Īśo 12: 2 ways to darkest regions of ignorance | Rus-Split | 19.5.90 | Gopal Krishna Goswami

Om namah bhagavate vasudevaya. Om namah bhagavate vasudevaya. Om namah bhagavate vasudevaya. Om namah bhagavate vasudevaya. So now we are going to discuss the Śrī Īśopaniṣad. I started lecturing On the Śrī Īśopaniṣad in Moscow. So I'm just continuing the lecture series on the Śrī Īśopaniṣad, and we are going to discuss text 12 of the Śrī Īśopaniṣad. So you can read, you can repeat the Sanskrit words after me, and in order to facilitate all of you to chant the shlokas We have written the shloka with Russian transliteration.

Andam.

Andam. Tamaha. Tamaha. Pravishanti. Pravishanti. Ye.

Ye.

Sambhutim. Sambhutim. Upāsate. Upāsate. Tato. Tato. Ruhyā. Ruhyā.

Iva.

Iva.

Te. Te.

Tamo. Tamo. Ya, o, sambhutyam, gataha. It's a lot easier with Russian alphabets on the board. Andam tamaha pravishanti, ye sambhutenu pasate, kato bhuya ivate tamoh. Ya Usambhutyam Lataha. Andam Tamaha Prabishanti. Ye Sambhutem Upasate. Tatobhuya Ivatetamor. Ya Usambhutyam Lataha. Bande ham Śrī Guru Śrī uttāpāda-kamlaṁ Śrī Guruṇvaiṣṇava-nāṣṭhaḥ. Śrī Rūpaṁ sagraja-tam sahāgana-rādhunā tam vittam tam sajevam. Sadveṭham subhadūtam parijana-saītam Kṛṣṇa-cetanya-devaṁ. Śrī Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa-paṇḍaṇa-sahāgana-lalitā Śrī Viśākhāna-tam śaḥ. Jai Śrī Kṛṣṇa-cetanya-prabhu-nityānanda Śrī Advaita-gadādhārṣivacaryagor maktavillā. Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare. Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. Śrī Īśopaniṣad contains 18 verses in total. And the Īśopaniṣad was also compiled by Vyāsadeva. There are 108 Īśopaniṣads, of which the principal is Śrī Īśopaniṣad. So in this Śrī Īśopaniṣad Vyasadeva has very nicely established Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, as a person who is the cause of all causes.

In the verse prior to this, it has also been stated that those who follow the path of darkness will obtain one result, and those who take the path of knowledge will obtain another result. It is only logical to expect that based on what we do, we shall reap accordingly. Now in this mantra 12, 2 very interesting concepts are being presented. One is that the worship of demigods is described to be due to ignorance, and worse than the demigods are those who consider God to be impersonal. So these are the 2 main points that we shall be discussing today: the worship of demigods and the foolishness of thinking God is without a form.

Of course, In your country, you don't have much confusion on the demigod issue.

In countries like India, there is great confusion where people think demigods and Kṛṣṇa, Supreme Lord, are all on the same level. But still, since you are trying to study the Vedic culture, since you are trying to understand the Vedas and the Śrī-Īśā-pañiṣads, you must know clearly the position of demigods so that in future you can convince others about it. In the Bhāgavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa says, Nāme vidu sūra-ganahā pravavam nā-mahāśayaḥ. Aham ādiri-deva nā-mahāśrī-nām ca sarvaśahāḥ. Neither the demigods nor the great sages know Me. Why? Because I am the source of the demigods and the great sages.

So the demigods are empowered administrators of the Lord.

Just like in your country you have the president, and to run the country the president has many assistants who may be called ministers. Similarly, Krishna also has a group helping him to run the planet, the whole universe, and those who are helping him are known as demigods. Krishna has a cabinet which has 33 million ministers in it, and these are known as the demigods. Now, demigods are also part and parcel of the Lord's body. Now, what some of you may say, since the demigods are also part and parcel of the Lord's body, What difference does it make whether you worship the demigods or Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord? It does make a difference. Just like, for example, my hand, my leg, my ears, my eyes, my nose, these are all parts of my body. But if I put my food in my nose, will it go into my stomach? If you put your nice prasad, pakoras and samosas in your ears, will it enter the stomach? Ram-nir. Now, I will argue and say the ears and the nose are also parts of your body. So what difference does it make in which part you put? So, but it does make a difference, isn't it? Only if you put food in the mouth will it enter the stomach. Not in the nose, not in the ears, not in the eyes. So similarly, thou, the demigods are part and parcel of the Lord's body. Unless you worship the Lord directly, you cannot please him. Therefore, Krishna is telling us again and again, worship me directly, not the demigods. Some people think any path of religion can be adopted and the end result is going to be the same.

How can this be true? In your country, the plane fares and the train fares are the cheapest in the world, but that doesn't mean that if you buy a ticket from Sukhumi to Tbilisi, with that ticket you can go to Tashkent or Siberia. So it is obvious that Based on where the ticket is purchased for, that is where you can travel. So yanti deva-vrata-devan-pṛthinyanti pṛthir-bhataḥ yanti bhūtādi-bhūtejā yanti madhugīṇa-prīmaḥ. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhāgavad-gītā: Those who worship demigods will go to demigods. Those who worship Me will come to Me. And those who worship ghosts and spirits will go to ghosts and spirits. So Kṛṣṇa is sambhūtim. Sambhūtim means He is completely independent. But the demigods are not independent. Just like whatever power the ministers in your country may have, they are deriving that power just from the president of the country. Similarly, whatever the demigods are giving, that offering, benediction is actually coming from Kṛṣṇa.

Why do people worship the demigods? Why do they?

Because generally, kameṣṭher teṣṭher hita-jñāna-prapadente nyaḍeṣvataḥ. Those are material desires.

They want quick results.

And because they want quick results, they go to the demigods. Kṛṣṇa, when He sees that this devotee is approaching Me with sincerity, He doesn't allow him to fulfill his material desires. But the demigods, they are not so concerned about this. If you worship the demigods, then they give you benediction. Therefore the Bhāgavad-gītā says that those who have material desires, They go to the demigods, and they go to the demigods thinking that they will get some quick result. So only those who have a strong desire for sense gratification, they worship the demigods for the satisfaction of temporary problems. Just like if you want to do something bad, you won't go to your mother or father because you know they care for you, they will not let you do something bad. But if you go to a friend and say, Give me 10 rubles, I want to buy a bottle of vodka. He'll give you. But if you, if you have very strict mother and father, they will not let you do anything bad. So similarly, Kṛṣṇa, when He sees that devotee is sincere, He does not let him do something that is wrong. But the demigods, they don't care. They are ready to give you temporary benediction. Of course, the demigods may give benediction, but ultimately they want you to go to Kṛṣṇa also. So the worshipers of the demigods can travel to the planet of the demigods.

Itakāra.

But they cannot travel to the planet of the Supreme Lord. Prabhupāda in the purport says how modern scientists, they are planning to travel to outer space with these modern vehicles, rockets.

So one can reach these outer planets either by spacecraft, mystic powers, or demigod worship. Through spacecrafts we are trying, trying. So far the success is hardly success, but we are making a big noise about it in society. And if we follow the process of demigod worship and worship the demigods with faith, then we can at least go to their planets. Mystic power is not possible in this age. It is not possible for somebody to do austerity to the extent of getting mystic power so that he can travel to different planets. But the real issue is that even if you do go to these other planets, life in these other planets is only temporary. It's not permanent in any case. If you have a choice, suppose you're buying a house. I see that in Sukhumi there are many private houses. So suppose you're buying a house and one house you're getting, it will only last for a short time. Another house is permanent, it will last for a longer time. Naturally, if you are asked, "Which house do you want?" You will say, "I want the house that will last longer." So all these other planets are temporary. What is the use of going to these planets?

Kṛṣṇa Himself says in the Bhāgavad-gītā, arbhramā-bhuvanā-loka-panār-āvitana-rājuna-māma-pitṛ-dvakaunteya-panā-dhyanmānā-vidyate. In the 8th chapter of Bhāgavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa says, "From the topmost planet to the bottommost planet, all are places of misery where repeated birth and death is taking place." So what is the value of going to these different planets? So the Śrī Īśvāpānishaḍa is telling us, we should come towards worship of the Lord Kṛṣṇa. Because oṁ punaṁ adha punaṁ idaṁ. Because He is complete in all respects. So humanity's problems cannot be solved by going to the moon. Just like there are those scientists, there are some scientists in America who are now telling the people that very soon we are going to start producing medicines in outer space, and those medicines produced in outer space will be able to cure cancer. They have failed to cure the diseases with medicines from this planet.

Now they are giving people a post-dated check.

We will produce medicines in outer space.

Post-dated check means you have the check in your hand now, but you cannot cash it for 20 years.

Suppose I go to Aeroflot, tell them, give me a plane ticket.

But I— here's my check. But you can cash the check after 10 years. Will they give me a ticket? So Prabhupāda used to say, this is what the scientists are doing to us. They are saying, you please give us as much money as we need, and we promise you one day you will not have to die or get old or get diseased. I remember I was in school when the first Russian Sputnik went up. In the early '50s. And after the Russian Sputnik went up, the whole world was so happy that the Russian scientists said, "Now they will be able to conquer over most of mankind's problems." And the American scientists are always saying the same thing also. So this is post-dated checks. You give me the money today, but I will give you the result after 20, 30 years. So if one has real knowledge, then one doesn't worship demigods. Now does it mean that because you are not worshipping demigods and only Kṛṣṇa, demigods will be unhappy at you? Is the son unhappy when everybody is glorifying his father? When you water the root of the tree, are the other branches and leaves, are they starving? When you put food in the stomach, are the different parts of the body feeling weak? No! In fact, if you don't feed the stomach, they will feel weak. Just like Prabhupāda used to give a story, He used to say that once the different parts of the body, they were all saying, "Why is it that so much attention is being given to the stomach? All the food, all the nice cakes, kachoris, everything we see, it all goes in the stomach. Nothing comes to the hand or the leg or the eyes." So they decided they will go on strike against the stomach.

Just like modern society is on strike against God. They are on strike against Bhoga because they may even accept Bhoga in name, but not in practice. Everyone will very proudly say, I'm a Christian, I'm a Russian Orthodox, I'm a Hindu, I'm a Muslim. But when it comes to real religion, they don't want any— they don't want to do anything with it. So we can say that modern society is virtually on strike against God all over the world, not just in your country. Just like in America, in America, in every dollar bill they write, in every $100 bill they write, In God We Trust. Just like in your ruble notes, they have pictures of Lenin and what do they write? Okay, so just like in your 100 ruble note, there's a slogan, "Workers of all the world unite." Similarly, the $100 bill of America, there's a slogan written on it, "In God we trust." It is there on every dollar, $100 bill, "In God we trust." So if they trust in God, why are they doing everything the opposite of what God is saying? If they trust in God, why do they have thousands of slaughterhouses in the whole country? If they trust in God, why are they encouraging everything that God says don't do? So they don't trust in God, but they will say in public, "In God we trust." Similarly, even in India, they don't trust in God. They may say they are religious, but that is also just artificial, just sentimental. Sentimental because they are doing things without understanding how it should be done. So we can safely conclude that the whole world society is on strike against God. So the different parts of the body decided they are going to go on strike against the stomach, and the leg said, "I am not going to walk to the kitchen." The eye said, "Whenever some nice food comes, I am just going to close my eyes." So anyway, they all went on strike and they said, "No food for the stomach." The mouth said, "I am not going to open my mouth when there is some food." So after a few days, what happened? What happened? Anybody can guess? All the parts of the body became weak. They all became weak. The hand became weak, the leg became weak, the head became weak. They all, they couldn't even move. So then they all had the meeting again to find out what's the problem. Why have they all become weak? And then the intelligence said, of course you became weak. Because you were not feeding the stomach. If you don't feed the stomach, you'll obviously become weak. If you don't feed the stomach, then all the parts of the body will automatically not have any strength. So unless we feed Kṛṣṇa, naturally we will not be— we cannot have strength. So worshipping demigods is not necessary if you're worshipping the stomach, Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda gives an example. He said, just because you don't bribe that government, does not mean you don't respect the government. So we don't bribe the demigods by worshiping them, but this doesn't mean that we don't respect the demigods. We respect them as very elevated devotees of the Lord. So, um, demigod worship is not being encouraged in the scriptures, but demigod worship is there in order to gradually elevate the living entity towards perfection. Just like if somebody is a very heavy a smoker of cigarettes or a very big drunkard, then what do they tell him? They say, okay, now instead of smoking 40 cigarettes a day, you come down to 20 cigarettes a day. And from 20 cigarettes, you come down to 10 cigarettes a day. And if somebody is a big drunkard of liquor, they say, okay, instead of half a bottle a day, now drink a little less, slowly, slowly bring it down. So demigods are worshipped is similar in the sense You start by starting to worship the demigods. You can gradually go towards the Supreme. But if you can go directly to the Supreme, then there is no need to go to demigods. Just like if you want to touch your nose, you can touch your nose, you can touch your nose directly, or you can touch your nose by taking the hand around the head and trying to touch the nose. So if you're trying to take your hand around your head to touch the nose, Only a yogi can do that exercise. So, so if you can touch your nose directly, it is foolishness to touch, take your hand around the head to touch it. Similarly, when you, if you can take a lift and go on top of a 100-story building, then why should you go up the staircase? So the problems of life cannot be solved by going to the moon or the sun planet or any of the other planets. Problems of life can be solved by going to the spiritual planet of Kṛṣṇa. That is the only planet which will never get dissolved. Now another point that Prabhupāda's— the other point that's made in this verse is worse than the demigods is the position of the impersonalist. At least the demigods, at least the demigod worshipers acknowledge that God has a form. Just like if the citizens of your country acknowledge If a citizen acknowledges, yes, at least there is a government, now that is better than somebody who says there is no government in this country. Now the impersonalists are very dangerous. They are known in Sanskrit as what? Mayavadis. Why are they, why are they known as Mayavadis? The Mayavadis, they are known as Mayavadis because they think when God comes to this world, he becomes under the influence of Maya. They think that God is not beyond māyā but under the control of māyā. If God comes under the control of māyā, then how can you by surrendering to God overcome māyā? Isn't this logical, vāprosa? If God comes under the influence of māyā, if māyā is superior to God, then how can, then why read Bhāgavad-gītā? Chaitanya Mahāprabhu, he converted thousands of māyāvādīs to the path of personalism. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "Please stay away from Māyāvādīs because their philosophy is poison." So we will discuss the Māyāvādī philosophy. God is no form. Every page of Bhāgavad-gītā it is said, Śrī Bhāgvan uvācā, the Supreme Lord is speaking. But the Māyāvādīs say God is no form. Just like There was very famous president philosopher of India, Dr. S. Radhakrishna. You must have heard of him. He was also ambassador to your country, and when he was ambassador to your country, he gave a copy of his edition of the Bhagavad-gītā to Stalin. He wrote in his autobiography that I have given the Bhagavad-gītā to Stalin. But that Bhagavad-gītā was translated by Radhakrishna, and Radhakrishna in his translation has said God is no form. Prabhupada used to say that there was once a miserly man, and that miserly man was getting eggs from the chicken. So he said, I get these eggs from the chicken, I have to spend money in feeding the chicken. Can't I do something by which I don't have to feed the chicken and I'll still get the eggs? So a friend of his said, no problem, just cut off the neck of the chicken and then you don't have to feed the chicken and you still get the eggs. So he cut the neck off of the chicken. Then did the eggs come? No. So you want to remove Kṛṣṇa from Bhāgavad-gītā? Then show if your Gītā will make one devotee. Your Bhāgavad-gītā will not make one devotee. How is it that Prabhupāda's translation of Gītā is making priyādhanaīs all over the world? Why? Because Prabhupāda has presented the truth in a pure manner. Prabhupāda said if a man is potent and if he has sex life, there will be procreation. So similarly, if the guru is potent, if one is preaching according to Kṛṣṇa's desire, then it will have effectiveness. Therefore, we must understand that if we don't, if we accept Kṛṣṇa's teachings exactly in the pure manner, then it will have effect. So the impersonalists, they want to remove Kṛṣṇa's position. 4 months ago, I was giving a lecture series on the Bhāgavad-gītā in Bombay. I gave a lecture series on Bhāgavad-gītā chapters 1 to, chapters 2 to 18. And at the same time, there were two very prominent Mayavadis also giving lectures on the Gītā. So I sent two devotees to go and listen to their lectures and to see what they say. So they told me, one of them in his whole lecture did not use the word Kṛṣṇa even once. And he's lecturing on the Bhāgavad-gītā. He just went on saying, "Hee hee hee hee hee hee hee." And the other person, also very famous speaker, he mentioned only once Krishna's name in the whole lecture. If somebody calls you, "Te, te, te, te, te," how will you feel? If somebody says, "Hey, He-Man, come here." If somebody forgets your name and tells you, "What is your name?" How offended you feel, isn't it? If somebody calls you in an impersonal way, you feel so offended. Don't you tell him, "Don't you know my name?" So those who think that God— okay, one aspect of impersonalism, they say that God has no form. Another aspect of impersonalism is they say that when God comes into this earthly planet, he becomes like you and me. They say we just like when Krishna came on this planet. Krishna came on this earthly planet 5,000 years ago in Vrindavan. So they say when Krishna comes, he becomes like one of us. He doesn't remain Supreme. Because they are trying to measure Kṛṣṇa with their own material senses. Just like that Dr. Frog, he was in the vast Indian Ocean. He was trying to measure the length and breadth of this ocean by, by pumping his belly and seeing how many times the size of his belly is the Indian Ocean. And he was pumping it so deeply that eventually he burst and he died. So the impersonal, they cannot understand God with the limited senses. Therefore, when they're trying to understand God with the limited senses, they stand defeated. And but instead they say God, when he comes to the early planet, he becomes like us. The impersonalist say that everyone is God. Thee Bhoga, I'm Bhoga, you Bhoga, everyone Bhoga. So they say everyone is Bhoga. I'm giving you the different arguments of the impersonalist so you know how to recognize an impersonalist. And you know how to defeat an impersonalist. So they say, why you worshiping the Lord? You are God, I'm God, we're all God. So why worship God? In India, you heard of the River Ganga? Yeah, River Ganges is a sacred river, isn't it? Yes or no? So in India, they worship Mother Ganges with water from the River Ganges. Ei, I take the water from the River Ganges and offer it back to the Ganges. So The impersonalist say, "You are God, I am God. Why worship God?" Why not? We are gods, but we are tiny gods, mini gods, kroṣṇa-bhoga, tiny bhogas. Because there are many gods, Īśvara, Parma, Kṛṣṇa, Saccidānanda-vigraha, anādirādir-govindā-sarvakaṇakaṇaṁ. He is the cause of all causes, just like In a house you may say the husband is the boss, or in some cases you may say the wife is a god. And the country, the president or the prime minister, the king is our god, is like a tiny god controller. And in the upper planets, the demigods are the controllers, but everyone is a tiny controller. The controller above everyone else is Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Controller. So we must understand that thou, we are all gods. We are all gods. Why? Because God is in our heart as the Paramātmā. Kṛṣṇa is in our heart as the Paramātmā. Therefore it is said the body is temple of the Lord. If Kṛṣṇa was not in the heart as Paramātmā, then you cannot say the body is the temple of the Lord. The Lord is residing in the body as Paramātmā. Therefore this body is temple of the Lord. So, so the point is that we are tiny gods, but the Supreme God is one, and that's Kṛṣṇa. So Then another argument the Māyāvādīs say is, they say the statue of Kṛṣṇa, if it is made of earth, water, earth, or marble, or wood, it is material. Just like in India also, we have like in a Bombay temple, nearly 10,000 people come to visit the temple every day. But there are many people who also think that this statue of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, this Deity of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, it's material. Here is not God. What is the difference between Deity worship and idol worship? Do you understand my question? Am I giving too much philosophy? So the difference between deity worship and idol worship is life. In deity worship there is life, and in idol worship no life. Krishna in Kali Yuga descends in his archa-vigraha form, or Kali Yuga, or the murti or deity form. Presently you just have Gauranithai deities in your temple here on New Namashuralaya. But I am sure one day you will have a big temple here with Sri Sri Rādhā-Govinda Deities. Now those Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Deities, to the mayavadī impersonalist, "Oh, here is just some statue made of marble." But to the devotee, "Here is my God who has senses and is a living entity." Prabhupāda used to give the example of a post box. You, you, I'm sure in your country also you have one general post office in every city, but everybody cannot go to general post office to post his letter. So the post office has positioned post boxes in different parts of the city. So if you post your letter in the post box or in the big post office, it will reach its destination as long as the post box is authorized by the big post office. So similarly, if you post a letter in a post box, if you worship the Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Deities which have been installed by a bona fide guru, then those Deities are non-different from Kṛṣṇa. Depending upon your faith in worshiping the Deities, the Deities will reveal their divya, divine personality to you. If you think here is God, and when you come in front of the Deities, you bow down accepting God as a person, you offer your prasāda, everything to God, then Kṛṣṇa will even speak to you. But if you think, "Oh, here is some statue made of marble or brass. This is just a formality. This is not God. How can God be present in a statue?" Then that God will never speak to you. You and I can only eat with our mouth, but Kṛṣṇa can eat with His eyes and ears. Kṛṣṇa can eat with His eyes and ears because when the devotee offers prasāda to Kṛṣṇa, The devotee chants certain prayers, and just by chanting those prayers, Kṛṣṇa hears those prayers and He eats the prasāda and He accepts the prasāda. So it all depends upon the faith of the devotee. In the śāstras, there are very nice stories to show how God is a person, how God reciprocates based on our efforts. Rūpa Gosvāmī and Sanātan Gosvāmī were two brothers. Who at one time were holding the position of Prime Minister. But then after they met Chaitanya Mahāprabhu, they gave up their kingly, okay, their royal occupation and they retired to Vrindavan to practice renunciation and write volumes of books. Rūpa and Sanātan were living underneath a different tree every day in Vrindavan, every night. Just see the degree of their detachment. At one time they were like the Prime Minister. But then they became so detached that they just would sleep underneath a different tree every night. So Sanatana Gosvāmī, he had his Deity with him and he was offering Him dry chapati and salt every day. One day, Sanatana Gosvāmī would tell his Deity, "I am so fallen, I can only offer You dry chapati and salt, but please accept it." Of course, because Sanatana was offering with love, the Deities would accept his offering. One day, a very beautiful young girl came to Sanatana Gosvāmī, and she brought with her baskets full of fruits, vegetables, everything. "Take this. I have brought this offering for you." So when Rūpa Gosvāmī came to have his lunch, Because Rupa and Sanatana were brothers, so one brother would cook, the other would do spiritual duties. That day when he came for lunch, Rupa Gosvāmī was surprised. He said, "Such a big feast! So many pakoras, samosas, sabjis. Every day we were eating dry chapati and salt. Now such a big feast! How was this possible?" So Sanatana said, "One beautiful young girl had come." And she brought all these offerings. And I accepted it. So Rūpa Gosvāmī said, that beautiful young girl was Rādhārāṇī. She came. Actually Rādhārāṇī tricked Sanātan. She came like a young girl and gave him all these offerings. And Rūpa Gosvāmī got angry that Sanātan took service from Rādhārāṇī. So when Kṛṣṇa sees that the devotee is worshipping Him with faith, Then Kṛṣṇa will even come and speak to you. Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu was very fond of a story called the story of Sakshi Gopal. This was one of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's favorite stories. So this story is very appropriate to the Īśopaniṣad verse that we are discussing today, because this story defeats the impersonalist argument. That the murtis don't have any feelings. You want to hear the whole story, a condensed edition of the story? Whole? In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta this story is very nicely explained. There was once a very rich old man who was going on pilgrimage to different places, and a young Brahmin was helping him. Just like in your country, there are so many holiday resorts. Sukhumi, Odessa, Black Beach, this beach, Black Sea. So in India there are many spiritual places of pilgrimage like Rishikesh, Haridwar, Vrindavan, Dwarka, Badri Ashram, so many even I don't know all of them. So this old man was going on pilgrimage to all these places and he was old man, so one young Brahmin was helping him. The old Brahmin was of course a genuine devotee of Kṛṣṇa. He felt very obliged to this young Brahmin for giving him all this help. So he said, What can I do to repay you for all the help you have given me? The young Brahmin said, Nothing. I just did my duty to you. I am a servant of Kṛṣṇa. So you, you are also devotee of Kṛṣṇa. So I want nothing in return from you. So the old Brahmin said, No, no, no. I must do something in return for you. I have an unmarried daughter. And I will get her married to you. So the young Brahmin said, 'Are you making fun of me? You are such a rich man. I am a Brahmin with no standing in society, no money. You think your relatives will agree to let you marry your daughter with a poor man like me?' Like in India, people are very conservative. The rich will marry the rich. You know, they marry one caste. They are very rigid on this. So the young Brahmin said, 'You are such a rich man. You will get your daughter married to me?' impossible. Nobody will agree. He said, you know that case of Śrī Śrīpāda? That Śrī Śrīpāda, Rukmini was one of the wives of Kṛṣṇa, you know that. But Rukmini's father wanted her to marry Kṛṣṇa. But Rukmini's brother, he did not like Kṛṣṇa. He said, no, marry Rukmini to Śrī Śrīpāda. Śrī Śrīpāda was the enemy of Kṛṣṇa. So the young Brahman said, "Your proposing that you will marry your daughter to me, it is just like Rukmini, her brother wanted her to marry Srisupala, not Kṛṣṇa." So this old Brahmin, when he went back to his house, he told his children, "I met a young Brahmin on the way who helped me go to all the places of pilgrimage, and out of my feeling of gratitude for him, I said, "I will give my daughter in marriage to you." So when the brother and the other members found out that their father has committed their sister in marriage to this poor Brahmin, they said, "Not possible. How can you do that?" So the old man said, "I've given my word." And then the relative, the son said, You deny it. There was nobody who witnessed this, so you can deny this. You say, "I never said this." The young Brahmin was smart. When the old man told him he was going to give his daughter in marriage, he said, "Okay, if you are really serious, you make this promise in front of the Deity of Gopal." So the young Brahmin went to the house of the old Brahmin and said, You remember you promised your daughter in marriage. So now I'm ready. Where's your daughter? The old man's son said, my father never promised my sister in marriage to you. You rascal, you crook, you made my father, you got my father drunk, intoxicated, and he got this promise. He never promised my sister in marriage to you. Get out! And they beat him and threw him out of the house. So the young Brahmin now was very insulted. He said, "It is a question of my honour and now they have thrown me out of the house." So it was a village, so he called a meeting of all the villagers and he said, "This old man promised that he was going to give his daughter in marriage and now his family is denying it." So the whole delegation of the villagers came to the house of the old man. So the whole village came to plead on behalf of the young Brahmin. But the old man completely denied promising his daughter in marriage, and his son said, "Oh, this young Brahmin is a rascal. He tricked my father. He beat up my father, got him to promise my sister. He stole so much money from him." So the young Brahmin's reputation was completely ruined. The village had come supporting him, but after they heard The brother and the father deny everything and say that he had robbed this old man of money. The villagers became against that young Brahmin. So now the young Brahmin was in a big dilemma, big trouble. He said, "Now my whole reputation has been ruined. The whole village is thinking that I'm a crook. Now who can help me?" And he remembered that the old man had given the promise of his daughter in front of the deity of Gopal. So the young Brahmin went to Gopal Deity. He said, "I am your pure devotee. I am your servant. Now, my Lord, my whole reputation has been ruined in this village. Everyone is disrespecting me. You please protect my honor." So the young Brahmin told the Deity of Gopal, "You remember that old man had promised his daughter in marriage in front of You." Now he is denying it because of the pressure of his family. You please come and testify that that old man promised me and I did not do anything wrong. Please, my dear Lord, you please testify and save my honor. So the deity of Gopal said, "How can I come and testify in that village? I cannot walk." So then the Brahman said, "My dear Lord, if you can talk, you can also walk." And then the Deity agreed to come to the village and become a witness to the fact that the old man had promised his daughter in marriage. Then the Deity of Gopal testified and that brahman's honour was saved. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu was very fond of the story of Sakshi Gopal. And in Orissa, India, there's a big temple of this Gopal Deity. Caitanya Mahāprabhu visited it also. So This Brahman had complete faith in the Deity of Gopal, isn't it? And Kṛṣṇa protected his honor. So it all depends upon the faith of the devotee. If the devotee worships the Deity with faith, then the Deities will reciprocate. But if you are thinking here is some statue made of marble or wood, then the statue of marble or wood will remain marble and wood and will never speak to you. So the Iṣa Upaniṣad is very strongly saying those who worship the impersonal Brahman, they are doomed, they are finished, they have no spiritual life. So the way to reach God is through the process of devotional service, and this comes from knowledge and detachment. So we have to accept the shastras properly, not misinterpret the shastras. Sanskrit is such a language that if somebody wants to do word jugglery, he can try and distort the meaning. Therefore, Prabhupāda has presented word by word meaning of every śloka in his books. Why? So nobody can distort it. So unfortunately today there are no religious governments in the world. That means that if you are cheating in the name of religion, the government will not arrest you. If you are cheating in business, you will be arrested. But if you are telling people, "I am God, you are God," Government will not arrest you.

Why?

Because there is no religious head of state. So we must have a religious government that can discriminate between religion and irreligion. So those who pretend that they are incarnations of God, or those who say that God is impersonal, or those who worship the demigods, can never really taste the sweetness of service to God, which is devotional service. So the Īśopaniṣad Through this verse, it's once again directing the sincere spiritual aspirant to worship God in His personal form, recognizing worship of the Lord in the personal form is superior to the other forms. In 1932, Prabhupāda wrote a vyāspujā offering to his guru mahārāja, which Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī very much liked, in which Prabhupāda said: "Absolutely sentient Thou hast proved, impersonal calamity Thou hast removed." Prabhupāda said, "My dear Guru Mahārāja, you have established that Supreme Godhead is a person with senses, and this so-called talk of God being without form, that is bogus. You have destroyed it." Did he get some arguments how to defeat the Māyāvādīs and the demigod worshipers? Okay, you can ask some questions, and then I will ask you how to defeat some statements that I will make.

The question is, she can't understand why in the verse it is said that those who worship demigods will go to the darkest regions of ignorance. But it is said in Bhagavad Gita that those who worship them will go to the planets of demigods. But their planets are not— Good question.

It says In other words, those who worship the demigods, they are— if they keep worshiping the demigods and don't go up towards Kṛṣṇa, then they will keep going down because they will continue the sense enjoyment and they'll gradually go on the path of ignorance. Also in this category, Prabhupāda says in the purport, there are some who claim to be God, they incarnated as God, like just like Sai Baba. Sai Baba. So these people also are very— will be punished very heavily.

It is said that murti can be made from 8 different materials. Stone, you know, clay, and maybe mentioned, and so on. But now the murti are made from— are made from— Plastic. Plastic, yeah.

Fiberglass.

Yeah, like this. And how does it influence on the strength?

No difference, because it depends upon the mentality of the worshipper. In all our ISKCON temples in America, India, everywhere, we have Prabhupada's murti. Those who came, of you who have come to India, must have seen Prabhupada's murti. It looks so real and is made of More than chemicals.

Yeah, but if someone like to worship, you know, the form in his mind, because for him it is difficult to worship real Deity, is it acceptable?

Worship in the mind and not—

Yeah, imagine the form of God.

Yes. You can, Krishna is absolute. So if you are going to imagine the Deity of Krishna always in your mind, Then one day you will be attracted towards Kṛṣṇa's personal form. You have difficulty in accepting Gauṇitāya Deity or Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. If you worship Kṛṣṇa all the time in your mind, ochan kara sho, because Kṛṣṇa says, madmana bhāva mad-bhakto mad-rajimān namaskuru. Always think of Me, bow down to Me, offer your respects to Me. Yes, that mataji in the back.

Why we cannot see? I am booked. He is Bhoga and all of us is Bhoga if Paramātmā present in every one.

You can say, "I am Bhoga, you are Bhoga, everyone is Bhoga." But you must understand we are tiny gods. Supreme Bhoga is Kṛṣṇa, okay? Therefore, after a devotee is initiated, we give him the name dāsa and dāsī. It means servant of the Supreme Bhoga.

You told about president.

Yes.

About president. Can kick away the bad ministers.

Yeah.

But why Kṛṣṇa, they did not kick away Brahmā and Śiva? We have no need in ignorance and in passion. Why only Viṣṇu do that?

Why should Kṛṣṇa kick away Śiva and Brahmā? Why? Lord Śiva and Lord Brahmā are the greatest devotees of Kṛṣṇa. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, if you read, There are hundreds of verses in which Lord Śiva and Lord Brahmā are glorifying Kṛṣṇa. Not one or two, hundreds. So why should Kṛṣṇa kick them? Just like the difference between Lord Śiva and Lord Kṛṣṇa is very small. Just like from milk you can make yogurt, but from yogurt you cannot make milk again. So Lord Śiva cannot become Kṛṣṇa. But Lord Kṛṣṇa, Śiva is very dear to Kṛṣṇa.

Is it true that we should consider guru like Śakti-aviṣavatā?

You should consider the guru as the true representative of Kṛṣṇa, but not as Śakti-aviṣavatā. But some people have said that Prabhupāda was Śakti-aviṣavatā. But the guru should be considered as the pure agent of Kṛṣṇa. Just like I can see with my glasses So the guru is the transplant by media through whom you can see Kṛṣṇa. But if the guru is saying that I am Avatāra or Śaktavaiśṇavatā, then he is dangerous guru. Caitanya, when people would say, tell Caitanya Mahāprabhu, "Are you Supreme Bhoga? Are you Kṛṣṇa?" He would say, "No, no, no, no, no." Okay. How do you say, do you agree?

Agree? Saglaṣne.

Saglaṣne.

It is proved. That Krishna is the Supreme God and Supreme Personality of Godhead, and jiva is a part and parcel of the body of Krishna.

Yeah.

And it is said also that jiva has, you know, a very small lens size, very small size. And at the same time it is said that we are—

Tiny gods.

No, we are similar, looks like. And in this case, which form does Jiva have?

I don't understand the question. Jīvātmā is 1/10,000th of the tip of the hair. What is the base? What is the— Do you understand the question? I'm sorry, I don't understand the exact question. What is the form? The form is not described. The measurement is described. 1/10,000th of the tip of your hair. So small that you can't imagine.

It is said that impersonalist worships impersonal Brahman. But is there any personal Brahman for personalists? Because it is said that Brahman, Brahman and Bhagavan is one.

The impersonally worshiped Brahman, and for the personalist, Brahman, the person is Kṛṣṇa. Because the Brahmajyoti effulgence is coming from the body of Kṛṣṇa. So the personalists go directly to the source. Yes. More questions?

He's saying that as we're growing up spiritually, our, you know, understanding of God is also getting better. Getting better, yes. And he's asking about you, what you understand. Can you say something?

What is my understanding of God or what is my understanding of myself? So now my question is, do you want to know my understanding of myself or my understanding of God?

God.

My understanding of God? My understanding of God is Kṛṣṇa's pure Bhāgavān Svayām. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. And I am fool number one, but if I follow my spiritual master, then one day I'll have complete knowledge.

And who is the source of my Radhasī?

Who were the source of Mayavadī system? That is a good question. Kali-yuga. There were no Mayavadīs before Kali-yuga came. There was no Mayavadī philosophy before Kali-yuga.

To speak about Kṛṣṇa and think about Him, it is good.

Very good. Always think of Kṛṣṇa, bow down to Kṛṣṇa, offer your homage to Kṛṣṇa. Think of nothing but Kṛṣṇa. Just like a greedy man is always thinking how to make profit, Even from his father and mother he will try and make profit. And a lusty man is thinking how to make friends with as many girls as he can. And a devotee is thinking how he can serve Kṛṣṇa.

And if to speak or think of Kṛṣṇa is always good, but why association with sahajiyoga is bad? Because they are also speaking.

No, because the sahajiyas are not real devotees of Kṛṣṇa. They make a show of being religious, but in private life they do everything sinful. Like if you go to Vṛndāvana, India, it is full of sahajiyas. They will chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, they say, "Oh Kṛṣṇa, where are you?" Cry, but privately do everything sinful. Those are called crocodile tears.

Okay.

So now I will ask you some questions. What are the different forms of Māyāvādīs? Or what do the Māyāvādīs say? What are some of the Māyāvādī statements? Kṛṣṇa-vigraha form of the Lord. Example that Prabhupāda used to give to show you that there is no difference between the Deity and Kṛṣṇa. It is one specific example that shows you there is no difference between the Deity of Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa. Anybody here? Kṛṣṇa descends in archa-vṛda. What is an example that shows you that there is no difference between the Deity of Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa? I am just seeing how intelligent the Georgian devotees are. The General Post Office. You remember I said that if you post your letter in a post box that is approved by the General Post Office, then that is the same as posting your letter in the big post office. I made another— I said, Maya, what do you say? Everyone is Krishna, everyone is God, so why worship God? So then I gave one example to defeat that argument.

How? Can I understand that Kṛṣṇa within everything, everything within Kṛṣṇa, and at the same time He is different from everything?

Very easy to understand. I'll give you an example. The sun disk is located in the sun planet. The sun rays are present, are seen everywhere. So the sun is everywhere, but at the same time it is in its own planet. So Kṛṣṇa is everywhere. But also His own original form. In your country, your president is everywhere, but he still has his own original form.

But how He is different from everything, from the sun?

Because everything has its own original identity. Kṛṣṇa is the cause of everything, but everything has its identity. What does it mean?

Everything is His identity.

Everything has its own identity, I'm saying.

Everything.

Ah, everything has its own identity.

Ah, everything.

I misunderstood. Yeah. Okay.

So devotees, priyadhanai, I think I'll end the program now. So that as per present plans, I will do 2 programs tomorrow and 2 programs day after and then leave day after evening.

Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa.