“We’re worth $5.5 Million…and it’s driving us apart”
Matt and Ruanne, married 9 years with a combined income of $650,000, have let money create distance. They keep separate accounts, pool by percentage, and Matt once said
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I'm not a gold digger. I'm not trying to get you for all your properties and all your money. I make my own money. I'm a full time, you know, career woman. And I don't need your money.
There's no prenup and we're married. And the next month she decides she made a mistake. She can walk away with half or more or worse.
I don't want to be afraid to talk about money. I live in the past. There's a lot of hurtful things that got us to where we are, and it revolves around money and I hold on to that.
It's just I what I tell Ren whenever she asks me for my birthday. It's time with her. I just want my wife back. That's the rich life for me. The switch hasn't flipped fully for me yet. Where now I can say, okay, let's enjoy this. You know, it's been years of darkness. It can't go on.
What would you do if you felt.
Disconnected from your partner of nine years?
What if both of you felt alone and you both wanted more quality time together, but you couldn't figure out how? Well, today I'd like to introduce you to Matt, who's 40, and Ruanne, 38. They both live in Toronto. They have two kids. And in today's conversation, you're going to hear some shocking admissions, including a conversation they had before they got married that has haunted their relationship ever since. I'd like to read you a little bit from their application. We've been married for nine years and lived together for 13 years, and I have always subsidized our lifestyle. Our kids are getting older and soon they won't be the glue to keep us together. This is a fascinating conversation, and before we get into it, I want to ask you one question. When was the last time you had a productive conversation about money with your partner? You know, on this show, you'll hear me recommend to guests that they have regular money dates. I talk about money with my wife regularly. Well, this Saturday in my newsletter, I'm going to share how to have a money date with your partner, including specifically, what do you talk about, when should you have them, and how do you make sure that they're actually fun as opposed to being filled with conflict? I'll even share a simple agenda you can use to guide the conversation. And you can only get it by signing up for my newsletter before this Saturday, November 25th at iwt.com/podcast newsletter.
Matt bought a condo. We bought a condo. It wasn't necessarily about a disagreement. I'm more. I'm more cautious with money. Matt's more. He's riskier with money. He loves to invest. He wants to always, you know, let's. Always looking at property, was looking at real estate, and I'm kind of always shutting it down. Are you sure we have enough? Is that, you know, is it going to be too much? And we talked about this condo. We decided collectively that it wasn't going to move forward. And then he still bought it anyway.
What do you mean he bought it anyway?
He came like, I got home after the boys from school, and he's like, oh, we got a condo. And I was like, huh, what?
That's like me saying, oh, we got an extra bag of chips from the grocery store. Matt. You're just like, we got a condo.
He's like, yeah, let's celebrate.
I was like, out of curiosity, did you celebrate?
No, I was pretty pissed off. It didn't go very well in our household that evening.
So what did you say?
I don't understand. I thought we weren't going to. I thought we talked about we weren't going to go forth with it. And his response was, it was an opportunity. The agent kind of called him and it was kind of like, very time sensitive. And he made a decision. We talked about it in depth about this condo, and I gave my opinion. I just didn't, you know, the numbers made sense. It was. It was affordable. You're not going to get a condo. That caught, like, I understand that. I understand the market, I understand. I understand all of that. But then there was some nuance about investing with someone else. And, you know, it kind of get. It can get mucky. And we decide, I think it's best to just do it us. And then I don't think the money really worked at the time. So we decided that it wasn't going to go forward. And I thought it was. It like, we're done out of the mind. And then when he bought was like, oh, look, we purchased something. Yeah. And I'm like, that's not exciting for me. Like, I wasn't. I thought this wasn't happening.
Okay, Ruann, how did it make you feel when you heard that Matt had gotten the condo, which, from your understanding, you had agreed not to get, like, left out?
Not even just left out, just deflated. I was like, well, thanks for making a decision without me. You know, I didn't feel good, didn't feel great.
Deflated. What does that mean to you?
I just, I don't Feel valued, as in the relationship, to be a part of that conversation or that decision?
The condo that I did buy is actually different than the one that I think we talked about previously. It was the same development, but it was a little different situation. It was time sensitive. Now, maybe I got caught up in the excitement, but it was a time sensitive offer that afternoon, that day, that hour, and I made a gut decision at the time. She was with her kids, she was tied up. I didn't want to take her away from that. I felt it was the right thing to do.
Where was she specifically when you got that phone call?
In the playground, as was I.
Wait, you're at the playground while she was there?
Yeah, we're both in the playground. She was watching our kids. She was talking with one of the moms. And I got a call. I walked away and made a call.
Why don't you just walk right back over to that slide and be like, hey, babe, I got a question for you.
It didn't seem like the place I could have. I pass a lot of ideas past her and she's never pounded the table ever to buy one. I think the last condo I purchased was 11, 12 years ago, before we were married. We haven't bought any since we've been married. And before that, I bought multiple condos. So I've waited and waited and waited.
How much was this condo, by the way?
Just over 400,000 Canadian, so about 300,000 U.S. okay.
Is there any feeling, Ruann, from your perspective about the number itself, or is your feeling more about being left out and not valued, as you put it?
Left out and not value, to be honest, like, 400 is a good cost, like for that condo, it's great value. He always comes correct. He comes with all of his information. He talked about the location, how much we can get for it. Airbnb, it, rent it out, talked about how close it was to the transit system.
So, like, Ruann, why did. If it sounds great, why did you, when you weighed in, why did you say no to the condo?
I think I said to him, the cost is good. I think it makes sense. But can it. Does it work for us? Like, is that realistic? Like, so it's a two hour, an hour and a half drive from where we live. You manage your condos, you do all of your management of the condos yourself. Is that realistic for us to drive all the way out there if something's wrong? I mean, that didn't matter to him. That stuff doesn't actually matter to him. Because if he Puts his mind to something, he's going to dedicate the time. He's okay to drive the drive if that's what has to happen. I'm not that person. I'm like, it's just too much work.
When he brought you the proposal for the condo, you thought, on paper, this looks good. The numbers wise, you raised some concerns. Does this make sense for your lifestyle, for our lifestyle, et cetera? He said, I don't care. It's fine with me. Was there actually a decision made in that conversation?
No. Oh, I think this is the crux of a lot of what happens between the two of us is that, you know, we talk about it, we talk around it, we kind of just put a pin in it, and then it just never gets picked back up.
I think it's tough for, you know, maybe a part of it is, I know all the numbers. I've just. I live and breathe this stuff, so it's easy for me. I don't think it's as easy for Ren to be decisive. I think, you know, the opening comments she said was, I'm just more risky. I'm.
I'm.
I think, like an investor. I'm okay with risk. I think I hear a lot of all of the concerns and risks and challenges. You know, when someone. When everyone doesn't want to buy a condo, that's when I want to buy it. It's a bit of, you know, oil and water and perspective in that.
Okay, a few clues that I notice.
Ruann's first comment was, Matt bought a condo.
We bought a condo.
Did you catch that slip, that difference of his money, our money, Then Matt mentioning that he's waited and waited to buy another property. And the comment that he didn't want to bother her because she was playing with the kids, which was about 10ft away on the playground. But the clue that really caught my eye was when Rouanne said they decided collectively they weren't going to move forward, and then Matt bought it anyway. But when I probed, she admitted that the property was a great deal, it was made a lot of financial sense, and she'd actually never really said no. Seems to me that there's a lot of communication issues, and I'd like to dive into that. I will say I do love the idea that someone just randomly bought a $400,000 condo and surprised their spouse. Is this inconceivable for anyone else but me? We'll be right back. Let's get back to Matt and Roanne.
I live in the past. I hold on to all the things that got us to where we are. There's a lot of hurtful things that got us to where we are, and it revolves around money. And I hold onto that. Boundaries were set from the beginning, and that created the dynamic around money.
Like, what boundaries?
Sorry, Matt, but we were driving in New Zealand. We went for six months, and I remember us driving, and he made it very clear that his money was his money, my money was my money, and there was no crossover. And that was when we were just. We were dating. And he's like. He talked about a prenup. And, you know, if I felt. I didn't feel good sitting in the car, and I'm like, this is the person that I want to. I'm going to. I thought I was going to spend my life with. And here he is saying to me that what's mine is mine is what's yours is yours. And basically, you don't have any say in that. Like, I'm like, I'm not a gold digger. I'm not trying to get you for all your properties and all your money. I make my own money. I'm a full time, you know, career woman, and I don't need your money. So I didn't understand that. And I came from a family where my mom and dad are married and these everything's collected together. So, like, I just thought that's what it was going to be. And he made it very clear that's not how it was going to be.
Okay, and when you heard that conversation, what were your feelings?
Oh, I felt destroyed. I felt like, what am I actually in my head? Like, what am I doing? Is this the right person for me? I just felt like, you know, he doesn't trust me. You know, that's the clear indication that you don't trust your partner. Like, you don't want to blend our money together. You don't want to tell me how much you make, how much you. How much you actually make, what you're worth?
Like, you didn't. You didn't know how much he made?
Not really. Like, can you. He was. He was in school.
Now that you've been married, now that you have two children, now that you understand more of Matt's views on money, if you look back at that conversation in the car, does it take on any new light for you?
No. I mean, I'm not surprised. I mean, he's worked hard for where he's at. He's worked hard for where he was before he met me, and he was holding onto that, and I don't blame him for that. I was hurt. I'm not gonna lie. I was very hurt. But I also was able to understand where it was coming from, and I don't think it was. I convinced myself that it wasn't personal. It was his way of protecting himself. And I couldn't blame him for that. Like, I'm. And I was like, well, I'm not want your money. So fine, do you? I'll do me.
I remember the deafening silence, I guess, after I said that.
What exactly did you say?
I said what's. What's mine is mine and what's yours is yours. Okay. I don't know. I can't remember what inspired that or, you know, what. If there's anything that brought it on, other than it seemed like risk protection.
Did you end up signing the prenup?
We never did a prenup.
Okay, all right.
He never brought it up again. You never brought it up again.
Matt, what the hell? Beyond being insulting, that's just bad strategy. You brought up this extremely weird self protective phrase, and then you didn't even do the prenup. And notice, by the way, how Ruann remembers every single detail of this conversation 10 years later, even after having two children together. This is a great reminder that a single conversation about money can truly change everything. And sometimes that's for the better, sometimes for the worse.
So you make a lot more Matt than Rouen, is that right?
Yes.
Okay, so you got married. No prenup. Did you combine your finances when you got married? Rouen. Shaking her head no. All right, so we have a marriage that was started where one person had a disproportionate amount of assets. Sounds like he had some condos, probably a bunch of cash and portfolio stuff. Roanne, maybe not nearly as much. And Matt, your income has continued probably grown. Rouanne, I'm sure yours has grown as well, but maybe not as much as Matt's. Fair enough.
Yeah. Correct.
Okay.
Yeah.
So my. My checks from work went into my account, his check from work went to his account. And then we put a percentage based on how much we were, how much our incomes were, and we put it into a pool. And that's what paid all our bills.
Okay.
You still do that?
Yeah. Yeah, we still do that.
Okay, what's the percentage breakdown?
80, 20, 90, 10, something like that.
This all sounds very familiar to me. I completely understand some of the dynamics around this.
We never struggle. We don't struggle for. We buy what we want. We pay off our credit cards. I don't have any actual debt, like no line of credit. We buy everything outright when we got a car. It's bought cash or full out. We don't take on any leases or finance or anything like that. I think we're doing pretty good, to be honest.
It's just I. What I tell Ren whenever she asks me for my birthday, it's time with her. I just want my wife back. That's the rich life for me.
Back means what? Back from where?
Back from involved. You know, just our world revolves around our kids day in and day out. And that's the irony of this whole thing is you work so hard to provide for your kids, and then your life gets taken over by your kids. And we've forgotten about our. We've forgotten about ourselves. And that's what I miss. I miss real quality time on my own. And with Graham.
It was one of my birthdays, Matt, that you took me to Niagara Falls and we were having dinner. And it's the first time he has ever said to me, I want my wife back. That blew my mind. It was like, you know, like a earthquake in my life because I never. He's never said that to me since having children.
How long ago was that?
Four years ago. Maybe two. Maybe four. Yeah. Pre Covid. So four years ago. And I remember sitting there and I was sad. I was hurt that he felt that way. I was like, oh, my God. I didn't know that you felt like this. I didn't know that that was a priority for you. I didn't know I was a priority for you. Because we were just exist in. When you have two small kids under the age of four, you are literally on survival mode. Every day. Every day. I call it the Thousand Days of Darkness. And we just came out. Being a mom is. Is a tough job. And I embody it to the extent where I sacrifice what I want. Sacrifice getting stuff for myself, for them, and sacrificed our relationship.
What's an example of something you sacrifice for yourself?
I just don't buy myself anything. Like, I don't.
Like.
I wear very. The same clothes all the time. I don't shop on a regular basis for myself. I just haven't prioritized buying something new for myself.
Could you?
I could. I could.
Is it a money issue?
No.
Okay.
Is it because Matt tells you, like, don't buy a new pair of pants or something?
No.
Okay.
It's just that you are putting your energy into your kids and your job, not yourself.
Correct. I have a. I worked full time up until last year for 1716 years, and I work in a healthcare, and it's very stressful, and I take care of people every single day. And then I come home and I take care of my family every single day. So I just. I don't find room for myself.
Putting yourself last is such a common theme among the couples I speak to, especially the moms, and it speaks to our cultural expectations, our gender expectations, and also the way that we treat money. Let's talk about how money influences this feeling. Matt and Ruann make a lot of money. If a couple makes as much money as they do, they can pay away a lot of stresses of parenting. Not all of them, but they can use money to buy back their time. If you are watching or listening to this, you should look at Matt and Ruann as a crystal ball, because many of us believe that if we just earn more money, all of our problems would magically vanish. But they make $650,000 a year, and she still puts herself last. And he still says that he wants his wife back. However, as we've heard on this podcast over and over, just having money does not mean you know how to spend it meaningfully. Part of my job today is to try to peel away the layers of money and resentment to find out what's really going on here before we go on. What do you think is happening here?
It's an easily solved problem with money. There's lots of money to go around. I. I don't know why she doesn't. I feel guilty. Otherwise, I don't know why she says it to me.
Do you think that when she says, I don't have clothes, she means something about you?
Yeah, because when. When I need something, I buy it. I don't ask, I just buy it. I think she's worried about money. I think she's worried about spending. I don't think I. I tell her all the time that there's. I can do analysis paralysis with money or with dollars. It doesn't seem to resonate the way that.
Show a spreadsheet. What do you show?
Lots of spreadsheets.
Does that work?
I've tried to distill it down.
No, it doesn't work.
So how many. How many sheets are on your spreadsheet that you show? Tell me.
More than I can count.
What'd you do in finance? Were you in banking? P.E. what was it?
I was an investment banker.
So when. When you sit down with your model and you're like. You're like, babe, babe, come over here. And then you show her this model, right? Has like, the most beautiful colors and, like, borders. You go, babe, you're never going to understand the complexity of this model. Okay, Just forget about it. It's not humanly possible, but just look at how everything flows correctly.
Go ahead.
Type in two instead of three. Just watch.
Yo. Honestly, this is like a conversation that's happened.
I know, because every single baker has this conversation. And then, Matt, what's Ruann's reaction? Is she super excited to jump into the model?
No.
She starts to snooze, off to sleep. Wow.
That's so shocked.
Wow. All right.
Yeah.
Bakers, take notice. Nobody gives a about your model. I personally think it's really cool. If anyone is a banker and wants to help me with my models for free, great. However, I don't want to pay, and I don't care about the complexity of it. I certainly know that spouses of bankers really do not care, as I've learned.
Can we talk about the numbers now?
I'm laughing because bankers and PE guys and other finance people always want to talk about the numbers. That's part of the problem. No, we're not going to talk about the numbers yet.
What do you both think that the primary problem is here? Describe it to me in a sentence or two.
One thing is scarcity, mindset. One of the things that I think we've both seen our parents do is deprive themselves of all kinds of things in the goal of trying to give a better life for us. And that's just what we saw, and that's what we try and emulate. I just don't think it's necessary in this instance. I think it's hurting more than it's helping. There's a lot of the skills I've learned to get here, Saving and modeling and all of these things and boosting my income. This switch hasn't flipped fully for me yet, where now I can say, okay, let's enjoy this. Let's not, you know, die when we're 90 with 25 million in the account, let's start spending. And I don't think that has fully switched for me.
Okay, that's honest. I appreciate that. And, Roanne, how about for you? What do you think the problem is here in one or two sentences?
I think because Matt makes more money than me and I don't make the money, I feel like it doesn't belong to me.
You feel like the household money is not your money?
I feel like any money he makes is not mine.
Well, he did say my money is my money, and your money is Your money.
Correct.
I've expressed to him that my money psychology when it comes to him is because of that conversation.
That one conversation.
That one conversation paved the way for how he looks at us as a relationship. And what. He was like, these are my condos. They don't belong to you. And I was like, well, when we get married, like, theoretically, they do belong to me because we're together, but I don't want. I don't want your condos.
Well, did you ever talk to her about that conversation directly?
Maybe not.
I don't think we ever did, to be honest.
What were you feeling when you said that to her?
Maybe I felt I was working harder. I was putting more into the relationship, putting more into our future. Studying, working. I remember I was working while we were traveling. I was working and studying. I was booking all the vacations. I was paying for a lot of it. I don't know if all of it, but a lot of it. Maybe I just felt like I was doing more and maybe I felt taken advantage of.
Ran, what do you think?
I mean, I can go on defense and. I mean, I paid for a lot of parts of that vacation, all of that vacation. I thought pretty much equally. I was never living off of him. I took my savings and took a leave of absence from work and went with him to Australia. I thought I was doing my part and contributed my part. Was I working as hard as him? No. He went and did an exchange and was doing classes and he was studying for his CFA and I was not. And I don't know if that could have contributed to the fact. Well, here I am just chilling, and I'm not having to study because that's. I've done it. I'm a registered respiratory therapist. I'm done. I have my career. I don't need to study. So I don't. I don't know. It's that I've never. He's never expressed that before.
Matt. I've only just met both of you, and, you know, clearly both of you, very intelligent, very professionally accomplished. I don't get the sense that Ruann was, like, out hunting for somebody with money. She seems quite accomplished on her own, and. And I'm trying to get into that car. I'm almost trying to be, like, in the backseat listening in 10 years ago.
I mean, it's a reality. Like Ran said, I can say whatever I want, but if there's no prenup and we're married and the next month she decides she made a mistake, she can walk away with half or more or worse, you know, that's a reality. As a man. That's how it works.
And has she ever given you that indication?
I think at that time, I think about in that car, you know, there's a lot of. Dynamics in our relationship, in the family. And, you know, maybe I was afraid as well, that, yeah, maybe I was afraid she'd walk away, that her family would get her ear and she, she could leave, she, I could lose her.
How about now, 10 years later, two kids later? Has she given any indication of that ever? That was a no.
That was a no. It was a horrible mistake. I, I, yeah, it's, it's the worst of both worlds because, you know, she still remembers this. You know, this is over a decade ago, and I, I don't know how to undo it.
Matt, if you could say anything about that conversation. I'm not pressuring you to say anything you don't feel comfortable with, but have you ever thought about what you might do if you were in that car in New Zealand? Again?
I guess I would say I don't think I have the skills then that I do now. But what I'd say is I want to make a life together, and I want us both committed to that.
So I wonder if it's maybe time to turn the page on the fears from a decade ago. I mean, you have built a life together as deep of an integrated life as you possibly can. Kids living together, property together. You haven't integrated your bank accounts. But okay, fine, you know, aside from a joining, that's fine. I mean, if she was going to.
Leave, she left or she would.
I, that hasn't come up at all. So instead of worrying about what might be, which was like the mat of, I don't know, a decade ago, it's.
Like, wow, what if we could actually.
Go on offense together and talk about all the things that could go right. If the two of you approached the world like that, just for the next 60 seconds, how do you think it would change the type of conversations you have about money?
I think it would improve it.
How so?
I think Matt's love language is, is money. His love language is finance.
What? That's not a love language.
For him it is.
Maybe, maybe if his love language is money, maybe you should just spend some time with his Excel models and that would actually make him really happy. What do you think?
It would make me so happy.
And when I say, when I say his love language is money, he enjoys when I engage with him on the things that he's passionate About. And that is about finance and about investments. And to be honest, that's why I started listening to your podcast more. So, one, you're very captivating, and it's. It's intriguing. The other piece is it makes him happy. And I think I have. Haven't made him happy in a long time.
Do you want to acknowledge what she's been doing?
Yeah, of course. I appreciate you taking the time and listening and doing this podcast. I'm sure this was a big stretch for you.
It means what to me? Fill it in, Matt.
It means a lot to me. Are you making an effort? It's a way of showing that you care. All right, that was nice.
Ruanne, you ever hear that before? From him?
Sometimes. Not enough. Not enough.
Yeah.
Showing gratitude. Something I'm not good at, but I know that it means a lot.
I find sometimes it's difficult to get Matt to be soft and sensitive, and I'm soft and gooey, and he's hard, tough. I just want someone else to help him understand how I view things and also help allow me an opportunity to meet him halfway. I want us to meet halfway. I want him to understand me, and I need to understand him in order for us to be united. To be honest, my mom, I love her, but my dad did everything. I don't want to paint that picture.
Yes.
And I don't. And Matt knows that that's where this is going. Which is also why he's pushy. Doesn't do it in the right ways, but he's his.
He cares.
Let's say he does. He does. No. The intentions are so pure execution.
That's a powerful moment. Both of them love each other, but he doesn't express gratitude. And she makes jokes like, Matt's love language is money. But those jokes actually obscure that he really wants quality time, which, interestingly enough, she's been actively doing in many ways. Both of them have great intentions, but notice that they're dancing around what they are doing and what they truly want instead of coming right out and saying, I love you. I know you value this, and I want to support you as a partner. Now, listen, as we go deeper into the idea of quality time, I just.
Sometimes want to feel apart.
Give me a specific example.
He wants to buy a. A dream home, vacation home. And I want to do that as well. I just struggle with the responsibilities of it, the responsibilities of managing it. And I'm afraid all these investments that he puts his self into, he takes away from us. If there's something that happens in the condo he has to leave on a weekend to go deal with it. And I'm, you know, we don't get that quality time to spend with each other.
Okay.
It's funny because he's mentioned that he wants more quality time with you, and you now mention that you want more quality time with him.
I think we are so focused on our family and our children, and we just don't make real quality time for each other.
How many millions of dollars do you need to do that?
I, I don't know.
I don't, I. Matt, you want more quality time with Iran. What's stopping you?
I don't want to point the finger.
But.
I, I, I find it's, There's a lot of excuses about, There's a lot of reasons why it can be difficult, but if we both want it, we should be able to get it done.
It's only been nine years. Maybe the next 19 years, you guys.
Will crack the code.
What else? I mean, okay, I agree. There's, you know, there's definitely reasons. A couple who's been married a long time, who have jobs, who have kids, of course there's reasons not to spend quality time.
We get that. But you're both smart, so what else?
What, what's beneath that that you can't find quality time for the two of you?
Silence for a long time. Kids has strained our relationship. I think we just didn't want to spend time with each other. I think we, I say, and I say this, and I'm not ashamed of it. I didn't like him for a long time. It was hard.
