“The world is going to end…so why bother investing?”

I find money. It's cliche to say, but like, it's almost like the root of all evil. There's so much bad that can happen because of money.

Every time I try and have the conversation with him of, okay, this is what you should be investing, like, he GROANS he rolls his eyes at me.

Investing, it's like it feels like gambling. Having lived in many other places, there's a lot of issues I have with the way that America is set up financially for its citizens.

It's the whole thing that like, my self worth is tied to a number.

And if you don't max it out, that means I'm worthless.

And I think part of that for me is my net worth and living the lifestyle that we live and being able to shove it in my mom's face to be like, I told you I'd still make it.

I'd like to introduce you to Fernando and Anoushka. They're both in their early 30s. They're both Sri Lankan immigrants who experienced some challenging childhoods related to the mental health of their parents. They got married, they moved to San Diego, and in many ways they are living their rich life. But still they can't seem to connect about money. And when I ask them what's going on, I hear about some very peculiar behavioral issues when it comes to their money from both sides. Just a trigger warning for everyone listening and watching. Today's episode covers religion, American politics, generational trauma, and we do touch on domestic and emotional abuse. Fernando and Anoushka's story is viscerally real and I'm so proud to be able.

To share it with you today.

We were in our office where I am right now, and I said, hey, Fernando, can you take a look at these numbers with me? I've created our combined budget. He was playing video games at the time, so he was like, not right now. Give me a little bit. And I typically get annoyed when he says that he can't look at the numbers right away. So I think I probably started off a little annoyed. When it comes to finances, I just always think it's the most important conversation. So he should be able to put everything else away immediately and then have that conversation with me. But I, I know that that is not fair.

Did he eventually come by and start looking at the numbers?

Yeah, yes, he did. He, you know, scooted over and took a look at my screen and we just started going down the list of all of the expense categories that I created and looking at the numbers. And I was explaining that these budgeted Numbers are based on what we spent last year. And this is actually the first year that we are combining finances. But trying to create a combined budget where we align on all of the numbers for all of the different categories that I had made was very difficult.

Where did the problem come up?

The problem came up when it got down to the actual numbers for the budget that I had set for the specific categories.

Like what, what? Give me an example category.

Our savings pretty percentage and our investing percentage was too low for my comfort, which means we have to change our expenses somehow. He was on the same page. He was like, okay, fine, but where are we changing it and by how much? And so that's when I went over and I said, we're spending too much on groceries and expense and eating out. We need to reduce that number. And then he said, I actually kind of like our saving and investing percentage. Why would we need to increase it dramatically and why is it out of our grocery budget? The fact that it got down to such a silly conversation about how much the carton of just egg is, is where it all went wrong.

I think the reason it really got to me is because from my perspective, we spend way too much money saving. And just based on my experience like that, money can evaporate, something can go wrong, and you can potentially lose all of it. That's just based on my childhood and how the financial crisis affected us. So when it comes to setting 40% or whatever that number was of our income towards savings, it's just such a massive amount to, in my mind, throw away and potentially never see the benefits of. On the other side of that, I'm not spending on video games already. There are other things that I have kept out of this budget to try and make this realistic. How do, like where why am I always losing? Was the view I had in that. In that conversation.

How did this conversation get resolved or did did get resolved?

But it was over eight hours and then it started around noon. I think it ended like at 8pm with us compromising in her direction, but also her meeting me and understanding like, hey, there are things that Fernando hasn't accounted for in the budget by just holding out and not pursuing in his life that she was able to also help me place into our budget. So now I do have a video game fund, which I've never had in my life before, where I can say like healthily, I can buy a 20 game every few months and not feel bad about it.

So problem solved.

The problem persists where every time I try and have the conversation with him of, okay, this is what you should be investing. Like, he grows. He rolls his eyes at me. We have discussions about whether investing the money is really the way to get us, you know, generational wealth, something that we had not even thought about before. We talk about our plans for the next year once a year, but we look at our monthly numbers together. Yeah. And so I know for a fact we will have this argument again next year, and I want to prevent it.

I'm going to go out on a limb. Just a wild guess and guess that he rarely gives you substantive feedback on the budget.

How did you know?

Shocking. How did I know? Actually, how do you think I knew that?

Because I'm the one who makes recommendations for us on the changes that I think we should make. And he just kind of goes along with it.

And Fernando, you were laughing.

That is so accurate. She will be on me for a few days to be like, you need to check that and like, let me know. So I'll look at the summary view. You have little pie charts. Looks pretty. Finances have always been something that I'm like, really bad with in terms of, like, long term planning in general. So it just gets overwhelming. I'm like, all right, if we're within the numbers, I'm good. I can just like, keep pushing along.

Fernando, when you get those monthly reports.

What do you feel?

Not what do you think, but what.

Do you feel when you get anxiety? Anxiety, Mad anxiety. Just childhood trauma related to money. Like, money is just the scariest thing to me.

Okay, so do you feel that when you have to make a purchase decision?

Oh, yeah, all the time.

How about when you purchase, hear people talking about investing or buying a house or even traveling, you feel that same anxiety.

Generally when it comes to like, taking a trip or something like that, I don't have that kind of anxiety. But I do have that anxiety when it comes to something like gambling. Like, I don't gamble at all because I like, in my mind, you're just a few steps away from losing everything. And in again, it's. I understand it's like a moderation thing, but I don't want to cross that line. I don't want to put myself and my family in that kind of situation. And I think another reason that I have a lot of anxiety with money is because Anoushka helps me, like, support my family in Michigan. So, like, that is a part of the budget. A lot of my monthly income goes towards making sure that they're fine.

And just so I make sure I get this right. You mentioned you don't like gambling. Is investing gambling to you?

In a sense, yes. Okay. Yeah, I do. I do see it similarly. That's where the major conflict comes in my mind in investing. It's like it feels like gambling. I don't know if something's going to happen to the stock market and all of that's going to go away.

That's interesting. Anoushka, what do you think? Are you struck at all by the fact that Fernando feels anxiety every time you send over that monthly report?

I was at first, yeah. When he said that, I didn't think he was immediately anxious about it. I. I just thought that he would feel like, okay, great. I can. I can see the numbers. I mean, saying it out loud now makes me feel stupid because I should have realized, but I thought he would just feel, like, happy to see that we were on the right track for the goals that we had set together.

Would it surprise you to know that he probably never even gets down to that level of analysis?

I guess it's obvious that he does not.

Let's ask, because I don't want to put words in anymore. Fernando.

No, you're absolutely right. I look at it from a very high level. We are inside of the guidelines. That's all I have. But clicking on that thing beforehand is just like. It feels like I do right now. There's like a pit. Just imagining clicking on causes a pit in my stomach.

And Anoushka, just out of curiosity, when you're sitting there spending two or three hours analyzing the credit card spend every month, what do you feel doing that?

Control and calm.

It's like your meditation for the month. You're like, I don't need any spending on a massage therapist. I have my spreadsheets. Look at me.

Analyze this.

Right?

Yeah, yeah, it's very true.

And what do you feel that moment where you tell him, take a look.

I feel accomplishment.

Right.

I checked all the boxes.

Are you a project manager by chance?

He is a product manager, but I am a very type A individual.

What do you do as a type A individual for a job?

I am a business analyst.

Okay, that tracks very well.

I noticed this dynamic a lot with couples. One person, the chaser, prepares the financial discussion, crunches the numbers, sends it over, and rubs their hands together in satisfaction. Ah, I did such a great job. And the other partner, who's usually an.

Avoider, opens their email, looks at the subject line, goes, ah, hell no.

Thus begins the pursuit. The chaser chases, the avoider, avoids. The more they avoid, the More the other chases with Fernando and Anoushka. They are classic examples of this chaser, avoider couples dynamic. Now, there are some interesting wrinkles. Fernando references his childhood and the financial crisis in 2008, which has made him afraid to invest because it feels like gambling. They also support his parents. I noticed that they spent eight hours on a money conversation, which is way too long. But personally, I think the real issues go a lot deeper. We'll be right back. Now back to the show.

When we first started dating, I mean, we were in high school, college, and I remember him going to the movies multiple times a year, maybe even twice a month. I remember thinking, oh, my gosh, that is so much money you're spending on something that I could never even imagine. You know, a movie ticket back then was what, $10? I immediately added that up in my head to the amount of money it was per month, per year. And I thought that was too much.

How did you know it was too much? What would you base that on?

On what I spent.

And would you say that the two of you grew up similarly socioeconomically?

I was born in Sri Lanka, so we are immigrants. And my family moved here when I was five. We started off very poor. My parents were scrubbing the bathrooms of a big boys. They would often point that big boys out in Michigan when we drove past it. And my parents did not have college educations back in Sri Lanka. So, you know, my mom now has some college degrees, but they both worked their way up to middle class, to comfortable middle class. But money was always discussed as we don't have enough to do certain things and that you always have to be mindful of money. I emulate my mom a lot in terms of financial control. She was the one who led our family. She was the one who made sure we were saving. Yeah, she handled all of the money and she was very smart. She made sure that we had a beautiful house at the end of the day. She made sure that we could go on vacations. But when I would ask for certain small things, it would always be, no, we can't afford it. And I think very early on, I mean, I started working when I was 12 just so that I could have control of myself. For context, I think my mom was a bit of a narcissistic personality. And I became typically in like a narcissistic family structure. There's like the scapegoat and the golden child. And I have a younger sister who's nine years younger than me. She was a little bit of the golden child, and I was the scapegoat. So we had a very. Just a very bad relationship, my mom and I. From very early on, I realized that money was the only way that I could gain any sort of control in my life. Started working when I was 12, babysitting. Then I was a lifeguard. Then I did everything possible to keep my bank account and keep some savings, because then I could send out what I wanted, and I couldn't have any judgment from anyone else. Yeah.

Did you go to a lot of therapy?

No, actually, I had a terrible experience with therapy when my mom forced us to go into therapy because my parents were getting a divorce, and she was not the therapist for any of us. She made the situation a lot worse, and it just kind of scarred me, and I've never gone back.

Would you read books on narcissism?

Yeah, I've read books, articles, watched videos about people talking about all of this, and, yeah, it's. It describes us very well.

Do you have a relationship with your mom today?

Not really. I think she was just a very angry person, and I think that's a direct cause of her having to take control of everything in the house because.

She had to take control of money. That caused her to become more angry, probably.

I don't think my dad helped her a lot in. In those cases. And I'm sure she felt very alone, and she ended up, you know, taking it out on me and I that, you know, that's probably one of the areas. She just didn't feel supported.

What similarities do you see with your mom's handling of money and your handling.

Of it today, both pros and cons? She taught me everything I know about making sure that I and my family are good. And I thank her whenever I get the chance. And I tell her, you are the reason that I was able to have a beautiful apartment in Detroit. You are the reason I was able to move to San Diego. Without the knowledge that you gave me, I would have never gotten to where I am. The part I don't tell her is that the. The trauma she has caused me has made me very anxious, very scared that, like, I do, I have enough at all times. And my anxiety seeps through to the conversations that I have with Fernando all the time.

I'm struck by the example that Anoushka shares about how she thought Fernando was spending too much on movies in high school. When I ask what's too much, she says, too much compared to what I spent. Think about it. In high school, we're just scratching the surface of how money works. Hell, most adults I talk to don't realize that it's okay if your rich life is different than mine, but if you begin looking at the world by judging other people for their spending, it is very, very hard to change. I know, because that's exactly how I started off my life. I also noticed how much these early memories shaped Anoushka, how much they affected her, and how that has affected Fernando and their relationship.

Similarly, my family, we were immigrants. We moved to the US in the fifth grade, but we moved a ton. My dad's goal was to get us to the US around, like, the eighth grade or so. My dad started losing his job, and my dad suffers from a mental illness, which is undiagnosed. Also, he doesn't say that he has it, which is not very helpful effectively. After that point, he was losing his job almost yearly. And that was right around the time of the financial crisis. So we were middle class. At some point, we got up to middle class from lower class, but then after that, it wasn't really stable. So to me, money is something that could just be gone. And I was just. Some of the roles that I had in my household. I was in charge of, like, making sure the bank accounts were balanced and things like that. So to me, that's like, even looking at my bank account can be traumatic, regardless of the amount that we have in there. So I had to remember, like, the days when the mortgage was going to get taken out and make sure we had the minimum in there for that and things like that. I think that was like, the seventh or eighth grade. Wow. It got hard every two weeks or monthly, depending on the paycheck was coming. And, yeah, I didn't like it. I've told this to a few friends as well. I very vividly remember when Reese's peanut Butter cups went from 55 cents to 75 cents. When we were growing up, we didn't have much money. And I remember thinking, I'm not going to ask for that again.

Were you the oldest son?

Yeah, I'm the oldest.

All right. So when you think about even looking at a checking account, that can be traumatic. And you still feel that today?

Yeah, I. I, like, constantly live in fear of losing, like, losing all. Everything the way I've described to people. It's like, I've been poor. Like, I'm not going back, and I want to make sure, like, my family doesn't. I just want to make sure we set ourselves up to not have that happen.

I've been poor and I'm not going back. I often speak to people who grew up poor, like, really poor. And one of the phrases that they say very frequently is, I've been poor once, I can be poor again. Doesn't scare me. What do you think about that?

Scares the out of me, to be completely frank. I apologize. Like, like you mentioned, I'm the oldest son, but just like, culturally, one of the things I've always taken is, like, I will take care of my family. Like, that is my job. That's my responsibility, and I'm never going to let them experience that again. And I will go through poverty. To be frank, that does not scare me. But I will never put myself in a situation that my family, my wife will be poor like that. They will never do that. That's not going to happen.

Okay, that tracks a little bit more. I understand that you send money back regularly. I think. Is it every month?

Okay. We pay for certain portions of what's going on at home.

Can you walk me through how that relationship developed?

I think that. So that, I think, really started with when my dad was initially hospitalized. That was my freshman year of college. It's just like, whatever expenses I can take off of their hands, I want to do so so they can live a little more free of a life.

How much do you think you send every year?

Honestly, Anushka's budget could tell us. Probably. Precisely. But thousands, probably tens of thousands per year. Yes. At least. I was like, it didn't click at the time that I was doing that, but when I'm there and I see a problem, I fix it. I'll buy a kitchen sink or something.

All right, so, like, let's say about a thousand dollars a month. Would that sound reasonable to you?

I think so.

On average, 1,300amonth. Something like that.

Okay.

And how do you feel about sending that amount of money, Fernando? Like, what were comes to mind about the feeling you have?

I wish I could do more. Like, want to get to a point where I can help out more so I can reduce the amount of stress that's putting on my sister and my mom. Like, I want them to live a simpler life.

Unsatisfied.

Oh, yes, that does. Good point. Yes. Like, unsatisfied. It motivates me to try and make more money.

Do you feel proud of the amount you're sending?

I used to, but I guess because, like, it's tapered off, I don't as much anymore.

Do you feel proud that you send money at all?

Not really. I just find that, like, I Just have. I should.

Like, it's just part of your expectation. Okay. All right, Anoushka, what's your take? Did you ever have a discussion about the fact that Fernando sends money, the amount that he sends? Has this ever been a topic?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I always knew that he was going to be supporting his family. That was kind of without question. I want him to do that. I want him to be able to do that. It's very important to him. It's very important to me that we support his family.

When Anushka was helping with my bank account, at one point, I would have, like, four or five thousand dollars in my checking account and not putting it in the savings. She'd ask, like, why don't you put in the savings? I'm like, you never know. I don't know if my family's going to need something. So I always try and have it as liquid as possible just so I can use it if they need it or someone needs it.

Okay. Is there a number for you that feels good?

Not at all.

No.

Okay.

It's just more.

Right.

Okay. Oh.

One of the things Anushka helped me with was she had done my family's budget for a small period of time as well. And I had thought for many, many years, since I was about 18, and I think this went on until I was about 28, so about a decade that I had to have $60,000 set aside in savings for my family to get along for six months. And when I finally mentioned it to her, because we were having another one of these arguments over budgeting within, like, 10 minutes, she took all those numbers, extrapolated them, and said, the number is $15,000. If no one in your house is working for six months, you'll be fine. And she's like, you already have that saved. And I lay on the bed, and I was like, I'm going to throw up. Why? Because it felt like I didn't realize it, but it felt like for the first time, I could breathe in a long time. And, like, I genuinely couldn't remember when that pressure came in. It just. It just felt like I was existing like that.

One of the reasons I love this.

Podcast is that I get to bring you stories from cultures that you might never, ever otherwise encounter. For example, when was the last time you heard of a son supporting his family in many cultures? That's the way it goes. We also saw the same dynamic with Barry from episode seven, whose parents live in Pakistan. What's notable to me isn't that he did this in seventh grade, or that he still remembers the price of Reese's peanut butter cups? Or even that Anoushka is supportive of him supporting his family. What's striking to me is the moment where she showed him how much money he actually needs, and he just lay on his bed and almost threw up. For me, this is so relatable. It represents how so many of us just get on this raft of life and we start letting the river carry us. We almost never stop to take stock of where we came from and where we are. Do I even want to be going in this direction?

Should I feel good, bad, bad, proud?

We mostly just keep doing the same thing that we've been doing for decades, which, coincidentally, is what our parents did. Which, coincidentally, is what their parents did.

That's the other thing I love in.

My conversations with people on this podcast. That moment when they realize they can change the way they talk about money, behave with money, even the way they feel about money. Let's take a quick pause. Now back to Fernando and Anoushka.

Things like eating out. Like, how often did you eat out when you were a kid?

Very infrequently.

Yeah. You guys probably didn't order appetizers.

No, we went to Subway.

Yeah, Subway. Like, Tuesdays. Get the special deal. Yeah.

Okay. All right. Yeah.

I love that when I even throw out the word appetizers, both of you just laugh. It's, like, so absurd that kids of immigrants would ever even consider appetizers. Okay, New country family. I get that. Is there a point at which you get to feel comfortable about ordering appetizers?

Well, I think we're at that point. I mean, actually, to be fair, I am at that point. I don't think he is at that point. We had a recent argument at a restaurant about this, actually. So to use your words, part of my rich life is being able to spend money on appetizers and not think twice about it. And we do that now. We do that pretty frequently now. But we were at a certain restaurant, and it was right after we had that budget conversation. We had a friend with us, and I was like, okay, well, between the three of us, we're going to order these two appetizers. And he looks over at me and says, didn't you just say we need to cut down on our budget for eating out? We don't need appetizers? And I got, like, I don't know, viscerally mad because part of my rich life is being able to afford the appetizers that I could not as a child, but to him, like, it's a small amount that's not necessary, but I know that we can afford was, I.

Think, more of just like a frustration of like, all of the things I've held out on getting for myself over the years. And for example, like video games or things that I do where I've told myself, you can't do that, and then understanding now that she's at a position and we're making our life to be able to be able to order that appetizer, but not necessarily having had structured it previously for me to gratify myself in that same way by buying a video game or buying. Buying an Xbox or whatever it is.

You guys are married, right?

Yes.

How many years you've been married for?

Not that long. Two years.

Where do you two live right now?

San Diego.

That's a pretty expensive area.

Very expensive. Yeah.

First of all, I deeply understand the visceral nature that appetizers can present for all three of us in this room. I also can understand, Fernando, that this feeling of, how can you justify that when I can't justify this? Am I understanding both of your perspectives?

I think you hit that right on, like, nail on the head.

As a married couple, the most critical thing when it comes to your money is to have a shared rich life vision. And in your cases, if you were both making $50,000 together, you'd be having to make a lot of trade offs. I want to do this, but we can't. I want to do that. Well, we can't, but the fact is you both make a lot more than that. Like to have a high savings rate and to order appetizers, you could do both. So we know it's not the numbers, it's something else.

I. You know what, that's a good question. I want to save less so I can send more.

And what would that change for your family?

I think that would give my sister a lot of freedom. It would allow her to, if she do whatever she wanted, move out or maybe get a better car. Like whatever it is.

You don't know?

Not 100%. I. But I know that. I know for a fact that she spends at least as much as I do. That annoys me that I can't help her more with that.

She worked too.

Yes. She's very successful. She's smart.

Oh, she makes a lot of money.

Yeah, relatively, she does.

Oh, is she asking you for you to pay more?

No, I don't think she's ever done that. But like, I don't want to even make her feel that she needs to be in that type of position where she needs to ask for help.

Okay, and what about with your relationship here, your marriage?

Like, when she's like, I want to go play sports and do this thing, or I want and pay whatever the fee is or go out to eat, I'm like, do it. Like, I want to get new clothes. I'm like, do it. Like, absolutely spend. Even if it takes away from something that I budgeted for myself, like my technology budget or anything like that, I don't care. I would rather you live life and experience it than me putting myself over your happiness. When it comes to going out and eating again, we don't go to very expensive restaurants. We'll go to a Thai food place that we love. But similarly to me, spending $30 on that, totally justifiable. That's your thing. But $10 on a video game, I get anxiety ridden. I can't do that regardless of if I'm going to pay that for hundreds of hours. It just seems like a superfluous cost.

When do you get to come into this? Like, I hear you putting your parents first. I hear you putting your sister first, even though she hasn't asked for it and she herself makes a lot of money. I hear you saying, anoushka, like, do.

Whatever you want, even if it takes.

Away from my technology budget. When do you get to say what you want psychologically?

Like, it hurts me a lot to try and do that. Like, it makes you hurt.

It hurts you to spend.

Because I just feel like I am completely, completely wasting that money. Like, as soon as that return period's over, I'm screwed.

Wow, that's so funny, because when I buy something, I literally do not think about the return period.

Really?

No.

He has always been the one to tell me, yes, spend it. And I have always been the one that has questioned the spending. So it's sad to hear that he has so much anxiety over things like that. I knew it to be true, but it's sad to hear it like that.

Usually when we see people who struggle to spend on themselves but openly spend on others, it's women, specifically moms. I'm really glad to be able to talk to Fernando today because this is quite an atypical example. What I notice and what connects with me personally is the struggle to express what he really wants. I find that to be true in my own life and. And sometimes in my own relationship. I was never really taught how to connect with my emotions, how to ask for what I want, and I think that's true for a lot of men personally, when it comes to money. I don't love people who are only selfless with their money. That's because it's easy to only play one note with money. This is what you see when you have hyper frugalistas who save and save and are totally unable to spend. They actually consider it a virtue. Here we have Fernando, who can give all his money to others, but he struggles to spend it on himself. He also struggles to understand how money and investing actually work, neither of which are part of a healthy relationship with money.

And I, and I do. I try and encourage him and tell him, like, logically, we have the money. You don't need to feel that way. Even this year, you know, he was saying, oh, I'm going to be spending whatever $2,000 on a new monitor for his computer. He's very into computers. That's one of his biggest passions. I try and help him logically think about, okay, well, it's, yes, it's $2,000, but it's actually this much money over this many months. And also you're going to use it for this, you know, period. Like, we have the money, you can spend it. I know that he doesn't think of it that way.

Do you think that he's confused about the numbers?

No, it's like the. The fact that he remembered that the change of Reese's price of when he was 10, like, whatever it. That is shocking to me that he remembered when it went from $0.50 to $0.75. It's the same thing. I think he still has his arbitrary number in his head that he can't go over. But we make so much money, so much more than his family made.

When he was 10, you were roughly.

In seventh or eighth grade. You had to help start taking over with the family finances. Fernando. But you, you said something so interesting. You said, I wanted to extricate myself from the family or relieve them of having to pay for me. Fernando, that sounds like you considered yourself a burden. Burden to your family.

Yeah, I mean, from a financial perspective, I did. Coming from, I lived in, like, Sri Lanka, Kuwait, Canada, countries where college is pretty much paid for. Or like, there's certain safety nets for you. When I finally got to junior year and I'm applying to college, I'm like, so, dad, how much money do you have saved? It was literally one conversation, right? And he's like, what do you mean? I was like, how much? Like, how am I going to get it? He's like, you need to get a full ride. And I was like, oh, sick.

If you grew up with immigrant parents, you just get it. You get what Fernando is saying. The immigrant experience is something that cannot be replicated unless you went through it. Children of immigrants are told to work hard, harder than anyone else. I personally spent hours practicing from a bright yellow spelling bee book. My Indian friend used to read a book called Rapid Math Tricks, a book he even brought to college with him. This is the experience of many children of immigrants who know that they have to work incredibly hard to make it in a culture that their parents moved to and did not fully understand. I'm not even mentioning language barriers, cultural differences, how kids at school will complain your family's food smells bad, or make fun of your name or skin color. Those are part of the immigrant experience in America too.

I simply want to share that if.

You did not grow up as a child of immigrants, and you might not realize that an entire world exists right around you. But it's real. And Fernando knows it's real, and Anoushka knows it's real because they've lived it.

And so have I. I mean, in my mind, every time I go there, even when I go back to visit, I'm a burden because my mom has to buy extra food for me.

And so when you go back, look at Anoushka's face. She's seeing something. We'll come to you in a second, Anushka. So now when you go back, none of those purchase decisions are subject to the same level of scrutiny that you make for yourself at home? Not one.

Right.

Why? Because you are still paying back your family.

I've pretty much always thought that of myself. Like I've, I've been. I've like understood that I was like, in my mind, I've been a burden and I didn't want to be. So I want to ensure that I can do whatever I can to ensure my mom and sister are happy.

Effy, can I say something really fast about this? So both him and his sister feel similarly about being a burden. And I think it's specifically because they feel that they are the ones that locked their mom into the life that she has as a victim of domestic violence, as a stay at home mom, as now a divorcee that is working a minimum wage job. I think that they both feel that they are the ones that did that to her and that they will spend the rest of their lives making it up to her.

Well, the first thing I'll say, Fernando, is I'm really sorry I mean, I'm sorry you had to grow up like that. I'm sorry that you had the unstable parental structure. It's hard enough to grow up as a kid, no matter where you're growing up, it's doubly hard to grow up as a kid of immigrant parents. To add on all the additional things with your mom, your dad, domestic violence, mental illness. I'm really sorry you had to go through that.

Appreciate happens. It's life.

You chose something that is so rare, which is you said, I'm going to.

Become the provider for this fam.

Not for one year, not for five years, for the rest of my life. And you've told me I'll give them anything they ever need. I can be in the poor house, but they never will.

So.

I'm almost speechless because I hardly ever see something like this. I'm moved because it's incredibly generous and still I want to help you live your rich life. I suspect that's what brings us here today.

Yeah, absolutely.

This is all a lot to take.

On for any one person, especially to take on alone. I wanted to mention that in most immigrant cultures, the idea of therapy is not really a concept. Certainly not as popular as it is in the West. I mentioned to Fernando that I hope he will see a therapist and I genuinely hope he does.

Now, if we're looking at it from a 30,000 foot view, how would you describe this relationship you both have with money?

The fact that Fernando and I were able to move out by ourselves in our 20s and live in a gorgeous apartment in Detroit. The fact that we were able to still spend money on his family while we were doing that. And then on top of that, we moved to one of the highest cost of living cities in the US we have the best apartment you could possibly think I could possibly think of for our age. Like, I am quite proud of all of these things that we have accomplished. I think that in many ways we are living our rich life. When we discuss how we want to live, and I'm talking day to day, I think we are already doing that. So in my mind, that's the freedom part that comes into it. What we've been able to actually accomplish with our money. But then we take the 10 steps back whenever we discuss what we need to improve on, and. And then we have these conversations about, you know, how much are we actually spending month to month on groceries or whatever it is.

You've accomplished a lot.

Pride.

Pride in helping family, Pride in what where you live, pride in the way you live all of that pride in just doing well, that's. And you should be proud. But when you're doing this well, oftentimes.

I just want it to be a little bit easier. Right. Look at that.

Look at the looks on both your faces.

Like, yes, it was just a little easier. If we could just save a little bit more easily, if we could be.

Just a little bit more generous with family, if we could have better conversations.

Just a little bit more easily.

That's it. That's all I want.

How about you?

Absolutely.

Okay.

I guess I just always felt that my leading us in the ways I have in the past, in terms of creating a budget, sticking to our savings goals, I'm the reason, or a lot of the reason that we are able to live the life that we lead now. I've said Fernando's so generous with everything that he does, and he very rarely tells me no, but he doesn't plan for the long term, whereas I do. So I feel like. So why would I stop doing it? I don't know.

If it's working and you're both happy with how it's working.

That's the part.

Oh, yeah, that part. Let's say you had just produced destruction. Then it would be easy for me. I'd be like, look, is it working? You're like, no, this sucks. I'd be like, cool, let's fix it. But in this case, what you've done has actually been very helpful, but it's also not quite serving you in the.

Way that you want it to.

Yeah, that's super fair.

Okay.

And if we fast forward 15, 20.

30 years, I've seen it play out.

And I think Fernando has as well. I think I wrote in the application specifically that I am very afraid of becoming my mother in controlling everything and driving my partner away. And I am very scared of Fernando becoming his mother and letting me do whatever I think is necessary. And then at the end of the day, we don't agree, and it's a huge mess of a divorce, just like what happened to our parents.

Fernando, what do you think?

I think that.