“We took a loan to pay off credit cards—& maxed them out again”

Before we start today's show, I have a really exciting announcement that I've been wanting to share for a long time. On January 1, 2025, I'm releasing a new book called Money for Couples. For the last three years, you've heard me on this podcast speaking to different couples every single Tuesday. I've spoken to over 170 couples on this show about their money psychology, the money messages they heard from their family, the peculiar dynamics that they have around money, where they get stuck, and how they can get on the same page. Well, behind the scenes, I've been working on the definitive book to help couples get on the same page with money. And that's what I wrote for you. It's coming out January 1st. And in the book, I'm going to share how to talk about money, including the exact words to use, when to talk about it, how to teach your kids about money, even the exact agenda and account setup that my wife and I use in our finances. I'm going to share the tactics to make instant improvements, like how to set up your accounts to automatically work together and how to assess your financial health. And finally, you're going to get a deeper understanding of money psychology in your relationship, and you're going to discover why you and your partner see money differently and how to get on the same page. Now, it's one thing to listen to couples or watch couples every single week. I love doing that for you. But it's a whole different thing to be able to have the book and to be able to work through it with your partner. I'm so excited to get this book in your hands. You can pre order it using the link iwt.com moneyforcouples and stay tuned for a lot more on this book this year. Again, go to iwt.com moneyforcouples to pre order my new book about getting on the same financial page as your partner. On our episode today, he kind of.

Just wants to be able to spend. It's really hard for me to say no.

Ashley is frustrated that Brandon isn't involved in their finances. Do you ever bring up money yourself, Brandon?

Only if I want to purchase. Like one else wanted to buy the snowmobile.

She's 29, he's 30. And they are deeply in debt.

We did a debt consolidation loan, paid off our credit cards and then maxed out our credit cards again. I mean, every single one of them over $100,000.

They walk on eggshells, but their finances are getting worse and worse.

We've always had this, like oh, we're gonna make more money, and then it's gonna be better, and it's not.

And soon they have an important decision to make about their family, one where money will play a central role.

We took out another loan to pay for a surrogate, and then the money was gone and there was no baby.

She disempowers herself from having the final say in these important financial decisions. Ashley wants to pay off debt faster, and you want to live life. Is that the bottom line?

Yeah.

Guys, that's not a functioning financial partnership. Ashley and Brandon have a fascinating story to share, one that I think is very common.

This is going to be uncomfortable.

Let's meet Ashley and Brandon.

Right now. Our goal is getting out of debt. I brought up the idea of selling a vehicle that is not a necessity. It's Brandon's truck, and it wasn't an argument necessarily, but just isn't something that we agree on because he doesn't want to sell it.

Okay, paint the picture for me.

I work from home, so if I need a vehicle, I will get up in the morning and I will drive you to work, and then I will have the vehicle for the day and I will go pick you up. And I tried to problem solve needing two vehicles. He did not feel comfortable selling it.

What do you say?

He had reasons why. Because we have a boat that we don't use.

What? You have a truck and a boat? Okay, go on.

A boat sounds fancy. It's not. And he does do some, like, woodworking, builds garden boxes. And when he delivers them, he needs the truck to deliver them. And he just likes the truck. If he wants to haul his snowmobile, he can't haul his snowmobile without the truck. If he wants to haul his four wheeler, he can't haul his four wheeler without the truck.

Is this a joke?

No.

No. All right. We might as well just get a full inventory of all the stuff you own. So you have a big truck, a snowmobile, a four wheeler, a boat. What else?

Pit bike.

What. What is that? Oh, like one of those bikes on the. That goes on the dirt.

Yeah, it's like a dirt bike, but it's a smaller version.

Okay. All right, go on. So you suggested the gentle idea of perhaps selling the truck, and then he said, what?

And it was always like, yeah, I don't think I want to sell it. And that's still where we're at with it.

Brandon, what do you remember about that conversation?

She asked to sell it, and I gave her the reasons why I didn't want to And I enjoy having the truck for when I do need it.

Do you ever bring up money yourself, Brandon?

Only if I want to purchase. Like when I was wanted to buy the snowmobile.

How did you bring it up?

I told her that I had found the snowmobile and it was really good price for what it was and that I enjoyed riding them when I was younger and just wanted to get back into snowmobiling.

Is there an ask it there or were you telling her or what was the deal?

She had looked over the budget and we ended up getting a little loan for it and then went and picked it up.

How much was the snowmobile?

2,500 bucks.

What interest rate do you know?

I don't know, Ashley, don't remember.

How long did it take you to pay off?

Yeah. Three or four years.

Oh. What do you think about that? I shouldn't have given my reaction the way that's why I don't play poker. All right, well, even knowing my reaction, what do you think about four years to pay off a $2,500 loan?

Looking back at it, I probably should have waited.

Yeah. For what?

Till we had the money.

So the primary challenge that you're both facing is you have debt and you disagree about how aggressively to pay it off. Is that right?

Yeah.

All right, Ashley, you want to pay it off, what?

As aggressively as possible. So right now we're paying way over what our minimum payments are to try and get our especially the credit card debt paid off as soon as we can. That's kind of been my main focus because the interest rate is so high. And then after that we, I have kind of a debt payoff schedule that's snowballing all of the payments.

Okay. And Brandon, I was more of minimum.

Payments just so we weren't strapped.

Do you know how much you spend per year?

I don't know.

I think we spend more than we need to. So I know that we could be putting more towards it.

Okay.

But I know that Brandon has expressed not wanting to stop living and stop having some of the luxuries of life to pay off the debt that we've accumulated. So I'm trying to find some kind of balance between those two things.

Okay. Why are you the one finding the balance, Ashley? Out of curiosity.

He doesn't really have any or doesn't seem to have any interest in figuring out the financial piece of it.

Does that concern you?

It frustrates me because it feels like it's all kind of on my shoulders sometimes to figure out how we're Getting out of the debt or when. Because things weren't always what they are right now, like salary wise or whatever. But when we have been in a worse situation, I was always the one figuring out where, you know, rent was coming from or how we're paying the mortgage. And now I'm the one figuring out how we're going to get, you know, pay off our debt. And he kind of just wants to be able to spend the money.

Why are you the one doing it?

I don't know why he doesn't want a piece of it. I don't know if he thinks he can't. I try and get him to sit down with me to like pay the bills and do it together, but he just doesn't seem to be interested in doing it together.

I'm going to ask again, same question. Why are you the one doing it?

I mean, somebody's got to do it.

We'll be right back. Let's get back to the conversation. Brandon, what's your reaction hearing Ashley talk about how she describes herself taking on a lot of the financial burden in the house, the responsibility.

I totally agree. I guess I just felt like she had a more understanding and knew how everything worked.

I guess then like when she says, hey, we need to sell this truck, wouldn't you just go, sure, you're the one who runs the money. I'll do what you say.

I mean, I guess, yeah, now I guess it's. I've got a different look at things and realize that there is a lot of debt that needs to be taken care of. I do want to get on the same page and get it figured out on what can be done and try to be more involved with it, I guess.

Okay. Ashley, did you know this?

No, this is the first that I'm hearing this.

So should we just make the debt payoff plan right now?

I mean, it's sounds good to me.

I mean, that was the least convincing thing I've ever heard on this podcast. Come on, you have a guy who owns a truck, a snowmobile and tons of other toys. He avoids money, he doesn't want to sell the truck. And suddenly in the first three minutes of our conversation, he says he wants to make a debt payoff plan. I don't buy it. Not in a million years. One mistake here would be for me to simply take his comment at face value, bulldoze through some plan and then hand it over to them, knowing that they are never going to execute on it. There's just not enough foundation yet. So I would rather slow down. Try to understand what's going on here, even if it means taking more time, a lot more time to push him to get honest.

I guess just growing up, I. We didn't ever have money to do anything or buy stuff.

You grew up poor, right?

Yeah.

When you think about being a kid with your parents, what kind of phrases you remember them saying about money when you were a kid?

I heard a lot of just, we don't have money for that. I just thought that was how life was. And then after moving out and realizing that there is more than what I had, that that's what I just had, a poor life.

Growing up, he lived in an unfinished basement. His bedroom didn't have a door.

Really quickly, if you enjoy these videos and you want to be the first to know when we release next week's, make sure you hit that subscribe button now. It helps me and it helps my team grow.

Like, he just lived in a very different way than I did. Like, their holidays were different. The first Christmas I was at his family, there were like five presents under the tree for three kids. You just felt like they just couldn't give to them. But I think it also was a combination of couldn't and wouldn't.

Wouldn't means what?

I think they were a little more selfish with how they spent their money than how my family spent their money. So when they had money, they spent it on things like alcohol and cigarettes and things that his parents wanted and not things that they would go towards their kids.

Brandon, what lessons did your parents teach you about money? Knowingly or unknowingly?

There wasn't a whole lot of teaching. I. My dad had a notebook that he would write down, like, the bills and stuff, and that's how he would pay them.

Ashley mentioned the alcohol and the cigarettes that your parents got. What do you make of that when it comes to spending?

Back then, I didn't really think about it, but growing up, as I got older, I realized that it wasn't something that they needed. It was just something that they wanted.

What's the difference?

That it wasn't a necessity?

Are you resentful at all?

Yeah, I would say yeah. Just because they made it a priority to spend the money on that kind of stuff instead of things that we could have used.

How do you feel looking back on your upbringing? How do you feel about the money part specifically now?

I feel great on the money that we do have.

Tell me more. What do you mean?

I guess just being able to buy the things that I do have and being able to appreciate that stuff and having the opportunity to do those things that I enjoy. Got the four wheeler and snowmobile and stuff. And then I ended up losing my brother in 2018 and just thought that enjoying life was more important.

Important than what?

Paying off all the debt right away.

Got it. Okay. Sorry about your brother. Thank you. So after that happened, you already had debt at that point, and did you just accelerate your spending at that point?

Yeah, I would say it got worse.

Brandon learned that he has to live for today, like many people who grew up poor. And his brother's tragic death obviously played a role as well.

So my parents are divorced, so I had two households, and they were managed very differently. My mom, it was just her in our house, and it was definitely more difficult. She never would say anything about money, but I could tell in, like, how we would eat dinner. Like, I knew that if we were having, like, ramen for dinner, that that was, like, a time that things were tight. If we were having chicken, then I knew that that was, like, a good. A good week that we had money to, like, have meat for dinner.

Did you learn to pick up on these subtle signs and then regulate your own behavior and what you said to your parents?

I mean, once I got to an age where I could tell that. That there was a difference, I tried not to ask for things unless I needed it. And I really tried not to ask for things just because I wanted it or just because it was cool to have it or because kids at school had it. I didn't have, like, the cool sneakers or the cool backpack or the cool clothes because it was too expensive. So I didn't ask to shop at those stores. Like, we would shop at Kohl's because their clothes were cheaper than shopping at Abercrombie or wherever kids were getting clothes from.

What lessons did your parents teach you about money knowingly or unknowingly?

Just spend money when you have it.

Oh, why is that? Spend money when you have it because.

Because you don't know when you're gonna have it again.

So did you learn about anything long term related to money saving? I know it wasn't investing.

Oh, no.

Saving?

No.

Okay. No phrases like put money away for a rainy day or something like that?

No.

I'm asking because she dances around topics with Brandon. Like she said, I suggested a lot of things. I told him I would pick him up from work. And people who do this, they dance around. They walk on eggshells. They often learn it from one of their parents. And common examples are an alcoholic or narcissistic parent. Although it doesn't always have to be that extreme. But give me the bottom line here. What is it? Ashley wants to pay off debt faster and you want to live life. Is that the bottom line?

Yeah.

Can we back up and talk about what's really going on here? How long have you two been married?

Seven years.

Okay. And how did you meet?

Through Facebook.

Okay, cool. Were you. Did you grow up in the same area?

No, we lived an hour apart from each other.

Okay, what general vicinity was that?

Minnesota.

What age were you when you met Ashley?

17.

17. Okay. And what was your financial situation between, like, 17 to 20?

Not good. Wasn't making a whole lot of money. She paid for a lot of stuff.

Oh. From day one?

Everything.

Whoa. Tell me about this.

Dinners, movies, clothes, food.

Did you like that, Brandon?

Not really, no.

I wanted Brandon to get a job. He didn't have a job when we started dating, and he didn't want to get a job.

Huh. Why not?

His family was very different than mine. And I had a lot of ambition and I had a lot of encouragement and motivation at home.

Okay.

They just wanted me to be home as long as possible.

I think just like small town. We don't want you going away for sure. Maybe you get some different ideas, but basically, like, family is important and we want to stay a tight unit.

Right?

Right.

Yeah.

I think we discussed it for a good, I don't know, six months before I was like, did or get off the pot, basically. And he did get a job that he biked to.

How much did you make at that job, Brandon?

I think I started off at, like, 575.

Okay. Yeah, 575 an hour. All right.

I don't care about paying for anything. I cared about the intention behind him not paying for anything. Even if he paid for one out of 10 things, I was fine with that if he was doing something.

Now back to the show. Yeah. It's not about how much somebody makes down to the second decimal place. It's not about what micro percentage they contribute. It's about, are we aligned on values? Do you want to work? Do you want to be a partner in this business? The business of running a household together?

Yeah.

So you basically created sort of a soft ultimatum, or maybe it was a true ultimatum, like get a job or get out. Was that it?

Yeah.

Damn. And it worked?

It did.

What do we all learn from this example? Anybody? What is it?

Well, I think it was good that I was more firm and expressing my needs.

You told me you talked about it for Six months. And the only thing that got Brandon to change was what?

Giving him an ultimatum.

Brandon, do you, do you receive that message?

Yeah.

You think that that's true?

Yeah, I do.

Does she still pay for more?

I guess, yeah.

What do you understand about your family finances?

That I never paid attention to it at all.

Okay, so y' all got married. Did anything change with your finances after you got married?

We did something big after we got married. Maybe you could say that.

Bought the house.

How much did the house cost?

155.

155. Okay. How'd you decide that you were going to buy a house and also how much house you could afford? Can I interrupt for a second? Do you feel like you're being interrogated right now, Brandon? I feel like I'm pulling teeth to get answers out of you.

I guess there is things I just don't know.

Sometimes the most powerful thing you can do is to call out the elephant in the room. That is true in business. That is true in personal life. Brandon has been replying to me with one word answers since we started talking coming on here. Talking about their financial details is uncomfortable. I get that. But I also know that they called me for help. My team prepped them, tells them exactly what to expect. We require them to listen to at least one previous episode and we give them multiple chances to say no to before they ever talk to me. So anyone who comes on this show really, really wants to be here. That's why it is extremely hard for me to work with someone if they're not present and they're giving me short one word answers. What I'm hearing is you two don't communicate about money a lot, correct?

Correct.

We communicate about money. When he tells me that he's frustrated that he feels like we don't have any money.

Okay, how often does that happen?

Frequently.

If we're making more than what we used to be, how come we're always so tight on money?

And when you're asking Ashley that question, what are you hoping she tells you?

I guess I was hoping that she would say that there is more money that would we could be spending. I mean, I still want to be able to do stuff and not put ourselves in a place where we can't enjoy doing things but still want to be able to pay off our debt quicker.

Okay, I'll take you at your word. If that's what you want, I can help you do that.

So you're willing to cut out some of the things that you are currently spending money on?

Yep.

It's kind of an uncomfortable topic in relationships. Talking about ultimatums and boundaries and consequences in many ways feels a little icky. It can even feel like parental childlike. You know, you give a child a timeout if they don't do something. We don't really want to think of our adult intimate relationship like that. And yet having standards is so important. So important. Having expectations. So important. I'm sure you have a bunch of expectations, but it seems like around money, maybe not.

I have expectations that I don't want to express because I don't know if he will want to live up to them.

If he doesn't, what then?

I'm afraid of what that means.

Brandon, do you have any financial expectations?

I don't think so.

I think he doesn't know enough about finances to have expectations.

All right, Ashley, I think it's a fair point you make. Brandon may not know enough about personal finance in order to have expectations. Like I don't know enough about cabinetry to have any expectations. Are you okay with that?

No, I'm not okay with him not knowing, but I don't want him to know that.

Why?

I will absorb that burden for him.

Why?

Because I feel like it's my job to do that.

Just like it was your job as a kid to tiptoe around your parents when money was tight and you didn't bring up certain things.

Yeah.

Just like when Brandon came to you and said, you know, you were sitting there and you said, I want you to consider getting rid of the truck. And instead of telling him, I run the finances in this household, this is what we need to do. Let's have a discussion. But this is. It needs to happen. You said, yeah, I could pick you up. And, you know, it's not forever, and you're making all these kind of concessions and promises about the future to try to get him on your side, and it never works, does it?

No.

What is the dynamic going on there?

Am not being assertive.

Why?

I want to protect how he feels. I don't want him to feel less than. I don't want him to feel unworthy. I don't want him to feel like he should know something that he doesn't know when it's. I mean, it's not his fault that he doesn't know it because he just doesn't know it. And I don't want him to feel bad for that. And so I just absorb that myself.

What are the consequences for your relationship?

I take on a lot of that burden myself, and I think I Hold a little bit of resentment because of that.

Mm. What else?

I wish we did it together. I wish we held that burden together. And there are things that I expect or I need that I don't voice my opinion on. There are things that he wants or wishes that I don't agree with, and I don't voice my opinion on them because I don't want him to feel unworthy. He has felt that for so long. I don't want to be the person to make him feel that way.

It's pretty deep stuff.

Let me check in with you. Brandon, what are you hearing as Ashley says that?

I know that she's a lot better at handling that stuff and believe that she has good intentions on getting us out of what we're in.

That's just a story. She's better at money because she's taking the time to learn a little bit about it, right?

Yeah.

But, Ashley, are you great at money? No. It's actually the worst of all worlds. You've given her all the work, but you micromanage and say, like, I want money for this snowmobile. I want money for this, and I'm not going to sell the truck. You've put her in an impossible situation. Do you see that?

Yeah.

And I also struggle with telling him no if he wants to buy something because. Because I know how long he went without. And so when he asks if he can buy something, it's hard for me to say no. And he does work really hard, and so I know he deserves things. You know, it's not that I. It's never that he doesn't deserve things.

What does that word mean, deserve?

It's been a common discussion that he feels that he doesn't get rewarded for his hard work. And so if he asks for something, I want to be able to reward him for that or be able to make him feel like he did a good job or he was enough or he did. He's providing for our family or whatever it is that that's gonna make him feel good.

Are you hearing what you're saying?

I hear it, and I know that I shouldn't, but it's really, really hard for me to say no to him.

How hard is it? Because if I'm looking at your amount of debt, you have $261,000 of debt. So it costs you $261,000 to not be able to say no. It's going to cost you probably $400,000 if you stopped spending today. So it cost you $400,000 to not be able to say no. Was it worth it?

I mean. No, it wasn't.

You know, you're actually not doing him any favors by taking all this burden on yourself. Because if you got hit by a bus tomorrow, if something happened to you tomorrow. He knows very little about anything financially. Do you know why?

Why? He knows very little.

Yeah, why?