“We’re 2 months from going bankrupt, but I pretend things are fine”

Courtney, you applied to talk to me, huh? Why?

Because I want to. I want to get past my own.

When you talk about money, what is.

Your tendency to try to make it sound better than it is? For sure.

Yeah.

I don't want them to know that it's this much. So we're just gonna go ahead and say it's gonna be about this much. I guess it's like a form of self soothing maybe.

Are you bad with money?

I don't think so, no. I've never had a problem paying for anything ever. Until lately. But even then, actually, I shouldn't even say that because we're still. We're not in debt. It's not like we're racking up credit card debt. We're still paying for everything, so.

Well, you have $100,000 plus of debt there is that.

That's true.

I've never quite met a couple like Courtney and Alex. She's 35, he's 37, and they live in a high cost of living area in Southern California, close to her parents for help with their young child. What's so fascinating here are the stories that Courtney tells herself about money. If something costs 20 bucks, she'll say that it costs 10. And that's just one of the many stories she tells herself. I think you'll also be surprised when you hear Alex's background. Now, all of these stories and emotions obscure the truth of their numbers, which is they're going broke within a few months. You can listen here on the podcast. You can also watch on YouTube, just search for Ramit Sethi, which will allow you to see Courtney and Alex and see their body language as we have this conversation. I'm Ramit Sethi, and this is I Will Teach youh to Be Rich.

I'll grab a coffee here, pick up something that, you know, just not as like number by number of things that I'm spending where Alex is really good about, like, oh, I will have my coffee every morning at home and this and that. Like, he keeps track a lot better. So I think, like, yeah, I'm just more of like willy nilly with my spending my stuff. I don't.

And does it ever result in a disagreement or is it fine?

It definitely results in disagreement. Especially since recently we've, like, more so combined our finances instead of allocating, like, I cover this and he covers that. It's just been like, cool, one bank account, here we go kind of thing. Yeah. So.

So when was the last time you fought about money?

Last month. Probably was the best month that we had with being on the same page because we both were like, don't spend any money.

Oh, so not spending any money is being on the same page?

Yeah.

What. What is it typically that you disagree.

About what to buy? And, like, groceries, I'd say would be a big one that we talk about a lot. That, like, he thinks that I could spend less in groceries. And I keep telling him that groceries are getting more expensive. Let's just say, like, in the kitchen looking at the receipt and that I, like, spent, you know, something, oh, I could spend $80 on this and you spent 180, you know, and how do.

You respond to that?

Groceries are getting more expensive. Also, I thought you wanted some bubbly water and wanted to get something nice for you, you know, like a little treat to have in the house. So, like, here's that and some ice cream. But I guess I didn't need to buy the ice cream or the bubbly water. But then that, to me, emotionally, just feels like you're not at least, like, if we're not going out to eat, then. And we can't even, like, get bubbly water to have in the house. And that's like, what are we doing with life? Like, if we can't have any nice little treats here and there for ourselves, then, like, why. What. What's the point of that?

You know, what are we working for? What are we earning money for?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I like to be able to have, like, in an ideal world, I like to be able to pay for all the things I need to pay for. You know, the. To dos and then still have enough leftover to. Yeah, get the. Get the ice cream or get some extra little things here and there that, like, aren't the bare necessities of just, like, protein, vegetable, fruit, grains. The end.

What kind of ice cream?

The one right now. I think it's Trader Joe's vanilla.

Okay.

Which is not the cheapest one, but I. If I'm going to get ice cream, I'm not getting the crappy stuff. I like the. I'm very picky about certain ice creams that I get, like Haagen Dazs Talenti or Trader Joe's.

And are you living in that ideal world right now?

No, not really.

How does it feel when you think about money today?

I. Scared. I'm scared right now.

Like, literally right now.

Yeah, a little bit. Like, I. My month is shaping up really nicely with work. By the end of the day tomorrow, I will have grossed more this month than I did last month. So I'M doing good. I just. I think I'm still just kind of freaked out where I'm like, oh my God, what if I get sick again and then it goes down and then it's the third month in a row that we're having to pull from savings and like, then we really can't afford the ice cream and really shouldn't be doing that. So it's like that guilt that you feel about spending, but then also you feel guilty for, like, not. And then we went Christmas shopping yesterday. I brought my daughter and there was something that she wanted and she was like crying, walking out the store. And I'm like, oh, God. Like, should I just. I don't like. No. Sorry. And so that kind of sucks.

Listening to you talk about it. It feels overwhelming.

Yeah. Yes.

And do you think that that's normal?

No. I didn't used to feel this way.

Notice the invisible scripts here. First, Courtney offhandedly mentions that not spending money means they're on the same page. This is a really common belief of people who grew up with frugal families. The idea that if we are not spending money, we're doing it right. And you can see the costs of hearing phrases like that, like, we can't afford it and you don't need that. You grow up believing that spending money is bad. And because you inevitably have to spend money to live a rich life, you end up living with existential guilt for the rest of your life. Sorry, was I talking about Catholicism or money? Second, I also hear how Courtney feels frantic. Do you pick up on that? She's spinning. She's creating worst case scenarios and then adding a layer of guilt on top of it. Peppered with lots of sorrys and other tip off words. Also, the things she mentioned about being an entrepreneur and having a really good month. All of these things are clues that I want you to file away.

I've been in business for 10 years now and have never heard of a profit and loss sheet. And I finally was informed of what that is and how to use it and what bookkeeping is and all that stuff. I'm like, so my mind is blown. So now I'm actually using profit and loss sheets and seeing, like, I would always just go off of like, oh, I grossed this much this month. And then I'd set aside my money for taxes and like, and it would just always work. It was one of those things that would just always work. I'd always be able to pay my bills, never have to pull from savings. I could buy whatever I wanted. It just. And I couldn't tell you how it just always kind of worked out.

What changed?

Noticing the profit and loss sheet and like, actually looking at the numbers. So between that and then we moved and our rent doubled. So my financial awareness and then our expenses going up by $2,000 a month.

2,000? That's a lot.

Yes.

So your rent went up by $2,000 a month?

Yep.

Wow.

So we moved. We were living in San Diego and moved back up to Orange county, where I'm from, to be near my family and get help from with babysitting and just family support and all that jazz. So we were looking at the things that we wanted in a house and. Or in a home, you know, apartment, whatever. And for Alex, it was at bare minimum a one car garage. And for me, it was a washer and dryer. Those requirements for an apartment were around 36 to 3800. And then for a house it was 4100. So we said, eff it, and went for the house as. You might as well.

Can you finish that sentence for it? You might as well. What?

Might as well just get the big house that has all the things that you want and spend, you know, two, $300 more a month and have a nice big house instead of being in an apartment that you don't have a yard, you have a one car garage. I mean, the price difference was, for us, we were just like, eh, what's a couple hundred dollars more a month? Like, just get the nice thing.

And has that turned out to be a good decision?

Yes and no. Like, yes, in terms of living comfortably. And like, when you talk about living your rich life, like, to me, being in this house fully, is that 100%? And so I tell myself that too, where I'm like, look, Court, just because you can't get the ice cream today or right now, doesn't mean that's not gonna change down the line. And look at what home you're in and how rad.

Wait, wait, hold on, hold on. You have ice cream in your freezer right now.

Okay. Yep. Getting called out.

I encounter this a lot. I'm talking about when people say one thing and then seconds later, they contradict themselves. This is way more common than you might think. You see, when most of us talk about ourselves, we live an idealized life. We try to be fit, we try to manage our money. We spend a little too much and we could probably cut back, but nothing outrageous. I've spoken to couples on this podcast who literally say, yeah, we could do better. But we're making it work as they are. Hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. And one of the things I try to do on this podcast is help people cut through their self created identities to look at the facts of the situation. Sometimes it works in their favor. Are you stressed out by $2,000 of credit card debt? In the grand scheme of things, that's not that much. We could fix it. On the other hand, are you totally relaxed about $200,000 of credit card debt? Because it's actually not that much. And your Neighbor Mary has 500k of debt. That's not good. You can hear a lot of playing with identity in this conversation. A lot of comparisons and rationalizing. For example, we were going to overspend, so we just said screw it. Let's hear how Alex feels.

I feel the same way I've felt for the last five years. Always in fear. And I feel like I'm behind the ball as far as with my, in comparison to my peers. And so, yeah, money's always been a big stressor. Four years or so we were doing really well. We were in a place that the rent was cheap, we didn't have a child. We were both working and making decent money and saving money. I paid off my car, my motorcycle, and I was debt free. And I had more money in the bank than I had ever had. It wasn't a lot, but it was more than I had ever had before.

You go on, what did that feel like at that moment?

It felt great. However, my fear with money never changed.

Ah, did you think that once you were debt free that your relationship with it would change magically?

No, because I, I, knowing how I, I function, especially with money, I was just super driven to accumulate wealth, so to speak, and have, you know, it was like I, I am debt free. Okay, cool. Now I need 20 grand in the bank. Okay, cool. Now I need 50 grand.

When did things start to change financially?

I would say over the last year.

What happened?

We had a kid. Last couple of years we had a kid. We were earning less. We moved before our, our rent was more, it was about 8 or $900 more than we were paying at our original place, our one bedroom. And you know, I feel like for the last year we've been, we've been chipping away at, we got married in October and that was, you know, that, that cost quite a bit of money.

How much? And.

The numbers aren't. I, I'm not sure, but I would say if I count the ring and I count the, the bachelorette Party and the bachelor party. I'm thinking probably out of our pocket. 15 grand.

Okay, Courtney, does that sound about right to you?

I guess. I honestly am not really sure. I'd say around. I'd guess more around 10, but he's probably closer. Like, I. It's probably 15.

Is that a common dynamic? Is that a common dynamic where Alex, you know the numbers more than Courtney?

Yeah. And I tend to undershoot it when I.

Why do you undershoot it?

I think emotional. Emotional part of it, just to not stress myself as much. Like, When I hear 15 grand, I'm like, oh. But when I hear 10, I'm like, okay. All right.

Another common tactic. People who know they're making a mistake will use a variety of techniques to not feel bad. Some will simply ignore it. Others will compare themselves to someone worse off.

Sure, it was $10,000, but at least.

It wasn't $30,000 like Jack. That is so irresponsible. And some will undershoot the number. They're basically lying to themselves. And because money is fluid, you know, you can make a lot one month, and you can actually lose money due to inflation and phantom costs, and there's bookings and revenue. If you have a business, you can kind of get away with it for a long time. Personally, I find Courtney fascinating. I don't get the chance to talk to someone who openly misrepresents numbers and is candid about it that often.

So Alex says it was 15. Courtney, does that number sound right to you?

Ugh. Yeah, I guess. Yeah.

And what did you hear in yourself when you answered that question just now?

Not happy about it? Kind of. Yeah.

I mean, it's your wedding.

It's your ring.

It's your bachelorette party.

You sound excited about it.

Yeah, so. And I notice you're tearing up.

Sorry.

That's okay. Money is emotional. Tell me a little bit about why.

Well, I don't want to feel bad about our wedding, about spending that money.

Do you?

You know, I mean, a little bit. Yeah. Now, like, today? Yeah, I. Two months ago? No, when it happened, I didn't. But after having had the two months of pulling from savings. Yeah. It's like, oh, it would be nice to have that.

And what does it make you feel when you think about that now?

You know, kind of sad.

Sad because you don't have the money or sad for another reason?

Oh, sad that I don't have, like, the. That emotional component towards, like, that. I feel sad about our wedding. It's. It's a bummer that I Like, look at it.

I'm like.

Like, I don't want to feel that way about it, because when I think about it, I don't. Like, when I don't think about the money, I don't feel bad at all. You know, I'm stoked about it. And I think that's part of the reason, too. I. In my head, I'm like, no, it was less or don't. Don't include those things. You know, don't include the. The parties and stuff. You know, the bachelor party in the ring and all that. Like, the wedding itself was only this much.

But who are you fooling when you say it that way?

Me.

So here you are today. You came on, you want to get some help. It sounds like a few big things happened in the last year. You had a child, your rent went up by $2,000, and, Courtney, you started becoming a little bit more financially aware through a P and L, et cetera. Would that be accurate?

Yes.

Okay, and how would you rank your. Your financial situation right now? Would you say it's very good, average, bad? How would you describe it, Courtney?

Optimistic?

Have you ever said that your money situation was bad?

Well, I don't know. I don't think. Maybe. Maybe. Yeah. Otherwise, like, straight reality, like, money situation in this second, Eh, moderate to poor.

Wait a minute. You went from optimistic to poor in, like, 10 seconds. Which one is it?

Well, okay. I mean, I guess it's a matter of, like, reality and mindset. I don't. You know, like, in reality, we had to just pull from savings to pay for stuff. So to me, that's poor. But I'm trying to just be like, nope, okay, don't get emotionally hung up on all of that. Like, trudge ahead. Don't let this, like, let you stumble and take you down a spiral of negativity.

You know what's interesting? I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I don't think that your situation should result in a spiral of negativity.

I'm hearing this all or nothing approach to money a lot. Either Courtney is optimistic or poor. She feels happy or sad about money. And you've heard me say many times that money is emotional. I even said it to Courtney a few minutes ago. But sometimes we let our emotions overwhelm us. Emotions can give us clues, but they can also lead us astray. And, yeah, I talk about how in a rich life, you have to work on improving your money psychology and your emotional relationship with it, but you also have to work on improving the basic nuts and bolts of personal finance. That means that to become confident with money you have to become more competent.

When I communicate about money, it is, I usually comes from a point of area of like frustration and fear. So I give me an example. I can be short and.

Rude.

Now that our, our finances are combined, at the end of the month she would transfer her earnings after expenses and tax into our account so then we can pay bills. And it seems like when I ask how much, how much are you going to be able to transfer? Then she'll say one thing and it'll be significantly less. Or I oh no, here's the best example was when we were combining stuff and I was like, let's pay off all of, all of our credit cards. And so we have a great baseline of how much money we actually have, how much liquid we actually have. How much do you owe on your credit cards? And you know, her number was thousands of dollars less than what we actually owed on those credit cards. And so I was like, I don't understand how somebody couldn't just immediately have that number. Like I know exactly how much is in all of our accounts and how much money we owe on credit cards and how much money we owe and have. And so I, I guess when I communicate with her after stuff like that, I can be very short and frustrated and maybe at times belittling.

I think, why not just say I don't know.

Oh, because I would just piss him off to high hell. You don't know. How do you not know? That's ridiculous.

How do you not know?

Is that true, Alex?

Yes.

It's very interesting when you see a dynamic and I love how honest the two of you are, you see that oftentimes dynamics are co created. It's not simply one person. One person is reacting to very real pressures from another. I'm not using this to excuse anybody, but simply to describe what's very obviously going on. So you did not want to say I don't know because that would have resulted in all that. What did you do instead?

I just, I guessed and I was wrong. Yeah, yeah.

And, and when you guess or when you talk about money, what is your.

Tendency to try to make it sound better than it is? For sure. Yeah, yeah. And I think too, like, I'm sure when I said that number it was probably something that, like, in my heart I knew it was more than that. But I'm like, I don't want him to know that it's this much. So we're just going to go ahead and say it's. Maybe about this much. I guess it's like a form of self soothing, maybe. It makes me think of that meme with the dog sipping coffee in the fire. Yeah, this is fine. Everything's fine. I'm fine.

Totally. How come you're so open admitting that to me?

I mean, he knows. He's. He's called me out. I've admitted it.

You applied to talk to me, huh? Why?

Because I want to. I want to get past my own bullshit. Okay.

I like that. I appreciate the candor. Are you bad with money?

I don't think so, no. I've never had a problem paying for anything, ever. Until lately. But even then. Actually, I shouldn't even say that because we're still. We're not in debt. It's not like we're racking up credit card debt. We're still paying for everything, so.

Well, you have a hundred thousand dollars plus of debt there.

Is that. That's true.

It's fascinating to hear Courtney admit this. I have never had a guest on this podcast who downplays their financial problems quite like Courtney. But at a certain point, I understand what's going on and I start to lose my fascination with it. Yeah, it's interesting and amusing to hear Courtney use these phrases like he calls me out on my bullshit. But her admitting her tendencies is in itself a strategy to avoid making real changes. When people talk about money, you have to remember that they use all kinds of conscious and un. Unconscious strategies to resist changing. And Courtney, in this conversation, is going almost over the top to admit that she's often a hypocrite about money. Okay, that's fascinating, but I think it's become this quirky thing that's actually an unconscious strategy, and it's one that's not really helping her.

Alex, why do you think that money is registering with Courtney now?

Because I explained to her that at this point, with our expenses and our income, anything. When you. When you look at that pair of pants or you look at that cup of coffee, is that worth pulling out of savings for?

I don't think that's why.

Look at her face.

She's shaking her head no. Okay. Alex has no ability to understand why this is happening right now. That's okay. Actually, most couples don't understand why they are doing the things they're doing. Alex, are you surprised that your answer, which sounded really logical and cool, is not actually the right answer?

No.

You're not surprised? Why not?

Because I feel like my. My understanding the way my brain works is quite a bit different than the way Courtney's does.

How does yours work?

I feel like, well, it doesn't work great, but when it. For me, it works well. As far as when I'm. I can make things very cut and dry and compartmentalized. Okay. We come from different backgrounds and.

I've.

Always stressed about money, so I heard money not being something that she thinks about as often as I do is. Is understandable. So I think. I think she's used to things just kind of working out, you know, and I'm always had to kind of make things work out. I ran away from home when I was 16 and started working and dropped out of high school, started working and was hanging around with. With some. Some kids that were up to no good and they're. And I, you know, I. I also was up to no good and ended up in some trouble and in the juvenile detention system and group homes. And then on my 18th birthday, I was kicked out with nowhere to go. And I went into. I moved into a. For lack of a better terms, a tweaker pad.

And.

And you know, I was living with a bunch of criminals and we were doing a bunch of dumb stuff and drugs and I, you know, bounced around a lot. I ended up moving. You know, I made a friend who invited me. His parents invited me into their home in a different city. So I moved down there with them and. But continued to struggle with drugs and alcohol. And 10 years ago I got sober. And yeah, I mean, I. There was periods of homelessness, there was periods of, you know, long periods of unemployment and, you know, just kind of couch surfing and depending on other people to support me. You know, lots of, Lots of money. Money issues and, you know, and it. Honestly, it wasn't as much of a stress then as it is now. I don't know if because the drugs helped with that or it's just. Because I was just so used to not having any money and owing people money that it was just. I didn't know anything else. And I was depressed and suicidal for a long time. And I had been in rehabs and sober living before. And you know, there was a guy that was in 2010, I was in a sober living house and my roommate had been there for years, much more time than anybody else. And I was like, what are you still doing here? He's like, I don't trust myself out there. Without the structure of this, I think I'll be back in prison. And I was like, fuck that.

And.

But after about you know, 18 months, that seemed like a way better situation than what I had going on. So I went to. I went and sought help thinking that that was going to be the rest of my life was just being locked up and living in a structured environment. Thankfully, that. That wasn't the case at all. I have more freedom than I've ever had.

That's a pretty incredible journey you've been on, and I don't often get the chance to talk to somebody who's gone through that journey. So I really appreciate you sharing it and pleasure to. To put. Try to put myself inside your shoes. And at the time where you said, wow, I would rather be in a structured environment instead of being out and having my own freedom. And that is a more attractive outcome to me. It's hard for me to put myself in those shoes. I can't imagine what that must have been like. And now for you to be here where you are together with Courtney and talking about money and talking about a pretty large amount of money now, that journey is absolutely incredible. So regardless of where we go, I just want to say, wow, absolutely amazing. And congratulations on being sober. And it helps me understand where you're coming from when you share that with me. So thank you.

Thank you.

How did you grow up with money?

Oh, it was never an issue. We. And I, like, I actually found this to be interesting because as I have been working with myself and my business coach more on this kind of stuff and realizing that, like, I think actually, no, it was one of your podcasts that there was another wife that was doing something and kind of similar, and she was like, I don't know. It just always works out. It always works out. And I'm like, yeah, it always works out. Like, that resonated with me so much. And then within the week, I'm talking with my mom about finances and she goes, well, I don't know, it just always works out. And I'm like, oh, interesting. And because it has. It just has always worked out.

And she.

I always remember her saying, I don't know how it does. It just always does. Don't ask me how. It just always does. And they have questions.

What do you remember hearing from them about money growing up?

I guess just that we never really, like, worried about it. It wasn't. It. I don't know, we didn't. It wasn't like a whole lot of topics on. It was mostly just like. I think the one thing I can remember is when I was 18, my mom told me to take out, get a credit card. She like, kind of. I shouldn't say Forced, but highly encouraged to get a credit card. I think I had like a $500 limit on it. And she taught me how the interest worked and how the minimum payment on the card is not going to save you if the interest is higher. And so like, I've always understood that and I've been.

That's very savvy of her.

Yeah. Credit cards I've been great on. And I've actually manipulated the system with credit cards quite well, getting little points and borrowing their money and blah, blah, blah, all that kind of stuff. So I've been, I've always been good with the credit card stuff. But it's the student loan thing that for whatever reason it did not like, I don't know, I think it's one of those things that just. You take out a student loan to go to school.

So how much did you take out?

I took out 80,000. So that's how much interest has accrued at this point. And I've paid off.

You went from 80,000, you paid off 10 and it's currently 107,000.

Yes. Okay.

What does it feel like to hear those numbers?

Oh, I hate it. It pisses me off. And that's why I just put it. I put it in a different compartment. Cause I feel like I can't even emotionally, like, deal. Like, I talk to colleagues about it and we all have this running joke that we like, we're going to die. Not that we're going to die, but we all have the running joke of like, yeah, I mean, there's that, but we just kind of put that over there. Because if I think about it, then I'm not okay. Like the amount of emotional stress I had when I graduated and looked at that and realized that I accrued $10,000 in interest just while in school. Still, I, like wanted to puke it.

So it's common. People who have relatively high amounts of student loan debt, they do exactly what you do. They compartmentalize it. And then they start making jokes going, well, I'm probably going to die with that amount of debt, but what can you do? It's. It's very predictable.

Yeah.

And yet have you ever actually calculated how long it would take you to pay that debt off?

No.

What's the interest rate on this debt.

On my student loan? Yeah, it's like 6.8 on average.

Okay. What do you think about that number?

Robbery? Highway robbery.

You think it's high? All right, I agree. And you have something about if you have income based repayment, explain that to me.

So If I make $0 or like a, you know, they have some wacky calculation I have no clue how to figure out. But based off of my earnings from the previous year, they will calculate how much my minimum payment is. Okay, so that's why like you go in, well, this is what I was taught, is that when you graduate, that's the best one to go into because initially you won't be earning a lot of money as a business owner and then one. So it's, it basically takes the pressure off of having a minimum payment. Whereas like going to get into a 10 year repayment plan on, you know, $100,000, I'm not going to be able to afford that. And then you're just in panic mode from day one. So that's why I was guided into that.

Okay, and what's your process in terms of knowing when your debt will be paid off?

I don't have one.

People do this really weird compartmentalization with money. If I ask them about their investments, they won't include their 401k in their head. They literally don't count a 401k as investments. On the other hand, if I ask them about their debt, people who have large student loans, I'm talking six figure loans, they often will not count it. It's like we pick and choose, partly to protect ourselves, but partly because we don't really understand how money works. Anyone who did would understand that a 401 is an investment. Whether it's a retirement account or non retirement account, it's an investment. And this is where it becomes personally frustrating to me. That's one of the reasons I started my entire business, because money affects us in so many ways. But few of us actually decide to get proactive about taking control. I mean, how many people have listened to this podcast for over a year? Okay, and yet listening one thing, but shifting to proactively taking control is a totally different thing. If you're ready to take control of your money, get my book you can get at the library. You can get it at any bookstore. If you want more help and you want direct answers from me, join my money coaching program@iwt.com moneycoaching whatever decision you make, know that you can change your life in less than six months.

Let's look at some of your numbers. Let's go through it. So who put together this conscious spending plan? I love hearing this.

Okay, so I listened to your podcast on the one where you're like, you guys need to do this together. So I was like, okay, cool, we're doing this together. And then I tell Alex. I'm like, hey, you need to come read this email. And then I'm in a different room hanging out with my sister, and he goes, okay, it's done.

Why'd you do that, Alex?

To avoid. I was being helpful.

What do you think the effects are, Alex, of you doing the conscious spending plan for Courtney?

Well, the effects for me is it gets done quickly.

Okay, that's true. That's true. And would you consider that a good thing?

Yes, I would consider that a good thing.

Okay. And are there any other effects for you?

We avoid any sort of conflict. Right. While putting it together.

Okay, fine. So from your perspective, seems very reasonable. Let me do this. It gets done faster, and we don't fight about it. Okay. What about the effects for the two of you?

We. You made a good point. We don't get to have a bonding moment with each other. And also, you know, this is. We're. We're a team in this. In this venture, and. And it's hard for us to be on the same page.