Upadeśāmṛta NOI 6: Consciousness of a Pure Devotee | Rus-Split | 16 May 1990 | Gopal Krishna Goswami

Om Namah Bhagavate Vasudevaya.

Om Namah Bhagavate Vasudevaya.

Om Namah Bhagavate Vasudevaya. Om Namah Bhagavate Vasudevaya. We don't have a board in which we can write the Sanskrit shloka, na?

I don't think so. Do we have a board here?

No?

You think it's a good idea to get— I've been getting devotees to chant the Sanskrit shlokas and they're getting trained up now. So what do the devotees want to hear first? Bhagavad Gita, Isha Upanishad, or Nectar of Instruction? Whichever y'all say. I have 3 scriptures ready.

Nectar of Instruction?

Okay.

You can tell Boris that today I'm going to lecture on the board. I've already lectured.

He doesn't have to tape if he doesn't want. Thank you.

So I thought that today I will discuss the first verse of this, and tomorrow I will resume at the point where I was yesterday, or in Kyiv. Since there are so many newcomers to the program today, I don't think—

I think they will have difficulty following it if I just continue where I left off yesterday.

This book, Nectar of Instruction, has not been translated into the Russian language as yet, but this book is based on Rūpa Gosvāmī's scripture called Śrī Uddaiśvāmitra. This Kṛṣṇa conscious movement is based upon the teachings of Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī. Rūpa Gosvāmī was one of the confidential devotees of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And Rūpa Gosvāmī was specifically instructed, along with his brother Sanātan Gosvāmī, to go to Vrindāvana, study the Vedic scriptures, and summarize them in an easy manner. Narottama dāsa, the great Vaiṣṇava poet, has said, Rūpa rāgunātā padeḥ beya-kuti, kabehāma bujāpāsa yuga-lapiriti. When will that day come When I will be able to understand the transcendental literature left behind by the great Gosvāmīs to develop love of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa.

Can everybody hear in the back also?

Can they hear the Russian? Because the Russian is more important than English. Dā. They can hear.

Okay, good.

So Rūpa Gosvāmī has compiled many books such as Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu, which Prabhupāda has translated in the name of Nectar of Devotion, Lalitā-mādhava and Vidagdā-mādhava. So Prabhupāda has of course translated two of them, Śrī-upadeśamīta, which he called the Nectar of Instruction, and Bhaktirasamitā-sindhu, which he called the Nectar of Devotion. Rūpa Gosvāmī was the leader of the Gosvāmīs. As some of you may know, Rupa Goswami and his brother Sanatan Goswami, they were working like the prime ministers of the most, the richest king that existed about 500 years ago. 500 years ago, the richest country on this planet was not America, was India. And just like in your country you have 15 or 16 republics, In India at that time also there were different republics, and one was the Republic of Bengal. And that Republic of Bengal was the richest republic that existed at that time. It was the richest republic in India, and Rupa Goswami and Sanatana Goswami were the prime ministers of the republic. So you can see they were definitely not ordinary men. They were very, very qualified spiritualists. They could speak all the languages, but at the same time they were very renounced. Without renunciation you cannot gain in life spiritually. In society, Rupa and Sanatan had the most prestigious position. Everybody considered them to be very learned. We must remember that we are talking about a society that had very high moral character, and where the, the mental development of the people was far greater than today. The ruler of the Bengal Republic, he was just fond of hunting. So he would all the time go out hunting, and he would leave the whole administration in the charge of Rupa Gosvāmī and Sanātana Gosvāmī. He had blind trust in them. Rūpa Gosvāmī had the fortune of meeting Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu in Prayāga, which is today known as Allahabad in northern India. And when Rūpa Gosvāmī met Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he said, "Ke āmi?" Please tell me, "Who am I?" And He said, "Who am I, please?" He said, "The whole society thinks." I am very, very learned, but I do not even know who I am. So please tell me who I am. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu then instructed Rūpa Gosvāmī for 10 days nonstop in the science of devotional service. And Rūpa Gosvāmī, later on when he went to Vrindāvana, because he was so attracted to Caitanya Mahāprabhu's philosophy, Then he resigned from the government position and he just went, went to the end, he was sent to Vrindavan to study the Vedic scriptures. Rupa Gosvāmī's resignation was accepted by the Muslim ruler, but Sanatana Gosvāmī, his brother, he was given all the additional duties. But frankly, Sanatana Gosvāmī also had lost all taste. In so-called administration of the state. He had obtained the help of nearly 30 brahmanas, and with the help of the brahmanas, he was studying the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. The king, he became very suspicious. He said, "What has happened to this Sanatana Gosvāmī? He is not attending to the duties of the state for such a long time." So he sent this doctor. To see what was wrong with Sanatana. So that doctor straightaway came to Sanatana's house and broke the door and came right inside. And when he came inside, the doctor saw Sanatana Gosvāmī was there with all the Bhāgavatams in front of him and all the pandits around him. So when the king heard that Sanatana Gosvāmī was bluffing, he was healthy, but he was just giving false medical reports, just like some— I know when I was in college, we didn't want to go to college or something, we would all give medical certificates. So I'm sure you do that in your country too. So when the king heard that Sanatana Gosvami was just giving a false medical certificate, he had him arrested. Eventually, of course, Sanatana Gosvami was able to run away from the prison and he joined Caitanya Mahaprabhu in Banaras. So in this book, Nectar of Instruction, Rūpa Gosvāmī has given us 11 verses only. But if you understand the meaning of these 11 verses, you would have understood all the Vedic scriptures. The Vedic scriptures are so vast that even if you were to read the Vedic scriptures for every minute of your life, by the time you die, you would end up only reading a small fraction.

Prasad Raaval.

So the great sages have very kindly translated the Vedic text for our benefit and given us in summary form so that we can understand the essence of the Vedic scriptures. Big summary is contained in the Bhagavad Gita and Rūpa Gosvāmī has presented the essential points in this Nectar of Instruction. I am not suggesting that you only have to read these 11 verses of Nectar of Instruction and now you don't have to read the other books. But all that I'm emphasizing is the essence of the Vedic scriptures can be understood by understanding the meaning of these 11 verses. So now we shall proceed to discuss these verses. Now there are two things I can do, Atriya. Either I can do a little summary description of the first 6 verses, 6 verses which I've already discussed in Kiivan and in Gyan. So everyone understands, and then go to today's verse. Or I can take one verse and lecture on that for 2 hours. What should I do? Because in the next 4 days I can lecture at 4 verses in complete detail, and so I can summarize the first 5 verses and then go to the 6th.

Am I clear?

Summarize, sir?

Yeah.

So spiritual life is based upon the principle of controlling the mind and senses. Once Prabhupada was giving a lecture at a very big hall in England, and the hall, of course, was not completely crowded. So one man from the audience asked Prabhupada a question. He said, "Swamiji, if your Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so perfect, why isn't this hall completely crowded?" So Prabhupada said, "When you are selling a diamond, Only few will buy. But when you're selling broken cut glass, thousands of fools will buy. So Krishna consciousness is like the diamond, and the real diamond, not imitation diamond. There are many imitation diamonds you can get in other religious organizations, but in Krishna consciousness you'll get the real diamond. Just like in the market, when you want to buy real gold, You have to pay more price in the store than when you want to buy imitation gold. Whether it's Latvia or any republic or India or America, real gold is more expensive than imitation gold. So similarly, Krishna consciousness is more expensive than these so-called other religious philosophies. Prabhupada never cheated anyone and told them, "You can take Krishna consciousness without having to pay the price." Rupa Gosvāmī has said, "My dear friend, if you get a chance to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, please take and don't bargain on the price. Whatever price you have to pay, pay Him." Just like sometimes a person is sick and it's a question of life and death, then the parents are ready to pay any amount of money to save the person's life, isn't it? So similarly, We have to pay a price for getting Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And what is that price? You may be wanting to know whether you have to pay in rubles or currency. Neither in rubles nor in currency. You have to give up sense enjoyment. You have to control the mind and the senses. But you may say, "How can we control the mind and the senses when we are brought up in a society where from the very beginning We are taught sense enjoyment is the goal of life. So, even though we are taught sense gratification is the goal of life, we have realized what? There is no happiness. Prahlad Maharaj, the great devotee, has said, "Punas punah charvita charvanah anah." Simply chewing the chewed, we have already tried every other type of sense enjoyment. And now we want to try another type. So this book, Śrī Urdveśa Mītra, very clearly talks about the importance of controlling the mind and the senses. So Rūpa Gosvāmī starts off the instruction by saying, Vāsyavegam manasa-krodha-vegam jīva-vegam mudāra-pastā-vegam.

That is, in order to succeed in the spiritual life, vegam, Vega means pushings.

So there are various pushings in this body, but all these pushings must be in control. The senses are always pushing for satisfaction. Whether you are in the morning or in the evening or in the night, the senses are saying, "Please give me some more. You have not given. You have starved me so far. Give me some more sense enjoyment." They are always hungry for sense enjoyment. Śrī Rūpa Gosvāmī has said, "Kāmad-dīnam kathīna-palīta-dhūṇī-deṣa." I have been trying to enjoy my senses since time immemorial. No satisfaction. The senses are saying more, more, more. So Rūpa Gosvāmī says, "You must tolerate the different pushings in the body." One is the pushing of the tongue. The tongue, the tongue is always interested in speaking. To keep the tongue idle is not, to keep that tongue locked up is not easy. Even in your country I see in every corner, every one minute there's a public telephone. And next time you walk on the road you can see all these telephones, somebody is speaking on the phone.

So everybody loves to speak, but we do not know what to speak.

We should not use this tongue for material talk which is known as prajalpa.

So Rūpa Gosvāmī says we must control the tongue and use it for the right purpose. But you cannot control the tongue till you give the tongue some alternative engagement. If the mother doesn't want the child to run all over the house and spoil the house, the mother has to give the child some engagement. If the mother just tells the child, "Now please sit down," the child is not going to sit down. But if the mother gives the child a paper and pencil or some toys to play with, with, then the child will get engaged. So we all have to think of some engagement for the senses, and that engagement is possible through the medium of devotional service. How is it that all of you are practicing Krishna consciousness? Some of you may be full-time devotees, some of you may be part-time, some of you may be coming the first time, but the point is, how is it that you are able to follow this chanting of Hare Krishna? And you are able to follow the regulative principles? Obviously, because it is giving you satisfaction. Certainly, for chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, none of you are getting any rubles by way of pocket money. Like, for example, in India and in the other poor countries, the Christians and the Muslims, they come to convert people. But when they come to convert, They give people some economic rights. If you become a Christian, you get in India like ₹5,000 donation. If you become a Muslim, then you get loan for your children, marriage, and so on. You get some economic benefits. But none of you are getting any benefit, isn't it? Not to my knowledge at least. But you're taking to it because Kṛṣṇa consciousness is attractive. Prabhupāda was once giving a lecture in Dallas, America. He said when the Christians went to India, they converted people by bribing. And when the Muslims went to India, they converted people by the sword. But he said, "I am an old man of 70 years. I have come to your country with no money and no sword. Why are you people taking to it?" Because Krishna is all attractive. So Krishna is all attractive. If we approach Krishna on His terms, Then His beauty becomes revealed to us. So in order to appreciate the beauty of Kṛṣṇa and the art of devotional service, we have to learn the philosophy of controlling the mind and senses. So vācchavega means control the tongue, and manasa-krodaha means control the mind and the anger. Controlling the Om, of course, as you know, is very difficult. What about 20th century Latvia, even Arjuna in India 5,000 years ago founded this Advaṇṭa. So what does this mean? Just because Arjuna said, "Cantala imanā kṛṣṇa," now we are all exempted, let the mind do what it wants? No. We should still control the mind, try to control the mind, because unless the mind is controlled, you will not be able to control the senses, not the senses. The mind is the monitor of the senses. Just like in your classroom, unless the leader of the class is controlled, the other students will not be controlled. So the mind must be controlled, and the technique for controlling the mind is to engage the mind in a positive manner. We are going to be discussing this over the next few days, how to control the mind. Krodaha. Krodaha means anger. People get angry, why? Because they don't get what they want. If you are driving a car on the road and somebody overtakes you or somebody drives in a manner you don't like, you get angry, you are ready to shout at him. So people are angry, why? When they do not get their quota of sense enjoyment. We have seen that people are not attached to any one philosophy or any ideology or any leader. They are just attached to sense enjoyment. As long as they can get sense enjoyment, they are happy. And when they can't get sense enjoyment, they are ready to throw the system out. And if they want to change a system, the only reason they want to change a system is because they think the other system will give them an extra quota of sense enjoyment. So all relationships, all agreements, all contracts, all understandings of the modern so-called atheistic godless civilization is based on the principle of how much sense enjoyment can I get. So a devotee should control his anger. He should only become angry when Kṛṣṇa is being insulted or when Kṛṣṇa's work is being checked. Caitanya Mahāprabhu became very angry when he saw that Jagai and Mādhāi had been attacked, isn't it? So you may become angry when they stop your harināma or book distribution. Don't become angry when you don't get a quota or whatever you may want. And he says, "Jīva veda mudāra paśtavega." We must control the speaking power, we must control the eating habits also. If we do not control our eating habits, if we eat without discrimination, then again to develop love of God will be very difficult. Therefore the advice is that one should take only Kṛṣṇa prasāda. Because by eating Kṛṣṇa prasāda, one can purify the mind and the senses and develop finer intelligence or spiritual intelligence. And if the tongue is in control, then the belly and the genitals will also be in control. Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī ṭhākura, the great spiritual master of Śrīla Prabhupāda, he has said the tongue, the belly, the genitals are all in a straight line. So if the tongue is in control, then the belly and the genitals will also be in control. There is so much emphasis on sex life. Why? Because people do not know how to control the genitals. So that science you can learn from through the— by executing the process of devotional service. And how to control the mind and the senses. Then Rūpa Gosvāmī has described how devotional service can be spoiled and how devotional service can be cultivated. Rūpa Gosvāmī says, "Don't eat more than necessary." Because you must get attached to Kṛṣṇa. Everybody is attached to eating. So in the beginning stages it is better to get attached to Kṛṣṇa, to Kṛṣṇa prasāda. And then when you advance in devotional service, then if you want you may control. But if you don't want, you can still continue overeating. As long as you are eating prasāda. Nearly all devotees get into prasāda, get into trance once they start eating prasāda. There used to be, there was a devotee, he used to love prasad and Prabhupada used to joke with him all the time about prasad. His name was Brahmananda. So I remember once I was in New York with him having prasad. At that time he was the temple president and somebody phoned for Brahmananda. So Brahmananda told the person to tell him, "Right now I'm in trance, I can't speak." So devotees get in trance when they start eating Kṛṣṇa prasad. So in the initial stages, you may eat as much prasad as you want, but then at an advanced stage, you may regulate yourself. One should not over-endeavour for mundane things that are difficult to obtain. One should not talk unnecessarily about material things. And one must not follow the spiritual rules and regulations just as a formality. One must follow the rules and regulations for the purpose of making spiritual advancement. And one must not associate with non-devotees except when it is necessary for preaching. And being greedy for mundane achievement, because a man's greed as such, it can never, never, never be satisfied. So Rūpa Gosvāmī, after telling us what is bad for devotional service, he tells us what is good for our spiritual advancement. He says we should be enthusiastic. Enthusiasm is very necessary for spiritual advancement. You see how enthusiastic the materialists are for sense enjoyment. Even in old age they don't want to give up sense enjoyment. Even in old age they want to think as if they're teenagers. And then we must endeavor with full confidence. We must be tolerant, patient. You cannot come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and say, "Where is Kṛṣṇa? I've been chanting for 6 months." I still haven't seen Krishna. And acting according to regulative principles, giving up the association of non-devotees, following in the footsteps of the great spiritual authorities. So if we take advantage, um, of these 6 guidelines, then the opposite will happen of the previous verse. In the previous verse, it was said how you will spoil your devotional service. This verse is saying how your devotional service will become better. After describing the importance of mind and sense control and how your devotional service can get better, how your devotional service can be spoiled, Rūpa Gosvāmī talks about 6 types of loving relationships amongst devotees. Just like people become members of different clubs, bars, and so on, so Prabhupāda says that this ISKCON society has been formed in order to permit The 6 types of rasas that Rūpa Gosvāmī talks about. To give in charity and to accept in charity. You may say, Guruji, what do we as devotees have to give in charity? We hardly make enough rubles for our survival. So what do we have? You give in charity your spiritual knowledge. You give in charity Śrīla Prabhupāda's spiritual books. So the devotee gives in charity and he accepts in charity. They give him charity Śrī Prabhupāda's books and he accepts in charity some donations. Sometimes people tell us on the street, "Why do you have to sell these books? Why don't you give it free?" So our answer is, "We are ready to give you free if you give us free printing and free paper." Another aspect of rāṣa is to reveal your mind to those who are more advanced and to take shelter of them. When you have a serious disease, You don't go in front of the mirror and try to solve it. You try and go to a doctor to solve it. So similarly, when you have some doubts or something else in the mind, take the assistance of those who are more advanced and solve the problem spiritually. So revealing one's mind to those who are more advanced is actually a rasa amongst devotees. Giving in charity, accepting in charity, revealing your mind, inquiring, taking guidance, offering prasāda, and accepting prasāda. These are the 6 rāsās amongst Vaiṣṇavas. So Prabhupāda says this ISKCON society has been formed to help create these 4 types of rāsās amongst devotees. So these 6 rāsās, if they are executed amongst Vaiṣṇavas, they will have a very enthusiastic spiritual community. So Rūpa Gosvāmī has very nicely explained to us how we can reach this stage. Because the Vaiṣṇava is para-duḥkha-duḥkī, he cares for the conditioned souls. And therefore the Vaiṣṇava is anxious to give philosophy by which society can be saved. So Rūpa Gosvāmī then described in text 5, How one should behave with different types of devotees. There are basically three categories of devotees: uttama-adhikārī, kaniṣṭhā-adhikārī, and madhyam-adhikārī. What is the salient feature of the kaniṣṭhā-adhikārī? He is the lowest of the three types. The kaniṣṭhā-adhikārī thinks that God is only in the place of worship, and he thinks, "Oh, my religion is better than your religion," just as the Christians They may think that their religion is better than the Hare Krishnas, but the real test of religion is what? How much love of God does it create in us? So, if we understand the real meaning of religion, then we will not artificially say this religion is better than another religion and so on. Because we don't understand the meaning of religion, we are busy thinking we are right and others are wrong. Therefore, It is very important that we educate society to understand what is real dharma. So the kaneṣṭhārikārī just worships the Lord in that church or that temple, and he thinks that God is only in that church or temple, and he's thinking, "My religion is better than your religion." See, a madhyamādhikārī is looking at four things. He sees the presence of the Lord, he sees the presence of the devotees of the Lord, He sees the innocent who have no knowledge of God, and he sees those who are openly atheistic and who have no attraction towards God. So the Madhya-mādhikārī devotee, he may not be an expert on the scriptures, but he is an expert, or he's fixed on his spiritual conclusion, which is that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He may not know the scriptures in detail, but he knows that Kṛṣṇa, Śrī Bhāgavān The uttama-adhikārī is the best of the three. Uttama-adhikārī sees the presence of the Lord everywhere. He sees everyone as the creation of the Lord. He has a true vision of universal brotherhood. So Rūpa Gosvāmī says how we must deal with these three different types of devotees. So somebody who is chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and is a kaniṣṭhā-adhikārī, we can just mentally honor him.

Why?

He's chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra.. And the madhyamādhikārī devotee, he can also be offered respect. And the madhyamādhikārī devotee is offered respect, and the uttamādhikārī, he should be associated with. One who is keneṣṭhādhikārī, Rūpa Gosvāmī says, offer him respect just mentally. One who is in the madhyamādhikārī level, Rūpa Gosvāmī says, you can associate. But one who is uttamādhikārī, Serve Him like a menial servant and gain full benefit. So Rūpa Gosvāmī is saying, take full advantage of serving these uttama-adhikārī devotees who is fixed in serving the Supreme Lord. Nādamuni was once asked by Vyāsadeva, "How is it that you were able to obtain such a high elevated birth?" Nādamuni explained to him, How in his previous life he had the opportunity of associating with great sages and serving them. And because of that association, his mother was a servant, a maidservant in the house of the great sages. So he would get a chance to associate and to listen to the philosophy that they would teach. He was able to obtain such an elevated birth. Therefore the scriptures have said, sadhu sannas sadhu sannas sarva satsvakaaya. All scriptures say take advantage of saintly association. So are you devotees understanding something? You know, because there are some senior men and some new men. I want to make sure that the new men, everyone, everyone understands. I just want some feedback from y'all.

Okay.

So with this background, we can proceed to text 6, which is the verse that we should discuss today. So I will request Vishnu Das to read the translation and the first paragraph of the purport, committed by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Could you hear in the back? So Rūpa Gosvāmī has brought us to the point where he has told us what type of person we should associate with. Prabhupāda used to say, "A man is known by the company he keeps." If a person is associating with drunkards, he'll become a drunkard. If he's with the gamblers, he's with gamblers. And if he's associating with Hare Krishnas, he may become a Hare Krishna. So the association definitely influences the individual. And here Rūpa Gosvāmī has said, if somebody is kamikṣṭha-adhikārī, he's just chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, then you give him respect with your mind. If somebody is chanting and serving the Deity and following the rules, then you can associate with him. And if somebody is very advanced, automatically then you serve him like a menial servant. So in this verse now, Rūpa Gosvāmī is describing how a pure devotee should be viewed. First of all, Rūpa Gosvāmī says, "Who is a pure devotee?" Rūpa Gosvāmī is saying he does not identify with the body. You cannot be a pure devotee if you are identifying with the body. You may say, "What is the harm in identifying with the body?" Because if you identify with the body, you identify with the senses, you identify with the extensions of the body, and where is the time for identifying with what the soul, bhoota, needs then? I'm sure all of you have gone traveling. Sometimes when you are traveling, you may stay in a hotel. Now when you stay in a hotel, you don't think this hotel is your permanent house. You are going to stay there and you make plans to decorate the hotel. You know you are staying there for a day or two and you are going to leave. So even if something is broken in the hotel, you don't mind. You don't say anything. When you are traveling by train, sometimes, or even by bus, you may meet other passengers and you may travel together for some time. But when the destination comes, you go your way, they go their way. So similarly, this body is just a temporary covering for the soul. What is the major difference between a spiritualist and a materialist? The big difference is a materialist identifies with the body and a spiritualist identifies with the soul. So today There are so many so-called leaders of these so many religious groups, okay. Now if they are not identifying with their body, why are they attached to their tongue, for example? Like the previous Pope of the Vatican, he was so attached to eating meat every day from a calf that unless the meat was served to him from a calf, he would not even eat food. So he's so— first of all, the whole principle of eating meat is sinful. But certainly, till 19, I must get the meat of a calf, of a young baby cow every day. It is so sinful. How can you preach pure religion if you are attached to this meat? So a pure devotee has to be on the spiritual platform. It's not that a pure devotee, because he's on the spiritual platform, he flies in the sky. He, when he's on the earth, He may appear like any ordinary person, but his activities are 24 hours dedicated to serving Kṛṣṇa. So Rūpa Gosvāmī is saying, such a devotee should not be seen from a materialistic point of view. Even if the person is completely ugly, or he may be born in any part of the world, but don't analyze him from a material point. One becomes a pure devotee on the basis of qualification. Not on the basis of birth. Prabhupāda K. gives the example, just like the Ganges water can never be polluted, the pure devotee cannot be polluted. So Rūpa Gosvāmī is emphasizing in this verse the importance of recognizing a pure devotee who does not identify with the body and on the basis of qualification, not on the basis of birth. Śrīdhābhakti, śrīdhābhakti is described as pure devotional service. Prasad RAVAL. So the activity of the soul, or the soul can be satisfied only when it is engaged in genuine devotion to God. Just like in a mundane situation you may have some friendship with people, but your friendship can only be permanent if it is not motivated. If it is motivated friendship, when you don't get what you want, you will give it When Prabhupāda came to India with his Western disciples, a lot of these so-called traditional Vaiṣṇavas were very critical, and they started saying, "Oh, Swāmiji has made these Europeans and Americans into sannyasis and brāhmanas. This is not right." In India there is a temple called the Jagannātha Puri Temple, and then unless you are born in a Hindu family, they don't let you go to that temple. Prasad RAVAL was very much against this so-called wrong representation of religious principles. Catur vāṇa-māyā-sṛṣṭham guṇa-karvā-vibhāgasaḥ. What Kṛṣṇa says, the division of the society into four vāṇas and āśramas is on the base of guṇa, qualification. Just like even in your country, all over the world, unless one has the qualification. He doesn't become a High Court judge or a doctor. So one becomes a Brahmin, a Kshatriya, Vaishya, or Sudra on the basis of qualification. According to the Vedic system, there must be division of the society into four social and spiritual orders.

So Varnashrama basically means the division of the society into four social and spiritual orders. Just like in a body, You know, for a body to be healthy, you must have the head, the hand, the belly, and the leg, isn't it? Similarly, in a society, there must be the Brahman, the Kshatriya, the Vaishya, and the Sudra. The Brahman are compared to the head of the body. Just like in a body, you may have, you may not have the hand, but you can live without the hand. You can live without the leg, you can live without the eyes, you can even live without the liver, isn't it?

We can't live without the heart, without the head, I'm sorry.

So you can't live without the head. So similarly, you can't have a society without the existence of brahmanas. So brahmana means what? Brahmana means one who is versed in the Vedic scriptures, one who is leading a disciplined life.

Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī, the spiritual master of Śrīla Prabhupāda, he was very forcibly preaching that one becomes a brāhmin on the basis of, on the basis of qualification and not on the basis of birth.

So the so-called traditional brāhminas, they had once made a plan to kill him in Calcutta, Bengal, India.

So brāhminas must be there in society. Who knows what the scriptures say, and the Brahman is compared to the head of the society.

Then comes the Kshatriya. Kshatriya is the warrior class. The Kshatriyas are the warrior class, and their business is to protect the citizens, especially the older people and the younger children, and to look after the administration of the state. And in the Vedic days, even the Kshatriya kings would go right in the front of the battle to take part in the battle, not that they would be sitting behind closed doors and send the juniors out to die. These days, in many parts of the world, people are searching for a new style of garment, but if they want to adopt a new style of garment, There's no point in changing from socialism to communism or communism to capitalism, but we should change into, we should adopt the Vedic way of government. Just like in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, you have so many examples of leaders, kshatriya kings who were completely God conscious and they were very concerned about the welfare of the citizens. There's a very nice story of King Vena and King Pritu in the Srimad Bhagavatam. King Vena, of course, all of you will very easily understand because today the leaders all over the world are virtually like King Vena. King Vena was a very, very proud king. He really thought that he is the boss, the controller. He did not want anyone to be worshipped. Just like Hiranyakashipu. Hiranyakashipu was very angry with Prahlad. Why? Because Prahlad only had one son.

He was interested in God, Bhoga.

So King Vena, you will not believe what King Vena did. He stopped all the brahmanas from making their sacrifices. Just like in some parts of the world, the places of worship were converted to other uses. King Vena ordered all offerings to the Supreme Lord to be stopped. And King Vena, he would tell the brahmanas, "You are like prostitutes.

I am maintaining you.

I'm giving you money to eat." And you are saying, "Worship Krishna, worship God. I'm God." In the Vedic system of government, the king would be advised by a group of brahmanas. The Brahmanas who were spiritually qualified, but King Vena would not take any advice. He was arrogant, mean.

So as I said, you can—

King Vena is not a hard character to understand because virtually the leaders in today's planet and today all over the world, they are his followers. They have the same mentality like him. Godless civilization. And King Vena stopped all sacrifices. So King Vena was ultimately cursed to die by the Brahmins. Because of King Vena's godless policies, the whole civilization was beginning to suffer. The earth was not releasing any more food, the trees were not giving any more fruits, the oceans were all turning dry. So the Brahmins could see that the citizens are in so much pain, and unless the leader is God-conscious, The suffering of society will just increase. So then his son King Prithu was made the king. King Prithu was the opposite of his father. King Prithu, when he became the king, there was a big—

just like these days people take rallies, we want freedom, we want this.

So people came in a big rally to his palace when he became the king. So the people came to King Prithu's palace and said, King, it is your duty to give us clothing, place to eat, food to eat. We don't have any of these things. Please give us our basic necessities of life. It is a business of the government to give employment to everybody who wants to work. This is a Vedic government. So King Pritu said, I cannot do anything..

But if you worship the Supreme Lord, then all the necessities of life will be supplied.

So King Prithu told the citizens, please go and glorify Krishna.

And when they glorified the Supreme Lord, then all the necessities of life were supplied.

In the Vedic times, even when the war was fought, the war would be fought on the highest moral principles. Just like the Battle of Kurukshetra. When the Battle of Kurukshetra was fought, the battle was only being fought in the daytime, not in the nighttime, and not when anybody was sleeping. And if the soldier did not have the arms with him, then nobody would attack him. And there was no question of attacking old people or women or children.

This is Vedic society.

Lord Ramachandra was the ruler of the world. And he was God himself. But in the night he would change his dress and go outside people's houses and find out, do they have any complaint? And if there was any complaint, he would rectify it immediately. So the ruler or the head of state must consider it his duty to take the citizens back to Godhead. Therefore, Rupa, therefore King Pritu told all the citizens, "Please chant the names of the Lord." King Rishabhdev was also the king of the planet. He said, "One should not become a king, one should not become a father, one should not become a spiritual master till he can take his dependents, his children, and his disciples back to Godhead." So The Kshatriya, as I told you, is compared to the hands of the body, and the Vaishya is compared to the belly, the stomach. Why? Because Vaishya's business is to take care of the cows, the agriculture, and to do business.

And what do you do with the agriculture that is produced? It goes in the belly.

Therefore, the Vaishya is compared to the stomach in a man's body, and the Sudra is compared to the leg in the body. What does your leg and my leg do?

It carries the whole body.

It serves the whole body. So that's the business of the Sudra, to make him serve the other three varnas. Then there are four ashramas, or that is brahmachari, grihasta, vanaprastha, sannyas. According to the Vedic way of life, brahmachari training should be imparted so that one gets trained up. In the principles of sense control. Then after remaining a brahmachari, if one desires, he may get the permission of the spiritual master and then enter the grihastha ashram. If he can remain a brahmachari, that is the best. But if one can't remain a brahmachari, if one wants to enter into householder ashram, then there are strict guidelines how one can make spiritual advancement. Grihastha grihamedhi. Grihāsta means when one uses the institute of marriage for self-realization. Grihamedhi is when one uses the institute of marriage for sense enjoyment like the animals. Then after remaining in grihāsta life till say the age of 50, one may bring in the process of detachment by taking to the process of— by taking to the Vana Prastha Ashram. In which the husband and wife, they don't have any relationship, but they may travel together to places of pilgrimage. And then is the sannyāsa. Sannyāsa is the position where one has no connection with women and one is totally dedicated to preaching the glories of the Lord. Our Vaiṣṇava sannyāsis are not like the sannyāsis of so-called Rajneesh Ashram, etc. Where sannyāsa title is given, but the people are allowed to mix freely. So the Vedic society must have this division of varṇa and āśrama, and the focal point should be the surrender to Kṛṣṇa. You will always have some people who are in important positions and some people who are not in so important positions. So the Vedic society, the Vedic philosophy recognizes that According to qualification, one may be deemed to be a brahmin, śātya, vaiśya, sūtra. So this explanation is consistent with the explanation that Prabhupāda is offering in this purport of this verse, where Prabhupāda is making the point that one becomes a Gosvāmī on the basis of qualification, one becomes a pure devotee on the basis of qualification, and not on the basis of birth. Prabhupāda says that it is offensive To analyze a Vaiṣṇava from a material angle of vision, "Oh, he is handsome, he is not handsome, he is this, he is that." A Vaiṣṇava should be accepted from a spiritual standard based on spiritual qualification and not from a material angle of vision. Prabhupāda says in the purport that one cannot derive any spiritual benefit if he offends a Vaiṣṇava. Caitanya Mahāprabhu explained this as a mad elephant offense. Just like an elephant may go for a bath, but as soon as it comes out of the bath, if it sits in the ground, its body becomes dirty. So we may chant the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra to accumulate spiritual benefit, but if we commit offenses, especially Vaiṣṇava prasada, offenses to other Vaiṣṇavas, then our spiritual life will be spoiled. So, With this I'll stop and I'll take on questions for half an hour now. Were you all able to understand something or was it too much philosophy? You know, half are old devotees and half are new devotees. So I have to speak something which will cater to both the segments of the audiences.

So, waapros, questions?

I'll take questions for half an hour. Then we will take a break for prasad and then at 4:00, 4:30 we'll start again with Bhagavad-gītā.

If 5-year-old child, you know, begin to teach his parents, you know, and says to them, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." And he was never previously hear about Hare Krishna before. How should we relate to such a child and what does it mean?

It's a 5-year-old child who's telling his parents chant Hare Krishna. Is that the question?

Yeah, he never previously heard about Hare Krishna, but he says Hare Krishna to his parents. What does it mean?

He must have heard it from somebody else, or you think he was a devotee in his last life? He must have heard it from somebody.

Of course, everybody who comes to Krishna consciousness has done devotion in the past.

Just like you see now, all of you are getting attracted to Krishna. Now do you really believe that you have got attracted to Krishna consciousness without any reason?

No.

All of you have done devotional service in the past.

Therefore, now when you were exposed to this process of Krishna consciousness, you got attracted to it.

In other words, all of you have been devotees in the past.

We were transformed.

Da. Yes. Well, one— how one offense creates next offense, etc., etc. And in the end there is this lightning of upper love. And could you explain this?

Me, I've got it English. Uh, if they explain Russian, answer the question in Russian. Your question is how one offense leads to the other offense. Well, Caitanya Mahāprabhu was talking extensively about the mad elephant offense. That is, if you offend another Vaiṣṇava, just on the strength of chanting the Holy Name, then this offense is going to uproot or destroy your devotional service. Your question is one offense leads to another offense automatically. Is that your question?

I have heard such system of explanation of these 10 offenses. They are like, like sex, but I I've heard there is such system, but I do not know exactly how it is.

Well, you see, all these offenses are related to each other. Just like, for example, do all of you know what we are talking about? Do all of you know Ten Offenses? Everybody knows? There are Ten Offenses and chanting the Holy Name? How many people have never heard of Ten Offenses before?

Show of hands. Yeah.

So almost everybody knows. Okay. I just want to know. So bhau janma-karaye yadi śravaṇa-kirtana-kabūtana-pāya kṛṣṇa-pradepṛmadhana. Kṛṣṇa-kavirāja has explained that there must be 10 offenses that we should avoid while chanting the holy names of Kṛṣṇa. Now the question that Jīvagosvāmī dāsa has asked is how one of the offense makes us commit the other 9 offenses. Many of these offenses are interrelated. Just like, for example, the first offense is to blaspheme those who dedicated their life for propagating the holy name of the Lord. Generally, you will do this because of envy in the heart. And envy in the heart means you still have material desires. And if you have material desires, that means anytime you get a chance for them, you will take advantage of it. So you can see how just by blaspheming, and blasphemy is such a disease, once you start criticizing a Vaiṣṇava, you never know where you will stop. In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, there's a story of Ramchandrapuri, how Ramchandrapuri was just criticizing Vaiṣṇavas and eventually he started criticizing Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And then Seventh offense is to commit sins on the strength of chanting. Devotee is thinking, "I'm chanting Hare Krishna, now my sins are going down, so I have a license for committing fresh sins." That is very offensive because Prabhupada used to say that this is the worst of the offenses. A devotee never wants to be a burden on Krishna, never wants to take advantage of Krishna's mercy. Once Rūpa Gosvāmī found out that Sanatana Gosvāmī had accepted some prasādam that a very beautiful young girl had brought who happened to be Rādhārāṇī. Rūpa Gosvāmī was so angry that Sanatana Gosvāmī has taken service from Rādhārāṇī. Sometimes we begin to give our own interpretation to the holy name. That is also offensive because once you start giving your own interpretation to the holy name, once you start underestimating the value of the Holy Name, then you'll underestimate the value of the whole process of devotional service. I don't know if it answers your question exactly, but it does say that how one leads to the other. I was thinking that in the afternoon session I will also discuss, if you all want, one thing that I usually discuss every day is also book distribution and But besides book distribution, I was also going to discuss the similarities between the Vedic philosophy and Christianity, or the teachings of the Bible. When I was in Kyiv, devotees asked me a lot of these questions, and then I gave them a talk on similarities between the Bible and the Vedic philosophy, which, because when you go out on book distribution. I understand a lot of you meet, you know, Christian fanatics, so then you know how to talk to them. We'll do that in the afternoon session.

What is the main reason of deviation from devotional service?

Very good, Ochin Karasova approach. So what's the main reason for deviation from devotional service? The main reason for deviation from devotional service is our weakness in taking the medicine given by the spiritual master and guru parampara. Just like when you are driving a car on the road, if you get distracted into talking or looking somewhere else, then you can have an accident, isn't it? Whenever I was driving with Prabhupada in India or wherever, he would never let the driver talk to anyone. He would say, "Concentrate on the road." road. So similarly, if you concentrate on devotional service, then you can succeed. But if you're going to get distracted, and the nature of the mind and the senses are to be always distracted, then your devotional service will get weakened. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu gave Rūpa Gosvāmī the perfect solution. First, Caitanya Mahāprabhu was connected devotional service to the activities of a Gardener. I see in your country there's a lot of greenery, there's a lot of emphasis upon natural trees and plants and flowers. So I imagine all of you know something about gardening. So a gardener, what does he do? He plants a seed, doesn't he? But will planting a seed make the tree grow automatically? What do you have to do to the seed if you want the seed to grow into a tree? What do you have to What to do? Water it. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said the seed of devotional service, brahmānda-brahmita-kona-bhāgavānudhi-guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāpāya-bhakti-lata-bhī, just like a log of wood, it is being pushed from the top of the mountain by the waves, and by chance the log of wood gets stuck somewhere on the side. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, after going through millions of births and deaths, By chance we get stuck, and what do we get? The seed of bhakti. Now Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that the seed must be watered, and watering process is shravana-kīrtanam. Bhāgavatam gives a very nice example. Bhāgavatam says, just like if somebody is taking a medicine, and he's taking a medicine and he's recovering a little bit, But then if he stops to take the medicine, what will happen? He will get a relapse. So similarly, when you are executing devotional service, if we become a little careless in the rules and regulations, we get a relapse. Chaitanya Mahāprabhu says one must build a fencing around his garden. Just like this house in which we are, isn't there a fencing all around? Like in India, if you go, all land has fencing. Why? Otherwise the animals of the neighboring land will come and eat up your crops. Now, a good gardener, what does he do? A good gardener has scissors, huh? Isn't it? In your country also they have scissors? Okay. The good gardener is always going around every day and seeing if some unwanted weeds are not growing. Because if some unwanted weeds are growing, he cuts it out. Otherwise, the water will get wasted. Similarly, a devotee must see that as soon as these unwanted desires are developing in the heart, he must pull them out. But you can only pull the unwanted desires out if you are taking advantage of the 6 types of rāsās that Rūpa Gosvāmī has advise us to develop. You should be in a position to reveal your mind to those who are more advanced. So the unwanted weeds should be pulled out and we should always keep ourselves in the association of devotees. If you are in the association of devotees and when you are making some mistake, they will correct you. As Vaishnavas, when you see some other devotee making some mistake in spiritual life, don't feel ashamed. In a very nice way tell him, "Prabhu, I think that this is your weakness. Let me help you. Please correct it." You should go and tell him. Just like sometimes devotees when they are doing their japa, if you are doing a japa all alone, even if you fall asleep, nobody will notice you. But if you are doing a japa with other devotees and you are falling asleep, then the devotee can wake you up. So we must be ready to accept the help of other Vaishnavas for our spiritual advancement.

Okay.

So we get distracted because we don't take the medicine properly. All the rules, regulations are there in Prabhupada's books. We have to take it strictly, then we'll get full benefit. You had a question?

It is often, you know, it is often occurs that some initiated devotee devotees, you know, invited non-initiated devotees and say to them that you follow me because in other case I will not give you any recommendation for initiation. You know, it's some kind of pressure. Yeah, because there is no any guru in the Soviet Union and you must follow initiated devotees. Then please follow me. And in other case, and what to do, initiated devotee?

This is a ticklish question, tricky question. An initiated devotee should not misuse his position because he must understand that ultimately Kṛṣṇa is the controller. If I misuse my position today, tomorrow Kṛṣṇa will not let me keep that position. So both the devotee who wants recommendation, and the authority who is initiating, who may be misusing it, both have to understand that Kṛṣṇa is testing both of them. The devotee who is an authority, he has to think, "Kṛṣṇa has given me this position of responsibility. If I don't act in a just manner, then ultimately Kṛṣṇa will smash me." And the devotee, and suppose the devotee is feeling, "Oh, that senior devotee is discriminating against me." He doesn't like me. He hates me. I have done nothing wrong. He must understand that the devotee is always tolerant. Even if somebody is misusing his position, the devotee doesn't give up his faith in Krishna and Guru and shastra. So then, so the junior devotee thinks, "Yes, I am insincere. I must do better." And even if he does not agree, but He must not give up Vaiṣṇava etiquette. He may protest in a nice way, but he should accept the verdict given by the senior Vaiṣṇava, and if he has any complaints, then he may go appeal to the next higher authority, but he must not give up his tolerance. Prabhupāda had spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness to every corner of the world. Prabhupāda single-handedly did more for religion than any other man in humanity. In the last 500 years. But I was with Prabhupāda in his last days and Prabhupāda was telling us, "I have done nothing at all. All I did was follow my spiritual master's instructions, but I didn't do anything." So devotee should always think, "I have done nothing. So if he, even my devotee is not recommending me, okay, I don't deserve it." He must work harder to purify himself. And as I said, he can appeal to other senior Vaiṣṇavas to consider his case. He must have faith that Kṛṣṇa will resolve what is best for him.

The question is, it is stated in Vṛndāvana, there is some park when Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, you know, meet every night, even today. And he's asking why mainly at night, why not every day in Why what? Why at night?

They are meeting.

Yeah, why not in the daytime?

And anybody who goes in the night in that park is in the morning found dead. There have been cases. Nobody is supposed to go to that park. There have been cases where sometimes people have gone and in the morning they've been found dead.

It is said that a Vaiṣṇava is above all classes, of all social classes. But take for example, Arjuna, he was a great Vaiṣṇava and he was a warrior at the same time. And how should we look at these situations? Can we see, for example, Vaiṣṇava as belonging to one of these classes? Which classes? For example, can we see Arjuna as a warrior? Okay, I follow.

So Arjuna, to your question of should we view him as a member of the warrior class, we should understand that the theme of the Bhagavad-gītā is to teach us that we have to do our duty. Short while ago I had explained to you the very concept of our nārśana society. So does not matter which member, which part of the varnasrama you belong to. The important thing is that Krishna must be the central point. So Arjuna, because he belonged to the Kshatriya class, as a Kshatriya he has some natural duties. It is not that the Vedic society teaches us, "Give up your duty and go to the forest." Arjuna wanted to go to the forest, but Krishna told him, "Niyas, you can't do it." You have to do your duty, but do it for my pleasure. So Arjuna is viewed as a member of the warrior class because Arjuna is being presented as a devotee belonging to the saptiya order. And in the saptiya order, it is a duty to take care of the weaker sections of society. More questions?

What is saktiya and why it is not different from devotional service as it's said in Bhagavad Gita?

Real Sankhya philosophy leads to Bhagavad-gītā and Bhakti-yoga. Sankhya philosophy is the analytical study of the difference between matter and spirit. Just like Lord Kāpila, the incarnation of God, he has explained the Sankhya philosophy in the Third Canto of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So real Sankhya philosophy is Bhakti-yoga.

In Prabhupāda's Lamacharya there is a story about Prabhupāda when he look after the bell, every hour bell in the Vrindavan Temple. Yeah, and what is the necessity of this bell? How it is important in devotional service?

I'll tell you. Because I was in charge of the Vrindavan Temple at that time, and I'm still in charge of of the Vrindavan Temple. So I had direct talks with Prabhupāda on the bell issue. I mean the G.B.C., not the president. I was in charge. So in the Vrindavan Temple we had few security guards and in the night very often they would go to sleep. So Prabhupāda would get up in the night and he would— Prabhupāda was a very strict manager, huh? He was very soft But with management, he was very strict. So Prabhupāda would get up in the night and he would say the guards are sleeping. So in order to keep the guards awake, Prabhupāda came up with this very unique idea. He said every hour on the hour they have to ring the bell. If it is 1 o'clock, once. 2 o'clock, twice. 3 o'clock, 3 times. Because if you have to ring the bell every hour, there's no way you can go to sleep. And Prabhupāda, he said, time it. If it was 1 minute plus minus, he would call me next morning, say, "Why last night the guards did not ring the bell in time?" So after Prabhupāda introduced the system of ringing a bell every night, the sleeping of the guards completely So we have this system even in the Bombay Temple now. How many of you have seen Bombay Temple? You saw, Panduraj? Krishna Das, you saw? You've not been to India so far?

Okay. Populs?

No question from the ladies?

Okay. What is the difference? Okay. What is the difference? You involve jati, gotra, and caste. Huh?

Don't waste your time with these questions. It doesn't concern our Vaishnava philosophy. Because our Vaishnava philosophy is kalo sudra-sambhava. We are all born in one caste, sudra. I remember one side, I had gone to see Prabhupāda in Bhubaneswar in Orissa in 1977. So after visiting I drove up from Jagannath Puri to go and have darshan of Lord Jagannath Temple. Now as I told you, they only allow Jagannath Puri darshan to Indians. So they said, "Oh, what is your gotra?" And I at that time didn't know what the hell this gotra business was. So I didn't know it. So they said, "You can't go in." So Prasad Raaval said, "We don't care for his gotra and all that." Anyways.

Other such souls who will not be able ever come back to this world?

Well, if one is very, very sinful, then he's sent to the hellish regions for punishment. But technically, every jīvā is given the chance to go back to the Godhead. But if he doesn't use it properly and becomes sinful, then material nature has to give him the punishment.

About Svayamvara of Lord Padma, and Karna wasn't allowed to take part in this Svayamvara.

Should I tell you something? Basically, you should just stick to questions from Kaurapada's books.

And the question is, the Karna wasn't allowed because of his birth, you know.

Yeah.

And what was it?

It was based on his birth and not on his qualities, because the marriage had to be to someone from the royal family. In the past, the kings and the queens, they would marry of equal order, not try— if you want to Sudra family, then you both, you couldn't marry someone from a higher order. Is any question based on what we discussed this morning for 2 hours?

Yes. Is it true that when we chant mantra, we, you know, we, the 7th generation after Prasadam, before, get some benefit?

If you become a pure devotee due to your execution of devotional service then definitely past and future both will benefit. Just like in your country and in many other countries, if one person becomes a big minister or something, then all his relatives also become quite well off. If somebody becomes one Vaishnava, then he can give benefit to others also.

Living entity is individual, and there is no actually such relation.

But Kṛṣṇa gives a special concession to a devotee. He gives a special treatment to the parents, to the relatives of devotees. So you should try to become a pure devotee. Of course you have to be a pure devotee for this, not just a devotee who is in a very neophyte stage, then you can't get so much benefit. Any, any other questions?

Yeah, and it is a question, uh, how will in one national system, uh, people be differentiated on different values? Because if someone will be born in a poor family, he will not get possibility to read such as, for example, and therefore he will not be able to develop You know, potency, my bhakti.

No, not necessarily. In the Vanashram society, everybody has the opportunity to come to the highest level. It is not that if he is born in a sudra family, he cannot get, he will not have the chance to read the scriptures. Just like in your country, everybody has the opportunity to work hard and become a judge or a doctor, but not everybody will come that far. Any other what, Prasad?

Yes. In your lesson you mentioned the word trance.

Trance.

Yes, trance. And how to distinguish between trance and maybe some kind of sense enjoyment?

Sense enjoyment means when you want to, when your senses want material satisfaction. Trance means that which is for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction. And Kṛṣṇa is very kind. He lets us dovetail things a bit. Prasāda, he lets you dovetail. He lets you— I'll give an example. For example, if you're eating for sense enjoyment, you may eat meat, fish, eggs, or whatever you want. But because eating is necessary, Kṛṣṇa says, "Okay, eat Kṛṣṇa prasāda." So in a way, Kṛṣṇa prasāda, you're eating for your stomach. But still, eating Kṛṣṇa prasāda is transcendental activity because you're doing what Kṛṣṇa wants you to do. Just like you may like to work for 8 hours a day. So you can work for 8 hours a day driving a bus of your Lakṣmīya Transport Corporation, or you could use your driving skills and drive Kṛṣṇa's work for 8 hours a day. So you're satisfying your desire to drive, but because you're linking it to Kṛṣṇa, That is a transcendental activity.

Yes.

You mentioned material enjoyment. Is that what he said?

No, no, no. He's asking, is it material desire to get some knowledge about material world, or it is spiritual desire?

If your desire is to get some material knowledge to prove to the world that Bhoga, God is supreme, then it is okay. But if you want to have material desire knowledge, So that in society people will say, "Look at this man Alexander, he's so learned." Or that you will make more money for more sense enjoyment, then it should be given up. Any other questions?

Before appearance of Kṛṣṇa on the earth planet, did Vṛndāvana— was Vṛndāvana considered a whole place, whole land?

Vṛndāvana was always existing from the beginning of creation. Because Krishna is always manifesting himself again and again and again and again. If Vrindavan was not special, Krishna would not have appeared over there. So very beginning of creation, Vrindavan occupies a special place. Whatever the answer is, it's not going to help you much. But the question before us is how to be in Vrindavan 24 hours? Because Vrindavan means the place Krishna is always remembered. So you can have a Vṛndāvana right here in Latvia, or you may be in Vṛndāvana, India, and you may not— you may be in Latvia. Because you may be in Vṛndāvana, but if you're not thinking of Kṛṣṇa or not thinking of to serve Kṛṣṇa, then you're in Riga. And if you are in Riga or Minsk or Vilnius, but you're constantly thinking, "Haru, how can I serve Kṛṣṇa? How can I do something for Kṛṣṇa's benefit?" when you are in Vṛndāvana. Because Vṛndāvana means the mental state of the living entities. In Vṛndāvana, everyone, right from the coward boys to the gopīs, everyone is just thinking, "How can I serve Kṛṣṇa?" Mother Yāsodha is always thinking, "My Kṛṣṇa may not be cheated by somebody." She was always scared that Kṛṣṇa's friends may trick Him into going to kill some demon and the demon may not cause some damage to Kṛṣṇa. She was always scared that Kṛṣṇa may not swallow some dirt. And the gopīs were always concerned that Kṛṣṇa may not be taken out of Vṛndāvana. The gopīs did not want to lose watching Śrī Kṛṣṇa even for the time it takes for your They accused Lord Brahma of designing the eyes in such a way. So your goal should be to take Vrindavan to every town and village of the Soviet Union. Of course, you are already doing that. I'm just here to encourage you to do that. You are already doing it. So can we take a break now? I think your devotees need a little time to Stretch your legs out. You've been sitting like that for 3 hours nonstop. Is Krishna Das there? Have the devotees, Prasadam, come or no?

Other here?

The other pandits? Where is the president? Usually I start at 1, I stop at 3:34, then stop for 1 hour, then start again. What should I do, Sanathana? No, but we should— I haven't eaten since morning anyway. Are there any more questions? The next section. Any more?

Is it the aim of our Krishna Consciousness movement to create varnasrama dharma system, or it goes, it follows automatically?

No, it is a goal to create varnasrama. And Prabhupada said, 50% of my job is done, 50% is creating this varnasrama. So we're trying to create varnasrama also. I understand you people are getting a farm in Riga. Pranaams, sir. So now, Jagadguru, should I stop now for an hour? No, no. Is Prasad here for the devotees? Okay, fine. Go on, some more questions.

Yeah, the question is, is it necessary for men to become first devotee, you know, to enter into this state? —vanāśrama system, or it is not necessary? In Kali-yuga, of course.

What do you mean by that?

It means that should someone become devoted first to become real Brahman or Vaishnava or Kṛṣṇa devotee?

Vanāśrama means where everyone is a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. You can't have vanāśrama without devotion to Kṛṣṇa. We follow the Daiva vanāśrama. Daiva vanāśrama means Regardless of whether you are Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya, Sudra, Krishna is the focal point. It doesn't mean that because I'm a Sudra, I don't recognize Krishna as the Supreme. It doesn't mean that because I'm a Vaishya, I think sense enjoyment is the goal. So Krishna has to be the focal point, central point in all situations. Actually, yeah.

It really stands. There were some people who worshiped —on the Lord Śrīla, did they belong to Vāṇaśrama system also?

Yes, everyone belonged to. I thought I'll speak to you a little bit about the point of similarity between Christianity and Kṛṣṇa consciousness, because many of you have gone on book distribution and many of you get suggestions from— get your relatives and all to bring up these points to you. So you should know the answers. In the Aquarian Gospel, and Prabhupada used to quote from Aquarian Gospel very often, it is said how Jesus Christ had gone to the Jagannath Puri Temple in India for training in Brahminical work. Of course, the Bhagavad Gita is the oldest scripture available to mankind. It was first spoken on this earthly planet 2 million years 5,000 years ago. Now there are many points— the Bible of course was compiled much later, but there are many points that the Bible states which are borrowed exactly out of the Vedic texts. One point the Bible states, man is made in God's image. So what does this mean? God has a form. Last year when I was visiting your country, I studied the Kremlin in Moscow very thoroughly. I went to all the churches in the Kremlin complex and I was studying each of them. The Kremlin temple church— what was the Kremlin? It was a church before. If you read and if you see inside, they have very nicely painted Jesus Christ's Leela and the Leela of Jesus Christ devotees. So the Bible establishes that God is a person. This is important because the acceptance of God as a person is superior to thinking God to be impersonal. I will give you some stories from the Shastras which explain how one who has firm faith in God, he accepts God to be unlimited and capable of doing anything. Another point that the Bible talks about is the concept of reward and punishment, heaven and hell. The concept of reward and punishment, or heaven or hell, is common in all the religious texts. If you act properly, you are rewarded. If you act improperly, you are punished. In other words, the Bible is also encouraging surrender to the words of God. The key point in our philosophy, besides that God is a person, is that the soul is eternal, isn't it? Krishna begins his teachings of Bhagavad-gītā with Philosophy of the Dusha. So Bible says, "What shall I do if thou gainest the whole world, but suffer the loss of your eternal soul?" So the Bible is saying you may become the king of the whole world, but if you have lost your Dusha, then what have you gained? Nothing. So the Bible clearly acknowledges that the soul will not die. The Bible acknowledges that the soul is eternal and only the body will die with the passage of time. Only the body will die. Once you have said that the soul is eternal, then you will act intelligently. The karmis don't believe that the soul is eternal. They think everything will end with the end of this body. Therefore they engage in so many sinful acts. The devotee has the vision of eternity. So This is another point common. Then the Bible says, thou shall always chant the names of the Lord. Bhagavad Gita says, satatam kesayanto mam, always chant my glories. Why does the Bible say thou shall always chant the names of the Lord? Because it acknowledges the names of the Lord to be non-different from the Lord. The modern-day priests don't do rosaries for long, but the priests in the olden days, they used to do rosaries. Nearly 24 hours. The Bible also encourages celibacy. Therefore, the priests and the nuns are not allowed to get married. So the Vedas also encourage celibacy for spiritual advancement. So actually, there are many points, and there are a lot of references in the Bible to vegetarian diet. The, the Bible is against contraception. The Bible is against abortion. So Krishna says in Bhagavad Gita, I am sex life which is not contrary to religious principles. So I'm not saying now instead of reading the Gita you can read the Bible, it's the same thing. The Bhagavad Gita is definitely the most powerful scripture on this planet. I just gave you these points in brief so that if when people meet you on the streets and they ask you these questions, you know how to Tell them that the Gita contains everything the Bible contains plus more. Just like a 100 ruble note. A 100 ruble note contains everything that 10 rubles contains plus 90 rubles extra. 3 questions and then I have to stop. Okay, because I only eat once a day. No breakfast, no dinner, just one meal. So I have respect time.

Yeah, yeah. The Christian usually say that Jesus Christ said, you, you can come to, to God only for me, only through me. Yes, that's the question. Difficult question.

You tell them, what did Jesus Christ say? Did he say he was Son of God or no? Yes. So what Jesus Christ means when he says you can only come through me is You can only go to God through a devotee, or you can only go to God through the guru, because the guru is the son of God. So you cannot go to Bhagavan directly.

You know, there is a Trinity— God Father, God Son, and Holy Ghost. And how to understand the Holy Ghost?

I'm not an expert on the Bible. I was just trying to give you Some common points of philosophy, you understand.

Yeah. Some devotees, Chaitanya Mahāprabhu's ones and so on, but at the same time they go to the church sometimes, maybe. And how should we consider them? Are they on the right way or is there something wrong?

I have not heard of too many Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees going to the church. You can only go, of course there's no harm, But it is best to associate with devotees who are practicing the system of purification. You had a—

yeah, Christian usually said, uh, Jesus Christ said only through me because he was suffering for us and, you know, paid by his blood. And in your movement, we say nobody is suffering, you know.

Jesus Christ never really suffered because he was pure Son of God. He, he really never underwent the suffering. But Jesus Christ's suffering does not mean that we go on sinning. And Jesus Christ has taken a contract that he will suffer for us eternally. You have to stop sinning in order to develop love of God. So I think we'll stop now for half an hour or 1 hour, and then we'll start with kirtan and like Gita and all. Okay, should I stop now for devotees also? Hare Krishna.