About Srila Prabhupada, Guru Maharaja's talk with Prof. Kotovsky | Rus-Split | 2.7.92 | Moscow

And after his death, you have somebody who is on the apex of the movement as such. Yes, yes. Who is—

Prabhupāda appointed a governing body commission, a governing body commission of about 25 people who are looking after the running of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement all over the world. So I am one of them, and I am overseeing Moscow, Leningrad, and India, and different places, along with some other people. We are 5 of us who work in—

5? Out of 25?

Yes. But we also work in other parts of the world.

Yes, I understand.

And so I spend 4 months a year traveling in this country. And with me there is one other devotee, Jitiraj, who works here. And then there are other leaders in different parts of the world. But in your— in this country, our movement has expanded very, very much.

Yes, I have heard about it. I don't know exact figures, but I have heard.

Actually, now our movement is the biggest in Your country, it's the biggest in the whole world.

Biggest? For us, for ISKCON. Out of the Krishna Consciousness movement?

Yes.

Ah, yes, I'm very surprised. It is more, it is more than in Canada, United States, United Kingdom, more.

Yes, it's much bigger now.

Oh, but is it? So now the main base of the movement is here?

No, the main base is everywhere, but But the people are— actually, you are very famous in our society.

Oh, I know.

I am, you know, I am scientist, atheist, etc., orientalist. How can I be famous among devotees? A person who doesn't believe in God, he is an atheist, very strong. And I am 69, so I can't change.

That's okay, but you have some special mercy of God on you because you had the opportunity to meet our spiritual master Bhakti Nanda Swami.

It's very long, very interesting talk, very long talk for 2 hours.

You see, all your talks with him have been published in our books.

I know, you see, but you know, there is a saying in Russian, not You see, it is bad to speak something bad about a person who passed away. But this interview was made without my control. You know, sometimes, sometimes, situation, political situation was very difficult.

I know, yes, I know.

And you know very well that that time Krishna Consciousness movement was new. We were in New York. As CIA-sponsored movie from Kennedy in Chicago. Yes. And frankly speaking, I took a lot of risk of meeting.

Are you the one who invited Prabhupada? You invited him to Moscow?

No, no, no.

You did not invite him?

Because I couldn't invite what was a— No, your institute? No, no, also institute not invited. You know, because Academy of Sciences, how can— who could invite? Academy of Sciences, like Presidium or Institute, but nice Institute, not Academy, never would that time invite a religious leader. That's because practically some religious leaders were invited to Soviet Union on political grounds, but all this was so Peace Committee. Peace Movement, Peace Committee, only that. But he was invited, in fact he was invited by Embassy of India.

I met him in India, Embassy of India.

And how he could get visa? Embassy of India will get nothing. So I am to, you know, to inform you very truth. He was invited by Embassy in India. And then I was telephoned personally from Embassy of India by one of the secretaries, he has come with his followers, he would like to meet you. Okay, fixed up. Next day, and, uh, but very interesting, there was not a single Indian. There were about 12-15 young people, followers, but all of them were Canadian and Americans at that time.

Where did the meeting take place? In your office?

Yes, in my office, in the old building. Now our institute is situated, it is called Rozhdetschenka, ex-Zhdanov Street. It is in very center. But at that time our institute was situated Armiansky Lane in a very old house where before revolution was housed institute also, Oriental Languages, sponsored by Armenian trading community in Moscow. But we shifted from that institute in 1987. But that old building took place in my office room.

We would like to take a photograph sometimes of that room where Prabhupāda was talking to you.

Ah, yes, this can be done. We are to have permission from Armenian Embassy because now in this house is being hosted Armenian Embassy and Armenian Cultural Center. If they would permit, I may ask. If somebody will go with me, I shall ask them a request. Maybe they will agree. That doesn't matter.

I don't know.

Maybe say no. Maybe they have replanted, I don't know exactly, maybe, but I'm not sure.

We can— let Sri Ramdas—

Sri Ramdas is his name, name means spiritual name, spiritual name, spiritual name, yes, you are right. Yes, but coming back, because when he came and it was very difficult political times, I asked that this would be very private, we shall not notice nor record, but somebody from the scholars recorded without my knowledge. And then some years after, some years after, I got, I have already one of my pupils, Indologist, Professor Rybakov, who was studying, you know, reformatory movements in Hindu religion, late 19th century. He was in India, traveling, and then he discovered this small booklet in Russian. So he brought me. Oh, I was astonished. But the only thing is that they recorded, they recorded, okay, and then it was in English, and then they translated because this booklet in Russian.

I never seen original English.

If you would supply me with English edition, Because, you know, I may tell that the contents, okay, there was no distortion, so I have no complaint. But frankly speaking, the translation from English to Russian, that time, was not very good one, very crude Russian. It looked like it was not a Russian person translating, but somebody knowing Russian. But if you like, you You are to make new translation.

I have another— Dr. Kutowsky?

Yes, yes, yes.

I will arrange to get you the original tapes of your conversation with Prabhupāda.

That would be very interesting.

I will arrange that.

I have tape recorder in my—

I will arrange to get that for you.

That would be very kind of you.

But at least I think we can present this book with his—

We can present many books to you. To Dr. Kitowski.

Especially because he's the one who introduced me. Yes, yes, sure. If you would present this one in English version.

Okay, English version.

Is there English version where all this discussion was?

Yes, it's online, Doctor.

I can show you, but it is online, my own English version. Okay, okay.

Otherwise, Dr. Kitowski, we will get you one, no problem. I'll arrange to get you one. But I will arrange to get you The original Catholics. I was telling you why you're very famous. I just got a call from one of my devotees from Paris. I told him I was just in the meeting with Dr. Kutursky. He said, "Oh, that Kutursky!" I said, "Yeah." No, but— Everyone knows him.

But don't you think French and Paris would laugh at you?

No, they won't. You see, I had come to your country In 1976, I was sent by Swami Prabhupada here, and I came in suits at that time, and I was trying to see you, and I met and I spent about 2 weeks at the Institute of Oriental Studies.

But why you haven't met me?

I think, I think I— no, I met you.

Uh-huh.

I met you in 1976.

Ah, yes, yes, maybe because I, I see something familiar in your face.

No, no, I met you in— I met you in 1976.

Yes.

But at that At that time you were not, you were not too interested. You know, at that time. No, but you know who I met? I met Professor Levin.

Bongard Levin.

Bongard Levin. He gave me a review. Of course, at that time, frankly, you know, there was so much of, you know, if you may, if I may say, you know, influence of government sources and all, you know, through various agencies.

No, of course.

And everything was controlled.

Yes, but it's allowed.

Like I know Professor Bernard Levin, he spoke to me, he gave me a very nice review on our books, but then when I went to meet him on Monday, he gave me the review on Friday. When I went to meet him on Monday, he said, 'Can you show me the review I gave you?' I showed it to him and he just kept it inside and said, 'My boss says I can't give it.' Where is he now, this Bernard Levin?

He's in Moscow. He just returned from Paris. I was in Paris for 2 months.

He speaks a little French?

Yes.

Did you spend a long time in India?

Oh yes, but not— I never was in India for a long time. For the most, 3 months, no more. But in total, I first came to India in 1956. In December 1956, first visit. The last visit was last year. I was 1.5 months with my wife, who also is an anthropologist. She is a specialist in Indian theatre, in Indian performance arts.

I wish we knew.

And she is a big boss because she is director of Russian Institute of Fine and Performance Arts.

Even now she is director?

Yes, she is director. She is director for long years. Yes, so we were together invited by Indian Council Social Sciences, that is my counterpart, yes, and this was my 34th visit to India.

Anybody?

So I was in India 34 times. I traveled all India from north to south in villages. Now when I grew old, it was difficult for me to go to villages because, you know, Indian village life is It's difficult for an European, but when I was younger, I was traveling and was visiting and living in many villages, so grassroots. I have many, many friends in India.

I also regularly meet Professor Kalyanov in Leningrad.

Kalyanov.

Yeah, I have been to his house many times.

Yes, Kalyanov, one of the old, our old Sanskritologists.

And also there's another professor in Leningrad, he's teaching, name starts with B. His father was also Indologist.

Ah, Baranika.

Baranika.

Baranika.

Yes, that's it.

He teaches Hindi in university.

Yes, his father was also academician.

Baranika translated Ramayana, Hindi Ramayana.

Yeah.

—Vai-me-querer, not vai-me-querer. Now you're completely retired? No, I'm not retired.

You look very active, look very healthy.

I am? Yeah. No, healthy more or less, because in '69 something is starting. But generally, and I am not go because just now I'm in charge, in charge of very big two projects. One project is Modern history of Asia. I have a team of people under me and we're preparing next year, we have to submit manuscript, a history of Asia, modern history. That means from late 18th century up to First World War. Second, it is 4 volumes history of India. I have 4 teams under me. We have medieval, because ancient history by Bunker Levin and De Leon— other departments.

So now we— who is going to publish that?

Who will? Our Academy of Sciences publishing house. Now we have a lot of difficulties. Now we are on the fringe of bankruptcy in the publishing house Academy of Sciences. But I hope— I'm optimistic we shall survive. In 2 years it would be more or less stabilized.

I remember reading the conversation that Prabhupāda had with you. Yes. Prabhupāda made the point that we also believe in communism, but the only— and Prabhupāda quoted to you the words from the Isha Upaniṣad, īśā vāśairāṁ sarvāmyātkin ca jagatyaṁ sakaṣyaṣyaḥ, that one should have as much as he needs and not more. But Prabhupāda pointed out one thing, if I may complete, which is he said that communism without God cannot work. You know.

Oh yes, I understand. I agree.

But this is— So today you can preach—

But it's difference between believers and non-believers, religious people, non-religious. It is very interesting that idea of communism But what does it mean, communism? Idea of a society when social material differences would be not so acute as present. So embodied in all religions, that's very interesting, this with your movement and generally with Hindu religion as such. There's also with Islam, it is Christianity. Who was the first communist? In Christianity, Jesus Christ, it is quite clear. Of course, all his preachers, etc., were against, you know. So because—

so the point is, the point that I was making is this, that communism or capitalism or socialism cannot work without God being in the center. Prabhupada's point to you was we are not against communism at all, because even our scriptures talk about communism, just like you said Jesus Christ was a communist. Because all scriptures talk about simple living and high thinking. Man should live with minimum bodily needs so that he can devote time to worship of God. But Prabhupada's point to you was that our only difference with Marxism or Leninism is that God, the Creator, is the missing link.

Yes, not only, not only, I may say, not only with Marxism-Leninism, but also with any secular, non-religious philosophy. Yes? Yes. Not only Marxism, but all non-religious, secular philosophy. Actually, that is his main difference. I agree, I fully agree, that's right.

So you can see Prabhupāda's teachings were very pure, and now in this old Soviet Union. We still call it the old Soviet Union because unfortunately we don't like the breakup. So do I. Yeah, so in the old Soviet Union we have nearly 100 branches. Yeah, and we have about 10,000 devotees and we are distributing thousands of books every day. So we will show you around. We have a very big—

yes, I have seen, I have looked at Your books are on a very good sale. So good. At metro station? At metro station, yes, not far even from our institute. It's just that people are really curious.

I wouldn't say just curious. I feel the Russian people are very philosophical. United Nations studies have shown that Russians are the biggest readers in the world. And I read a United Nations report. Oh yes, you are right. They read more than any other country in the world. You see, there are so many Konnichi stores in your country. There are not so many Konnichi stores in America or anywhere.

That's right. No, you see, one thing one needs to notice, note, that previously, before last 3-4 years, the prices of books are very low. And now they have gone up. Now they have gone up, and I'm sure that, no, Personally, I know that my relatives, children, grandchildren, they don't buy now as many books as previously because of high price. But you started many years back to learn Russian?

Blogger. I just know few.

But for you, I'm sure it was, uh, Prasad, easier to learn Russian than for any West European. But I don't know Russian. Because Sanskrit— Russian is one of the most difficult languages in the world. I know, yeah. I honor very much any foreigner who could take some knowledge of Russian. Your grammar is 100% now. Ochintrodnaya, but it is very close to Sanskrit. I learned Sanskrit, so I know what is it. But Brahman also is so far off.

But I can't speak Russian, just little.

One has to live and specialize and have some right connections.

Well, I make time. I have to travel a lot. In the last 2 months I've traveled in your country. Oh yes. Only about 15 cities. 15 cities. I've been right from Almada to Tashkent to Baku to Baltic Republics to Kiev, and tomorrow I'm going to Vladivostok.

And to where, and to where, where is the most concentration of devotees of Kṛṣṇa consciousness? In Russia. In Russia.

In Moscow. In Moscow we have two buildings. One is this, one is another center in Kaloosne. And then we have our publishing house here called BBT, Bhagavad Gita Book Trust.

But are you printing books here or abroad? No, in Russia. In Russia? Yeah, we are one of the biggest publishers here now.

Yes, yes, sir. We are printing millions of books.

So it is interesting that your publishing activities is much beyond the need of movement status, understand? Internal, because how many, if you told, in exorbitant, in Russia you have tens of thousands, it is a bigger group all over the world.

Yeah, but this is only people who are chanting and practicing, but there are thousands who are at home.

Yes, what I mean, what I mean.

Every day we sell about at least 2,000-3,000 books all over the world. We have already sold more than a million books.

More than million for this. So as I understand, you know, it is a delicate question to peep into somebody's pocket.

We have no privacy.

Yes, I understand, but so this is the main source of income. Yes, yes, yes.

Our spiritual master wanted this movement to be supported by the sales of his books. Bhaktirāṇḍa Swāmi Prabhupāda wrote nearly 100 books, and these books have been translated in over 100 languages of the world. 100? Yes.

I'm printing an unedited transcript of your conversation. Okay. Take about half an hour. Okay.

That's when the computers come in handy. So the thing is, we have these books in Chinese, and now Our books are just not in Russian. Which is interesting.

Is there some group who reads Russian?

Yes, we are now doing in all the Russian languages, Ukrainian, Khajab, the Baltic Republic, everything.

Oh, I don't think, I don't think. We have prepared. So you will have some success in Muslim Republics.

Maybe I am wrong. No, but we are there also. I just came from Almaty, Tashkent.

But mainly, mainly maybe Russians living. Russian speaking core, local population.

Yes, I can, I can, I can. Yes, I have one devotee from Baku, president, right in the room next door. He's other bhajan. One good thing I won't tell you, one good thing is, you see, Krishna consciousness is universal spiritual philosophy. We are not sectarian. We don't say Christians are bad, Muslims are bad, Hindus are bad. We say God exists. God has a name. We as human beings have a duty towards God. We should live a life of spiritual discipline. We should avoid activities which are against laws of God, like meat, fish, and egg, intoxication, illicit sex life, gambling. We don't say don't— like he, Vishwamitra, he's a scientist working here. He's also a master's degree from Moscow University and he's an engineer, electrical engineer. We have people of all walks of life. I myself was working in America when I joined the movement. So the point is you can continue doing whatever ability God has given you. Yes. Just like you have been blessed by God. You may say you're an atheist, but I don't think you're an atheist. I think that we have— You are deep within your heart, you do acknowledge the position of God, otherwise you would not have met Prabhupāda.

Yes, you see, yes. No, this is, I understand, this is quite natural for your moment because roots of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is in Hindu religion. This is your— We call it the Vedic religion.

Your base.

So please, Prasad. But don't, please, Krishna consciousness, you look at it as separate religion. Then what? Or some, or religion movement based on Hindu religion. We look about— Nobody of them saying they are Hindu.

No. I'll answer that. That's very interesting. In the entire Vedic text, there is no such word as Hindu.

Oh yes, I know.

Okay, so we are basically Followers of the Vedas or followers of a process called Sanatana Dharma. Sanatana Dharma means eternal duty of the living entity.

And in the Bhagavad Gītā, Kṛṣṇa says, aham bija-padāpitā.

He says, I am the father of everyone. So Kṛṣṇa doesn't say, I am the father of the people living in India. Also, as you know, at one time the whole planet was called Bharatvarsha, but today India is a tiny portion of what it was at one time. You know, the boundaries of India, the boundaries of countries are changing every day. The boundary of Soviet Union last year is not today anymore. So, but the India we have today is very, very small. So Veda, Veda as you know means knowledge. So this Vedic concept, the Vedic way of life, is for the whole world. You just see, Dr. Kutowski, how easily people in your country are taking to Krishna consciousness. We have no money to give them. We are frankly, you know, a very poor society financially. We have— and even in America, you know, there was no money to give people. There was no force. It's not that anybody's coming by force. It's not that any government agency has ever helped us. They've all come because they are finding it is satisfying them. Oh yes, no dispute. And even though we tell people, give up meat, give up fish, give up intoxication, give up tea, coffee, give up in the use illicit sex life, give up gambling, still they're taking to it. So that means there is some pleasure that they're getting which is higher than the pleasure they're getting Am I right?

Oh no, it is absolutely yes. I agree with you, sir. It's absolutely. When anybody is joining any religious movement, it is from his heart, from his psyche, from his spirit. It is quite obvious. It is necessary for him. He feels necessary. Yeah. Some kind of spiritual salvation through this process. It is quite obvious. And, uh, From my analysis, it is quite understandable why there is revival of interest and coming into religion. Well, I have my reasoning.

My understanding is your country has very deep-rooted villages. The people of your country have deep-rooted religious feelings. For example, religious. Yes, religious. If you go and see the Kremlin, I have seen the Kremlin only once, few years ago. You look inside in the Kremlin, it is nothing but paintings of Jesus Christ and his devotees. So even though for 70 years communism tried to take people away from God, it could not succeed. Because relationship with God is as natural as it is for a fish to desire to live in water.

You see, as non-believer, I have a bit different interpretation, but maybe I can share it with you. My interpretation is, you see, all humankind, humankind passed through 2 developments. The basic development, as we call from scientific point of view, the development of civilization. And there is a human civilization, but there are some sub-civilizations. For instance, Christian civilization, some Indian civilization based on Hinduism, on Buddhism because Buddha and Jain, it is some outfits of old Vedic religions and so on and so on. But all civilizations are based on two factors. The basic religion. There is no civilization without religion and also on ethnic groups. Ethnicity plus religion. No, I must say religion plus ethnicity. And then it is not discovered yet. I don't know how much the behavior and doings, you know, of a human being is based on what he was taught from childhood and was what already in this genotype. Okay. But it looks like it looks like that the religion is in genotype of any human being. So I agree with you, but your interpretation be different from me.

No, no, no.

I don't believe it, but even there is something, some religious feeling or feeling towards his own religion of a locality, even in heart of a non-believer, of atheist, because religion is the base of all the preceding history of his ancestors.

Okay, so is your—

So, this is, so, by given circumstances, by given circumstances, it will be easy to revive religious feeling.

Okay, so going by your own definition of civilization, what you are saying is this. That religion cannot be separated from mankind. Absolutely. So we have no problem. So my point is, this is what Prabhupāda was saying. Prabhupāda was saying, doesn't matter whether you have communism, capitalism, socialism, but you must make God the focal point. If God is in the center, because you cannot separate religion from a man's life. After all, just like your children may be separated from you for a few years, But because there's a certain relationship of father and son, mother and son, when they get together they're very happy and they're longing to get together. So if you keep people away from God, people will not progress morally or in terms of character. Just like, for example, today all over the world, you know, the character of mankind has fallen very much. All over the world. Yeah, it is. I have— yesterday I was in Leningrad and I had a meeting with the dean of the Leningrad University Faculty of Psychology. Who did I meet? Dr. Oh, sorry. Okay, anyway, and I met with academicians all over the world. Everyone agrees that there is something wrong in our present educational system, that is, it leaves spiritual content, spiritual education out. And because we are giving material education without any emphasis on spiritual education, nowhere in the world are we producing men of character. America is in a crisis, England, India, everywhere. It's just not your country. Therefore, the Isha Upanishad says one must cultivate spiritual education and material education side by side.

Yes, spiritual education is very necessary, absolutely. It may be by different ways, by different means, but it's quite necessary. From this point of view, you see, I am atheist and non-believer, but nevertheless my—

I don't think you're an atheist, should I tell you what you are?

My attitude vis-à-vis religion is not rejection. No. Because You are very mature. I'm very pragmatic personality and see that revival of religion in Soviet Union, different creeds, different creeds, has a positive, very positive element, most important for me, that is maybe give spiritual education. That means that people are to follow norms of good behavior. Yeah, you see, my criticism vis-à-vis— not maybe I'm wrong— I'm critical vis-à-vis a religion or a religious prescription where if this very prescription would, you know, if that religious prescription wouldn't stimulate wouldn't dissimulate, dissimulate very active participation of a devotee, of a personality in struggle against sin and bad in this very world. So, religion, religion as a role of religion of moral education, spiritual education of person, very important, but religion is not to draw a person away from the struggle against sin in this world. To only think people are to unite with God, everything will be automatically okay. Actually, and in this very world, many people who, I don't know, maybe they are false religious people, like our leader, Mr. Yeltsin. Who is going and supporting from official dome Orthodox religion and going to church.

He goes to church now?

No, he announced sometimes he comes to church. Okay, I'm not against this, but if you are going to church, you are to follow policy, not to ruin people, and so on and so on. I want to respond.

In the Bhagavad Gita, We have prepared some nice vegetarian meals for you. Would you like to eat it Indian style?

You see sir would be generally difficult for me because— Okay then bring this table here. No no no!

I don't know what means that. Yeah or maybe we can sit here with Prasad Raaval. We can convert that chair into a table if he doesn't mind.

I won't mind. I could say, you know, for me just now—

No, no, no, no, no, we have. I want to respond to what you have just said.

But in India, I'm sorry to say, the overwhelming majority of Indians don't sit on the floor.

No, they sit on dining table.

They sit at dining table. They've become very modern. Well, yes, even very big Swamis for this Ramakrishna Mission, I had a lot of discussions, etc. An interesting discussion, you see, this was in 1987.

This is Sridhar, he's from Moscow, he's a very good Vedic cook.

No, I shall try, I shall evaluate, is it real Indian food or?

It is not only Indian food, it is, this food has Special. Now I want to respond to what you were saying. No, you please eat at the same time.

But one I shall only, I shall take this and you will—

If you don't mind, I just took 2 hours away ago, I take once a day mainly. I will also have— No, no.

So I would not be able to take much, only very few.

Okay, make half of it.

Because— No, no, no, no, just what we shall do, we shall see. In this way. It's too much.

So, bring, attempt to reduce it by half, everything.

And then we will— That's a very big sin in our days, to throw away food. Yes. When so many people are hungry. Yeah. And then— Totally, for me, I never throw anything away.

No, no, you are— No, that's okay.

Too much, too much. Okay. Itā karaṣo? Karaṣo. Noy torab noga.

We will also pack and give you some to take for your wife. Ah.

Is this really like prasad?

Yes, it is real prasad, original prasad, not like.

Okay. Please.

After you eat, we'll take you around. Kṛṣṇa in the Bhāgavad-gītā does not say that one should practice religion and become a lazy man in society. If you, if you read the Bhagavad Gita, you will see that Arjuna was hesitant in participating in the Battle of Kurukshetra. He was giving so many reasons why he as a Kshatriya should abstain from his duty. Krishna told him, you have certain duties because you're born in the warrior class, Kshatriya class. Hence you have to engage in this battle, but the difference is engage in this battle for my pleasure rather than for your pleasure. And then Arjuna engaged in the battle. So we in Krishna consciousness do not encourage people to become lazy people. We don't let anybody even stay in our temples who doesn't work 8 hours a day. Not very good. Our spiritual master said, Prabhupada said, this is not a free hotel for sleeping and eating. So all our devotees get up 3:30 every morning, they follow a spiritual program till 8:30, then in the daytime they go and distribute books. Some of our members work on jobs, like he's a scientist, you know, and other people. And then in the evening they come back again. And we don't kill animals, we don't smoke, we don't drink. In your country, when people can't get cigarettes, they take a big procession to Red Square. But we don't have that problem. People have no money to eat, but they must buy vodka, you know. Like in India, the money—

no money to eat in villages, but they must buy But, uh, how many, how many people, how many persons are living here and probably don't doing secular work?

Yeah, yeah, we have about 120, 130 people living full-time. If we had another building like this, we could fill it up in one week.

But it is necessary to have, you know, about 100 persons who will, who's work to What do they do? They mainly selling books?

No, we will tell you what. What work?

What kind of work do they do?

They do so much work, and in the night when they go to sleep, they just lie down on the bed and they fall asleep. Okay, but what work? What kind of work? Yes, they, some of them are cooking, some of them are cleaning the temple. Ah. Some of them are going on the streets from house to house telling people about God. Ah, yes, I understand. How many people live in Moscow? How many? Etamaya wapras. What is Moscow? 10 million. Moscow's population is 10 million. Even more.

With suburbs it is about 12 million. Okay.

So 12 million people have to be woken up to God consciousness. Yes. You think 100 people are enough? No. Not enough.

Oh, that you have put in answer. What do they do?

I am saying, they go house to house, they go from morning to night telling people, to rectify their life. We tell people.

But what is the experience? Do when a member of Krishna Consciousness community is coming, Kṛṣṇaite is coming, how people react?

In society?

In society. When he is approaching somebody not known, what is the reaction or some experience, some style?

I find, because you see I have travelled all over the world, I work in America, Canada, India, Russia, and Africa. And I find the people of your country very respectful to religious people. Many times when I travel, they don't even look at my passport. They don't even look at the visa, many times. And people are very— even when I travel in plane, we give prasad to pilots, air hostesses. They take it with pleasure. No hesitancy at all. The Americans are more puffed up, more proud. You know, if you go in America and offer someone prasadam on the airplane, they'll think, "Oh, maybe there's poison inside." But the Russians are by and large more pure-hearted. So in my analysis, communism was a blessing and a curse. It was a curse in that it kept people away from God. It was a blessing in that It prevented the Russians from becoming corrupted in character like the Westerners have become. Unfortunately, there are too many people. Now it's happening. But not like the West.

Certain social layers of society were very corrupted, starting with our leader, late Comrade Brezhnev, and his family is the most corrupted, maybe most corrupted political family in the world.

You mean, yeah, the whole family?

The whole family. It is a police secret, everybody knows.

Well—

By the way, Professor, I wanted to put you a question. Maybe you know that nowadays a lot of scientists, they come to the conclusion that this Darwin's theory of evolution is wrong. For example, there were several articles in journals of Professor Trusnikov, and in his articles Professor Trusnikov proves very, very scientifically, very logically, that Darwin's theory of evolution is illogical, has a lot of mistakes, and in principle they cannot explain the origins of life. The Stanford Institute also makes the same researches. And from this point of view, what is your position? Maybe you have some doubts, what is the origin of life?

You see, I am not natural scientist, so it is very difficult for me. I have no my own still exists. He is not the right person. I mean, to my mind, you know, what is very sort of contradictory to real science, to make some portion of science or some theory, scientific theory, an absolute. So from this point of view, Darwin's theory was invented in the middle of the 19th century. I'm absolutely convinced what I have read, etc. Just maybe some framework, etc., of Darwin's theory, the evolution, species, etc. This was proved later, proved by some research of zoologists, etc. But I'm sure I agree that Darwin's theory, that is nothing with the origin of life. Origin of life, how life was originated, how it was developed in early stages, it is not unknown. Religious people say, "It begins at the creation of God." Non-religious people, they don't agree with these people, but so far it was not explained. So far, there are many basic factors in the life of our globe from the beginning which is not yet explained. Maybe it would never be explained in psychology. But it doesn't mean that theory of Darwin is wrong. Theory of Darwin has explained many phenomena of development of life, but it couldn't to explain everything, first of all, origin. But I never demand from a theory, from a theory, from a theory to explain everything. I don't believe there's a funny thing in Hegel's theory of absolute truth, absolute truth in sense. We can have a discussion on this in another Every new generation knows it. The science is developing and every theory is being changed, added, or dismantled every minute. Yes, sir.

Because the Vedas explain there are two types of knowledge: relative knowledge, absolute knowledge. Absolute knowledge doesn't change with the passage of time, but relative knowledge which comes from scientists, philosophers, academics, and politicians, it changed. Like, just like all the laws which were passed previously by communist government are now being changed by the new government. So therefore, we believe in absolute knowledge and not, uh, relative knowledge. This is Dr. Kitoski, a professor. Maybe it's the next week when I come, I may want to meet Dr. Bernard Lehman also. If you, if you, you may be seen.

No, today telephone to him from— telephone did not answer, but maybe he went out for dash. Telephone him today? Yes, I have telephone, no answer during lunchtime, but it doesn't mean— no, maybe he's in sanatorium somewhere I don't know, but he came from France. It was about 10th or 12th of June. And after I had a telephone talk with him about 16th time, something like about, I shall say, exactly 20th of this month before I went for UK.

Well, we hope that we'll be able to see you on a regular basis. We feel you're a very intelligent gentleman.

Not very much interest for you to see me on the record.

Whenever, whenever we feel that, we feel that you encouraged Prabhupāda by the dialogue you had with Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda was very happy about his meeting with you, and he spoke about it many times. He mentioned your name. Yeah, he mentioned your name in many of his lectures. In my meeting with Dr. Kitosky, this starts So you're very—

actually, very unexpectedly I walked direct into Krishna Consciousness.

Yes, yes, yes. So that is why I said you're not an atheist. You are in the core of your heart a devotee of the Lord. But because— I'm not a member of our movement. No. But because you lived in, you grew up in an environment where the word atheism was very much propagated. Everyone likes it. Thank you, Devī Mahāprabhu.

You are welcome. Yes, yes. The reason was very much— You grew up in that atmosphere. You were even imposed.

Yes, because I know that if people were God conscious, if they were going to church, they would not get promotions, and the Kṛṣṇa devotee was keeping list of everyone going to church. When I came in '90s—

No, I don't think to church, but to, no, torṭa torṇa. Orthodox Church, not. Orthodox Church, because Orthodox Church at that time was very linked with government. I don't think so, but other religions were alien to old Russia, like your movement, it was very much suspected.

In '76, when I was walking, wherever I would go, they would be following me, behind me.

Oh yes, I believe.

And I knew when they were behind me. You didn't try this sweet?

I not yet. Yes, yes, yes.

Sometimes you can even bring your wife here because we have nice cultural activities here also. This is not much of oil.

But you speak in common. The traditional, traditional, Mithai offered like Prasad. I don't like very much because too much oil.

Bhīnāśaphoṭa. I don't use any oil at all.

Especially with Sikhs. Oh, their prasād is very heavy, very difficult to consume. When I was under Amritsar also, I was offered, but it was such a— it was painful because difficult to consume, very heavy, very much of oil.

Our prasād is much lighter.

Well, I don't take any oil at all, so that's the—

Well, but the ghee, you consume it before?

I don't take even a drop of ghee.

Neither ghee nor oil? How can you survive? Because balanced diet is to take proteins and some fat.

Well, I'm surviving by God's grace.

Oh, see, but vegetarian food is a good one. In fact, we, with my wife, we have become nearly vegetarian. Vegan because we— no, we're not vegetarians as such, but in practice. But in practice, for the last months, I haven't consumed in my house— only vegetables, vegetables, milk products we take. Protein, carbs? Yes, protein. Very rarely, very rarely.

Yet, it's very interesting.

And I don't do— I pick up— when I was younger, yes, strong, etc., meat was was necessary, but not now. But meat is not necessary for health. Yes, I—

In fact, many Americans—

So, meat to be in France, very difficult, because they take too much of meat and— In France? With blood, it's bloody steak.

That means another sign, in the core of your heart you're a devotee. You don't like cruelty on animals. That is another sign of somebody— because, you know, at the end— You're right, very interesting.

Interesting because no, I'm not a Hindu, you know. You don't have any— Against cow slaughter, etc. But generally, you know, you're right. Sometimes, sometimes you take food, but if you would recollect in that very moment to build up a vision before you of a cow being slaughtered or chicken When you're sold, you can't take more.

If somebody pinches you, if somebody, when you're walking on the road, on the metro, and somebody steps on your feet, you get so angry. And when we slaughter, we say animals have no soul. The Christian doctrine that animals have no soul is completely unfounded. Animals eat, sleep, defend, and mate, just like any human being does. How can you say animals have no soul? And of all the animals, the cow is the most innocent of all animals. You see the cow, the cow gives you milk. The cow eats grass, that's all. In goes grass, out comes milk. There is the stool of the cow, cow dung. It is so pure, it contains antiseptic qualities. It is used for cooking, it is used for medicine purposes. The urine of the cow is used in Ayurvedic medicine. And even after the cow dies, a natural death, the flesh is used for so many useful purposes. So all types of crime, the two most serious crimes in human society today are killing of the innocent cow and killing of the child in the womb in the form of abortion.

Yes, but unfortunately, you know, this abortion, there's some social condition consequences. I agree with you, from humanitarian point of view it is a sin, but what to do?

There is something to do. Like, our members don't have abortions, our members don't eat meat. You use— in the Bhagavad-gītā, Krishna says, I am also sex life that is not contrary to religious principles. Sex life has a purpose. Purpose is you produce children for God. You have sex life under certain scriptural directions. Of course, even if people don't want to follow the highest standard, but at least they can avoid, they can still avoid, you know, abortion, which is taking life away. If there's enough evidence to show how life starts, not when the child comes out of the mother's womb, life starts from the time of conception. Actually, when the child comes out of the mother's womb, he's already 9 months old, but we say now he's 1 day Should you like to wash your hands? We would like to show you around a little bit.

Yes, yes, yes. It is 20 past 5. Yeah. That's because you see, there are some things—

Yes, that's okay. We'll wash the hands and then show you around. Okay.

With pleasure, I shall see you. Yes.