“We make $226K—but our kids think we’re broke”

I know how Ramit feels about trucks. I hope he can forgive me. What do you do for a living that requires this truck?

I am an accountant.

What are you telling me, like, calculators?

No.

You don't drive it anywhere to and from work. America is so weird.

But Marcus. But Marcus. But Marcus. Hello. Hey, Marcus, wanna get a truck? Hey.

Is that common in your relationship?

Absolutely. Oh, yeah, everything.

So how do we go about getting said truck?

I grew up in Virginia.

I love D.C. but I don't know the stereotypes about virgin.

Virginia's for lovers.

One of the biggest surprises in today's conversation is how many different versions of this couple I've met. The way they describe their finances is different in their application, in our conversation and in their follow up. It's actually shocking how different they are. And that is why I want you to hear this episode. See if you can spot these moments. But trust me, you're going to be surprised by what we uncover in their psychology. Now, I got the chance to speak with them on my live tour for my new book, Money for Couples, and I have to say, I love your feedback on my recent episodes. I've actually made some direct changes because of it, like moving our CSP to the beginning of each episode with other feedback. I'm thinking about it, so keep it coming. You don't have to agree with every change we make, but we are going to constantly improve and try new things. Now let's take a look at their CSP which breaks down their net worth and income and spending. And if you want to use the same template, you can grab it@iwt.com CSP.

Okay, we have Lisa and Marcus. Lisa is 37 years old. She's a homeschooling stay at home mom.

I feel like we're demonstrating this really uncomfortable dynamic. I don't want them to grow up in this environment where it's like the man goes and he gets the money. And then the woman sitting at home crying and caring on about how she wants to be able to spend it.

Marcus is 39 years old and he is an accountant.

I'm an accountant.

I'm dull and boring and I don't like spending money. And that stereotypical accountant at your office, that is just a buzz kill. That's me with our personal finance.

Even though Marcus works with numbers daily, as an accountant, he cannot bring himself to have meaningful conversations with Lisa around money.

I do struggle with making decisions on spending money. So money talks do get unnecessarily tough. I struggle with pulling the trigger on spending Money or even talking about spending money.

She wants to dream. She wants to get excited. But Marcus shuts down and tells Lisa, do whatever you want with the money.

I really have this desire to go do something new, see new places. I feel like we should be able to do it. I guess we're getting hung up on the execution. Maybe not even the execution. Not even able to, like, talk it through.

Marcus's salary doubled in the last three years. They started with $60,000 of credit card debt. They've paid off 20K. They have a rental property and some other stuff. Let's take a look. Assets are almost $600,000. Investments 450,000. Savings, 3,600 and debt at $305,000.

All right.

Total net worth, $747,000. Gross monthly income of $18,850 per month. That's a very healthy income. Let's look at their fixed costs. 51%. Great. No comments. Debt payment at 573. And I love this. They have a note that says, final payment April 2026.

Love that.

That means they know their debt payoff date. That is very rare. Less than 5% of people know that.

Well done.

Investments. What are at zero? How can investments be at $0 per month? But they have $450,000 of investments. What the hell? Savings. They put a thousand dollars a month for home maintenance, 160 bucks a month for gifts, and 1475amonth for an emergency fund. I have to say I'm a little concerned about this emergency fund right now. They have two weeks of savings. If something went wrong, it looks like he is the sole earner in this relationship. If he lost his job two weeks and they are in real trouble, especially with four kids, that's a huge single point of failure. All right, let's move along to guilt free spending at 29%. That's $3,856 a month. One thing I'll say is this is a very well organized csp.

I love what they did.

They took some of my template.

They adapted a little bit, they clarified it.

It's very simple.

It's very clean. It tells me a lot about who they are.

Looking forward to meeting them.

Please get on your feet and give me a huge welcome for Lisa and Marcus. How? Welcome. Welcome, welcome. Hey. All right. How's it going? Good.

It's good. This is surreal.

Yeah.

In a good way. Yes.

All right. Well, welcome. You both look great. Thank you for being here.

Thank you for having us.

Who decided to apply and for you to Come out here. You did? Okay.

Oh, yeah, that was me.

Is that common in your relationship?

Oh, yeah.

Absolutely. Everything okay? Yes.

Okay.

And, Lisa, you wrote in your application, I have a couple goals that feel lofty, and my husband feels completely overwhelmed and checks out when I mention them. I'll go ahead and own that. It's a truck and a camper. I know how Ramit feels about trucks. I hope he can forgive me. Is this a joke or is this serious?

Well, it's not just a camper. We also have a boat and a lot of other things to tow.

Wait, really?

No.

Oh, God.

It's just a camper.

So you have a camper for real?

For real.

And you want to get a truck?

Yes.

Okay. All right. Which truck is it?

What model? Tell it for all of us.

So I don't know, because we don't have these conversations.

Oh.

So I have an idea of what I'd like to pick out, but I'm also.

What happens when you talk about money or this truck.

This truck?

Yeah.

We just go back and forth for a little bit, but it gets pretty heated. Intense, and then it never gets solved.

Okay, I guess let me first understand. You have a camper. Why do you want to get a truck?

Okay. So we used to tow it with an SUV that we owned, and then his company gave him a work vehicle, and he works for a construction company, so it was a truck. And now that we have the work vehicle, we did sell the SUV we were using. And now I am limited to when I can go based on his schedule.

So to you, the truck, it would be freedom.

It would mean I can. I am just desperate to travel, to see new things, to meet new people. So, yes, that truck, for me, represents being able to truly just go and experience things.

Okay. And now you can't, because his vehicle is a work vehicle.

It is. So I wouldn't be allowed to drive it without him.

Okay, Got it. And, Marcus, what do you do for a living that requires this work truck?

I'm an accountant. What?

What are you towing, like, calculators? Is this real? Oh, yeah. What is that in your hand?

That is an abacus.

Because you're an accountant, of course. Okay. This is a great photo, by the way. Amazing.

Wow.

Okay. So this is your work vehicle?

Yes.

Why?

Seriously, why do you have a truck?

As an accountant, it was part of a salary negotiation.

Who negotiated the truck, though?

That's my boss.

What?

Yeah.

I think his boss has some nostalgia for us because his boss also has four kids and used to camp with them. And we have some other similarities with his boss. So I think his boss, kind of.

Your boss, was like, let me give you a $60,000 truck as part of your salary negotiation.

Yep.

And you said, yes.

60,000.

How much is that?

Probably closer to 80.

Oh, my God. I'm so out of touch. That's a $80,000 truck.

Yep.

And, like, you drive it on concrete to go to client sites.

No.

You don't drive it anywhere.

Doing from work.

Okay. Computer. Okay. America is so weird, man.

Yeah.

Am I the only one who thinks this is weird or. Okay, please. All right, all right, all right. So you have this truck. You can't use it. So you want a truck?

I do.

And here we are.

Here we are.

Okay. Can you show me what it looks like when the two of you talk about money?

Demonstrate it right now?

Yeah.

Like, when was the last time that you really talked about money?

I mean, we've been talking about it a lot since we've been picked to come on the show. Aside from this, I'd say before, I think it was the truck conversation that.

Was really sparked it.

Let's go back in time, and I'd love to hear how that conversation went.

Like, really how it went?

Yeah, really.

Ugh.

Marcus, I'm so depressed. We're back home. I had so much fun while we were camping, and now I'm in this house with four kids. I feel trapped. It's monotonous. I need to go. I want to do something different. Okay, but, like. But how are we gonna do this? Like, I. I need a truck to be able to take the camper.

I could just go get a loan.

Oh.

Oh, my God. No, no, no, no. We're not getting a loan. That's not what we're doing. I want to come up with a plan. Plan that we can purchase a truck, and.

And then the conversation ends, and then.

It just keeps going like this, where I'm like, but, Marcus. But, Marcus. But, Marcus. Hello. Hey, Marcus. Want to get a truck? Hey, what else could we do? Well, maybe we could. If you don't want to get the truck. This is where this went. I was like, okay, why don't we move? We could move.

Can I ask each of you, in a word, how does a conversation like that feel to you?

Frustrating.

Okay. Why? Why does it feel frustrating to you?

I mean, I feel like I'm trying to talk about something fun and exciting, and so, honestly, when he's not engaging in those conversations and I guess I said the word frustrating, and I'm not really describing Feeling frustrated. I feel like he's not hearing what I want to do and how I value, like, things I value and how I want to spend my time. So I made me feel neglected.

You feel neglected?

Okay.

And how about you? Marcus said why?

Because it kind of feels inadequate that I can't just go get a truck.

It. It being what?

Our finances are fine.

Do you mean you feel inadequate?

Yes.

You feel inadequate because as the sole earner, is that correct in the relationship that you cannot simply say, here's the money. Go get whatever you want?

Right.

Yeah.

I noticed that even in the roleplay that she kind of had a lot of things that she wanted to talk about. And your response was. Okay. That pretty accurate?

Yes.

And then so the more you avoid. What is her response to that?

The more intense she gets.

Yeah. She chases you. It's really common. Like, one of the most common dynamics. Okay. Does it work?

No.

No, it doesn't work. It never works, but we all keep doing it. Why do you think the dynamic persists?

Why does it persist?

Oh, because I'm a classic avoider.

Why are you an avoider?

Mainly because money was never talked about growing up. It was one of those things. So it's weird to talk about it.

Family never talked about it?

No.

Was the dad, your dad, the sole earner in your family?

First half, yeah. Second half. My mom started working when I got older.

Okay.

Nobody talks about money to the kids.

Nope.

Interesting. When Lisa says, I want a truck, what do you hear?

Go get a truck.

Meaning she says, I want a truck, and you hear she's telling you to go get a truck?

More or less, yeah.

I'm jumping in here because Lisa and Marcus are downplaying the tension in their financial conversations.

Now, I get it.

It's scary to be on stage in front of tons of people. But I want you to watch this clip from their pre interview with my producer where they talk about this very issue.

Planning and executing is where I really start to get hung up and anxious and never finish the process. I get hung up on how do we even. Where do we even begin to go about doing this?

It got very tense, and Marcus got frustrated and told me that he felt I was being ungrateful. And he said that he doesn't feel like I will ever be satisfied. We're not even able to, like, talk.

It through anytime something like that comes up.

Yeah.

I tend to struggle with the execution thereof. Or I get anxious, like, oh, shoot, do I need to go pick up a second job or something to take care of this or like, how do we go about this?

How they talk to each other behind closed doors is really revealing. Here's what stands out to me. There's a lot of unspoken expectations, maybe even resentment. Marcus feels inadequate. He believes Lisa is ungrateful for what he provides. Lisa feels neglected and alone. Think of the weight of these words. These are really heavy emotions and none of them are positive. How you talk about money is often a direct reflection of communication in your relationship. If you are always speaking about it negatively, it's probably a good indicator that there are other parts of your relationship that aren't being communicated about positively either. Now we'll dive deeper after a quick break to hear from our sponsors. When I got serious about I will teach you to be rich the first position I hired was a personal assistant. I didn't know how to hire, but I knew that I needed help. And guess what? It was actually great. I learned what it was like to manage and hire an assistant, and my assistant got great job exposure before she went to law school. Now hiring was a skill that I would end up needing more and more throughout my career. And hiring can be stressful, especially if you've never done it before. That's why when I need help, one of my favorite places to look is upwork, this episode's sponsor. Here's a list of projects my team and I have hired freelancers for On Upwork over the past few months. Graphic designer for PDFs, a TikTok video editor, a content editor for email campaigns, and a web designer for a new sales page. It's easy to post a job on upwork. It's no cost to join or register. You can browse freelancer profiles. You can get help drafting a job post and even book a consultation. From there, you connect with freelancers, browse their portfolio, and easily hire them to get started on projects right away. Upwork makes the entire process easier and more affordable. With upwork, you can access top talent across tons of different industries, including IT, web dev, AI, design, admin support, marketing, and more. So visit Upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That's Upwork.com to post your job for free and connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's up w o r k.com upwork.com I was over at a friend's house the other day and he was telling me how people know where he lives. He's an online personality. He's like, I got to find a way to get rid of this information. I'm like, dude, delete me. I use this service myself. Join deleteme.com ramit Put your information in there. They will scan the Internet. They will remove it. You don't have to play whack a mole. They will do it for you. He was like, what? This actually exists? I said, yes. I've been using it for years. I pay for it myself. So I want you to use the same thing. Get your information removed online. Your name, address, ages, relatives, names and information, get it all removed and let this service do it for you. They do a great job and it only takes a few steps to set it up. You sign up, you submit your information for removal. Delete me experts search for and start removing your personal information. And in seven days you'll receive a detailed delete me report with what they found so far. Then they continue to scan and remove your personal information regularly, all year long. This is a service I personally pay for and I regularly recommend it to my friends and family. So if you want to get your personal information removed from search results on the web, go to joindeleteme.com ramit for 20% off a plan for you or your entire family. Again, that's joindeleteme.com Ramit R A M.

I T if we were to go get a truck right now, we'd be taking out a very big loan. And I don't want to do that. So that is not what I want. I want to have a plan that we agree upon and we talk through to figure out how we want to purchase a truck.

This kind of makes sense because I was a little confused when in the role play, Lisa, you said, how can we get this truck? And your response was, I can go get a big loan. I didn't understand where that loan thing came from, but now I understand. Your interpretation is she's telling you to go get a truck and the only way you can effectively get a truck is with a big loan.

Right?

But then, Lisa, you say you don't want that.

I don't know.

But what do you, what do you want?

I would even how you ask, what kind of truck do you want? I don't know the answer to that. So I would love to be able to get on the same page about what kind of truck do we want and then start to figure out, okay, what is the cost of that? What is the likelihood we're going to be able to find that used pre owned.

When she says I want a truck, you don't say what kind? Or do you ask her why, oh, I Know why?

She makes it very clear.

Do you ask her?

Do I ask her?

No.

Do you ask her any questions about money?

Not really. No.

What does that feel like, Lisa?

I mean, that feels accurate. It's not a feeling. Yeah.

Tell me the feeling.

I don't know. I guess I feel validated, at least, hearing that.

Like, if my wife didn't ask me how my work is going or how I feel about xyz, I don't know. I'm not sure I would answer in the same way. Does it feel lonely?

Yeah. So, yeah, I do. Like, I feel neglected. I feel lonely. I feel like he doesn't fully. I don't feel like he's interested in things that I value or, like, even if not interested, just can't see the value in what I'm asking.

Yeah, you said it twice. You said, the truck represents freedom. To me, it seems, you know? And then you tell me the additional clues. You homeschool four kids. That's a lot. That's a lot to take on. And you said, sometimes I just want to go away. I want to see other parts, meet other people. I can only imagine being at home with four kids, homeschooling all the time. It helps me understand why sometimes you just want to go somewhere.

Yes. And sometimes it's also really nice to just watch them beat a tree and, like, throw dirt around and not destroy my house.

Yeah. Yeah. Marcus, does any of this resonate with you?

Oh, yeah.

What do you hear when you hear your wife talking about a truck and freedom?

I mean, yeah, four kids at home. It's a lot. Kind of to break up the monotony, to enjoy things in life is what I'm hearing. Yeah.

And I feel like they've learned a lot when we've gone and traveled places and seen new things.

Yeah. Hold that thought. I'm sure they have, but that's not where I want to go. I want to talk about you, Marcus. It's interesting, by the way, that you really jumped in to help him avoid this uncomfortable conversation.

Yeah.

Have you noticed that, like, when was the last time you guys talked about feelings about money?

Never. Do people do that?

Yeah, that's a good answer. That's honest. Because the truth is, most of us don't. We do feel stuff about money. We feel lonely. We feel behind. Sometimes we feel ashamed or even stupid. But we don't usually say that. We say, I want a truck or I can take out a loan. And so we stay up here. We stay at the surface. When the truth is down here, that's in how we feel. That's in how we were raised. That's in how we talk about money with each other. What is the current approach you both take to talking about money? Lisa, you bring it up. I know that.

And then Marcus, I mean, honestly, after filling out the csp, it really opened my eyes because I kind of felt like handcuffed as far as money went. So why Honestly? Because I wasn't paying attention to it.

Yeah, we should just acknowledge you're an accountant, but that does not necessarily mean you're an expert at managing personal finances.

Exactly.

They're totally separate.

Common misconception.

Yeah, it's like. It's like, you know, someone saying, I want to become a bodybuilder. Let me ask a yoga instructor how to do it. They're just. But to the outside person, they're both in fitness, but they're actually quite distinct. So it makes sense to me. You're an accountant. You're not necessarily an expert at personal finances. That's fine. But Lisa, when you bring up money, Marcus, what happens?

Oh, I just hunker down and wait for the storm to roll over, more or less.

But what's the storm that you're referring to?

Her storm.

The storm that she wants something, she's going to be asking for something. And that means that I finish the sentence for me, but I have no.

Idea what I'm doing and I get overwhelmed and just kind of avoid it.

How long have you all been married?

14 years.

Wow.

All right, let's give it up. 14 years.

Okay.

Amazing. Four kids. Okay. But you made it. You made it 14 years without really talking about feelings around money.

Not feelings, no.

And what about the actual day to day management of money? How does that work in your relationship? Day to day, month to month, that kind of thing. Wow, it's really quiet up here.

Yeah, it is.

Yeah, it is.

What the.

How do you.

How do you do it? Like, how do bills get paid?

He has the bills that are automated and he takes care of those. And I'm the one that's like more managing the day to day. Yeah.

Okay.