"We’re in $400,000 of debt, but we can’t say no to our kids”

I lived in a very conflicting house. Money didn't grow on trees and also can't take it to the grave with you. So if you have it, you may as well spend it. I just thought I was going to be smarter than my mom, that I was going to do it better than her, that I had, you know, read the book or listened to the cd and that it was going to be different.

I'm a frivolous spender. I would just buy stuff. I'll break my back to buy my kids whatever they need because what does.

It mean to you?

Everything. It means that I'm providing for them. It means that I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna hit rock bottom. Like, I'm not gonna fail. I'm gonna do whatever I have to do. Like, how could you not grind so hard to get what you can for your kids? It's just like. It's just so annoying that we even allowed ourselves to get into this position.

Meet Kenna and Ryan. Kenna's 36. Ryan is 45.

They have two young daughters and recently bought a house in the Denver area. Now they have an interesting money dynamic that recently flipped. Ryan used to work long hours while Kenna stayed home with the kids. Now, after getting her degree, Kenna is working, making about the same wage, and Ryan stays home. The problem is their numbers don't add up, and they have some serious money beliefs that are left over from their childhood. Today's episode is about money stories, and you're going to hear exactly what I mean.

I'd like to encourage you to Watch.

This on YouTube where you can see the full episode, including their facial expressions and their reactions to some of my questions. It's quite illuminating. I'm Ramit Sethi, and this is I Will Teach youh to Be Rich.

Who wants to go first and tell me the way that you view money in a sentence or two.

It's just a way for me to have fun while I'm living my life.

And I feel like I will never have enough for anything.

They seem kind of opposite, don't they?

Oh, yeah.

When did you discover that you had different views of money?

Very early on. Very early on. Like I said. Well, you were managing the finances prior to us even getting engaged, you know, because I'm a sloppy spender.

And what was the last time the two of you had a specific disagreement about money? Can you remember that?

I mean, all the time. Like, Christmas time. She wants to have a budget, like $200 hard for each child. And I'm like, What if I see something that I want to get them and we've already spent the $200, like I should be able to go get that for them if I want, you know, like I'm more. I'm. I'm a spender. I'm a frivolous spender.

What does frivolous mean?

I would just buy stuff, like, just to buy it, you know, like whatever, disc golf stuff. I already have everything I need for disc golf, like everything you could ever want. And I'll buy other stuff and then it just sits around and I don't use it, but I have it, you know?

Okay. And like with that Christmas example, 200 bucks per child. What ended up happening?

We went over the budget.

Brian always wins. I have a hard time telling him no. And because he did work so hard for so long that I didn't feel that it was okay for me to say, you're working 60 plus hours a week, but no, you can't spend 50 doll dollars on disc golf or $50 on Christmas.

What was the budget for Christmas this year?

Well, I would say this last year, 200 per kid. And then Ryan and I didn't really get anything for each other just because we did overspend on the children.

Okay. And so it was 200 bucks per kid. How many kids?

We have two kids.

Okay. And so 400 bucks was the budget. How much did you end up spending?

I would say close to 600.

Okay, okay.

But that was, keep in mind, like we had budgets for ourselves as well, you know, for me for her and for her for I. And we dipped into that and took away from our budget to make sure to make that extra for the kids.

How old are the kids?

7 and 4.

He used to work. I was a stay at home mom for six years. I've managed the finances ever since. We've combined finances when we got married and I.

Prior to getting married?

Yeah, even prior to getting married.

I've been out of the loop on the finances for a long time. I was just working, just making the money and kind of was handling everything.

Let's walk through that step by step. So you were both earning incomes back then early on in your marriage. And how long were you married before you had your first three years.

Three years.

Okay. And how much were you both making collectively in those first three years?

70,000 maybe.

All right, so you're making 70k. Seems like you could afford to go out and eat out and have fun. Fair enough.

Yeah.

Okay, so you got pregnant. When did you have a conversation? If at all that, ooh, we might need to change the way that we manage our money.

I don't feel like we did.

Yeah, I don't. I don't feel like we did either. I feel like she just took the reins. It didn't need to be said. Like, we had planned for one of us to stay home with a child, so we knew that was obviously going to chop one of our incomes right off the top. Okay. So we went with who was making more money at the time, and that was me. You know, simple. And she stayed home.

And that decision about one was going to stay home. Was that a financial decision or another.

Reason we didn't have children for other people to raise them?

Notice how quickly that response rolled off Ryan's tongue? Almost like he said it a million times before. File that clue away.

All right, so you're at home at this point, Kenna, with your firstborn, and you're also managing the money. And when did you start to realize that you needed to tighten things up immediately?

So at the time, we lived in a different city, much lower cost of living, moved to a higher cost of living area when our daughter was almost one. And once we moved here, it was. It was like we were going paycheck to paycheck. Our house payment almost doubled. So, yeah, it was pretty about a year in.

Did you own or rent?

So when we lived in the low cost of living area, we were renting and then bought when we moved to high cost of living.

Okay, got it. And what was the reasoning behind the buying?

Because a mortgage was cheaper than rent.

Really?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

What.

What's the general vicinity of where you're living?

Denver.

Denver. Okay. Got it. All right.

And still to this day, the cost. I mean, the cost of our mortgage is much cheaper than what we would rent our house for.

Really break it down for me, because I already have. Your mortgage here is $2,073 a month. What would you rent it for?

25, 26, 27.

Okay. Okay. All right. Now, when I factor in utilities, it's 2073 plus $373.

Yeah.

So that's like 2,400 right there.

Yeah.

Do you see what just happened there? They made the biggest financial decision of their lives, and they doubled their expenses. Why? Because they believed it would be cheaper to buy rather than to rent. But in 10 seconds, I just ran some basic numbers with them. It happened so quickly, I don't even think they realized it. So let's just pause and go through those numbers again. For them to rent it would cost about 2,500 bucks. Their mortgage is $2,073. So they still believe they're saving money even though they doubled their previous housing expenses. This is basically how most people think. They look at the sticker price and they go, well, it's. It would cost more to rent, therefore, we are saving money. But once we factor in the utilities that they pay every month, their total housing costs, or TCO, total cost of ownership is $2,400. That's just $100 less than renting. Again, if you have a simple view of money, you go, see, it's cheaper to own. But let's go deeper. What about all the phantom costs, including tax and interest on their loan? What about maintenance, including random light bulbs and a roof repair nine years now? And even the value of their labor? If you factor in all those things, it is more expensive for them to own than to rent. But they don't know that. You have to remember this phrase. Rent is the maximum you will pay, and your mortgage is the minimum you will pay.

Okay.

The real clue here, besides even the housing, is that Kenna and Ryan live their lives by telling themselves simple stories. Sometimes those stories might be true. Other times they are obviously false. But without actually digging deeper into these simple stories, they will be unequipped to understand a very complex world.

So you got this place in Denver, you bought it, and you realize that your housing costs and everything else went up. So, Kenna, there you are at home with the baby, managing the money, the.

Weeks that we were sure we would get behind, because we don't. We don't. We didn't. At that time. We didn't have very much savings at all. And then on the weeks that we would get ahead, I. We would just spend all the money that we were ahead instead of saving it.

Okay, got it. And what would you tell yourselves at the time? What was the story you told yourselves?

That you can't take it to the grave with you. You may as well just spend.

Who said that? You or you.

Right.

That's. That's like the. The what I heard growing up.

What a shock.

Yeah. I lived in a very conflicting house. Money didn't grow on trees. And also, you can't take it to the grave with you, so if you have it, you may as well spend it.

Lower middle class.

Yeah, I wouldn't even say middle. I would just say lower class.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell me about it. Was it two parents or one parent?

So two parents up until I was 12. My dad passed when I was 12. But my mom was a stay at home mom that whole time. And my dad worked construction.

He worked construction. Okay. And so he worked.

What do you remember about the rituals.

Of money in your household?

So there. I never remember any positive discussions about money. There were lots of fights about money. And I remember anytime I would ask for anything, it always seemed like they said no. That's. I started working when I was 14 so that nobody could tell me no.

Like, how dare you even ask? That's not the type of people we are, pretty much. What else do you remember about the rituals of money growing up?

So I remember lots of past due notices getting sent to our house. I remember cars being repossessed, borrowing, you know, having to call family and friends to borrow money. My mom asking me to borrow money like, once I started working.

Wow. Okay. And how do you feel about money between, let's say, being a young child and 16, 18 years old? How were you feeling about it?

So when I was really young, it was. It wasn't fair. I was jealous of my friends who got to go do things, who got, you know, new pairs of sneakers. Like in the middle of the school year, there was a lot of jealous. A lot of jealousy. And then once I was able to work for myself, I wanted more money. You know, I. I wanted to just work as much as I could because I wanted more money and also because I just didn't want to be at home. Yeah.

And you mentioned that your dad passed away when you were young.

Yeah.

What. What effect did that have on your relationship with money?

You know, I. I don't. I don't really know because my mom kind of went into, like, hiding, I guess I had to. I have a younger brother and sister, and so I kind of had to step up and, like, do laundry and feed them dinner and. You sure that they were up and ready for school? My mom didn't start working immediately after. I don't know. I don't think it changed it. I definitely didn't have any more positive feelings about money after he passed.

But how did your family make do once your dad, who was the primary earner, passed away?

So she collected his Social Security.

And when she ended up going back to work, what were her feelings about having to go work?

I don't think she was happy.

You remember her saying anything?

No, not at the top of my head. She didn't start working again until after I was already out of the house.

Did your parents ever talk to you about investing?

No.

Saving?

Nope. Mm.

Choosing a partner, like the role of Finances in your relationships? Nope.

Okay.

Okay.

My mom doesn't even have a. A checking account. She doesn't have a checking account or a savings account. She cashes all of her checks at King Supers.

Still.

Still.

Wow.

Have you told her that you listen to this show?

Oh, so. Well, unfortunately, we haven't spoken for, like, about two years, but I got it.

Okay. Got it, got it.

Yeah.

Okay. Wow. All right. So did you know that Ryan.

Yes.

Maybe not before, like, we. We got really into the thick of things.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's not first date conversation, you know.

Oh, no.

Hey, the cars got repoed. Anyway, what. What do you want to have for a drink?

Like, oh, by the way, can we keep going to your house, please?

You can only order well drinks. That's how I.

Well, Kenna, it's really interesting. What you said something really subtle, you know, that you felt jealous of your friends who got shoes in the middle of the year.

That is very subtle.

That. The idea that if you're ever gonna get new shoes, which, by the way, happens maybe once every four years when you absolutely know it's only gonna be at the beginning of the year, and you better make sure those shoes stay.

Yep.

That's.

That's life for a lot of people. And if you grew up where your mom or dad was, like, all right, your shoes look like they got a little thing on them. Let's go get something new. Doesn't matter what day it is. I don't matter what month it is. You're just like, what does that mean? Yep. So I appreciate you sharing that.

Yeah.

Ryan, think back to when you were a kid. What. What do you remember about money growing up as a kid?

Like, now that I'm older and looking back, I have a different view on it, but it was definitely acting like we have money and, you know, like, maybe the nice house, but, you know, not able to go do things. So it was, like, a lot of, like, fakeness in association with money for me. Like, watching my mom and her husband. Go ahead.

Your parents were divorced early on?

Oh, yeah. I never knew my dad. He was just not in the picture until I was already, what, 36 years old.

Okay.

And so it was just my mom, single mom, and then she got remarried when I was 5 and had my brother and sister. And then he was the primary money maker. She was stay at home mom. And like I said, they always acted like they never talked about money. I never heard them talk about money. They never talked to us about money. I never. If they struggled, I never knew It. But now looking back, it was like a lot of false fronts. Like what? You know, like. Like the nicer car and the nicer corner lot house that they were overpaying on rent for so that they could look like they had money, you know, because that was a big deal for my mom to. She's like, she wants to be rich. She hasn't wealthy, money wise. She wants to have lots of money. The way she carried herself, though, like, always, like, above, like, always pretending like, you know, like, it's no problem. I could. I could buy the Rolex, you know, or this, you know, or this car is paid for or whatever the case may be. But, like, the real version is what we're feeling living in the house with her and not having food in our refrigerator and, you know, not having cable TV because we couldn't afford the bill. And then, you know, it's just there. Like I said, there was a lot of a fakeness associated. Like, just play pretend. Like, I only saw the struggle once. They got divorced and we had to move back in with my grandmother.

Oh, when did that happen? What age were you?

Oh, man, My sister was. I was probably 12.

Okay, so at 12, they get divorced and you have to move in with your grandmother, your mom's mother. And how did money start to play a role in your life then?

Well, I saw my mom not making money and just kind of kicking back. And, you know, I. I quickly realized my grandma was paying for all of our groceries, paying for our school clothes, buying us our Christmas presents, and my mom was just kind of kicking back, and I was just kind of like. Like, I can't not have money. Like, I can't be a bum like that, like, and just live off somebody else and let them just pay for everything and not even feel remotely guilty. So at a young age, I was. I had a paper route. You know, I wanted a pair of Air Jordans. My mom told me, no, I got a paper route. I bought myself Air Jordans.

What'd you make on that paper route?

Oh, my goodness. Maybe like 13 bucks every two weeks.

Okay. All right. What were you, like, 12, 13 years old?

Yeah. Yeah. Right away, right?

That's a lot of money. I mean, it was all right.

It was all right to think back, to think back on it. It's just kind of crazy.

Yeah. How come?

I mean, 12 years old and you're like, I'm gonna go get this for myself. Like, you won't tell me, you know? Yeah, but then that. I feel like that, like, encouraged a bunch of Bad habits. Because I was like, I'm gonna get this money and I'm gonna spend it on whatever I want to spend it on. And if I don't have money on Thursday and I have to wait till Friday to get paid, then that's just what it is, you know? And that kind of built up some bad habits.

So when you. When you think about going back to that 12 and 13 year old and I see you getting emotional, what is it that you're feeling, thinking about your young self?

Just like, what a. How can my mom, like, fail me like that? Like, how could you not grind so hard to get what you can for your kids? Like, and then you're cool just kicking back and watching your kid go out there and do that, you know, like, I'll. I'll break my back to buy my kids whatever they need because what does.

It mean to you?

Everything. It means that I'm providing for them. It means that I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna hit rock bottom. Like, I'm not gonna fail. I'm gonna do whatever I have to do, you know? And that stems from me not having. And me having to do for myself. And I want my kids to learn the value of doing stuff for themselves and working hard and earning things, but I'm not gonna. I'm gonna tell them to be a kid. They don't have to work right now. When you're 12 years old, your dad's got you. Okay, yeah, sorry.

No need to apologize at all.

I don't. I haven't talked to my mom in probably six years just because of all of the traumas that I've had growing up and that I've been working through lately.

When do you ever get to hear someone being so honest about their upbringing? You start listening to Kenna and Ryan, and I think it's easy to be annoyed at first.

Oh, boo hoo.

You overspent. Just stop it. But as you listen to their background, if you're really honest, I think you admit that you have no idea how you would react if you grew up that way. For example, Ryan grew up in a divorced household, and the lack of money played a huge role in his upbringing. And now he's estranged from his mom. I may not agree with his spending habits, but I can totally understand how he got here and notice the simplicity of the story he's created for himself. He literally tells himself, my mom didn't grind. I'm going to grind for my kids because if I give them everything, it means I love them. On the surface, it's a logically coherent story, but if you dig into even one layer, it all starts to fall apart.

What do you think you brought from your childhood into this relationship as it relates to money?

So I feel like I definitely brought motivation to earn money and to not ever be in a position where our lights are getting shut off or our cars are getting repossessed. And also an unrealistic, an unrealistic expectation that everything was just going to be easy.

Because it wasn't easy for you growing up.

It wasn't. And I guess I thought because we were both, I mean, when we were both working at one point, so that that was. It seemed like our finances were very easy then. I guess I just thought I was going to be smarter than my mom, that I was going to do it better than her, that I had, you know, read the book or listen to the cd and that it was going to be different.

Okay, is it different for you right now?

It is because we've never gotten a shut off notice or our cars repossessed and our, you know, we have, we carry car insurance and the things that, you know, our license plates are up to date and all of those things that you do to be legal. But I don't think that the, the mindset has changed much. I thought that I would have like a half a million dollars in retirement. Um, I thought that we would have, you know, be in our forever home, that it would be easy for one of us to, to not work. You know, right now one of us doesn't work, but Ryan still has to work part time. You know, it's not, it's not the luxury of just being able to stay home and just be a full time stay at home dad.

Okay, so you thought you would have more money, more stability, what else?

More vacations, the ability to, you know, put our kids in after school programs or dance or, you know, and not have to be quite so selective about what extracurricular activities they do. You know, if we need a new dresser, being able to just go buy it instead of having to like, save for a month to go buy something for, you know, a couple hundred dollars or being able to just not have to look at my bank account every single day.

Yeah, okay.

Amen to that.

Ryan, what'd you bring from your upbringing?

Horrible spending habits, huh?

And that, that started around age 12, 13 for you?

Yeah. Yeah. Like, I didn't really, like, lack of caring towards money. Like, I care, I care about money to have stuff, but I don't care enough about Money to or when I was Young, in my 20s and 30s, I didn't care enough about money to be wanting to aggressively put into a 401k. Like I cared more about material things and you know, I didn't care if I had to put something on a credit card because I didn't have all the cash for it.

Look, I know I'm supposed to be uplifting and stuff, but like most kids are stupid when it comes to money. They don't know anything. Okay. If some 18 year old comes to me and they're feeling all down because they spend all their money on whatever it is 18 year olds spend money on in app purchases or whatever, mind field, whatever that don't write me. I don't want anyone writing me about these stupid kids games that I don't know. I don't have an 18 year old. I don't know anything about 18 year olds anymore. But I don't blame them. Now I will say you are 45.

Yeah.

Maybe it's time for us to make a change. What do you say?

We've come a long way. We've been together what, 13 years?

Yeah.

And so I think we're both finally just like done fighting and want to like create a, create a solid plan that we can just move forward with.

I was just kind of like, I'm over here working and I'll shut up and go work 60, 70 hours a week and do what I have to do and you just take care of everything. Let me know if I could spend some money, you know, I'd be like, I want to go out with my boys. I need $100.

This is a classic way of thinking for people who grew up without money. The idea is I'm just gonna grind and if we're struggling, I'll just grind harder. I will figure it out. The idea of long term planning is conceptualized totally differently if you grew up middle class or wealthy. As people who grew up poor try to replicate that idea of grinding, they often discover its limitations. Here's an excerpt from a book I love called the Power of the Past by Jesse Stribe. She writes, in general, those who were born into professional white collar families had sensibilities that I call managerial. They preferred to plan, deliberate, mull over and organize their resources, their children and their daily lives. Their partners with blue collar roots typically had different sensibilities. Those that I call laissez faire. They preferred to feel free from self constraint rather than wanting to analyze, plan, or meticulously organize their lives. They preferred to go with the flow and live in the moment. These differences played out across multiple domains in their lives. Now, this book has a lot of complex ideas. Some you may agree with, some you may disagree with. But you will see these differences coming up time and time again across different couples that I speak to.

Now that our roles are reversed and I'm the stay at home mom, it. I feel like I need to take some of that burden off of her. You know, I can't just be like, make, make the dinner menu, budget for the groceries, make sure all of our credit cards are paid on time. You know, I need. I felt like she didn't ask me to do that when I was working and bringing in all the money, so I shouldn't be asking her to do that while she's working and bringing in all the money. Why not now? I mean, like, we've done enough damage already. We've racked up a credit card, sold a condo, used the proceeds to pay that off, only to rack up another credit card over frivolous spending. So, like, that aspect needs to go and there's some changes that need to be made. So I think it's only fair.

So how does money come up in your relationship? Who talks about it?

Hannah brings it up to me as often as she can, as often as she thinks she can get away with before I get a little bit fed up.

Money has always been a topic that I want to talk about and that I want to be, you know, working on as a team, and I don't bring it up in the right way. I'm not inspiring Ryan to want to help because I always focus on the negatives, like how we're short or these are all of our debt payments.

How often do you bring it up?

Probably at least four times a week. So I've been reading your book. I'm reading it the second time.

Hallelujah.

Yes. We are finally trying to automate our money. So Ryan is doing some side work. And so we have finally committed to his side work. Money going into his personal bank account and that he is going to. That all of the credit card bills are going to automatically be paid out of his bank account.

Okay.

And that I am going to, you know, the. My paycheck, a portion of my paycheck is going to go into a checking account that we will pay our mortgage out of. A portion of that paycheck is going into a high yield savings account, which we just opened three weeks ago. And then the rest of it, like, I'll pay our utilities with okay, but. So this is the most like automation we've ever had. Usually all the checks just went into our joint account and we paid the money, used it for fun money. You know, we paid everything.

I, I just got one question for you. How fucking good does that automation feel?

I was telling Ryan. It, it, it's awesome. It finally feels like. Well, and because we're doing it together, I feel like because the credit cards are finally coming out of his account, he has, he's, he's invested. He has to like now he knows when the credit card bills are due. And before he never.

I couldn't, I couldn't tell you.

Yeah, he didn't know the login information. January is the first month that the credit card bills are coming out of Ryan's account. And so far it's been, it's been awesome.

Good. Ryan, how does that change feel to you?

It makes me feel more involved. It makes me feel like I have a stake in the game. You know, where I didn't before.

If you spend more than an hour per month on your money, you are almost certainly wasting time. You can DIY the automation yourself. Get my book. I will teach you to be rich. I'll put a link in the show notes or if you want my help, join my money coaching program. I will answer your questions on our monthly call. You can get a link in the show notes and you can join for our next call.

So I understand that, Ryan, you were working. Hannah, you were a stay at home mom. And then this flipped. When did that happen and why?

It happened in January of 2022. Yeah, January of 2022. Because Ryan's job was really overworking him and there were mo every day where he would leave before the girls would even wake up. And then most days he was getting home after they had already been went to bed. And it was really taxing on his physical health, his mental health.

Mental health?

Yeah, mental health. And so in 2017, I started a degree pro bachelor's degree program. And so when I graduated, we knew that that was going to be, you know, the plan that once I got my degree, hopefully I'd be able to match his earnings, you know, 60, 60 hour a week earnings. And then he would get to stay home.

And were you able to do that?

So in theory, yes, but it wasn't enough.

How much were you making at the time, Ryan?

70. Okay, maybe a little more.

Okay. And Kenna, how much do you make now?

Well, Now I make 70, but when I took the first job that I took after college, it was 56. Oh, wow.

So how. So you started making 56, Ryan, you said, okay, I'm going to be the stay at home dad now. And how'd you make that work? You know, the $14,000 difference?

Well, Ryan worked.

I got a part time. I just got like a brainless part time job just to facilitate that little bit of extra money.

Wow. Okay, that's cool. You two are working as a team.

It wasn't enough.

It wasn't enough. But there was no issue with one person working. One. Not et cetera, et cetera.

No, like I said early on, like, we didn't have our children for someone else to raise them. So it's super important that our values are the ones that they're main getting main, you know, their main course meals from, I guess.

Okay, great. All right, I get it. So right now, Kenna, you make 70? Yep. And Ryan, do you work a part time job now?

Yeah, I just do little Amazon deliveries.

How much do you make?

Maybe like 1200amonth.

1200Amonth?

Yeah. And that's just enough to pay all of our credit cards, our personal loan, and fuel my car for the deliveries.

Do you plan to continue this arrangement going forward?

Yeah, I mean.

I would eventually. I mean, I don't. I'm a very goal focused and eager person. And so I don't plan on staying at $70,000, not even until the end of this year. So hopefully, you know, we're hoping to get to a point where I, you know, amethyst under a hundred. Just over a hundred. And then Ryan can just work like a fun job. He won't feel so. And also, once we get these credit cards paid off, that's like our main focus right now is just one by one knocking them off. And then as those get paid off and shut down, we can not have to work as much, essentially. So he won't have to work as much.

And then our relationship is totally predicated on like, oh, when this happens, then we'll be able to do this. And then. But then that thing happens and we're just waiting for the next thing to happen, so.

And also sometimes when it happens, it doesn't work out the way you thought. Right. You mentioned you sold this condo, you paid off the debt and now it's back. Are you worried about that happening again?

No.

Oh, okay. You're not Kenna, are you?

I am. Well, I told him just two days ago that we should cut the credit cards as they're being paid off. And he said, well, we don't have to do that.

Guess when I have that conversation right now, I'd love to hear it.

I think they need to be cut. I think they need to be cut. I think most of them need to be closed.

Yeah, I agree with most of them needing to be closed. And I just don't understand, like, the ceremonious act of cutting them. And, like, that doesn't do anything for me.

Your seven and your four year old. Is that two daughters?

Yes.

What do you do on their birthdays?

Little birthday party.

Blow off cake, candles, presents.

What's with all those dumb ceremonies? Why would you do that?

Well, I mean, a birthday is a little more ceremonious than cutting a credit card. To me at least.

What are you talking about? Hold on. How much do you have on your credit card?

Which one?

20. Yeah, which one?

All of them together.

30,000.

That's a lot of money, dude.

No shit.

Can we create a ceremony around that?

100%.

All right, awesome. You know what? Let me put it this way. I learned a little secret from my wife. You can create as many ceremonies as you want. Nobody stops us as adults. You could create a ceremony every Monday.

But for the big things, it's like.

We gotta do this.

Yeah, I agree. I don't even think, as we pay them off, can we just cut them all up right now?

I mean. Yeah, I don't. It's not like keeping them isn't, like, some super ceremonial thing for me either. It's like, I'm good either way.

You guys want to do it right now?

Either way.

Should we do it right now?

I can go get them right now?

Yeah, get them. This is cool.

This is so big. This is huge.

Is it huge? Okay. How many are there? Two.

Five.

All right, so where's the scissors?

No, we have a shredder.

Oh, well, I need to see it happen.

Yeah, Kenna will show you. It's right underneath her. It's at her knees. I'll walk these down to her right now.

Yeah, yeah. Hold the camera up and let's get these things going.

Okay.

All right. This is a big moment. Are you guys gonna, like, do some kind of chant or song or something? What are we gonna do to make this theatrical?

What about a big hug and a smooch?

Yeah, that sounds great to me.

Sounds good to me too. Let's get it on camera. What would you.

What would you rather have? No, no, that's Maybe some, like, pitchforks and, you know, go down there, like.

I like it. I'm your happiest spectator.

I'll be right back.

All right.

I'm so proud of him, I might cry.

This is cool.

I'm trying to see if I can. The shredder doesn't have a very long cord, but it's fine. Are you okay?

Yeah.

Are you sure this is something you want to do? I don't want to use them anyway. I have a hug.

You can hold that up.

No, the cord's not long enough. Okay. Okay. You hold that.

Oh, there we go.

There we go. Great, great, great. Okay.

Yes.

Go ahead. Let us hear that sound. So satisfying. Well, it's a silent shredder. What is this? Is that thing shredding?

Yeah.

Okay.

There we go.

What does it feel like to see these things going down the tube?

Okay, for me, it, like, signified that Ryan is really. Is really, like, on board, and that means it when he says that he's ready to, like, get out of debt.

I think that's so cool. Hey, round of applause. I will take the win. That was awesome.

Are you crying?

No. I don't have emotional attachment to these things. I just never had anything, like, I think, like, really, like, what set the tone for, like, me liking the credit cards was we went to apply for a home loan, and they were like, dude, you're like a ghost. You don't have any credit. And I was like, boom, on top of my game. You know, I don't owe anybody anything. And they're like, no, that's not the way it works.

We. We all do the best we can with what we're taught. You were never told anything about money, okay. But now you're married. Now we're here. So let's get it to the next level. No big deal.

Yep.

All right.