"Our business is thriving, our marriage is failing"

How come you trust me with all of the business money, but it doesn't seem like you feel the same way about our personal money?

I think with the business is there's protections in place. With personal money, there's not. That's probably what it comes down to, security or feeling secure about money.

It's like pulling teeth to get him to want to talk about this stuff as if I'm on my own.

But there still is a bit of me that has that fear. I still have this anxiety about it.

It did make me feel immediately distrusted. I hear panic. I hear a lot of fear.

My fear is driving my decision-making.

I had left my last marriage with absolutely nothing. I had no money, nowhere to live, no vehicle.

I get really, really uncomfortable with that.

Asking for help is not something I'm good at.

I don't want to wait till I'm 70 to figure this out.

I have to keep track of how much I owe him, and he doesn't keep track of it. Vanessa, he says, I don't know how much you owe me. Vanessa, I feel like I have to do all the work.

Does it work? I'm about to speak to Vanessa and George. Vanessa's 48, George is 59. They own 2 businesses together and they have been married for 5 years, but interestingly, they have not combined their personal finances. I'm looking at their conscious spending plan. You can also download your own template for free at iwt.com/csp. Looking at the numbers, they earn roughly $200,000 combined. Their assets are listed at $3.4 million. I'm curious to learn about that. What's interesting is that their investments here are just $157,000, which in their late 40s and 50s, I would expect that number to be much higher, especially given their income. And their debt is $478,000. Fixed costs are 46%, quite low. Investments 10%, savings 9%, guilt-free spending 35%. Honestly, I don't have a lot of comments on their spending right now, although I am a little bit puzzled by their net worth number. What caught my eye about this couple was Vanessa's application. First off, it's like 4 pages long, and I noticed that she goes off in a lot of tangents, but the words that she uses in her application are extremely emotionally charged. Listen as I read her some of the most vivid lines from her own application. Vanessa, on your application you wrote, George has emotional spiral attacks rooted in fear. I regularly have to talk him down off the edge. His white-knuckled death grip on money makes me feel super isolated and lonely. We co-own two businesses, but our differing views on money might drive us apart 'Which I do not want.' What do you hear as you hear me read back your own words to you?

I hear panic. I hear a lot of fear.

And George, had you seen this application before?

Yeah, but when it's read out by you, it has a different impact for sure.

What kind of impact?

Makes me realize that my behavior when it comes to money is something that I definitely want to work on. It's like, oh, I've got some room to improve there. I need to grow in that area because that's not a really comfortable place for my spouse and partner, my business partner and life partner.

Partner to be?

How can we grow? How can we build a rich life when there's that difference? I would hate to be her because if she's on pins and needles all the time, it's really hard to confide and grow in business and together.

Okay. That's, that's a pretty mature perspective on hearing those words. I appreciate that. Vanessa, you further wrote, due to cash flow issues in one of our companies, I wasn't taking a wage for about 8 months last year, but I was still paying 50% of our expenses. I racked up over $8,000 in credit card debt just to keep up. When I asked George to help pay it off, he asked if I'd be paying him back. When I said no, he was clearly not interested. What do you make of that, Vanessa?

I felt like the debt was incurred to maintain our life between the businesses and our living expenses, but that I was on my own to pay it back.

Okay, let me get a full understanding of the financial situation here. So I understand you both co-own two businesses. Is that correct? Yes.

We're a Canadian-owned C-Corp operating in Alaska and Skagway.

It is a design brand, and the one product line that we're best known for is our jewelry, which is made with wild fur that George traps on his trapline.

And George, are you a member of an indigenous— how do I say it correctly— tribe?

Yeah, I'm a member of TESLN Tlingit Council, which is a First Nations within the territory of the Yukon. My great-grandfather found his wealth trapping. He's handed that down to me, and it's a beautiful way of life being out on the land. And that's what's one of the foundations of the businesses is.

Okay, great. You two get along in business?

Yes.

Yeah. And can you just clarify for me, how are each of the businesses doing financially speaking?

So the Canadian business is not currently profitable. We've experienced a lot of dumb things with the local government that's had really negative impacts on the business's performance. It went from like The revenue dropped like 94% after the company, after the municipality did something stupid. So we've been trying to like claw our way back from that.

Not profitable. That's all I need to know.

The Alaska company's doing fantastic. The magic was when both Vanessa and I showed up in the store where we launched new product last year. So I feel really good about that store, but not willing to let the Whitehorse, the flagship store, go neither. So.

All right. Profitable business, unprofitable business.

And there's like 1,000 reasons, right? Like the Canadian company, we—

That's okay. That's okay. I don't need to know all the reasons. I just need to know the status. Okay. So you two are married. Yeah. You co-own two businesses together. Why do you keep your money separate?

I don't know, George. Why do we keep our money separate?

Well, recently we just opened some joint accounts. Not sure. Like to get to the root of that as well.

Wait, what? You don't— nobody knows? Oh, I know everybody's innocent in this room. What? Okay, hold on. Wait, did you say you know Vanessa?

Yeah, I've asked George for a long time.

If you know, then just out of curiosity, how come you kind of asked him in the way that you did? I kind of read it as passive-aggressive. I don't know, George, you tell us.

I think the reason that I had handed it back to him, the hot potato, was that I am very clear on why I want to combine finances. And this is a tired topic, and I wanted him to say the words because I don't feel like historically he'd really taken ownership for his fear-based relationship with the money situation in our marriage.

Okay, that I appreciate. You know what, if we're going to have a long conversation today Let's be direct with each other. How about that? All right. So George, would you be willing to pick up what Vanessa tossed out? She said you clearly have a reason why you have not combined finances. A minute ago you said, I don't know. Sounds like maybe you do know.

It's a tough one because there is really no good reason other than, you know, it's rooted in probably some insecurities around money. This is where that thinking part comes in. It's like, how do I attack that? And how do I think about that trust? Possibly.

Can we take it back? When was the first time that the two of you talked about potentially combining money?

I remember a conversation in the first year or two that we were dating. I was in the process of exiting my former marriage. That was a long and expensive and dramatic divorce. And so that George got to see how that was affecting me. And it led us to having a conversation around prenups. He brought it up. But at that time, I had left my last marriage with absolutely nothing. I had no money, nowhere to live, no vehicle, even my kids had stayed behind with my ex because I had to get out for safety reasons. And so George saw me with literally nothing. And so him asking me about the prenup, it made me feel a little uncomfortable because I wasn't familiar with kind of what that really entailed. But it did make me feel immediately distrusted.

Did you know that, George?

Yeah, I think I was aware of all of those different things that were going on, for sure.

So it sounds like the first time you talked about money early on, there were some legitimate reasons to talk about money pre-nups, you know, not having anything. I totally get that. I really respect that the two of you talked about it openly early on. Mm-hmm. That's awesome. What about once you got married, did you have conversations about combining finances?

We had several that really just made not a lot of progress. I would bring, not the, the conversation up, but the, the idea within whatever conversation was already happening, whether it was about, oh, send me the money for the, whatever repair or the renovation, I would see that as an opportunity to introduce this idea of like, well, this could be a lot simpler if we had just streamlined everything and we at least had a joint account just for running our life together. And that just would never ever get any progress.

What would you say, George, when she brought it up?

I felt like, oh, that's your idea. And so I really struggled with it going, that's your idea. This is what you want us to do as a couple. But then when we started reading your book and I started listening to some of your podcasts, it was like, oh, actually, I'm hearing it from another source. And that gave a neutral third party some direction for both of us to take. And I immediately started feeling better. Now, it hasn't been instantaneous. We're slowly— and we're still working. When did we set up our joint accounts? Like, 2 weeks ago? Like a week ago.

So you guys are like cleaning the house before the house cleaner comes. This happens all the time, by the way. This is classic. People come on this show with huge financial challenges. 10 out of 10. And then like magic, the week before we talk, they suddenly open up a joint account or they pay off their loans. They figure it all out. This is exactly like cleaning your house before the house cleaner arrives. It actually makes no sense. It's a way to often calm your own anxiety because you know that somebody is about to shine a light on how you've been living. It's also a sign of avoidance. My guests know that their finances are going to be talked about. So they're scrambling to tidy things up just enough to avoid the real conversation of how they got there in the first place. I'm curious, Vanessa mentions to you, hey, it would be easier if we had a joint account. And at the time she was your wife and your response was, that's not my idea. But then when you heard me, a random guy on the radio, say like, hey, combining accounts is good. Why'd you trust me more than your wife?

That's a really good question. I think there's a lot of fear-based thinking around money and security, and you hear all the stories, you know, losing everything kind of thing. And it doesn't matter if it's in a relationship or not. It's just that fear of losing everything and not being able to provide for yourself. And you watch other couples struggle with this and having to start over and being taken advantage of. And I think there's just a lot of fear around what could happen to you. I'm not in a position where I've got huge savings, but what I do have, I feel like that'll sustain me in my retirement. But now that I'm married, it's like, okay, let's take and build something else to sustain both of us. And I think it just took me a while to switch from that me mindset and my money to us and our money.

All right, I appreciate that. Vanessa, any reactions as you hear George describe the recent changes?

What's interesting is this. Scenario that I heard him mention as being the thing he's afraid of is what he was literally watching me come out of. My ex-husband was abusive and toxic and narcissistic, and he controlled the money and was a whole situation. And I left there with just my few possessions and he watched me get tricked out of all the money. And he was watching me experience this thing that he was afraid of.

What she went through, what was going through was horrible. And I'd never wanna go through that. I'd never wanna put her through it.

Okay, that's interesting. I'd never want to go through it. I'd never want to put her through it. And so your conclusion was, therefore, I'm going to just keep things the way they were when I was single, when I, George, was single. I'm not going to combine income. I'm just going to kind of freeze in time even though we're married. Is that an accurate representation of basically what you did with your money?

I think that is what I did with my money. Yes.

Vanessa, what is it like for you building a business with your husband? But not sharing your personal money?

It seems a bit silly. We have so much money invested of our own personal money into both of them, and he obviously trusts me in that context. I'm just not clear on what's taken so long for him to feel like he can sort of maybe trust me a little bit now to have these brand new joint accounts, like where the disparity comes from.

You ever ask him?

No.

Can we do it right now?

Yeah. Hey, George, how come you trust me with all of the business money, but it doesn't seem like you feel the same way about our personal money?

I think with the business is there's protections in place. With personal money, there's not. That's probably what it comes down to— security or feeling secure about money.

Did that answer your question, Vanessa?

No.

Okay. I assume that happens a lot, right?

Yes, it's a little bit tiring. This is usually the part where I go, okay, you're not ready to talk about it. I'll wait till another time.

What do you do when you ask a question and don't get a definitive answer? Do you double down? Do you yell? Do you leave? Do you change the subject?

Do you say, okay, I think I often will just give up and wait till another time.

Okay. How do you give up? What do you say?

I don't even say anything. I think I just let the conversation take a pause and then we just move on. Kind of like I never brought it up.

I usually exit and then she follows me.

You leave the room and then, Vanessa, you follow. And what do you like, watch TV or something?

Sometimes. He'll usually go into the basement to sit by the wood stove.

First of all, this sounds very Canadian, like the fact that I'm going to a wood stove. What do you do, Vanessa? Cuddle up and sort of pretend it didn't happen?

If his reaction has been that strong where he feels like he just is shutting down and needs to walk away, if I follow him, I will usually follow up with something that's like, that's gentle and to kind of soothe any of his feelings of distress so that it's not going to harm the relationship. Because I want to make sure that the conversations can happen in a safe way without it doing any damage to one another.

Understood. And can I just ask one final question? Do you ever bring it up and get a satisfactory answer?

Sometimes.

Okay, that's good.

But with bigger stuff that requires more commitment, like the setting up of the joint accounts, definitely is a, a harder ask.

What we just saw is one of the most common dynamics that I see in couples, the chaser avoider dynamic. Vanessa is obviously the chaser. She's desperate for some kind of participation in their finances so that she doesn't feel like she's doing this alone. And she tries everything. She brings it up nicely. She picks a different time of day. She even changes her tone, but none of it works. George, the avoider, shuts it down. He actually physically leaves the room, and that dynamic is painfully familiar. The more she chases, the more he avoids. What's happening here is not just miscommunication, it's a cycle, and it's been reinforced, concretized over the years. The important thing to understand is that this dynamic is co-created. Vanessa's not chasing because she wants to. She's chasing because she's embedded in this dynamic with George. Think about it. Chasing gives her a sense of control, of meaning, even if the chasing doesn't work. And George avoids, not just out of malice, he's doing what he's always done to manage discomfort. And guess what? She takes over, makes it all right. You can see this dynamic in play, but if he can begin to see the toll that this takes on her and on their relationship, that could be the first real step towards breaking this pattern. We're gonna get right into that after the break. One of my colleagues recently went keto to help lower his blood sugar, and if you've ever tried a pretty strict diet like that, you know that the hard part is not just willpower, it's planning every meal. Becomes a decision. Does this fit? What doesn't? What's gonna work? So to help make it easier, he started using Factor, and here's what he had to say about it. It was incredibly fast to prep my meals. They were all heat and eat type of meals, so it only took a couple of minutes. And the main benefit was I didn't have to think about trying to make my food fit my keto rules. I already knew these meals already did. I typically got seafood choices, and I was pleasantly surprised on how good they taste. Factor is a chef-crafted, dietitian-approved meal delivery service that helps you eat well without wasting time. Factor meals arrive fresh and ready to eat, perfect for when you're busy. You can choose from over 45 meals every week, from calorie-smart Protein Plus to keto, whatever fits your plan. And they have a lot of variety. Unlike me, I've learned that a lot of people aren't content to eat chicken and rice for 10 years in a row. I gotta tell you, one of the best things I have ever spent money on is making food easier. It means I don't have to think about it. It means I can stay on plan, and it means it can taste good. Again, not everybody's ready for a personal chef. If I needed quick, healthy heat-and-eat meals, Factor is what I would use. Go to factormeals.com/Ramit50off and use code Ramit50off to get 50% off plus free shipping on your first box. That's code Ramit50off at factor meals.com/ramit50off for 50% off plus free shipping. Factor meals.com/ramit50off. Do you talk about money with your partner? I have a way to make those conversations even easier. One of my coworkers just told me that Rocket Money, this episode sponsor, totally changed the way that she and her husband have monthly money meetings. She told me, he's been keeping this ugly spreadsheet for years that he downloads from our credit card statement every month. It's totally confusing. There are rows and colors. I never really understood where our money was going every month. So she pulled up Rocket Money. They were able to customize it to match the exact categories in their own conscious spending plan. And she said, now we can compare each month to our CSP and where we actually spend money. We know if we're on track. I love that I can train it to categorize our spending. For example, if there's a place I get my eyebrows done, That goes under personal care automatically. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps you lower your bills so you can grow your savings. Rocket Money also allows you to see all of your subscriptions in one place so you know exactly where your money's going. For any subscriptions you don't want anymore, Rocket Money can help you cancel them with no hassle. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions. Saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's premium features. So cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to rocketmoney.com/ramit today. That's rocketmoney.com/ramit. rocketmoney.com/ramit.

I think one thing that has shifted is Vanessa's able to show me graphs of where businesses are at, what they're doing. Able to show her personal life, where they're at, so I can see things. Whereas before it was like, I feel like we should do this. Whereas now, if she shows me something that's tangible, that makes more sense to me, which really helps with my trust issues around money.

I appreciate that. I do have to ask a question though, George. Do you think it gets tiring for her to have to jump through 50 different hoops to find a way to convince her husband to do something?

Yes, absolutely. It must be very frustrating.

Kind of feels to me like it— I would be going through my relationship just trying to get through the day. There's like a million things that have to happen in a relationship, and with everything I have to fight a battle, pushing up a stone up a hill instead of it being easy and just kind of blending, working beautifully with my partner. Do you see the difference? Do you have that in one part of your relationship where it's just easy, it's fluid?

Most of the rest of it. I mean, just the way that we work together in our business. Like, when we're out on the sales floor together, we can just like lob the conversations back and forth. I'll talk about a product, he'll talk about a product, and we know the pitch up, down, inside out. And it's just like cartwheels and high fives, and it is like a fine, well-oiled machine.

I like that. George, you agree with that?

Absolutely. We're dynamic.

That's beautiful. It's like you described a well-oiled machine. Sometimes I call it a ballet. It's just Everybody is doing their part and you know you have a teammate. You don't even have to look, you know they're right there doing exactly what you know they're doing. That's what we wanna do with money so that if there's a question about spending, you already know 98% of the time what they're gonna say or do. You've already set up a bunch of guidelines so that there's no question. And then once in a while you're not sure, you just talk, you, you check in and it feels good. That's where we're gonna get with money if everything goes well today. How's that sound? Mm-hmm.

Oh, that sounds awesome. I already feel less tired at the thought of that.

Okay. Yes. There is a light at the end of the tunnel and you know it because you already do it. You know, Vanessa and George clearly know how to communicate well in other areas of life, which is quite surprising given how they talk about money. George avoids, but we haven't yet gotten to the why, and I know there's something deeper going on here. Maybe it's out of fear, maybe it's ignorance. Maybe he avoids because he's embarrassed he doesn't understand money, but there's always a reason that people avoid money. Listen as I press him. Can you think of a time you were scared or nervous of money since you've been married to Vanessa?

Those come quite more frequently for me than her. Like the tariffs was a big scary thing to go through. Those types of things. Well, the White Horse Store, when it took a downturn a few years ago, That was scary because we're still growing the Alaska business. I'm still working half-time, so kind of counting on my half-year wage to fund those businesses to keep them going. So those are times where I feel like I wish I had more support systems in place to understand this better, because a lot of times I admit that sometimes it's just understanding because there's the fear-based thinking and then there's actually what's happening. So Vanessa said something to me recently that really helped calm me, and she talked about The money being like the tide. And she said, right now the tide's out and now it's starting to come back in. In the last few months, we've noticed the tide coming back in. So there is things that are changing and shifting. So it's helped me to grapple with the holy shit, the tide's out right now. We're all going to die. I have to go back to work full-time. I'm not going to be able to retire. I'm not going to have enough in retirement.

When was the last time you read a book on money?

Would have been yours last year.

You read my book last year? Hey, that's better than 95% of the people who come on this show. So already, you know, you're ahead of the game. Like, out of curiosity, you're, I believe, 59 years old, correct?

Yes.

And I'm assuming, correct me if I'm wrong, you've been worried about money for a long time. Would that be fair to say?

Yes.

Okay. So at 58 years old, you read my book and as you described it, you flipped around. Now, I don't mind. I'm not here to berate you for not reading every word of my book. That's not my purpose. But out of just out of genuine curiosity, you're anxious and worried about money all the time. It's, affected your relationship. Here you have a book, whether it's my book or somebody else's book, how come you didn't read the full thing?

I think for me, a lot of it is I trusted the wrong person with my money from a financial advisor who took a lot of that percentage of that growth, thinking that, oh, somebody else is looking after it, they're gonna do that job for me. And then just being busy in life and not making time for that. So I've learned actually a lot from just from conversations with Vanessa. And so she's done a lot of research and reading, and then we share that together as a couple. And that's That's where a lot of this knowledge and comfortability has come from.

I'm not buying it because you said Vanessa has helped a lot, but Vanessa has been trying to get you to open up a joint account for 5 years and it's taken like 4 years, 11 months to get it to happen. You know, so she may be comfortable with money, but that's her taking on all the load. If Vanessa wasn't around, what would you be doing with your money?

Probably the same thing, trusting somebody else that would look after me in retirement. I think I was at the point when I met Vanessa that I knew I needed to make changes with my money.

George, first of all, you mentioned a financial person, advisor type of person. What happened there?

I attended a seminar through work and started investing with an investment broker. So trusted that everything would be fine for my retirement, kept working away at it and went, oh, he's got my back. This is what's going to happen. But then for some reason, just didn't take that upon myself, didn't worry too much.

The first time I met this guy, I said he's greasy and I don't like him.

Greasy. That's a great insult, by the way. You know, we lost that a long time ago. Like in the '50s, you were greasy.

Yeah.

I'm going to— yes, I'm going to bring that back, Vanessa. Some greasy little— all right, go. How much? What was the percentage? Hold on, let me guess. 1.35%. Higher.

Oh, I don't even know what it ended up settling at. Probably around 3 or more.

I was going to say, I think it's around 3.

3%. I'm counting the number of red flags on my finger already. I just have to jump in here quickly because what the fuck? A 3% advisor fee will absolutely cripple your portfolio. For example, let's say that you start off with $100,000 and you invest $1,000 a month for 30 years at a 7% return, which you can get in a lot of index funds. Average historically, you'll have about $2 million. Now let's take the same scenario and assume that your financial advisor is charging 3%. That doesn't sound like much, but in 30 years, instead of having $2 million, you would have just over $1 million. Do you see that this simple decision you made costs you $1 million? 50%. That means by going with this advisor, you lost 50% of your money. That's more than all the vacations, all the coffee, all the freaking celery you agonized for over the last 30 years cost you combined. Do not do this. Take control of your money and stop delegating one of the most important decisions in your life to somebody else working out of a freaking ramshackle office selling insurance and calzones in the same place. What the fuck? No wonder George has trust issues around money. He got burned. I don't even think he realizes how badly but he knows it's bad. Interestingly, Vanessa has also been burned in the past by her ex, but she has managed to rebuild. It's quite interesting to me that some people can experience a hardship and give up. It's almost learned helplessness. I can't do anything about it. I'm out, checking out. On the other hand, some people can undergo great, great adversity and they approach it saying, that's never gonna happen to me. I'm gonna change. I'm gonna make a big change in my life. It's totally unpredictable as to how people will react. I've never been able to find a pattern, but it is striking that two people can experience adversity and one of them can act in a totally different way than the other. Now back to George and Vanessa. The question is, does George trust Vanessa? That's where we're headed next after I asked them about this sleazy financial advisor that charged them a crazy amount. Vanessa, when you heard that George was paying a lot of money for an advisor like this, what was your reaction?

I never liked him from the beginning. He gave me the ick from the go. By the time I had listened to your book and we started exploring, I asked him like, how much are you paying? I don't know. Let's find out. And of course it was not a straight question and answer email situation. By the time we found out, because George had looked at his statements and they were always like, it was never growing. Like this guy had your money for what, 20 years? And it was close to the same amount that had been put in. And it never grew. And so I thought, I don't trust this guy, find out what he's charging. And when we found out, then George's hair was on fire and he was furious. And all of my like internal spidey senses were saying, I told you so. But I didn't say that because that's rude, but I was thinking it.

Okay. Did you think to yourself, maybe George is not super savvy with money?

No, I didn't think that. I just thought that George trusted the wrong person.

Okay, George, do you think that Vanessa is savvy with money?

Absolutely. We own a house on 1.3 acres in one of the more posh neighborhoods in our town, and that was paid for by her hard work, dedication, understanding how finances and business works.

And George, do you trust her with your money?

Yes.

Okay, hold on. Vanessa, do you agree with that?

In the business, he absolutely does. But in her personal life, there's a block there, and I don't know what it is.

I have a question. If she's savvy with money, as you acknowledge, and you trust her because she's your wife and you two co-run businesses, theoretically, wouldn't you just agree to whatever she said about money, setting up accounts, putting money here and there?

Yes, theoretically. I guess the part that scares me is I didn't realize how volatile businesses were, and seeing the downturn in our business, That scares me.

But what does that have to do with trusting her if she's the savvy one with money?

When it comes to a business and watching the businesses and finances fluctuate with that business as we're growing them, I get really, really uncomfortable with that.

I have a question. Have you two ever had a productive conversation around money?

We have lots of other productive conversations. We can talk about all other money things till the cows come home. What should we do with this spend or with this project, or how much should it cost? We can do all of that stuff. All day long. It's the minutia of the joint account and it going back and forth. I have to keep track of how much I owe him and he doesn't keep track of it. And then he says, I don't know how much I owe— you owe me. I feel like I have to do all the work.

Do you think that I'm agreeing with you right now or not?

I do.

Then is this not a moment where you kind of reflect on it and say, wow, I never thought about it like that. George, would you be on board to do that? Which might actually advance your relationship forward with money versus explaining over and over what's going on.

I think that's just habit from what I've had to do in a lot of conversations with George.

Does it work? No. It's not working with me either. You guys can keep up the same old habits of overexplaining to each other, or you can start to say like, hey, let's try to understand why each of us is in this position. And sometimes actually there's not a good understanding and sometimes honestly it doesn't really matter. Sometimes people do stuff 'cause they don't even know why and they just fucking do it. If I have a chance to kind of recalibrate this, it's that overexplaining it is not gonna get us anywhere. We just need to start deciding what's our vision together. Are we both willing to do it? Great. If so, let's make some changes. If not, let's talk about what that looks like too. Right now, do we agree? It seems like Vanessa comes up with an idea for combining income, for example, George says no, and that's the end of it until the next time Vanessa brings it up, but it never goes anywhere until like 2 weeks ago. Is that accurate?

Yes, that's accurate.

Yes.

Okay. It's clear that Vanessa initiates conversations around money and that George avoids them until Vanessa just gives up. How many people are in a scenario exactly like this? How many of you want to talk about money with your partner? Try to bring it up, but every time you do, they avoid it, or worse, they get mad. They'll say things like, why can't we ever have a nice night out without you talking about money? This is exactly why I wrote Money for Couples, because seeing how difficult it is to actually talk about money constructively, it can be soul sucking. You're not asking for the world. You just want your partner to be engaged. That is why I wrote exactly what to say, how to bring it up, even what to do if your partner storms off. You can get all of that in Money for Couples, my new book. Now, with George and Vanessa, I noticed that there was one moment where Vanessa approached him differently, and it really reinforced this dynamic. This moment was subtle, but it really matters. See if you can catch what changes in this next part of their story. We're gonna get into that conversation. Right after this. One of the best things in the world is to see your parents deeply engaged with things as they get older. You know, one of my coworkers has a 73-year-old dad who is now obsessed with AI. He started by asking ChatGPT to write a fake Seinfeld script about his friends, and he's been hooked on it ever since. Now he's up every morning with his iPad diving into the latest tools. He's talking about Gemini Advanced and Perplexity, and he's retired. It would be easy for him to be sitting on one of those freaking recliners watching TV all day. No, he's researching the history of coal mines using AI. With Father's Day coming up, my coworker wanted something that would fit his curiosity, and this episode's sponsor, MasterClass, is perfect. MasterClass has an entire original series on AI called Achieve More with Generative AI. It teaches you how to write better prompts, analyze data, get creative ideas faster, all in plain English. And If you're trying to level up your knowledge of AI at work, in your personal life, whether you're retired, whether you're working right now, this class can help. MasterClass is the only streaming platform where you can learn from 200 of the world's best, from telling amazing jokes with Steve Martin to perfecting your photography skills with Annie Leibovitz. And you get access to everything for just $10 a month billed annually. 3 out of 4 surveyed members feel inspired every time they watch MasterClass. So if you're looking for the perfect Father's Day gift, especially for the dads who are hard to shop for and they are curious, this is it. Our listeners always get great discounts of at least 15% off any annual membership at masterclass.com/ramit. You can see MasterClass's latest deal, at least 15% off at masterclass.com/ramit. That's masterclass.com/ramitsethi. You know, summer is a great time to get some big, meaningful things done. Now, I know that normal people think about backyard barbecues and grabbing ice cream. I use summer to get my trust and will in order. Wait, wait, I know what you're thinking. I don't have enough for a will. What's a trust? I'll do it later. You can protect your family and get this done faster than you think. That's why I recommend Trust and Will. There's no scheduling appointments. There's no digging through legal forms. You go online, answer a few questions, and it walks you through everything in less than an hour. My coworker actually recently created a will for her and her family on Trust and Will. Here's what she told me. Getting started was incredibly easy. I just followed their prompts, provided the info they needed about my beneficiaries, my assets, and my preferences. In less than an hour, I had a will, power of attorney documents, last will and testament, and HIPAA authorizations, all of which I easily downloaded, and I could have them executed or checked by an attorney if I wanted to. Now, I personally used an attorney for my own estate plan, but not everyone has access to a great estate attorney. So if that's you, Trust and Will is a great option because they make estate planning accessible and affordable. With Trust and Will, you can create and manage a custom estate plan starting at $199. Let Trust and Will uncomplicate the process for you. Protect what matters most in minutes at trustandwill.com/ramitsethi and get 10% off plus free shipping. That's 10% off and free shipping at trustandwill.com/ramitsethi. In your application, Vanessa, you referred to going into credit card debt. From what I understand, one of the businesses was not doing particularly well. And so you didn't pay yourself a salary for a certain number of months and you got into credit card debt. How much credit card debt?

I think it was $8,000.

Okay. And what happened after you got into $8,000 of credit card debt?

I began just paying it down aggressively, but because the interest was high, I wanted to pay it off and I wanted George's help. And I knew he had cash in his savings. And I asked him to help me pay it off so that I wasn't paying that interest.

Okay. Walk me through that conversation.

It was evening time. I told him about the credit card balance, which he seemed surprised by. He asked me how it got that way, and I reminded him that it was because I had taken no wages and I still had, you know, our life to pay for. And I asked him to help me pay it off. And I, I am pretty independent and I don't typically ask ask anybody for help. And so the fact that I was asking him for help was a real vulnerable moment for me.

How did you ask it? What words did you use?

I was pretty direct. I said, can you help me pay off this credit card?

Okay. What did he say?

He was quiet for a moment. There was definitely a pause. And then he had said, well, what would this look like? Like, would you be paying this back? Would this be a loan? And I said, no, I need— I just need you to help me pay this off. And he was quiet again. Which to me I read as a no. And then we— I let it sit for a little bit and I reapproached it again later that evening and I said, I really need your help with this. And he said, if I needed the help, what would you do? And I said, I would just give you the fucking money. Then later on that night, I think he was feeling guilty and he offered me the money and I felt really conflicted because I didn't want to take money from him feeling like he was being bullied into it. Even though I needed the money. So then I didn't know what to do.

So what did you do in the end?

I ended up having to pay it more slowly, but I paid it off.

It's very interesting. I'm struck by your retelling of the story. Do you see certain interpretations you made that may or may not have been accurate?

Absolutely.

What are they?

The one where I was projecting an assumption that he was offering the money out of guilt.

Correct. Who knows? Maybe he just thought about it and needed a few hours, and then he was like, hey, I love you. Here's the money. So yes, that's one. What else? When he's silent, that it's a no, right? Didn't hear a no, just heard silence. Maybe it's a no, or maybe it's I need time to think. Who knows? Okay, George, what do you think about those interpretations? Was she right or not?

So I do remember her asking, and obviously my wife, I want to help her. I just didn't really know how, you know. So do I go and, and take money out of a line of credit? Where do I find that money to help her pay that off? I like to have a big safety net. And now to grow the businesses, obviously I've had to use that.

Hold on, did you, did you say any of this to her?

No.

What the fuck?

All right, I know.

So you just gave her— you just were silent, leaving a huge vacuum and leaving her to come up with Maybe the worst interpretation. George, I think your questions are totally legit. The same questions I'd be thinking. Where would the money come from? What does it mean? What's the effect gonna be on my retirement, our retirement? And on and on and on. Lots of questions, all valid. But she didn't know any of those. She just thought he means no, and she just left. Okay. And then what about later when you offered her the money? Were you feeling guilty?

No, I don't think I was. I think I genuinely wanted to help. I just didn't know how. So the solution now is obviously combining finances, and then it's not a question. It's just, this is our debt, this is our wealth, instead of this is my debt, your wealth, my whatever.

So let's, let's pause for a second. Vanessa, I noticed you are crying a little bit. I wanna check in with you. What's going on?

I know that George loves me and I know that I'm not alone in stuff, but asking for help is not something I'm I'm good at, and asking him to help me, and him not telling me that his answer wasn't a no, or that he just needed some time, let me think about it, I have nothing to go on. It just reaffirmed to me that as alone as I've been in most things in my life, especially after my divorce, that, oh yeah, it's, it's gonna be here too.

Meaning you felt alone, looking back, you still feel alone by the silence.

Well, yeah, well, it certainly didn't make me feel connected.

George, you hear that word connected?

Mm-hmm.

I do. That's a word I think— I don't think a lot of men talk about. I certainly didn't grow up like hearing that word or thinking about it. It's not like a male word. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Is it for you?

Somewhat. I think that it's an important part of the work I do. The relationship that I have is that connection.

Nice.

Money's a little bit different for me, I'm guessing.

Yeah, it's interesting. So you're maybe connected to nature, would that be accurate?

Absolutely.

Okay, okay, okay, that's where we differ. I'm not connected to— I'm like, nature, what's that? Like, all right, yeah. So, but, but that's actually powerful. We all have something that we are connected to. But in my day-to-day growing up, I didn't use the word connected when it came to relationships. Certainly not intimate partners. I hear Vanessa using that word. Vanessa, how long you been thinking of or using that word connected?

Oh, as far back as I can remember.

Yeah, I've started to use it, George, a lot, being connected. And I've realized now there's a lot of different things, you know, there's different ages, different cultures, different genders, there's all kinds of forces at play here. But I've realized from a gender perspective Sometimes I tend to optimize a lot. I want to get the numbers right, or I know folks who play the opposite game. They're fearful. Okay. I think George, you would probably describe your relationship with money a lot like that. And what I'm hearing from Vanessa, which I think is a really good thing, is sometimes connection is the first thing. The two of you might even make a bad financial purchase. Maybe you waste like $500 on something, but if the two of you are connected in the grand scheme, that $500 it's not that big of a deal. But being connected is way more important.

I 100% agree with it.

I know you agree, Vanessa. George, what about you?

100%, because that's huge.

Oh, I love it. Do you see how your responses, George, when Vanessa came to ask in a tough situation, probably produced a disconnect, not a connection?

Absolutely.

Okay, if you were to be able to change anything, you could go back in time, what would you have done differently?

If I could go back and change those things, of course I'm going to help you. Let's sit down and figure this out.

Wow. Vanessa?

Just listening to that imaginary replay of the scenario, hearing George's response, like instant relief. It's not a no. I'm not alone. You are going to help me. We're a team.

I really love that. You are a team. I really love that, George, because the way you answered honors your need. To take some time and to think about it. I respect that. I would never ask you to, hey, write a check for 10 grand on the spot. But hey, I love you. I know it takes a lot for you to ask for help. And of course, you know, I want to find out a way for us to do this. Let's sit down and figure it out. Give each other a hug, go to sleep, and the next day when you're fresh, wake up and talk about it. That's the way you do it. It. Mhm. Beautiful. Okay, I like this, I like this. These are tools that you can use going forward. A lot of it is just communicating what you're actually feeling. George, do you see a therapist?

Yes.

Great. Okay, awesome. So these are things that will become much more available and comfortable for you. Fantastic. And Vanessa, how about for you? You see the same couples therapist?

Yeah, we see the same couples therapist, and I've also been in one-on-one therapy for a decade.

Okay, great. Can I ask Vanessa some tougher financial questions now? So, yeah. How did you get— how did you get into $8K of credit card debt?

Just having to pay for just life stuff, the household bills and groceries and that sort of thing. When my income had stopped from our one business.

How long did it take for you to accumulate that?

It probably happened over the course of the 8 months.

Why not bring it up with George, like after the first month?

He was aware that I wasn't getting an income.

Well, was he aware that you were accumulating credit card debt?

No, no, we wouldn't talk about that because we keep separate finances.

What's that response that you just gave me?

It's like pulling teeth to get him to want to talk about this stuff as an us. And so again, it was like, I'm on my own. And so if I'm on my own and I have to rely just on me, if I'm getting myself in, I have to get myself out. And I'm— I don't ask him because he's not the one putting that money on that credit card. I have to pay my half of the bills, and so I have to be the one to pay it out.

Yeah, it's got to be frustrating. It's got to feel alone, like you said. And then by the time you bring it up, it's a bigger problem than it would have been had you brought it up first month.

Yeah.

You said, we're a team, Vanessa, and it seems to me like when you two are in business, you're a team. You get it. You're both playing your part. That's awesome. Again, I just want to remind you That's what I want for your personal finances is for you to, to be a team. And part of a team is having a healthy culture where you can bring these things up. You can talk about it, good and bad. If one of you needs time to think about it, that's okay. You are comfortable enough to say that, hey, right now I need to process this, but tomorrow at 6, I'd love to pick it back up again. And then of course there's the structural part. Let's make sure that we have our money combined. If we need to create some rules about a postnup, we can do that. But let's really make sure our money is easier to visualize together. That's where we're gonna go. How does that sound to both of you?