"​We lost $80k in Trump's market crash. Can we come back from this?"

Welcome to a live episode of Money for couples. It's Tuesday, April 8, and there has been a lot going on around the country as it relates to money. What do you all think? I saw a bunch of emails and DMs from you. I saw people sending me charts of their portfolio and I saw people panicking. I saw lots of people worried, lots of people wondering what is going on. Today I'm talking to a couple who lost $80,000 in one week. And that was because of the recent downturn. And as usual in our Money for Couples conversations, we're going to learn that it's not just about dollars, but there's a story behind it. And for all of us, the question is, what do we do now? What do we do with our money? What's coming? Should we be saving more? Investing, Cutting spending, spending more? What are we supposed to do with it? If you have ever made a risky move with money, if you've ever felt uncertain, if you have decided it is finally time to learn how money works, then today is for you. Now I'm going to encourage you to learn. Leave as many questions as you possibly can. I'm going to be answering questions today. We're also going to get political. Money is political. I'm not afraid to tackle those topics. Money is not just numbers on a page. Money is the ability to raise a family. Money is the ability to be okay to take care of elderly parents. It's all of those things. It's about trust. That's what we're going to be covering today.

So.

So I would like to welcome our couple who I just got a chance to meet. Let's welcome Paul and Vicki. Paul, Vicky, how you doing? Hi.

Doing good. Thanks for having us.

Welcome to my show.

Thank you for being here.

Wow.

Okay, before we jump into the many questions I have for you, can you just tell me right now, when I say the word money, how do you feel? First instinctive reaction, Vicky?

A pit in my stomach.

Yeah. And Paul?

Decent amount of anxiety.

Okay. You just lost $80,000. Walk me through what happened.

That's all on me, for sure. So I have a history of looking at the numbers a little too, too much. I have a very obsessive mindset towards finances and towards money in general. So when I saw the potential news, you know, that, that I thought, you know, I thought I had enough information to make the right choice with the money that we had in our brokerage account, and it ended up not being the, the right choice. And we, we, you know, I lost that money through, you know, trading it with the movement of the markets.

Okay, let's, let's be a little bit more specific. What exactly happened and when was this?

This was last week, right, Vicky? Last. Last week, not, not two weeks ago? Yeah, last week. Geez.

Correct.

So you saw the news and you saw the market. What, what did you see the market doing?

Even, even before the market started doing anything? I saw the news that there would be speculation that the market could go down.

Mm.

And that's when I was like, okay, it's a potentially good opportunity to make money on the way down.

Okay, how do you do that?

Well, how I thought you could do it is by, you know, shorting or buying a put. Options trading.

Oh, wow. And, and how long have you been doing that for?

That started in 2021.

Okay, how have you done since then?

In the red.

Oh, okay. Wow. This is the first options trader I ever met who actually admitted they are in the red. Funny. Every other options trader in the world, according to their own reports, is soaring in profitability. Okay, so you've been in the red from 2021 to 2024. Out of curiosity, if you had just put that money in an index fund, how would it have performed?

Well, probably if I were to put all the money that I lost into an index fund, we would be sitting really, really pretty. Probably around 250 to 300k. Yeah.

And you two are 27 and 28 years old.

Yeah, I'm 27. Vicki's 28.

Okay. All right, so what was the, what options did you decide to trade? Seeing upcoming news.

Tesla. The upcoming news was the auto tariffs.

Okay, so, so your conclusion was they're going to slap tariffs, therefore the stock is going to go down, right?

Yes, yes.

Okay, so I'm going to make money on the way down. Okay, so how, how much did you, what was your process and then what, how fast did you get the results?

My process was so last Wednesday, I believe I initially, you know, made the first trade on, on Tesla as a put, ended up making 3,000, roughly 3, 3 to 4,000. And then with my obsession over making more, got back in later that same day and had to, it didn't go in the direction that, you know, I thought it was going to continue to go in. Um, and then the following day, you know, that, that entire night I was very anxious and it, it take, it took over my life. It has been taking over my life for the past four years. But I woke up that next day. It's still not great. Um, I woke up with not the full 80 gone, 80,000 gone. But I thought I can make up the money that I did lose because the news came out and it's in my favor and that.

How long until. When did you finally realize I've lost $80,000?

It was midday when I made the decision to midday on Thursday when I made the decision to finally sell my position and, and give in to the options trading gods.

I guess those gods don't exist, but. All right, so then what was your feeling when you closed out your position being down 80k?

It was. I was devastated because, I mean, my whole thing is that this isn't the first time it's happened. And it's the most difficult thing is for me to accept that it did happen. Like it's a very real thing that we lost $80,000, that I lost $80,000 of our savings. And it's a difficult thing to swallow. And there's always, there's always the what if? Like, what if I didn't do that? And you know, I thought about the exact question that you asked of if I didn't trade that money. Like if I didn't have this obsession over making more, more and more and trying to, you know, just make money on the market, then we'd be completely fine.

You know, before we get into more, I just want to say it's pretty brave of you to come here and share this. To my knowledge, I have never seen another person, especially an options trader, share a story like this, share it so soon after happening and take responsibility and bring. Ask their wife to join them. I've never seen it, so I appreciate it. I think that the people watching as well appreciate it. And I'm not here to beat anybody up. That's not my show. That's not what I do. You wrote because you wanted help. I want to try to figure out where you are, what's really going on, and then what are the steps that you can take. Okay? So I appreciate it very much. Vicki, I want to hear from you in just a second. Believe me, I have a lot of questions for you as well. Please. But Paul, if we can just continue for a second. So you closed out your position and how did you tell Vicki?

That was one of the hardest parts because Vicky was away. She's. She's coming back home today, which really excited about. But she was away at the time singing a very important opera contract. She's an opera singer. And I didn't. It was the day before her final performance and I did not want to further burden her and distract her from her career that she's working so hard to. To do. And it was, it was really difficult. You know, I called, I called a buddy of mine first, mid, mid trade and I, I told him, I was like, I got back in again and I was, it was a tone of like, I'm disappointed in myself.

Is he a trader as well?

No, he, he. Yeah. No, not at all. And then I called a buddy of mine that got his finance degree from Penn just to try to get some last minute tips before I do end up selling the position.

But let's talk about when you told Vicki. Talk. Cut. Let's cut to it.

Sure.

You called her and what happened?

I, I, you know, told her that I, I got back in and, and lost the, that I lost money. And then she asked how much and I told her basically all of it. I was beating around the bush with the numbers because it was a hard pill for me to swallow. But eventually we got around to it and you know, the thing I admire most, One of the things I admire most is just how she's so supportive. Okay. And I know, I realize how difficult of a position I put her in with all this stuff. And that's what I want to work through. That's why I inquired about getting help from you and fixing my relationship with money. Because that is the problem in our marriage is my relationship with money.

Okay. Thank you, Paul. I want to hear from Vicki. Now, Vicki, do you remember exactly where you were when you got that phone call? Yes. Okay, can you walk me through what you heard on the phone?

I heard my husband being very anxious, very distressed. And my immediate reaction is to be the calm, cool, collected one. And so I tried to ask a lot of very straightforward, very unemotional questions like numbers, just to get a sense, just because I could tell he was very emotional at the time.

Emotional? Like what kind of emotions?

Big emotions. Anger at himself. Embarrassment. To kind of have to come to me with his tail between his legs. Especially with the fact of, you know, this has happened before. I kind of have a. I don't want to say a protocol, but I, I think I've learned how to best get the result that we both want from these kinds of conversations. And it was really just to meet his big emotions with little emotion.

Okay. Okay. What about for you personally though? How were you feeling?

To be honest, I tried not to feel, but when the feelings did surface, I was very angry. I'm laughing about it now, but it's, it's a feeling of total craze. Anger, just anger at him. Anger at myself. You know, how, how is, is anything different from previous times? And am I being an enabler? So these kinds of questions came up in my anger. But aside from anger, it was just a big sense of disappointment.

Disappointment in him?

Disappointment, yes. But also in myself. I, I, I will take responsibility for whatever is mine to take. And I realize I did not make the, the action of trading and I've tried to discourage it in the past, but if there's any responsibility to take on my end, I will take that. But I was anger. Angry, Yeah.

I would be angry too. I would probably have the same feelings and probably more anger. Betrayal, Exactly. Sadness and confusion. Like, what does this mean for us? Even $500 is a lot. $80,000 is a huge amount for anybody. I want to ask our audience today watching. Has anyone watching here? First of all, can we, can we really take a second to acknowledge Paul and Vicki both being so honest about this? Not easy to do. It's not easy to talk about this kind of stuff. I appreciate both of you. If you've ever had somebody hide something financially related in a relationship, drop a comment below. Paul and Vicki, I think one of the things that I love about our community is we find out that the things we thought we were suffering about alone. A lot of other people have gone through similar things. So I'm glad to be able to bring a community of those folks to you and to be able to bring your story to them. What does $80,000 mean to the two of you? Like, is that, you know, if you have like $60 million, okay, 80k sucks, but it's not that much. If, on the other hand, you're both starting out your career, that's a lot, what does it mean to you? 80k. Both the number and the meaning behind it, Vicki, It's a big deal.

It is a big number to the both of us. And the meaning behind it is really the feeling of freedom. That 80k was money that we had saved up for an emergency fund for a rainy day. And so with the loss of that comes the loss of security, not just in the betrayal of trust, but in the, the loss of, of that.

How long had you saved up this money for.

Paul? How long would you say?

That's a great question. I would probably say, I'd probably say in between a year and a half to two years.

Two years and vanished in 24 hours? Yeah. Okay. What did the money mean to you, Paul?

Same thing. It meant that security, it was our savings. I mean, it Meant a lot to me. Money means a lot to me, and that's. That's something that I want to change. I'm not saying that I want to change ABK not meaning anything to me, but I'm. What I'm trying to say is I. I just want to change my obsession with money in general.

Okay.

80K is. Is just a lot of. A lot of money to. To lose. Like you said, 500 is a lot, but, yeah, it was. It's devastating.

We're going to take a look at your numbers in just a second. When we look at your numbers, you. You both sent over a conscious spending plan, and that was really helpful for me to be able to understand where you are. So I'm going to pop this up. Did you two create this together?

I would say it was mostly Paul, but I've seen it and confirmed.

Okay. All right, well, let's go ahead and pop it up here. So I'm going to read some of these numbers here again, keeping in mind you're in your mid-20s. Assets, $80,000. Investments, 110. Savings, 23,000, no debt, for a total net worth of $213,000. 936. Can I just ask that 80K, would that have been on top of the $23,000 in savings?

Yes.

Okay. So, you know, you would have had $103,000 in savings, but instead you have 23. That's a big difference.

Yeah.

Okay. What do the numbers tell you when you see these numbers? I popped up 80k of assets, 110 of. What do those numbers tell you.

Me or Vicki?

Go ahead, Paul.

To me, the first thing that comes to mind is we're okay. We are in a position. We're very fortunate to not be in any debt, and it's a positive number. Okay.

Vicki, What?

Did the numbers have a positive outlook on it? Yeah.

The numbers, to me seem okay. The savings. I wish was back where it was before, just because, like I said, that was the. The fund. If one of us lost a contract, if one of us lost a job, given that our expenses are high, living in a metropolitan area, that worries me. So seeing those numbers can be a little worrisome. But at this time, I'm not so devastated because, like Pascal said, I feel like we're fortunate to be in the green.

Okay. All right, let's keep going. I want to look at your spending, so I'm going to pop the numbers up again. We're going to look at your income, and we're going to look at your spending all right, so let's see here your gross monthly income. Paul, what's that combined number, gross monthly income?

14,100.

Yeah. Okay, question. The two of you know that you make a household income of $169,000?

Yes.

Okay. Vicki.

I think I kind of knew that.

That's a no. Come on.

I didn't know the exact number, but I knew it was six figures.

Uh.

Well, that's in the right universe. Okay, so first of all, 50% of the people I talk to do not know their own household income. So right here we have the perfect example. One partner knows, the other partner doesn't. It's very common. Vicki, just so everybody understand, again, no judgment. This happens all the time. But everybody wants to know, how is it possible you don't know your own household income? What would your answer to that question be?

I think my perspective on money is very much compartmentalized. So I'm thinking about money in a monthly fashion. And especially as a freelancer, I think of my money per contract instead of yearly.

So, like, your income is variable, goes up and down, correct?

Yes.

Okay. Okay. All right. So you think of it like, am I getting this gig? Am I. What am I going to do next month or this month? And that's pretty much as far as you see.

Yeah, it's very short term.

Okay. That's. That's how a lot of people treat their money. And that's why people find themselves constantly thinking about money in this anxious way. It's like driving in the fog, and all you can see is 50ft ahead of you. You know, guy like me comes around, hey, what's five miles down the road? You're like, five miles down the road. I'm just trying to get to the next, you know, 20, 20 minutes or 100ft. But in order to. To really live that rich life, we have to be able to zoom out. Part of is just knowing our annual income. So, Vicki, when you hear $169,000, what does that number mean to you?

Honestly, it seems like a lot of. Yeah, that's great. We're still in our 20s, and we're making $169,000. That's great.

Yeah, I think that's true. I would feel the same way. Paul, how do you feel about $169,000? Household income?

Face value? It's great. Yeah. But then I automatically go to, where is that money going and how are our expenses?

Yeah, you don't take a lot of time to, like, appreciate, Give yourself a pat on the back. Right.

Almost Never.

Yeah. You're like, me. I don't know if it's a guy thing or, like, maybe it's some type of ethnic. The way Indians. We don't. We're just like, what's next? You know what I mean? That's how at least I was raised. And it's actually pretty good for achievement. You get really good at achieving things, but then you sort of never stop and appreciate it, and you're like, oh, like, look how far I came. It's just like, what's next? And truthfully, the only way that I have learned the skill of appreciation is because my wife, like, forced. Forced slash. Taught me to, like, I wrote a freaking book. It became a big bestseller. And, like, the next week, I was like, cool. What's next? She's like, what the. No, stop. We're gonna. We're gonna take a trip. We're gonna remember it and we're gonna appreciate it. And I have to say that being open to that taught me to slow down. For example, every time I think about this book that I wrote, I think about that amazing vacation, and it just allowed me to, like, be a little bit more sensitive. Vicki, hearing that, does that connect with you at all?

Yes. Yes.

Are you also, in this example, are you more, like, oriented like my wife is?

No, I think I'm more oriented like you.

Oh, shit. Both of you are like, what's next?

I think so.

Oh, my God, this is so crazy. Hold on. I need to take the moment and appreciate it. I'm the only one in this room right now who actually appreciates anything. This is a Once. This is a. This is a moment. Somebody cue the Whitney Houston One Moment in Time song. We've arrived. So both of you are like, cool, what's next?

I'd say so, yeah.

Yeah, pretty much.

Okay, that's interesting. I'm going to file that away. Good to know. Let's keep moving. You make 169,000 in your early 20s or mid 20s. That's fantastic. I think. Let's look at your fixed costs. Fixed costs are at 53% now, typically, I like to see that number at 50 to 60%. It's. It's fantastic to be at the lower end. And by having. By the way, I'm using my conscious spending plan template. We will drop a link so everybody can download this right now and you can plug your numbers in. All you need to know are four key numbers, and I'm going to show you what those are. Right now. Your fixed costs are 53% of take home pay. Your investments are 27 of take home pay. That's very high. Savings at 9%. Nice. And everything else or guilt free spending is at 10%. That's. That's low. But you know, because the rest of your numbers are so dialed in, I probably figure there's a reason for that. So for anyone who wants to download this, just knowing those four numbers puts you ahead of 99 of other people. But now we're going to drive into these numbers fixed costs at 53% since you're below 60%. I have no real comments. I do want to point out that your housing is relatively expensive at 35%. That's higher than 28% of gross. But I don't mind it because I'm guessing you either chose a more expensive place and or you live in an expensive area. Is that accurate?

The first one. Yeah. It's a more expensive place.

Okay, fine. You chose it. Great. What I also notice is you have basically no car payments. Looks like you have a subway pass. Great. No debt. Great. Your groceries say you spend 400 bucks a month including butcherbox. I don't know if I believe you guys on that. Is that true?

I think it's because we like to eat out more.

Oh, all right. So. So you're all like, you buy like six apples a month and the rest of it is going to doordash and restaurants.

No, not doordash.

What?

Oh man.

Wait, how could that be true though? Because your guilt free spending is only 10%. Something is not adding up for me living in a high cost of living area.

I honestly don't know. I mean we. We go to Costco, I guess and freeze a lot of things.

Okay.

I know that when I'm away for work, which is fairly often, I'll either like I'm. I'm pretty good at trying not to waste food, so I will. I've got my like plan of what to buy at the grocery store. That'll last me a long time. I know Paul when, when I leave him I. At home alone. He's. He's not one for doing groceries or going out to eat. He will starve instead of eating or cooking a meal sometimes.

Wait, okay, fine. All that is great. I do admire that you have a plan. But like seriously, only 400 bucks a month on groceries. If so if you tell me that's true, I. I will take. Just seems pretty low.

I can confidently say that January our expenses for groceries were exactly 400.

All right.

Respect. Yeah.

Listen, you know what? I gotta say, I love When I. When I talk to a couple, because I have to tell you, the vast majority of people don't know their precise expenses. And frankly, it doesn't really matter to me if you're off by $10. What do I care? The point of this is not precision. It's just to see the big four key numbers. So, look, if you all want to spend, like, 80amonth on turnips or something, I really couldn't care less. But I have to say, I love when a couple's like, no, we know our numbers. Look, I pulled it up. 31st to the 31st. Like, respect. I like it. All right, your housing costs at 35. How do you feel about that?

Terrible.

You feel like it's too much?

It is too much, yeah.

Oh, okay. Why do you say that?

Right now, we're in a little bit of a predicament with our landlord in our apartment. You know, we. We just had an energy efficiency audit yesterday, and there are some costs that we're paying a higher premium than our downstairs neighbors, yet they have a better situation than us. And that's something that I'm currently discussing with my landlord to try to get a rent reduction.

Okay, Vicki, what's. What's that smile?

So I think Paul is very adamant that we pay too much in rent and has tried to obviously back it up with a lot of information. I see a lot of justification and validation in the things that we're talking about with our landlord, but I think he's really taken it personally that we are spending too much on this apartment, whereas I see the positives of the apartment much more. And so I. I don't necessarily think it's exorbitant, but I do think we don't want to pay that much.

Can I ask you guys what's too much? Because I spend a lot of money on a sweater. I mean, if you saw the price tag, pretty much anyone would be like, that's too much. But what is too much? Doesn't it depend on how much you have, how much you value it? That kind of stuff?

Yeah, I think.

Doesn't it depend on this. Let me just pop this up. Doesn't it depend on if you can fit your fixed costs within this number and keep it below 60%?

I guess.

What do you mean, I guess? Well, I'm the one who created this, so I can say the answer is yes. If you. As long as you're hitting your numbers, if you want to spend freaking $6,000 a month on rent and you're still hitting your Numbers. Go for it. If you want to spend $1,200 a month on rent and instead splurge on vacations or eating out, that's not for me to say. That's why I have very little constructive feedback on your fixed cost. You're below 60%. It's your rich life. You do what you want. So what do you think, Paul? I guess what I'm trying to say is it doesn't sound like you're spending too much because you're hitting your numbers.

I guess the biggest thing that makes me say it's too much is comparing to our neighbors for the value that we get for the apartment.

Is the name of your neighbors called the Joneses?

No, it's not.

You realize you're literally doing what people talk about. Comparing ourselves with the Joneses.

Yeah.

Like, who cares what they're paying? I mean, if you want to send a letter because they're getting, you know, some better, okay, fine, send a letter. But. But are we kind of missing the point here? You just lost $80,000 in options trading, like, 72 hours ago. Which should we be paying more attention to?

Probably the options trading.

Yeah. So let's. Let's move past the fixed costs. I see no comments to be made. You're below. Well below 60%. Personally, I don't think. If I were you, I would say check and move on. All right? Your Investments are at 27%, but you lost tens of thousands of dollars. Help me reconcile that. You're investing here, but you're also options trading. How do you think about it, Paul?

So those investments. Vicky's is a Roth IRA, and then mine is maxing out Roth IRA plus maxing out my 401K.

Okay.

And those particular investments don't give me access to options trading.

Probably for the best.

Yes. And that's why I'm very grateful that I'm able to contribute to those specific accounts. Because it takes. I don't think about it. It comes out of my paycheck, goes straight to my 401k.

Yeah.

And that's that. I don't. You know, I look at it occasionally. I know you hate that, but.

No, I hate options trading. That's what I hate.

Well, yeah.

Do you see the. Do you see the irony of this? This is. I hear this all the time from people who love to do active trading. They're like, yeah, I have, like, my money. It goes. My boring money goes to my 401k and my Roth. Like, it's boring. It just goes away. I don't even see it, but it's like this money. And that's usually the crux of our conversation. But the irony is that by the time they're talking to me, they've probably lost a lot of money in active trading. Meanwhile, their passive trading is like, crushing. Have you compared the two?

I have. Yeah. Well, right. Right now, of course, you know, if I looked at the numbers today in my 401k, sure, it's down, but it doesn't give me the same, like, visceral reaction to losing my 401k money versus losing money in options trading. They're. They're two completely different reactions.

Totally agree. What do you do? What's your, like, daytime hobby? Like, I go on Reddit and I look for radicalized right wingers who I can make fun of or I read like really funny relationship stories and stuff like that is the equivalent for you that you go and options trade?

Well, I haven't placed a trade since losing all that money and I don't plan on getting back in ever again. But in the past, I would say yeah, I like looking at the numbers and I like looking at the charts and looking at live streams of people trading and yada yada.

Oh, all right. Vicky, what are you not Vicky, how many screens does this guy have in his setup? Like, at least three, right? I don't know.

It's exponential.

Two.

Two screens. There's like, I could see there's like a purple light behind you. Like, it's like, it looks like the bat layer. Tell the truth. That room has got to look pretty fucking set up nice, right?

Rumi, you have no idea. You have no idea. The half of it.

I knew it. Okay, so with options trading, you're trading on the way up, on the way down, you're making very active bets. You're. You mentioned you're on people's discords. You're looking at other people trading. It is a sort for many. First of all, most option traders lose money in the long term. Most active traders lose money in the long term, Paul, are you aware of that?

Yes.

Okay, and is your conclusion One, I'm not the average, or is it Two, I'm just having fun?

A little bit of both.

Okay. That's honest. Okay. Wow. I've always said that investing for me is as boring as watching paint dry. Like, the money goes in a passive, low cost investment account, it happens automatically. I hardly log in. When I log in, it's for like an average of 20 seconds. I look at the chart, I go, oh, bye. And I log out. That's it. When I want entertainment, I go on Reddit or Twitter or I go for a walk with my wife. In my opinion, when you start seeing investing as entertainment, you're in a world of trouble. Would you. How does that strike you? It's.

There's. I think it's true. I'm not setting myself up, and I'm not setting, you know, me and Vicki up for not even success, but just, like. Because it's not really about success. I'm just not setting us up for, like, a calm and happy life.

Yeah, that's a good way to look at it. It's kind of like she comes home from an opera trip, you know, and she opens the door, and what she would hope for is maybe, like, maybe dinner's ready, or there's like, some music playing or like, something calm. It's clean. And instead it's like a EDM concert in there, you know, and there's like Legos everywhere on the floor. It's like. And it was like, oh, fuck, what's happening here? Not the approach I would take with investing. All right, so, Paul, you said, I don't plan on options trading ever again. Question. How many times have you said that before?

I. I believe three. Three or four other times.

Why is it going to be any different this time?

I.

Want it.

One, it feels different this time with not only the amount that we've lost, but what that money was. But two, I. I just feel like I am already taking better steps. And. Yeah, just. Just, I've. I've already improved from past times in terms of wanting to change and. And really, you know, know, wanting to fix my relationship with. With money, my outlook on money and what it means to me and in our, you know, in our marriage.

Okay, let me turn to the community watching right now, and let me ask them. I want to hear stories from the people watching who have decided to make a huge change in their lives, and then they did it. And it could be changing your health, it could be changing something big in your finances, could be changing relationship, somebody. I want to hear from those folks who have decided to make a massive change like Paul is talking about, and they did it. That's what I want to hear your comment on. And, Vicki, while those comments come in, have you heard Paul say this before? I'm done trading?

Yes.

Does it feel like a pattern?

Yes.

Okay. What has your response been in the past and what is it this time?

I think my response. My responses in the past have been pretty passive, where I just Say, you know, this is really devastating. This is really disappointing. Figure it out. Whereas now I see a major change in him, and I wonder if it's because of me communicating that disappointment more and having more of an emotional reaction than I have had in the past.

When did that happen? I didn't hear that happening on the phone call.

I guess a few days after the phone call. The initial phone call.

Tell me.

Basically, I just started to try to help him understand my feelings. At the time, I wanted to be very intentional about what I was saying to him and how I felt he would perceive it. But ultimately, I think being a people pleaser, I really did my best to say what I was really feeling.

Can you just repeat it here?

You know, I was asking him, like, what makes this time any different? Like, I've heard this before. If I don't see real change, I don't know what this is going to mean for us. But I know that I'm not going to take this anymore because ultimately a number is a number, but our trust is. Is very much shattered at this point.

Yeah. Wow. That sounds like it has to have been a really hard conversation, especially for you, since. Doesn't sound like you've been that direct before now.

Correct. I don't. I don't think I'm a very direct person in general. I like to be diplomatic and gloss over things, but this is. Yeah.

Important. I noticed that because the two instances you talked about speaking to Paul about trading, both the phone call you got last week and even the conversation you just described, both of them, you led with being very considerate of his feelings, which, while important, sometimes it's not about your partner's feelings. It's about you being super clear and setting an expectation. What is your expectation?

My expectation of Paul in general or expectation of. With money? Paul with money. I expect. I expect him to want to be a team and make decisions together.

Okay.

I expect him to listen to my opinions and acknowledge and recognize and hopefully act on my opinions.

Do you expect him to stop trading?

I do. Yes.

Okay. Paul.

What do I expect myself?

No. Do you agree to stop trading?

Yes.

Cool. Okay. That's a good start. I totally appreciate that. I love that you've also set some expectations. When I talk about the conversations that couples have in this book, Money for Couples, one of the things that we cover is sometimes a partner just has to set expectations and they could be. I expect that we're going to eat dinner together every night because that brings us together. I expect that we're going to spend some time with the kids on the weekend because that's important to us as a family. Or like, I expect you not to day trade. Like, you know, it's. I told my wife, I expect one day when I get hit by a bus. You will. When Goldman Sachs calls with their 1.65% AUM. Sucking leeches and they try to get all the money under their account, she will laugh in their face and say, I'll fucking never pay a. Um. Don't you ever call me again. That's a simple expectation. Okay. All right. I want to understand now how you both grew up with money. Why am I asking? Because it actually affects a lot. I mean, there's some big puzzle pieces that are kind of elephants in the room. Vicky, obviously, you mentioned I'm a people pleaser.