the message for me using my own voice. I look at my inbox every day. I have less than 30 or 40 messages. Everything else is automatically filtered and some of the messages are already pre written for me to look at. Edit and click send. This is incredible software. Imagine being able to buy back your time and to be able to become even more efficient with your email saves me at least 10 hours a week using Superhuman. Now I happily spend my own money because it has helped me buy back hours of my own time and my team and I actually love it right now. All money for couples listeners get a free month of Superhuman and you can get started@superhuman.com Ramit My suggestion, get it right now. Superhuman.com Ramit Try it for the next 48 hours. You're going to be blown away with the features that is superhuman.com ramit r a m I t obviously the two of you see money completely differently. I think that's pretty evident. Additionally, you have a structural divide. You're living together but not married and theoretically, Jennifer, you could just go and buy the bins. But what you're doing by asking these questions is you're trying to get him involved. Yes, you're basically playing a type of game which is I want him to get involved. My approach to this game is I'm going to ask him questions. But the thing is you already know he's not going to engage with the questions. So you're basically in a way setting him up to fail and you're Setting yourself up to be resentful, to live a rich life. We have to be honest with ourselves and honest with the people around us. And if something hasn't worked once, five times, 50 times, maybe my approach is bad and I should try to change my approach. Certainly today, I'll give you some different approaches. But also, maybe I'm just playing entirely the wrong game. Now, Steve, for your part, you also play the game. So your game is, oh, here she comes. She wants this thing. But if she wants this and she's going to want that, and if she wants that and the way you treat her is like she's a runaway train or something, you have to contain. Okay? Because if you don't contain her, if you don't bring her back down to earth, then what she going to do?

Going to run wild.

Yeah. Run wild. Now, has Jennifer ever given you any evidence of running wild, financially speaking?

No.

So it's quite interesting that you are looking three, four, five steps ahead to something that has never even happened. That's risk management, but it's actually become delusional. So the game that you're playing is you cross your arms and you go, nope, I'm here to crush dreams. And in fact, the funniest thing is that you've interpreted your dream crushing as a service. I'm preventing her from running wild.

That is true. But I do want to specify that we have had conversations in your perfect world. How would you like that to go?

Okay.

And I want chefs. I want a personal trainer. I want all of these things. And so it's like, oh, well, those are really nice. That'd be a beautiful thing. But that is not something that we have right now. It's something that we could strive to, and I would be totally okay with that. But right now, I never got the comfort, like, maybe just this is good enough, right? Like, maybe this is a really good place to be. I don't need a chandelier in every room, which she has had.

Okay.

I think this is a really important conversation. Thank you for bringing that up. I'd love if the two of you could actually talk about this right now.

So, Jen, I certainly understand and know where you previously came from and what you're used to in life. I am fearful that I will not be able to live up to that or am not currently living up to that because of our. Our financial situations, which are drastically different from your past and what we have today. I would like to have it to where that is understood and we can come together as a couple and Be able to strategize our future, that maybe one day we can get there. But I want to have comfort in knowing that where we are is okay.

Where we are is always okay. Because I'm with you. Yes, I had things in my past, but what I want is for us to have a great future, to have all the things we've wanted that we earn and deserve and not put a limit on it.

And that's kind of what makes me nervous in the relationship, is that there is no limit to it. And I think dreaming big is great, but I think that the feeling you possibly not being ever satisfied, where you continually want more and more to the degree in which I don't know if I would ever be able to keep up with it.

What you hear of wanting more and more is correct. But it's not in that way when I say I want more. It's. I think that we've made it, that we can have the next level, because we can. Why stay stuck?

Okay. Why Pause, pause, pause. I just heard two people explaining their position. You've had that conversation a thousand times. I didn't hear any validation. This is something I. I'm personally working on is validating my partner. So, for example, when Steve, you said, I'd like to feel comfort, Jennifer, I didn't hear you say, well, I want you to know that I love you and that we are good and that I hear your concerns about fear. Similarly, Steve, I didn't hear you saying, I want you to know that I hear you want more. And you see that we are in a privileged position and you don't want that to go to waste. You want to take advantage of. I didn't hear that. I just heard, let me explain my position. And then now it's time for you to go. I want to take that storage bin conversation, which I suspect always happens with Jennifer bringing it up. We're going to flip the dynamic and we're actually going to reverse roles. One is going to be the dreamer. The other is going to be the dream crusher or the driver and the passenger, which I think is a little bit more of a kind metaphor. The only catch is it has got to be something real that means something that Steve actually wants.

Okay, Jen, I want to modify my car. I want to make it go faster.

That sounds really cool, but we don't got it.

It would really make me feel happier in my everyday life, and I would really like to do that, Jen.

And you will. You sure will. But maybe we should wait till next year. We have all these taxes and bills to pay. We got a vet bill, we got your dental work. We really need to wait at least one or two years before we pay that off. Maybe then, you know, we'll see what life throws at us, and maybe. Maybe something else will come up.

I'm heartbroken.

First of all, Jen, you got really good at that answer in, like, 10 seconds. What just happened? You really took to that.

All I did was start putting myself in his shoes of what he might say.

You know, you both mentioned to me at the beginning of our call that you wanted to be aligned. In order to do that, you've actually got to be able to put yourself in the other person's shoes. Sometimes in an uncomfortably hard way. It's like, why does my partner think this way? Like, this is crazy. And yet I'm going to give it 15 minutes. I'm truly going to try to understand where they're coming from. I'm going to reserve judgment. I'm going to put it aside. I'm just going to try to live the way they live for 15 minutes. And I think that was really cool to watch the two of you flip perspectives. Now, can I ask a question? Steve, you were very excited. I actually could tell that car thing was pretty real, so good job. And do you remember Jennifer's reaction? What did she say?

We don't need it. There's all these other reasons why you shouldn't have it because of all these other reasons.

Right. And then what'd you feel hearing that weighed down?

I kind of understood it, but I could see why somebody would be like, well, dang, you know, like, I'm a little bit sad.

Yeah. It's interesting how you just depersonalized it, though. Like, I can tell you really do want to do something to your car. Is that accurate?

Yes.

Okay. So she said no. And then you were like, well, I can see how she's saying that. I can see how somebody might be deflated, but were you deflated hearing that?

No, because I. I know that I have other things that would take more precedent.

Like what?

Like student loans, getting out of debt, like modifying my car. A lovely thing. But there's other things that I would rather spend my money on. It's probably more important.

Do you think, in order to be good, you have to suffer? Everybody look at Jennifer's face right now.

You sound like him. Oh, my God.

I think that delayed gratification is a kind of pain for a greater, greater future.

You grew up religious?

Not super hardcore religious, but yes. My mother was a Catholic.

Okay.

Okay.

That's interesting. And Jennifer, do you believe in order to be good, you have to suffer?

No.

Okay. Have you all talked about this before? Seems like you have. What's the conversation?

Pretty much that he'll explain his view about, like, pain and sacrifice. And I'm like, you can just have fun, like, positive reinforcement.

I don't really understand it. There has to be some. Some sacrifice for something bigger later on, right?

Is it possible that both of you are right, that sacrifice is important and that you can sacrifice. It might be a little uncomfortable or even painful. It might feel good over time. Is it possible that all those things are true?

Yeah.

You guys ever play a sport, even, like, recreationally sucks when you start, Right. Your ankles hurt and you know you're not good, that's painful. However, over time, maybe feel a sense of accomplishment, Feel good. Any connection to money?

Yes, I would definitely say so.

Okay. Steve, have you ever felt good about money?

Yes. I hit a milestone goal of what I always wanted to at least have in the bank, and I hit that and I felt really good.

Oh, hey, what was the number?

A hundred thousand.

Oh, all right, hold on. Round of applause. Good job. When did you set that number? That's cool.

Probably once I really got into a really good career and I was like, what would that number look like for me?

Did you tell yourself what number will make me happy? And then the number was a hundred thousand.

Yes.

Okay. Love it. And you accomplished it. Well done. Are you happy with money?

No.

Oh, how. How can that be? Aren't we. Don't we all set goals and then suddenly we're supposed to feel better about money when we have more in the bank account? Isn't that how it works?

It's one milestone.

Oh, when do you get to feel good about money, Steve?

I don't think it's a number. It's when you look back and you say, I accomplished all of this. I'm content, and I'm not scared for the future anymore.

Feeling good is a lack of fear. Is that your take?

Yes.

Okay. Okay. What is feeling good about money for you, Jennifer?

Not having to worry. Being able to say, for example, I'm going to treat us to a dinner, doesn't cause any big issues.

I feel I understand both of you a little bit better with money, but I don't think I fully understand where your attitudes on money come from. Obviously, there's something deeper. I want to hear more about how you grew up.

When I was seven, my mother passed away, and so I was raised by a Single father. He did pass away when I was 14. And then from that point on, we didn't have a mother and father anymore, me and my sister. So at that time we were involved with a church. The pastor of that church was very involved in our life at the time and was kind of working through the details of my father passing and us not having any parents anymore. But there was a lady at that church who said, hey, I'll. We'll take guardianship over you and your sister until you become of age.

Tell them about the lady and the guy.

Yes. If there's more, I want to hear it. But I'm, I'm so sorry about your, your mom and your dad. And especially as a 14 year old, I, I can't even imagine. That's gotta have been so difficult.

The lady that I spoke about who was kind of taking care of us and took guardianship over my, my sister and I was living at the house. They were very religious. My sister found out. She was kind of going through some receipts. There was a big old bag of them, and she was kind of putting two and two together. And we confronted the lady like, what's up with all these receipts? We're spending it on this. And I'm like, how you, how is that even happening? Is like, well, through your parents. Death benefits.

And so they were taking the death benefit money and what were they doing with it?

They were spending it on their church.

What the.

So we of course, were not happy with that. We were already going through a lot. This is probably six months after my dad passed away. And they basically were just like, you know what? If you guys are going to be ungrateful, if you guys are going to be, you know, bad kids, we'll just give up our guardianship papers and we can. You guys could go off to the state and no wonder why your, your dad passed away because of how bad you guys are.

What the. They said this?

Yes.

Who? Like the lady?

Yes. They were both doing it.

Oh my God. Okay, then what did you do? How do you respond to that?

You're so young and all you want to do is just hang out with your friends and this is what's happening. Luckily, my sister was involved with a guy at the time. That guy's mother heard about what was happening and that the church people were going to revoke the, their guardianship papers. And she goes, I'm going to take guardianship over Steve and his sister. So she ended up doing that. And it was actually a funny story because once that happened, the church lady didn't know. Even the pastor didn't know that this was happening on the back. And they just thought they were going to revoke their guardianship and who knows what would happen to us? All of our assets and everything. My dad's stuff would be sold off. And she came home to my dad's house where we were growing up, and she was like, what'd you end up doing today? And I was like, oh, well, you know, I skated. I did this, did that. And I said, we got a new guardian, so we won't be needing you anymore.

Whoa.

Yeah.

That's like the ultimate mic drop I've ever heard in my life.

Ever. Yeah.

You're like, what, 15 years old at this time?

Yes.

Holy. Okay. What did she say?

She had her eyes wide open and she kind of did one of these and just walked out the door and that was the end of it.

You, Lady Agatha, whatever. Did I see her as an Agatha? Do you ever see her again?

No, I've never seen any of them ever again.

Oh, my God.

So moving forward after that, we had to sell the house and we moved in with the other lady. And once I got to about 18, the person who. Taking. Who took guardianship or wanted to move to Colorado, I was like, well, I'm going to stay here. And so I was, from that point on, surfing on couches, living in cars, that kind of thing. I had to deal with that for a good amount of time, maybe a year or two. Wow.

What. What a story. I've never heard a story like that. Yeah, I talk to a lot of people and I'm. I don't usually get speechless, but I can't imagine going through it as an adult now. And for you to have gone through it as a 14 and 15 year old, to have your only remaining living parent pass away, and then to have to move into a whole nother family with a sister. Yeah, like, there's so much. What do you. What do you take away from that?

It's hard to look back at it. I think now I'm a little bit older, I'm more comfortable with it. I was very angry at the time. I wouldn't wish it on anybody. It was extremely difficult. And I think in many ways I am the way I am today because of certain ways. I had to adopt because of the situations that I was put in. And I would say that I'm undoing some of those things because I no longer have to do those things anymore.

Steve, how do you think that your upbringing affects your views of Money today?

Well, I have a scarcity mindset when it comes to money because I've lived in a car. I've had only $5 to my name. I know what it's like to couch surf, and I don't ever want to go back to that feeling. It's vulnerable, and it made me very scared. It was most scared times of my life.

You lived in your car for. You said one to two years. By the way, I love how you're, like, so casual about it. Was it one year, two years? I don't know, some amount.

Like, if for me, if it was.

Two days or four days, I would tell you the number of minutes. So what happened after you were living in your car?

After I was living in my car, I did live with my sister and her husband for a short stint. I was also enrolled in college at the time, so I did that. I was able to get a job, and it was my first real job out of college. And at that point, I was no longer on couches. I got my first apartment by myself. So that was a really big, big thing for me. Well, nobody can kick me out. Nobody can say I can't be here. I remember thinking that when I. When I opened that door and I saw that blank space and, like, nobody's throwing me out of here, you know, that's amazing.

And you've had housing for the last 20 years since that job, right? Yes. Amazing, dude. It's funny. The conversation about the bins takes on a whole new light now that I know where you came from. So I appreciate that. Nobody can kick me out. That's powerful. Nobody can take this away from me. That means something to you in a way that it could never mean it to me. That's powerful. Hearing Steve's story, suddenly everything clicks. His fear around money didn't just appear out of nowhere. It was built brick by brick from a childhood where nothing really felt safe. Losing both parents, losing control over his home, even losing control over his own money. And this is why I always say you can find clues in people's background. Looking at the spreadsheet doesn't really tell you the real story. In fact, you can look at his savings account and say, wow, he's disciplined. But if you look closer, what seems to be discipline might be revealed as something much different. Maybe it's fear. Steve's history with how he was raised is affecting his relationship with money. It's affecting his personal relationship as well. Obviously, this conversation is not really about storage bins. What's happening here is that Those survival skills that he learned many years ago that he had to learn, they worked. They actually got him here. But now those very same survival skills are holding him back from moving to the next chapter of his life. This is one reason I always recommend therapy. Because you cannot spreadsheet your way out of a childhood history like he had. You have to get to the root. And it takes a lot of hard work. Work that needs a trained therapist. Work that cannot be done in one conversation. Otherwise, you're playing whack a mole with symptoms. And after the break, you're going to see how this dynamic plays out between them, how they both retreat to their corners, and what it would actually take to build the life that they say they want. Let's talk about the most common emotion on Mother's Day. Disappointment. And I'm talking about how disappointed your moms are in those gifts you've been getting them. Ooh, let me get her another petunia. No, let's not. If you're listening to this podcast, odds are you're actually making pretty good money. Half the CSPs I see are 52% fixed costs. So let me just say one thing. You'll have too much money to be buying your mom a $20 gift card to Starbucks. She carried you for nine months. She raised you. She's probably the first one who hearts every one of your IG posts. Why don't you give her something that makes her actually feel loved? If generosity is one of your money dials, this is the moment to prove it. One suggestion Aura Frames they are the perfect gift and they are sponsoring today's episode. Aura is a wifi connected digital picture frame that beautifully showcases your photos. You can add unlimited photos and videos straight from your smartphone using their Aura frame was named the best digital photo frame by Wirecutter and featured in 495 gift guides. And because they only take two minutes to set up, it's easy. You can even send her photos straight from your phone no matter where you are in the world. My coworker gave an Aura frame to her in laws and this is what she had to say. They absolutely love it. Now that they spend the winter in Florida, they don't get to see their grandkids as often. So we fill it with photos of the kids so they can see what they've been up to. As the year goes on, the photos look like framed photos. Highly recommended. Aura has a great deal for Mother's Day. For a limited time, listeners can save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off plus free shipping on their bestselling Carver matte frame. That's a U R A frames.com promo code RAMIT Support the show by mentioning promo code RAMIT at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. You ever notice those little clues that you're getting older? I read this article on millennials. I am a millennial. And they talked about the millennial pause, you know, where you wait a second before you start talking on your camera. I was like, I actually do that. And I didn't even realize that aged me. Or a lot of you wearing socks that are out of style. If you've acknowledged that you're getting older and that's okay, you're in a new chapter of life. You want to make sure your family's financial security is a top priority. And that means you have enough term life insurance in case something happens to you. This episode Sponsor Fabric by Gerber Life makes it simple to get the protection that's right for your family. Fabric by Gerber Life is term life insurance you can get done right from your couch, all online and on your schedule. You could be covered in under 10 minutes with no health exam required. Fabric has partnered with Gerber Life, trusted by millions of families like yours for over 50 years. It's made to be flexible. They've got high quality policies that fit your family and your budget and they'll offer plans at a million dollars in coverage for less than a dollar a day. With over 1800 five star reviews, they are rated as excellent on Trustpilot. Join the thousands of parents who trust fabric to help protect their family. Apply today in just minutes@meetfabric.com ramit that's meetfabric.com ramit.m E-E-T fabric.com ramit Policies issued by Western Southern Life Assurance Company not available in certain states. Prices subject to underwriting and health questions. Jennifer, do you remember the phrases that your family said about money as you were growing up?

Bueno, bonito y barrato.

What is that?

Good quality, nice looking, not too expensive, super Colombian. We grew up with everything we needed. Never had any for anything, right? Like anything, it was there. Now, they weren't rich by any means, but my mother could stretch a dollar. So a lot of times, like if we went shopping, we sometimes didn't have it right. But I wouldn't know that, but she would be like, okay, school shopping. We're gonna go to this area. Probably like the cheapest place in New York. But I don't Know, I'm a kid, and I could get, like, 10 shirts for the price of one there. And I thought I was the most luckiest girl in the world.

Would you say you were middle class? Lower middle class, poor?

I would say we're definitely lower class. Growing up as kids, never poor because we always had shoes, we always had clothes. There was a party. We always had a dress. That's very Colombian, too.

How about as you got older, say, 13 to 18? Anything happen in your family? With money?

They got more of it. They started to make it with real estate. So it started off with buying their first property. When we moved to Florida about 25 years ago, that property they sold and made a little bit, then the next one, and then that. We move probably every year and a half. So moving doesn't even bother me. It always means something better to me, in my mind, to move. Anytime we moved, it was always a better house. And I bring that into who I am today every time I move. I don't want to go backwards. Yeah, I'm doing better.

Yeah, I hear you on that. I feel that way about a lot of important things. If I'm at a certain level, if it's important to me, I don't want to go back down.

Exactly.

Jennifer, did you go to college?

Sure did.

Okay, cool. What'd you do after college?

During college, I started my own business. By the time I graduated from college, I had my business, and I was already in my chosen profession. And now I own and have my own company as well with my chosen profession.

Wow. Well done. That's a big accomplishment. How do you feel about that?

I freaking love it. I'm always like, how do I get to that? Next thing, you know, that next level, the next success. I tell Steve, I'm like, I'm a woman. That I don't go, oh, I need a man, or I can't live on my own. No, he dies tomorrow. That this house is mine. Everything's paid off. I am fine. Like, I'm good. I never have to depend on anyone, like, financially for anything I need. I choose to be with my partner because I love him. Not that I have to like in old days.

Is there an end goal? What's the vision for you?

For me, it's joy. I just like to feel like I'm taken care of, whether it's me or other people around me that love me, that I'm happy. I'm not in a box. I'm not in, like, pain.

Do you feel joy with money?

I do.

You do?

I Like money. I sure do.

I am surprised.

Really?

Yes. Because I hear from your stories. I hear accomplishment. I hear being very driven. And I get that.

Right.

That's how I was raised. Be driven, win. I get all that. I don't hear joy. The only time I heard it was just now when you said, I love money.

I love money.

What do you love about it?

Oh, that you can make it happen and could do the things you want to do. It just opens up opportunities.

Like what?

Like, for example, let's say I save enough for a thing. Now I can go on that trip and I have all these memories until I'm old.

I love that, too. Okay, so you. You're saying you love money, and I asked you why, and you said, you know these experiences that can create memories. I hear that loud and clear. Why else?

It's a form of freedom. It makes me feel good. It makes me feel like the potential is unlimited.

Yeah.

Okay.

That's really helpful for me to understand. I share a lot of the way that you grew up. I share a lot of the values I think you were taught. I think it must be difficult to love somebody who sees money so differently than you do.

Yes.

We have one person, Jennifer, who's like, I want more. I want more. I'm so happy when I move, because every time I do, it's better. And then I have Steve over here who goes, like, I don't ever want anyone to take it away from me. Would you both agree that the way you see money is very different?

For sure.

We know. Yeah.

I'm going to ask you a question that my wife and I were asked by a therapist when we were having a pretty difficult time talking about our prenup. She sat us down and asked us, how do you both see money? What's the word that comes to mind for you?

Security.

Okay, Jennifer.

Happy.

Happy. Okay. Quite different. So Jennifer's saying it's happiness. If I can paraphrase, it's possibility, it's freedom, it's travel. And Steve is saying it is security. Or to paraphrase it means that nobody is going to take it away from me. I don't have to go back to the situation that I was in as a kid. Totally different perspectives on money. Do you think there is a way to bring those two perspectives, happiness and security, together in a shared vision for your rich life?

Of course.

Yeah, absolutely.

Okay, let's skip the work and just get to the end. Let's say you all go through a series of conversations. You develop a healthier relationship with each other with money, what do you get?

We can meet our future needs and we don't have to worry about are we going to be able to eat tomorrow if we do this? Are we going to be on the street?

Steve, can I ask a tough question?

Sure.

Like I'm looking at your CSP right now. You all have a pretty good amount of money. You don't really ever have to worry about not eating again. Did you know that?

I didn't know that. No, I didn't know that.

I think that candidly your answer is almost the answer I might expect from 18 year old Steve. It's going to take a lot of work for you to get to Steve of today. Right now you're still giving me the answer I asked for. As 18 year old Steve who has a lot of things that happened to him not of his own fault, do me a favor, try to answer that question again. What would a healthy relationship with money look like for the two of you?