“We achieved FIRE with $4.3M. Why can’t we enjoy it?”

Have you gotten on my podcast newsletter yet? Every Saturday I share a new insight on money psychology, and one of my personal money rules is buy the best and keep it for a long time. This week I'm going to be sharing exactly what I mean. For example, I bought these sneakers years ago and they got dirty, a little scuffed up, and so I took them back to the store and they sent them to Italy where artisans repaired them and shipped it back to me, all for free. I'm going to share how I think about buying the best. I'm even going to share some specific examples and dollar amounts. And the only place to get it is@iwt.com podcastnewsletter. I will see you on the newsletter, which goes out this Saturday.

He never spends any money. What does Lisa call you? Carl El Cheapo. I mean, that's a good thing to be not wasteful with your money. And why spend actual dollars when you can spend points on a hotel instead? I feel security in the investments, but I don't want to touch them. They're for the future.

Not to be too blunt, but when's the future? Wow, the silence of mortality. Maybe 10 more years.

And the older you get, the more you think about that very thing. I've heard you say prime spending years are 40 to 60, so aren't you.

Two in that range?

Yeah, we're dead center in the middle.

This isn't really what we want to be doing. We don't want to just keep throwing money on the pile and keep being.

Cheap.

I do want to look at everything based on how much it costs, and I don't need to. I shouldn't. I don't know how to change.

Today's conversation is absolutely fascinating. Meet Mindy and Carl. They're Both right around 50 years old, and Mindy is well known in the fire community. That's financial independence. Retire early. In fact, I've spoken to her on her podcast before. What's fascinating is that they are worth over $4 million. And when I say they struggle to spend that money, I mean it. You're going to hear some fascinating stories. If you're watching this on YouTube. You're going to actually see the facial expressions. And I want to tell you why I'm bringing you this story of Mindy and Carl today because I've gotten a few comments from people that we only feature multimillionaires who have trouble spending. And I want to tell you it's really important to me that we feature a very diverse set of guests on this show wealthy, not wealthy, US based international. Different races, different sexualities. We spend a lot of time seeking out couples and I want to give a special shout out to the IWT podcast team for making that happen. Now, I think millionaire couples are so unusual that when we hear one, they stand out in our head. Think about it. When was the last time besides this podcast, that you actually heard a couple with millions of dollars talking about how they have trouble spending money? It never happens except on this show. And I share these stories not because I only want to feature multimillionaires. That's not true. We have a lot of different, diverse guests. But because I want to emphasize to you, there is no magical amount of money where you will suddenly feel safe. There's no magical amount of money where you will suddenly flip a switch and become generous with money. Your feelings about money are highly uncorrelated with the amount in your bank account. So I'm going to continue to keep an eye on our guest selection process. But for now, meet Mindy and Carl in this absolutely fascinating conversation.

Would you say we're cheap, Carl?

Yeah, I'm thinking about the restaurant in New York City with our friends a month ago.

Yeah.

So we had good friends who had agreed to come up to visit us when we were in New York City and I wanted to pay for the meal. They were going to travel two hours. And the first thing I did after he suggested the restaurant is I pulled up their menu and looked at how much everything cost. And the thought I had after I saw this is, holy crap, I have to tell Bob that we need to pick somewhere else. This is too expensive. And I thought better of it. I never did that. And I felt kind of ashamed for doing this. This is a really good friend who was making a big journey to come see us.

And it turns out it was family style. So they were large portions. It wasn't like one entree was that expensive.

It was still expensive, though.

Take me back to that menu moment. So your friend suggested this restaurant and you hang up the phone and was that the first thing you did? You pulled up the menu?

It was the very first thing I did, yes.

And why did you do that?

I guess that's how I approach most things in life. I'm always looking at the costs. I've always been obsessed with money. I probably have money scarcity issues.

I mean, probably. I've been talking to you for like 60 seconds. I think we can safely make a bet on that one. What if you had not looked at the menu? What would you have felt.

I probably would have looked at the price when I got to the restaurant. I would have done the same thing. And then I would have had some anxiety, maybe a little mini panic attack, and I would have tried to hide it and then moved on with. With dinner.

Would you feel that physically in your body?

Yeah, a little bit.

Where.

I guess my head and my heart. I would have just felt a little bit uncomfortable with it. I would have looked at that number and be like, oh, wow, this is going to be one of the most expensive meals I've ever had in my entire life. I would have done some math in my head. I would have added up how much I thought the meal would have cost. And I would have tried to hide my emotions because I don't want to look like an idiot or a cheap person in front of my friends. They had. They're really good friends. We love them, and they made a big effort. And why was I thinking about money? Why did I even have this consideration? We should have been relishing the moment that we got to spend with these people who don't live near us. We get to see two or three times a year. Money should have. Money should have been an afterthought.

It's a lot of thinking.

Yeah.

Like, we went to the. Went to a restaurant yesterday for breakfast, and I saw that my daughter ordered an item that I had noticed was, like the most expensive thing on the menu. It was a breakfast. I don't know if you knew about that, Carl. I was like, wow, is she gonna. It was $20.

What was it like? What was the dish?

It was pancakes and eggs and sausage and, I don't know, French toast or something. She got just. It was a mound of food that she didn't need, which is kind of wasteful. And then when the bill arrived, I looked, I put my credit card in the thing, and then I hit, you know, 25% tip, and I'm like, $99 for breakfast. Oh, my God, what did we order? It just seems like a lot of money for one meal is. Is to us. I mean, it's not. Is to us in the regard that we don't spend $99 on a breakfast all the time.

Yeah.

Is it going to ding my net worth? No, but letting go is hard. I don't want to be wasteful because.

Wasteful means.

What if we run out of money?

Mathematically, you know, that's impossible.

Yeah.

So wasteful means what I don't want to get.

I don't want to spend and not get any Joy out of it. I don't want to do something stupid with my money. I don't want to spend it and have a bad experience or spend it and have a bad time, or spend it and say that wasn't worth it.

At their core, you'll find a pattern with cheap people and even ultra frugal people. They're often terrified of tripping and falling and then having to eat in a Michelin starred restaurant every night for the rest of their lives. I'm actually serious. This is how the thought process goes. If I go to that restaurant and I spend money on it, I might actually like it. And then I have to eat out at those kind of places for the rest of my life. You've heard this before. You've heard people say I'm not the kind of person who needs to stay out of Four seasons every time I travel. Let me tell you how I think about it. I've eaten at very nice restaurants and I've eaten at taco trucks and pizza places. I trust myself enough to know that I can eat at a nice place once in a while and not suddenly become addicted to seven course meals. I have control over my spending. And just because I try something nice occasionally doesn't mean I'll lose all control. That's one of the things going on with cheap people. They are deeply afraid of losing control. Now, when it comes to Mindy and Carl, let's take a look at their numbers. I'll give you a quick rundown. Their assets, 925,000. Their investments, 4,275,000. Their savings, 10,000. Real estate debt, 910,000. And if you add it all up, their total net worth at roughly the age of 50 is $4.3 million. When do you think that it ceased to serve you, your obsession with money, as you call it?

Probably when we reached our financial goals about six years ago. Yeah, almost exactly six years ago today. April 2017 was when we reached our financial goals and I knew I didn't have to work anymore.

Did your feelings magically change the next morning when you woke up knowing that you had hit your goals?

No. I felt exactly the same.

What? I'm shocked. You're telling me that after a lifetime of saving, you didn't magically turn into a spot? What have I been doing my whole life? How's that possible? I thought once you have the money in the spreadsheet and you show the 4% withdrawal rate, then everything changes.

No, you're exactly right. And that's what I felt too. Like, why am I not happy? Why do I feel pretty much the exact same? I started doing some research and I learned that happiness is mostly something that comes from you. It comes from the inside, not an external factor. I don't want to downplay the money. I'm so thankful for it, but it is an external circumstance. And it was at that point I learned I probably have to work on myself a little bit. That money isn't going to be be this. It's not going to flip a switch. I'm not going to be instantly happy. And I'm kind of foolish because I thought I would be.

So six years later, after that very valuable realization, which is, I agree, insightful. What kind of work have you done on yourself?

Not probably. I'll start over. What work have I done on myself? I try to pay attention to my mood all the time and when I'm truly happy, make a note of it and figure out why I'm truly happy. At that particular point, what was your.

Answer going to be? You said not probably. Can you finish that sentence for me?

I was going to say not enough. I've cut myself so busy again. Not a great life choice. I don't know if you can see behind me, but there are doors that I'm going to install my house. I've been just as busy as I ever was at work in the past six years since I left, so I haven't taken time for myself to do as much introspective work as I think I should have.

We have conversations about this frequently and we don't know how to proceed.

Okay. How hard was it for you to reach out to me to have this conversation?

Well, I heard you on the Mad Scientist podcast and I was like, I need to talk to him about this.

But we've talked before. You remember our conversation last time?

Yes, yes.

Years ago, I went on Mindy's podcast, Bigger Pockets, and towards the end, I just asked her what her rich life was. She mentioned taking a trip with her family got me interested. I started asking her a couple of questions and suddenly she started crying. It was an amazing moment. Listen in Mindy, what would you do if you had to quadruple or 10x your spending on bikes? Tell me.

Ooh, I would go on long distance bicycle trips.

How would you plan this trip again, 10x spending on this? Look at this discomfort on your face, Mindy. Why?

That's because, first of all, I didn't have any time. It would have to be in the summer because forget about that.

And Mindy and The vision. Stick with the vision. Stop thinking about the dollar amount. You have the dollars.

I do have the dollars.

How long would your Rich life bike trip be?

Probably two months.

Oh, okay. Love it. That's amazing. And do you want to have any photos of this trip?

Yes.

Wouldn't it be nice to have a beautiful professional photo of your family with the sunset behind you?

Yes.

But we could just set up a family forever. What was that?

We could just set up a tripod, too.

Mindy, you could do a lot of things. I can visually see you shrinking outside of the camera range. Can you tell me what's going on with you?

This is uncomfortable.

Why?

Because I don't think about things like this.

Yeah. And what do you think about instead, Mindy?

Saving.

Mindy, you saved. You already won. You have enough.

I know.

It's time to shift into learning how to spend it and this skill. You can see it, by the way. I hope everybody can see this, because I think you have a lot of courage to do this with me. This is really hard stuff. So, Mindy, thank you. You're being very courageous. This is. You're changing not just your own way of thinking, but what was passed down to you from your parents and possibly their parents. And here we are. Look at this. We're talking about maybe hiring a photographer. It would cost $500. It would cost nothing. It would be a memory in your family for generations. Mindy, you're having the courage to discuss this. You think you'd have the courage to do it?

You wanted me to spend money on. On a bicycle trip.

But it was quite a beautiful image that you painted for all of us, including yourself, about taking a trip. I was with you. I don't bike. And I was like, that sounds amazing. At the end of that episode, how did you feel once you went off on your own?

I felt overwhelmed because I don't think I can do it.

Yeah.

And you talk about money professionally all the time. You talk about Safe withdrawal rates, 4%, Trinity. You talk about Rule of 72, compound interest, diversification, real estate, all of it. What happened when we started talking about you and spending your money on the people you love?

I felt panicky. I really felt in my chest. Not so much my head in my chest. Like I'm having hard time breathing. This is really difficult to talk about, spending a lot of money.

Okay. And so did you ever take the bike trip?

We did a trip to Germany instead. Our daughter was going to Germany with her school, so we went to Germany instead of the bike trip.

Cool. How was Was good?

It was good. We had a great time, but we spent a lot of money on the airline tickets because we couldn't optimize for those. It ended up, I think it was $6,000 to fly to Germany and back from our home airport, and that's probably the most we've ever spent on airline tickets.

Why are we talking about. Why are we talking about money right now? I asked how the trip was because you're meat. Yeah, I want to know how was the trip? Was it good?

Lovely. We saw Berlin and Munich, and we ate lots of German food and drank lots of German beer and had a very relaxing time.

All right. Now, when I asked you how the trip was, you said it was good like that. I'm trying to understand what was that referring to? The price of the airline tickets.

Yes. I feel bad that we spent that much money on airline tickets. I'd love to be able to drop $6,000 on airline tickets and not care, but sometimes that feels wasteful.

When you took this trip and you came back, did friends ask you how the trip was?

Yes.

Did you tell anyone about the price of the airline tickets?

I did.

Who, like the. Was it? What percentage of people who asked about Germany did you tell about the airline tickets?

It wasn't the first thing I talked about, but I probably told 75 or 100% of people because I'm supposed to be this money expert, and I didn't do any sort of optimization on the price of the tickets.

Wow. Last minute you just said that you're the money person and you're supposed to be able to optimize, but you couldn't optimize, so you feel bad. You think those two are related?

Yes.

How so?

I'm supposed to be good at this. And here was a time that I wasn't good at this.

Oh, okay. And can you clarify for me? Is spending $6,000 for two is that bad at money?

I could have been better.

I see where you're going with that. One question you asked was, what were other people's reactions? And I was around Mindy when we were having these conversations, and no one cared about the money, including me.

In fact, I was confused why we weren't talking about time with your family and food and sights, and instead talking instantly about an airline ticket.

I think that she thinks she gets credibility. She wants to show people that she optimized it as well as she could have, and she doesn't feel like it, so she has to make an excuse or give an apology ahead of time. A preemptive apology that no one really asked for, perhaps.

And the biking trip, what happened with that?

We just got really busy. We are really busy. So we put things to the side.

When we talked. It really seemed to hit an emotional nerve for you to start spending money. And that was, I don't remember, a couple years ago, let's say. What has your journey been in terms of spending money since we last talked?

Kind of the same. We haven't really spent a lot. We did buy another house to turn into a rental, so it's an investment. So is that really spending money?

What else? I'm talking about stuff that you enjoy.

I don't mind spending money when we have people over.

Okay.

We have a backyard with this beautiful deck that we built and we've got a pool in the backyard and we have a lot of parties over the summer. I don't bat an eye at that, but I. I feel weird spending on other things.

We did let go with our trip to New York City and I think that's probably the first time we really let money not dictate what we do. We bought two shows, we stayed near Central Park. We went out to that Italian restaurant I mentioned earlier.

What are you talking about? You didn't let prices dictate. You told me the first thing you did was look at the menu. Carl, what are you talking about? Hold on, I gotta just. I gotta just like paint the full picture. Okay, you stayed near Central Park. Which hotel did you stay at?

Ah, it was. The funny thing was I was just about to tell you that we got it on points, that it was free.

Okay. And. And just again, Carl, what would you have gotten out of telling me it's on points?

I have no idea. The same thing. Why Midi told you about the six thousand dollar airline tickets. Yeah. I don't know why we always say that. I guess it's an issue with both.

Of us, but I. I hear people do that in my life all the time. Oh, that's a cute skirt. Oh, I paid. It was on sale.

Wow, that's so surprising. That the people around you mirror the same values that you yourselves espouse and that you are finding it increasingly hard to change your values while being surrounded by those very people.

I definitely live in a buy bubble. It's a thing in the bi community is to be optimizing your money so you can stretch it farther.

That alarmed look on your face, Mindy, the realization that maybe that is actually not the best goal to have.

I think when you're in the accumulation Phase. That's a good. I mean, that's a good thing to be not wasteful with your money. And why spend actual dollars when you can spend points on a hotel instead?

This is one of the biggest critiques I have of the financial independence movement. If your value is defined by what you don't want to do, which for many people is in that community is spend money, then number one, that's not an effective cohesive value system, because values are about what you do want to do, not simply what you don't want to do. And second, what if you actually achieve financial independence now? The only way that you can spend money is what? Mindy, as it relates to the fi community that you are so deeply embedded.

In, it has to be an intelligent way. It has to be frugally.

Keep going.

It can't be wasteful.

What if you decide that you and Carl just want to start spending wildly? What would that mean for your membership in the community that you are so deeply embedded in?

H. That's an interesting question. I don't think I would get kicked out.

What would your neighbors say?

They would talk. Some nosy neighbors.

And what would they say? Because they already think you're like. They think you're homeless. Right. I heard this. They think that your. We had a neighbor who thought we were destitute.

You told me that they congratulated us on buying our. Buying this house that was kind of a super dump.

Wow. Congratulations. You're so destitute. You were able to scrape together a few nickels to get this fixer upper. Meanwhile, they're sitting over here with millions of dollars. There are two big clues here. The first is that Mindy and Carl are embedded in a community that highly values frugality and stigmatizes spending. They've been in that kind of community and system for decades. That's why she immediately told why 100% of the people she talked to about the price of their trip rather than the memories as so many of us would normally share.