“People definitely called me out”: Nate & Serena return

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I really don't like the sound of that. And it's like, I love Nate. He's my person, we're engaged, and I'm thrilled, you know. So why is it so hard for me to do this?

I'm curious. Why did you come back?

When I think back at that conversation, I didn't realize how much trauma I carried without really thinking and evaluating if that made sense for my life. With Nate.

Things are gonna start changing. After four years of med school, it will be four years of residency and one year of fellowship. I'm about seven from relative freedom.

When I talked about money, it was never empowering. It was always a sense of stress or shame.

It's kind of interesting from our perspective, seeing similar but different takes on the same problems, it really gave me a lot more peace of mind.

Achieving financial goals is a really empowering feeling. It's not something I thought I would like. I never thought I would say that sentence.

This week we are back with part two of Nate and Serena's follow ups. This is one of my favorite original episodes ever and it is pretty rare that I get a chance to speak to a couple after the episode airs. So I'm excited to learn what changes they've made and how our first conversation affected them. Join me as I revisit moments from their first episode with them and we go through their new conscious spending plan two years later. I think you're going to be surprised. Welcome back. Oh my gosh. Hi. I'm so happy to see you both. It's been a while and I've always wondered how you're Doing. So, yes. I want to get into all the numbers and everything. But first of all, welcome back and how are you both doing?

Thank you. Thank you.

Yeah, we're excited to be back. Excited that people liked our episode. In general, we are really good. I think the last time we had spoken, we had recently gotten engaged and now we are getting married in May. So we're like six months out.

Congratulations.

Thank you very much. We're really excited. Funding a wedding has been definitely a challenge, but lots of really great learnings and something we are really excited to invest in. But yeah, no, we're really good.

Awesome. Nate, how about you? How are you doing?

Been doing great in my last year of residency. So I'm about to seven months from relative freedom. We moved a little closer to where I work, so I'm not commuting quite as much on a day to day basis. So after four years of med school, it will be four years of residency and one year of fellowship. So I'm going to get some really particular, you know, skills that I can bring into a career after that that I don't necessarily have just from residency alone. So I'm going to go do a really intensive surgical fellowship and then I'll be free. So just happier, maybe a little healthier and yeah, ready for the next chapter.

And Serena, are you at the same company you were when we talked last?

Yeah, yeah. So I'm still at my role in media. I'm a full time writer and yeah, things are great. We have. So we're still like, I'm full time remote and I don't know if Nate had mentioned, but we'll be moving. His fellowship is in Dallas, so we will be moving next year to Texas and I'll just, yeah, continue to be remote. But yeah, things are wonderful.

Awesome. Okay, great. I have to know, what was it like being on the show last time?

It was a revelation I wasn't expecting at all. It really shifted a lot of fundamental ways that I thought about not just my finances, but finances that we share as a couple. You know, when I think back at that conversation, you know, I didn't realize how maybe like how much trauma I carried from, you know, the way I was raised and the way my parents kind of dealt with money around the household and. And I didn't realize how much I was bringing that without really thinking and like evaluating if that made sense for my life and, you know, my life with Nate. But I still had these like very firmly held beliefs. It was definitely like an eye opening experience for sure.

Being on the show, what's an example of a firmly held belief that you had that you didn't realize you were brave?

For sure. Like, I think we talked a lot about, you know, how we split rent. And I was like, well, yeah, like, 50. 50, like, why should. I'm not getting, you know, 75% of the apartment. I'm not getting, like, I own, you know, all the bedrooms or whatever. And then Nate is. I mean, yeah, the closet is debatable, but I feel like that's par for the course. You know, I was like, I'm not getting more apartment than Nate is. Why should I have to pay more in rent? And I was only making that decision based on, like, those facts alone. But that's, like, not how life works. And, you know, if I'm making double of what he is making, it seems so obvious. Like, I totally get that. And I feel like people definitely commented about it and called me out.

Don't read the comments. Never read the comments.

I know they don't exist. They don't exist. But no, it was like, it was something I really had to be like, oh, I didn't think of it that way. And I also. A huge revelation that came out of that was how much stress it was actually causing Nate, which honestly was in a lot of ways even more of like a wake up call, for sure. Wow. Wow, Ramit, you're just, you know, you're just out here doing the Lord's work and saving couples all over America.

Well, that's what. That's what I like to say, but it's nice to hear it from the couple. That's amazing. I honestly love. I loved our conversation, but I love what you just said even more. The realizations you had, the fact that you took the feedback constructively and honestly, the fact that you're back here to talk more. I'm like, you two are awesome. I love it. We all have things that we're not doing optimally, things we bring from a past history or just things we don't know. And it's hard to hear that you might be doing something in a way that's not optimal or even hurtful. But to be able to take that feedback and make changes is, to my mind, it's incredibly impressive. Nate, how about you? What was it like being on the episode when we first talked?

So definitely was really enlightening, just in a lot of kind of overarching ways. Kind of taking the sort of bird's eye view of the entire relationship from a more financial perspective, but also generally Speaking. So a lot of the anxieties that I personally had about my own finances sort of being in this stasis for essentially a decade basically before I'm going to actually be earning a salary that's commensurate with the amount of debt I have and all of these other issues, or that it was not. Not an unreasonable situation to be in, that it was okay, things were going to be okay, that it is just a pretty crazy environment financially for a few years, but then things do improve after that. As with a lot of people who go into medicine, there's a lot of delaying gratification and a lot of anxiety about delaying that gratification and not being necessarily as on top of, you know, having all of your ducks in a row financially in the meantime, but sort of understanding that things are kind of heading in the right direction, going to be okay. It. It really gave me again, a lot of peace, a lot more peace of mind just in terms of on a day to day basis saying, I'm not about to be homeless tomorrow, I can afford rent, can afford food, be on top of things. But not to stress as much about it because that sort of improvement is on the horizon.

Yeah, I agree. What about the relationship dynamic and the dynamic around money for the two of you? What was that like, hearing how the conversation unfolded? What do you remember feeling at the time?

I remember basically being really, first of all, very surprised just at the. The emotional base that so much of that conversation was built on, because a lot of particularly Serena's relationship with money and the anxieties and concerns surrounding it were from a. An emotional place, not from necessarily a pragmatic or an economic place. And so it was really interesting just to sort of understand the extent of that as opposed to it purely being a financial question. So that was really interesting in real time. Yeah.

I vaguely remember us interrupting the call to. I think I went into the other room and gave you a hug because I think we were both just feeling really just like vulnerable, you know. And it's interesting because, you know, if you think about finances, so much of it feels unemotional. But the truth is like, you know, I realized I wasn't being generous at all with the way I used my money and spent my money in this relationship. You know, I used to never. It sounds awful. I used to never think to, you know, treat Nate to a coffee, you know, like. Or, you know, take him out for lunch.

She bought. She bought me a coffee today.

I did. That's an improvement in my mind. Like the, The Idea of me being generous was like, we can go, like, 50, 50. And I mentioned that, you know, I do like to be like, if it's a nice date, you know, I want to feel or, like, if it's my birthday or whatever. It's like, I do like being treated it like it makes me feel like. Like a priority and something that Nate is, like, wanting to invest in. But I wasn't even doing the same for him, and I kind of didn't realize that because I was like, I'm already so great, and I do all these other things to, like, show him that I care. But I. The biggest thing I wasn't doing was, like, one of the top things I was asking for, right? And again, like, that's like. I never saw money as, like, something that could be used to, you know, foment closeness or show your partner that you care. Like, I was just like, it's. It's like transactional, you know, and it was honestly, really empowering. And it feels good to do those things. Like, I found that out, and if it makes Nate happy, it makes me happy.

Honestly. I love watching their reactions. Right now. I feel very proud of how far they have come, and I'm so impressed with both of them. Do you notice how them watching that original conversation allows them to zoom out and see things they didn't see at the time? For example, Nate was feeling trapped when he was talking about his financial situation. He just felt this mounting student loan debt, no end in sight. Now he shifted his perspective. He zoomed out. He knows that medical school debt is temporary, and he knows that with his incoming salary, he's going to be able to wipe that slate clean. That is a simple but very powerful shift in perspective. It can also apply to you. If you have credit card debt, it can feel overwhelming, daunting. But if you zoom out, if you run your numbers in a debt payoff calculator, suddenly you realize this is temporary. I'm in control. If I pay 50 bucks a month more, I can shave it down by years. Suddenly, you don't have to feel so out of control. Second, it's fascinating to hear Serena talk about her own perceived generosity. Before our first conversation, she perceived herself as generous, but Nate didn't really agree. Remember, she believed splitting rent 50, 50 was generous because that's how she experienced money as a child. But now she shifted her perspective around on generosity, and I think she's actually truly generous with Nate, which brings them closer, which deepens their relationship. This is why I do this show. Let's Watch as I show them a clip of our first conversation where Serena had a revelation around her lack of generosity. And watch what happens. You mentioned you took a break when you were talking to me, and you both got up and gave each other a hug. I remember that moment. I wonder if we can take a look at it.

Oh, my gosh. This is so, like, cheesy. But I just want to run over and, like, give you a hug right now.

Like, are you talking to him or me?

Oh, both of you guys.

Go. Go give him a hug. You guys can give each other a hug. You're going to order each other? Go ahead.

I'm taking a hug.

Go ahead.

Oh, this is so sweet.

This is amazing. So they're both getting up. He's going into her room. She's got the dog.

There's me. So he's here. He's still here.

Wait, do this on camera. Hey, I want to see this. I'm like, the leering dude, watching this couple give each other a hug. If it doesn't happen on camera, it doesn't. What a nice hug.

Look at that.

I love that. That is beautiful. You guys are too cute.

Oh, man.

What do you notice about that beautiful moment?

I mean, I feel like that was just, like, we weren't. That was not something we planned. Like, it wasn't. It was just totally, like, we felt it in the moment. And I think that's how I'm showing Nate. Like, I see you. You know, I understand that, like, this has really been affecting you in ways I didn't know. And that physical touch, that moment of closeness and reassurance. Oh, my gosh. I love that you just played that for us. I haven't seen that since the episode first aired.

Yeah, I look so young and happy.

That I know so much collagen.

You know, the thing that I noticed about it was none of us knew it was going to happen. It was totally impromptu, and there was just this moment that, you know, Serena, you were like, I want to give you a hug. And the thing that I love is when people are really intuitive about something, and I'm not this way. I'm not intuitive about a lot of things. I'm cerebral, and I plan stuff, and I model it out. But, you know, sometimes I meet, like, a really creative person, and they're just like, oh, I put this outfit on today because I just felt like it. And I'm like, what? What? What word is that?

Felt?

What does that mean? And I have been trying to learn how to be more intuitive and There are a couple areas of life where I'm super intuitive.

Travel.

I just kind of know what I feel like and I can create this experience. Money is one where I love seeing people be intuitive. And so to see the two of you get up, give each other a hug while we're talking about this complex topic felt so good for me because it's just, it's so natural. It was like there's nothing else you can do but give each other a hug. And I really appreciated that moment.

Aw.

Thank you for sharing it again with us. I'm so glad that. I'm so glad that we captured that.

We'll get back to our follow up with Nate and Serena after a quick break to support our sponsors. All right, let me tell you how your personal information is going to get stolen. Next time you're at the airport, there's something called a man in the middle. You get to the airport, you look for free WI fi. It says Free SFO WI fi. You go, that sounds great, but that WI fi is actually hosted by a random person impersonating the free WI FI option. This happens at airports, coffee shops all over the place. And what happens is when you connect, all your information flows through this quote man in the middle, which can now capture what you've entered, like banking details, social media passwords, even the fact that you follow Dave Ramsey on social media. Now, it can be hard to know if you're connecting to a legit free WI fi, so consider these tips to stay safe. Look at the address bar, make sure there's a lock and you're using HTTPs in the URL bar, and use a VPN or virtual private network to encrypt your data, regardless of whether the connection is secure or not. I use a VPN myself in hotels, coffee shops, airports, whenever I travel. If you don't want your online activity exposed, or frankly, anyone should be using a VPN, this episode's sponsor, NordVPN, keeps you safe. All of your Internet data stays safe behind a wall of next generation encryption, no matter where you are. You can turn on their feature CyberSec to avoid malware, hosting websites, annoying ads, and botnet control. When you use my link, you'll get a huge discount on a two year plan plus four additional bonus months. Get that at nordvpn.com ramit again n o r d v p n.com ramit and it's risk free with Nord's 30 day money back guarantee. Get it at nordvpn.com Ramit or click the link in the description below. Every week on this podcast, I help couples get real about where their money's going. We go deep into their spending on the csp and a lot of people know how much they spend on big things like rent, car payments, et cetera. But the smaller recurring costs often creep up and they often get forgotten about. One great example of this is subscriptions. How many of us are paying for subscriptions we signed up for years ago and don't even remember? That is why I partnered with this episode's sponsor, Rocket Money, to help you save hundreds of dollars a year by canceling unwanted subscriptions. Here's how. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps you find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions. It helps you monitor your spending and helps you lower your bills so you can grow your savings. Rocket Money allows you to see all of your subscriptions in one place so you know exactly where your money is going. For any subscriptions you don't want anymore, Rocket Money can help you cancel them with just a few clicks. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's features. Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to RocketMoney.com Ramit that's RocketMoney.com Ramit RocketMoney.com Ramit and now back to the show. Did you both watch the episode after it went up?

I did right when it came out. So it's been. It's been a while.

But yeah, I think I did, but I think I had to break it up into a few different sessions just hearing my own voice.

What was it like watching and hearing yourself on camera?

It was kind of tough for me, I'm not going to lie. Like, I. I lived through that conversation. I knew what I said at the beginning and then I sort of knew where we ended up by the end of the conversation. But definitely hearing at least like, what I was saying at first, like, I sounded like a. And it was a little hard for me to hear. And I realized, like, I think again, like you asked us, like, what's an adjective that you would want people to describe you as? And I remember, like, again, mine was definitely, I think I said generous. And I was like, this is not a generous person, the way that I was talking about money. And like, I know it came from a place of, like, fear and deep anxiety that, like, I was raised with. Like, I wasn't trying to be selfish. I love Nate more than anything. But you, you wouldn't tell it by, you know, some of the things I feel like I was saying and how firmly held those, like, beliefs were.

What did you do after we hung up? Do you remember what you did right after the episode?

So we sat on the couch where I was and kind of debriefed a little bit, and we kind of just, you know, had a conversation about where we want to go, where we want to be in the future in terms of our own, you know, interpersonal relationship and, like, what was kind of what was important and what's not important. And it kind of sparked that conversation. But I think more played out over the next few days. But that was sort of the initial, I think, thing we did afterwards.

I feel like rent was due really soon after this conversation. So we definitely reevaluated those numbers in that split. So that was definitely a. A big, you know, I would say change that took place pretty, pretty soon after. I think we've always been pretty open with talking about money, but I feel like we were both now, you know, a lot more empathetic to where each other was coming from. Like, you know, he will understand if I'm being a little cautious and know that it's not because I'm, like, not wanting to be generous. It's because I have this, like, latent fear. And once he kind of reassured me that things are okay. And then also after I was paying more in rent and realized I wasn't bankrupting myself, I felt like I could breathe and rest easy and be like, oh, I can afford a lot more than I thought I could and not, you know, have those fears that I worried about actually happen. And so I feel like we were both just a lot more understanding of each other. You know, if he said he couldn't treat me, it suddenly wasn't something that I sort of like that, like, would result in a fight or something. Like, those things I feel like just didn't really happen as much.

Nate, how about for you? I remember at the time you were commuting far, you had a high gas cost, salary was low. What changed for you about the way you talked about money?

The only thing I have to edit with what Serena just said is we have always been open with, with each other, but we may not have been before the initial conversation. We had really clear eyed about why the conversations we were having had the sort of emotional tenor or whatever sort of tone that they had. And so just going forward, being able to sort of approach conversations about money, and also add on a tag at the end of and I love you, and we're going to be okay. And, you know, being able to sort of understand the anxiety that was inherent in those conversations ahead of time and being able to communicate to that anxiety on Serena's end really did help keep things on an even, you know, an even platform when we were having those conversations going forward pretty much immediately. And to this day, I think we had a conversation about wedding planning recently where I literally ended it with, and I love you, and we're on the same team, and we got this, and it's going to be okay, and we'll be fine, and we'll get through this, and we're going to have a good time. You just be being a little bit more conscious about that.

Oh, my God. Hold on. Amazing.

You.

You too. That's so good. That is so good.

I agree with everything. I agree with everything he said, for sure.

We're on the same page. We're talking about money. It might be hard right now. Maybe the numbers don't make sense. Maybe one of us feels anxious. We're gonna get through this. We are on the same team.

I think it was very hard for me to seem we're on the same team financially when it's like, this is my money, and then this is your money. This is how much you're making. This is how much I'm making. And I have to say, it's very empowering to be able to talk about money in a way that is, like, bringing us closer again, like, reinforcing, kind of, like, the strength of us as a unit. And, yeah, I wonder when we might have gotten there if it weren't for this conversation and stuff.

I just have to say I love watching these updates. So often when I speak to couples, they are like two boxers in a ring who have each gone to their own corner. They are not a team. They are not partners. They are in their own corners saying, I can't believe you spend that much at the gas station. I can't believe you spend that much at target. And after a while, it becomes simply a ritual. We argue about money. We fight about it. It's uncomfortable. Frankly. It's unhealthy. But when we take a step back and we realize it's not you versus me, it's us as a team, suddenly we can start to make changes together. Let's watch as I remind Nate and Serena how they talked about money during our first conversation. I loved how honest you both were when we talked. Serena, especially you. You had some killer lines when we talked.

Oh, no. I'm scared.

I'd love to get your. Your thoughts on one of these. Yeah, let's take a look. At this point, we were talking about Nate occasionally running low on money, and I think he needed to ask you for help paying for something. Let's take a look. He used the word groveling. That's the word. Take a look. But Nate is really saying, like, the word groveling. That's not a word you want to hear your partner say. In any scenario, it doesn't matter if they're earning $0. They should not be groveling the other partner for anything. So when my partner says groveling, what should my reaction be?

My reaction?

Yeah. What should your reaction be when your partner says groveling?

No groveling allowed.

God damn. I thought I was harsh, but Serena is absolutely savage.

Oh, my God. That's terrible. Oh, man.

Oh, that's so good.

Nate's enjoying this a little too much.

Nate, I have to hear from you. What do you think about that answer? That was off the cuff, by the way.

We've come a long way.

We've come a long way. The perspective that you go into those conversations with is sort of the perspective that most people come out of the conversation with. And, you know, credit due where it's due to Serena, because changing somebody's mind is hard. Changing your own mind is maybe harder. And to. For her to come in with those ideas of what basically we should be talking about, how we should be talking about things that didn't maybe necessarily always match reality and to recognize, you know, some erroneous beliefs or thought patterns and to do work, real work, to actually approach them. I mean, it's why I'm marrying her, because that's the kind of person you want to be with, somebody who's actually going to do the necessary work in a relationship because nobody's going to be a hundred percent perfect except for, you know, whatever crush she had in third grade. But they. They're not real. That's not real. None of it's real life. And so, yeah, I just. I really appreciate that ability that she has to. Even if it takes a couple of conversations, will. Will understand and. And try to grow from there.

My face is so hot right now, Ramit. I did not expect those receipts to come out. And I'm. I am floored.

What do you see when you see that clip? Serena?

It's. I mean, like, I'm cringing so hard at myself right now because it's not the person I want to be at all. You know, I wish if I could answer that question again in 2024, I definitely would want to say if that is how you're feeling, then, like, that is something that, like, I need to work on and, like, understand why that is the way that you are feeling and, like, figure out what I can do so that you don't feel that way. Like, that is not a team player. It's kind of hard to watch. It's, like, definitely embarrassing. I'm glad that it's out there because hopefully, if one person could relate to that and it made them sort of, you know, rethink the way that they are, then I'll be really, really happy and excited. That could help someone.

Wait, wait. Serena, you helped a lot more than one person, just so you know.

Really?

Yes. There are a lot of people out there who have the same beliefs you had. They like to believe that they are generous, but they're not. They're focused on their own fears, letting them guide their relationship with money and with their partner, not thinking about the impact that it's having. And maybe their partner isn't particularly skilled at speaking up and articulating these things. Maybe their partner's really busy and doesn't have the mental bandwidth to. To grapple with this. But I will say, you know, I love that clip because, like, first of all, it's just so funny. But what I also. What I really love about it is that you were so honest, and that was the thing I appreciated about both of you. You came on. You were not trying to be some. You know, have some Persona for YouTube. You literally were as honest as you could possibly be. And I think that's why people resonated with our conversation. Now, some of it was uncomfortable to hear. I think, Serena, you've acknowledged that, and that's okay. Part of the reason that I have these conversations is that the stuff we talk about behind closed doors sometimes is uncomfortable. But, my God, you. You were as honest as possible. And then what is even more amazing is, here we are a couple of years later. The way you both talk about money is transformed.

It's not just money, too. We've started doing this exchange where even if we don't believe that I did something that was particularly hurtful or something wasn't necessarily my fault or the reaction isn't necessarily what your intention was, it incited sort of a negative reaction, being able to stop and say, okay, well, regardless of the intention, regardless of where I was coming from, like, I'll explain that mindset, but it still made you feel a certain way. And so it's real how you're feeling. Regardless of whether or not I believe that's what my actions are trying to foment, it's actually happening. So you have to acknowledge those feelings as they exist. You can't just brush past, you know, often a kind of extreme emotional reaction or intense emotional reaction and ignore it.

So have you two gone to therapy since we talked?

Yeah, actually.

Sounds like it. That's a compliment. I love it. Were you doing that before we talked?

We individually were, but we have since done a couple. You know, we see a couple therapists currently. I'm not the first person to say that, you know, like, couples therapy can be kind of, like, scary. It can sort of bring up feelings, like, is there something wrong with my relationship? Is this not the person I should be with? But I think for us, like, it's like, I'm treating the relationship with the amount of, like, effort and resources that reflect how important it is to me, if that makes sense. And, yeah, I mean, it's. It helps in every aspect of our relationship. Especially, I think, you know, I'll speak for myself going into this step. Like, you know, we're getting married, and we've been together for a very long time. We celebrated nine years, like, a few weeks ago. But, you know, that doesn't mean that, like, we're coasting by any means. Conversations like the one that we had a few years ago are kind of proof that just getting out in the open and having these conversations is something that really just, like, makes sure that we are, like, hearing each other.

Good. You're building the tools. You're treating your relationship with the respect it deserves. Anything important deserves respect, Time, and possibly money. And I think this is a great example of doing that. Serena, did your friends watch?

Oh, that's a good question. I have no idea, actually.

Oh. Did you ever hear anybody say, like, hey, Serena, I saw you on this thing? Nope. Whoa.

I think I might have sent it to my sister, but I honestly don't remember.

Okay, can I ask you another question, then? Now that you've changed your relationship with money, what do you think of some of your friends relationships with money?

I don't see the same amount of stress. I guess an unwillingness to spend that. Treat money as something that enables them to, like, go have fun or have an experience and kind of just enjoy that for what it is. Whether for me, I could go out for, like, drinks with a friend. But I feel like before I would still be, like, stressing out about, like, a $20 cocktail. Even if I. I said I was gonna go do this thing or, like, buy this pair of shoes or, like, go to this wedding or whatever, it was like I would sort of torture myself in the process, which, like, at that point, it's like, why am I doing it? But now I feel like I've kind of set these boundaries in place where, you know, if I'm committing to doing something or if I'm committing to, like, taking Nate out to dinner to celebrate, like, a win that he's had, then I'm trying to allow myself to just enjoy that moment and not let my, like, anxiety, I guess, sort of get in the way of that or kind of prevent me from even, like, doing those things in the first place. I guess, like, that's probably the biggest difference between me and my. I see my friends as far as their spending habits.

We had a big discussion about. I believe it was a trip to another country to visit your family, Serena.

Oh, yeah. Japan.

To Japan. And there was a whole thing about, I want you to come, but then you need to pay me back. First of all, what happened with the debt?

I don't think I paid the entirety of it, but it did contribute to a decent extent. I totally forget the details. Unfortunately, it didn't really end up impacting the trip as much as it could have or anything like that. It. It was really, really a nice experience. And whatever. That mix of me paying back and having some of the debt forgiven, it was fine because we communicated about it. Right. In whatever way. Again, barely remember.

But isn't it funny how some of the things that are so existential to us at the time then become forgotten later on?

Yeah. Like, I can't believe I felt that strongly about it in the moment. Looking back on it now with kind of a fresh perspective.

Yeah. You know, it's funny, in. In our financial lives, there's thousands of decisions we will make. Everything from should we get the cheap bread to the nicer sourdough bread, all the way up to, should we buy a house? Should we retire at age 62 or. And I never wanted to drown in those decisions because, like, if I want really nice bread, then I'm going to fight for the really nice bread. And I know that about myself. I don't want to get in that place. So I decided there are a few key things that matter to me. Our savings rate, our investments, just a few big things. The things that are going to be worth a lot of money and then I wanted to create a life where I don't have to, like, let the dark side out when it comes to what type of pineapple brand should we buy?